Low-Level Laser Therapy (LLLT) for Tinnitus — Experiences (Dr. Wilden, etc.)

[bill 112]

This is not the issue. I want to know if I spend money wisely. Most of all I want to understand if LLLT can give relief.
I contacted the Lucky Laser manufacturer this weekend and I am waiting for an answer. So I am not sitting on my hands
Meanwhile I will continue reading about LLLT.

Reiner would it be possible for you to PM Lymebite as he cant pm you as your settings won't allow it.Thanks.

 

[Bobby B]

Yes a lot of people have T and H and perfect ears that's why the cause of it is not in the ears but somewhere else - like the brain

A lot of people have unbearable T due to stress ,anxiety allergies , blood pressure , medication jaw muscles or whatever the list is long

There are many causes to T and H and these aren't related to ear damage so all I am saying is that shining light on perfectly good ears isn't going to make any change if the cause is not ear damage

And he visited ENT and they ruled out ear damage with very thorough tests . How many of us got nerve damage tests up to 18khz ?

Even Bill wrote himself that he initially got T from unknown causes ! not loud noise or anything clearly damaging the inner ear where T shows up right away

 

[bill 112]

Yes a lot of people have T and H and perfect ears that's why the cause of it is not in the ears but somewhere else - like the brain

A lot of people have unbearable T due to stress ,anxiety allergies , blood pressure , medication jaw muscles or whatever the list is long

There are many causes to T and H and these aren't related to ear damage so all I am saying is that shining light on perfectly good ears isn't going to make any change if the cause is not ear damage

And he visited ENT and they ruled out ear damage with very thorough tests . How many of us got nerve damage tests up to 18khz ?

Even Bill wrote himself that he initially got T from unknown causes ! not loud noise or anything clearly damaging the inner ear where T shows up right away

I was diagnosed initially with bi-lateral idiopathic tinnitus in 2011.This Tinnitus did completely resolve within a year but the following year I went to a noisy place with earplugs and it came back badly!Hissing and a steady tone that stayed with me for nearly a month before the tone disappeared and all I was left with was a slight hiss.Fast forward two years and some dickhead fucked me over with an extremely high pitched noise resulting in HUGE T increase and Hyperacusis.Fast forward two years and my H was 80% better and my T was back to baseline.Then suddenly it got worse,maybe I was around too much noise Im not sure but it wasn't anything considered damagingly loud.My current symptoms are T and Noxacusis along with slight dysacusis(distortion).

Everything that made it worse was noise related,not stress or meds or any diseases just sound.So it is directly as a result of some inner ear pathology that just isn't measurable by hearing test standards,if my hearing is so perfect then why the distortion?

My hearing tests were very accurate upto 10,000hz after that it wasn't accurate at all,but more so a"can you hear that frequency?"and that was it.Not a great way of determining damage but it's not their fault as their equipment doesn't test accurately past 10,000hz.Yes I can hear to 18,000hz bi laterally but so can many other T and H sufferers which all points back to one thing,hidden hearing loss.

 

[lymebite]

which all points back to one thing,hidden hearing loss.

Here is an interesting study on hidden hearing loss and how audiometry can show perfect hearing yet all is not well:

http://gtr.rcuk.ac.uk/projects?ref=MR/L003589/1

Here is one quote:

"A large UK study found that one in seven adults aged 17-30 reported "great difficulty" hearing speech in noisy backgrounds, while only one in fifty had impaired sensitivity as measured by pure tone audiometry. Hidden loss leads to a reduction in quality of life, and is likely to be predictive of more severe hearing loss in old age. Hence, hidden hearing loss is a major public health issue, which demands a comprehensive investigation."

 

[Bobby B]

Ok got it hidden it is !

I always had issues hearing people in loud environments before so I can relate

Good luck wiht laser and hopefully you get improvements

 

[lymebite]

@Bobby B

Very interesting video with Dr. Hamblin of Harvard University, thanks for posting.

I have been reading this article on pulsed versus continuous LLLT, also by Dr. Hamblin:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2933784/

What pulse settings do you select for the Lucky Laser and how did you decide?

@FERNANDO GIL , you have mentioned in posts in this thread that you use the pulse setting also with the Lucky Laser. What settings do you use?

 

[Reinier]

Reiner would it be possible for you to PM Lymebite as he cant pm you as your settings won't allow it.Thanks.

Done. Later I will check my settings. I did not "block" anything.

 

[Bobby B]

For me I don't think it really matters I just use the lowest 1 hz - i tried 10hz and felt no difference.
Continuous gave me vertigo once I found the right angles on the 808. above 120mw.

There isn't much data on which frequency works best.

