Low-Level Laser Therapy (LLLT) for Tinnitus — Experiences (Dr. Wilden, etc.)

[bill 112]

Inside the ears yes

In this thread there is the protocol done by Anne in Norway

https://www.tinnitustalk.com/threads/low-level-laser-therapy-lllt-for-tinnitus-—-experiences-dr-wilden-etc.295/page-36#post-158425

So you can see that even though its "high power" compared to 30mw which is nothing, its actually much less than what Anne has been doing and she has been doing it for decades without problems so yes its safe at 500mw even for an hour and I only do 10 min.

Not sure why T spikes - most people who had improvement on LLLT mentioned spikes. Maybe new connections are made and the brain struggles with new signals not sure...
Many people on AM-101 reported the same story - T goes up for days or even weeks before going further down.

As I type this, my T has gone up again this evening and quite loudly in fact, but the sound is different, higher in pitch and very unstable, sort of left/right fluctuating ups and down as opposed to the constant hiss I had before so we'll see tomorrow after a nigh of sleep how it goes.

I don't expect this to be a smooth ride in terms of T but as long as there are changes, it means that something good is happening.

The best and most important part to judge is how does sound quality change and H - if H gets worse I would be worried but its getting better so does hearing range - I check the same music everyday and the generalfuzz slide and the small gaps seem to be filling in.

How bad is your hearing loss Bobby?
Also nobody can for 100% certain say if spikes are a"good"thing or not,it's all speculation as little is known.Its kinda like saying"well I go a little deaf for awhile but then I get better"Is that good or bad?Who knows so I agree with Reiners point here.

 

[Reinier]

I've just purchased mineI've had T since 2012(mild)and H since 2014 any hope of improvement?Any advice?

Perhaps you mentioned this in a earlier post, but I couldn't find it straight away.
What laser did you buy? Did you already start using it?

 

[Bobby B]

I had the same thing going on bro, my T went skyrocket for 3-4 days then it was like more silent than before the injections for 2 days before it spiked again for a day.

 

[Bobby B]

The T spikes on LLLT have been discussed in details also, look it up on this thread..basically most people who got results also reported spikes like Fernando Gil, Hansi Cross and others and this has been confirmed by both Wilden and Harila as normal symptoms of changes.

And same goes for the am-101 see quote above and many others .

When you do LLLT you don't judge T, you need to follow hearing range improvements and H decrease. T may go up and down but hearing and H is going to slowly get better if you do respond well.

 

[bill 112]

Perhaps you mentioned this in a earlier post, but I couldn't find it straight away.
What laser did you buy? Did you already start using it?

I purchased the Konftec laser but it hasn't arrived yet so I haven't used it yet.Theres a 90 day money back quarantee with this laser if your not happy with it so it's better than splashing out €2000 on the Lucky Laser for it not to work.

 

[Bobby B]

If you can hear fine up to 18khz and have no tinntius anymore not sure if using laser is going to help much - you seem to have ears in perfect condition

Some people have "brain" H with perfect ears

 

[Reinier]

I purchased the Konftec laser but it hasn't arrived yet so I haven't used it yet.

Yes, I liked the money back guaranty. But now I understand from @Bobby B that the power may not be enough?

In this thread there is the protocol done by Anne in Norway

https://www.tinnitustalk.com/threads/low-level-laser-therapy-lllt-for-tinnitus-—-experiences-dr-wilden-etc.295/page-36#post-158425

So you can see that even though its "high power" compared to 30mw which is nothing, its actually much less than what Anne has been doing and she has been doing it for decades without problems so yes its safe at 500mw even for an hour and I only do 10 min.

So at this moment I am confused as to what power output could work.
I also had a look at the Lucky laser. I think it is not so convenient to use. You need to hold the laser pointers all the time. The Konftec is much easer. You have your hands free and you don't notice you wear them.
I did see posts where people mentioned problems with the Konftec. (loosing power). But I am sure you read these too.
Konftec most likely will have solved these issues. And with normal warranty and money back guaranty it should not be a problem.
I started to read medical documents regarding LLLT.
I have read so many experiences on this forum already (both pro and con), but now I am getting closer to making a decision I am very interesting to read about your experiences.

 

[Bobby B]

with the lucky you don't have to hold it, you place it flat on a pillow higher so its stays at the right angle...maybe holding it lightly to changes angles from time to time
Without sufficient power the beam is not even going to pass skin and bones and have very little effect- don't waste your time and money either you do it right or forget about LLLT altogether that would be me advice.

Also with more power you don't have to spend so much time doing it everyday - its a one year treatment..especially if you are bit older (like me) healing takes a lot more time I think you already noticed

 

[Bobby B]

This is one reason why LLLT has a bad success rate - if it is not done right it has no effect at all ..