You don't want to use continuous with high settings as it may focus too much heat on one spot inside the cochlea where liquid may react to light and heat up, but I wanted to use more power to reach deeper on the 808 - the nerves and cells to reach are cast inside bones and flesh so I do 450mw inside or even 600mw pulsed and at 3 cm from the ear for one minute then take a break and I do it again, 3 cm distance makes the beam radius larger, gives better coverage and so I can crank up the power as less is focused on one spot.

Taking small breaks is the best, the issue is heat as long as it can cool in-between then I should be okay I would imagine.

I also don't have the patience to do hours and hours everyday at low power..a quick but powerful session is easier to do long term for me.
I work and commute long hours on week days so time is an issue.

I would think that the main issue with our lucky laser is the thin size of the tip of the probe so chances are high that we actually miss the important points to irradiate..

The laser used at Wilden has a much wider area

Make sure to stand up and check for vertigo at first. If you have vertigo reduce power.

 

[Mithrandir]

@Bobby B you're now an expert, open your own clinics



I'have just the home lux spa laser at 30mw...so I make 2 hours by day... I like the feel of warm in the ear, for the hyperacusis, I don't know if it's work or not...

 

[bill 112]

Done. Later I will check my settings. I did not "block" anything.

I didn't say you blocked anything only your settings weren't set to allow Private messages.Anyway I hope you find his info useful

 

[bill 112]

@Bobby B you're now an expert, open your own clinics



I'have just the home lux spa laser at 30mw...so I make 2 hours by day... I like the feel of warm in the ear, for the hyperacusis, I don't know if it's work or not...

If Bobby opened his own clinic I'd honestly be his patient

 

[lymebite]

For me I don't think it really matters I just use the lowest 1 hz - i tried 10hz and felt no difference.

For what it is worth, in the Prochazka study in Prague, both continuous and pulsed were used. The frequency of the pulsed laser light was 5 Hz.

http://www.rj-laser.com/english/laser_therapy_tinnitus.htm

 

[FERNANDO GIL]

@Bobby B

Very interesting video with Dr. Hamblin of Harvard University, thanks for posting.

I have been reading this article on pulsed versus continuous LLLT, also by Dr. Hamblin:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2933784/

What pulse settings do you select for the Lucky Laser and how did you decide?

@FERNANDO GIL , you have mentioned in posts in this thread that you use the pulse setting also with the Lucky Laser. What settings do you use?

808 / 600 Mw and 3 buses per seconf, behind the ear
but ver few time 10 minutes maximum

 

[Bobby B]

For what it is worth, in the Prochazka study in Prague, both continuous and pulsed were used. The frequency of the pulsed laser light was 5 Hz.

http://www.rj-laser.com/english/laser_therapy_tinnitus.htm

this is a bit of a weird study.. they wrote:

3. LLLT - Physiotherapy aimed at the initial organ of hearing:
There is no need to discuss necessary parameters of laser probes used.

For a study that goes over LLLT not sure why they want to hide the details on what what actually used, wavelegths, probe size etc.. also I don't see much info on the cause of T of these people in the study. And of course no tests on hearing changes.
They also did some neck manipulations and gave medication which could have had an effect if T was a TMJ/neck, nerve pressure or stress/other related cause etc..

 

[Mithrandir]

@FERNANDO GIL how did you kill your H ? Did you use laser ? Which one ? During a session at Anne's ? Thanks

 

[Philip83]

this is a bit of a weird study.. they wrote:

3. LLLT - Physiotherapy aimed at the initial organ of hearing:
There is no need to discuss necessary parameters of laser probes used.

For a study that goes over LLLT not sure why they want to hide the details on what what actually used, wavelegths, probe size etc.. also I don't see much info on the cause of T of these people in the study. And of course no tests on hearing changes.
They also did some neck manipulations and gave medication which could have had an effect if T was a TMJ/neck, nerve pressure or stress/other related cause etc..

Exactly my thoughts.. and, these people have a profit motive from getting good results.. I'm sorry, not very credible in my view..

 

[Bobby B]

@Philip83
Any improvements since the treatment at Harila ?

 

[Philip83]

@Philip83
Any improvements since the treatment at Harila ?

Unfortunately none.. whatsoever.. :/ However, I haven't done any hearing test since the treatment, but if anything I have to say my hearing feels worse atm.

In other news I've had a nasty spike going on for 2-3 weeks now. Really hope it's not permanent... so sick of this shit...

 

[Bobby B]

Spike due to what ? If I remember the treatment ended much before that ?
I am doing LLLT and get spikes here and there but hearing is getting better every week and h is gone
But I have been doing this for 5 months almost everyday so it's a super long and slow process I wonder how much only one week even at high power can achieve on its own

Even the spikes aren't as powerful as before but yes it's not silence for sure

 

[Bobby B]

I almost don't hear t over music anymore so the reactive part is cured - in a few weeks I plan on watching my first movie since I got t and h 6 months ago

 

[Philip83]

Spike due to what ? If I remember the treatment ended much before that ?
I am doing LLLT and get spikes here and there but hearing is getting better every week and h is gone
Even the spikes aren't as powerful as before but yes it's not silence for sure

I don't know what caused the spike. I was at a concert without my good earplugs about 3 weeks ago, and I think this might have something to do with it, although the spike "feels" very psychological to it's nature, and not as an actual increase in volume. As you probably know sometimes it can be really hard to make a clear distinction between the two. My guess is that it goes something like: I'm in a loud place and think it's not good for me (Not loud enough to actually be damaging, but still uncomfortable) -> I start to worry -> I start to think more about the T -> I start bringing it "up to the surface" in my everyday life again -> I start geting anxious about it -> H gets worse -> Long lasting spike is caused..

Two days ago for ex, I was basically back to baseline, then I had to do some audio mixing at work. Not loud, but just focusing on a mix for a few hours.. then the spike was back.

Yes, I did the treatment in the beginning of January. Are you self-medicating with a home-laser? Which one if so?

 

[Bobby B]

I use the lucky laser and a more powerful device sending polarized light - not laser but 600 to 1500nm combined beam with peak at 1000nm

Never went to any clinic just too far away from me and since it's a long process you still would need some kind of device at home unless you are as lucky as your uncle is !

How is he doing ? Perhaps you can try Zazzio as well
Also I have been protecting my ears very religiously these 5 months so that helps too if sound is your work that may be harder

 

[Philip83]

I use the lucky laser and a more powerful device sending polarized light - not laser but 600 to 1500nm combined beam with peak at 1000nm

Never went to any clinic just too far away from me and since it's a long process you still would need some kind of device at home unless you are as lucky as your uncle is !

How is he doing ? Perhaps you can try Zazzio as well
Also I have been protecting my ears very religiously these 5 months so that helps too if sound is your work that may be harder

Makes sense. May I ask your settings on the Lucky Laser and your treatment durations per session?

I don't talk to him that often, but I can check!

 

[Bobby B]

All the info is in this thread

450 mw pulsed for 10 min in the 808
20 minutes continuous on 650 that's the maximum the device has

Once a day and sometimes more on week ends

The other one can do 1800 mw ! I do 900mw and that gives me some ear pain already for a while but improvements later
The probe is larger though about 1 cm diameter

The improvements are really slow but more power does something for sure
I will do this for a year or two and see how far I can get in terms of hearing improvements s

 

[Philip83]

All the info is in this thread

450 mw pulsed for 10 min in the 808
20 minutes continuous on 650 that's the maximum the device has

Once a day and sometimes more on week ends

The other one can do 1800 mw ! I do 900mw and that gives me some ear pain already for a while but improvements later
The probe is larger though about 1 cm diameter

Ace, thanks a lot! Still considering getting the Lucky Laser. Did everything go smooth for you with the ordering? Did you have to pay custom-tax? Where do you live/where di you ship it? Thanks again.

 

[Bobby B]

I live in Japan was lucky wiht tax and yes came smoothly no issues
The other reasons why I got such device is due to the hearing loss prevention that LLLT can offer - fixing it may be hard but preventing is possible if you use it regularly regardless of results
There is one study on cochlear cells rescue right after acoustic Trauma this itself justifies the price to me

 

[Philip83]

I live in Japan was lucky wiht tax and yes came smoothly no issues
The other reasons why I got such device is due to the hearing loss prevention that LLLT can offer - fixing it may be hard but preventing is possible if you use it regularly regardless of results
There is one study on cochlear cells rescue right after acoustic Trauma this itself justifies the price to me

Alright, thanks again for your answer. I guess they do ship a lot of machines and they've been quite response when I've email them, so maybe they'll be able to help me out with a definite answer.

 

[Bobby B]

I haven't heard of any other treatment wiht no side effects that can rescue hair cells right after trauma so such device definitely has a place at home unless you plan on wearing ear protection everywhere at all times for the rest of your life and even then sometimes it's not enough as you noticed

 

[Reinier]

I didn't say you blocked anything only your settings weren't set to allow Private messages.

I am pretty sure this is rectified now.

 

[Philip83]

@Bobby B

According to Lulu at lucky laser they have one model with 808nm / 500mW + 650nm / 60mW and a stronger machine with 808nm / 900mW + 650nm / 120mW.

If I buy one, should I go for the stronger one, or are those ranges redundant?