Enough power, correct beam coverage, good candidate

These low power laser toys are a scam. Yes they may seem cheap and convenient but its a waste of time

I did 80mw for weeks with zero effect at all - only when I cranked up power did I start to notice spikes and noticeable hearing improvements..and you also need to be a good candidate to start with..if your hearing is fine then it won't have any effect as well.

 

[Reinier]

only when I cranked up power did I start to notice spikes and noticeable hearing improvements

Although the beam is not focused there could be a level that is too high.
Before and if I decide to start I will read more (forum and medical documents) about what levels are save.
I don't want to add to the damage.

 

[ChrisH]

@bill 112--congratulations on being able to make a decision--not easy with our conditions! Could you tell us when the Konftec arrives and you have used it, which wavelength(s) you chose, and whether it is Continuous or Pulsed--can one choose? And of course keep us updated with any results--good luck!

 

[bill 112]

@bill 112--congratulations on being able to make a decision--not easy with our conditions! Could you tell us when the Konftec arrives and you have used it, which wavelength(s) you chose, and whether it is Continuous or Pulsed--can one choose? And of course keep us updated with any results--good luck!

Thanks Chris and yes I will keep everyone updated on any progress and the machines wavelengths features etc.
As from what I can read and after talking to a few fellow H sufferers who are currently useing this device or one similar it's only been positive reports back and NO side effects have been reported to me at least as of yet.Heres to hoping.

 

[bill 112]

If you can hear fine up to 18khz and have no tinntius anymore not sure if using laser is going to help much - you seem to have ears in perfect condition

Some people have "brain" H with perfect ears

Believe me I don't have Brain H,I experience excruciating burning pain in my ears and jaw from sound and I do have Tinnitus?Dont remember saying I no longer have Tinnitus?But anyway the fact that most of my hearing is fine gives me hope that this may aid in healing the inner ear as nothing has really died from what my hearing tests show,maybe just injured?Who knows.

 

[Bobby B]

Dr Zazzio protocol is 500mw for 15 minutes
Anne does 1 hour and more of other on the same day
They have been doing it for years
If it was unsafe we would have heard some stories by now

No one has to start wiht high dosages but at least you have the possibility to increase if the low dosage do nothing - which is why the doctor is using higher ones

With the cheap ones you loose precious healing time and you cannot increase power or change the angle

 

[bill 112]

Either way my laser is on its way.I purchased the model with two wavelengths,660 and 800 if I'm not mistaken but didn't see anything regarding it being a pulsed unit.And whose to say what healing time there is?I mean there are people out there who had H for 4 years only for it to get way better.We can't put a timeframe on something we don't even understand.

 

[bill 112]

Correction the wave lengths are 660 and 808

 

[Bobby B]

It's only 63 mw
I haven't read much stories of people getting results with these

Have you ?

We may not know of all the mechanisms of how it works but we do know the power required to pass through various tissues - I posted a recent study on that
The studies on nerve regeneration have proven that after some time it does not work well so the time factor plays a role here of course

I would not want to waste precious time after trauma but that's just me because I value my hearing

 

[lymebite]

My understanding is that the penetration capability of a laser through tissue and bone is a function of the wavelength, not the power. The power matters because dosage (joules) = power multiplied by minutes. With a higher power, you can achieve the same dosage in a shorter time period. Clinicians like higher power because it delivers a certain dosage of joules faster so they can treat patients more quickly. But for home use, it the patient is willing to tolerate a longer period of treatment, the same dosage can be achieved even at a lower power.

The table in the section "How Much Power is Enough?" at this link shows the amount of time required to deliver certain dosages at different levels of power:

http://www.coldlasers.org

So for example, if the goal is 50 joules, a 100 mW laser will accomplish that in 8 minutes. But a 5 mW laser (such as TinniTool) will take 20 times as long - or 2.7 hours. And a 1,000 mW laser could do it in only 50 seconds.

Of course, the big question is - what is the ideal amount of joules to deliver as dosage to the inner ear? I don't know the answer to that question. The various clinicians - Dr. Wilden, Anne Harila, Michael Zazzio - each have somewhat different approaches when it comes to dosage.

 

[Reinier]

The studies on nerve regeneration have proven that after some time it does not work well so the time factor plays a role here of course

This I can understand. Most if not all documents I read use LLLT right after injury. Than I read somewhere (Dr.Wilden? I could be mistaken), it can benefit years after injury. So I agree with @bill 112: there is so much not understood that it could work in my case 1 year post injury.

My understanding is that the penetration capability of a laser through tissue and bone is a function of the wavelength, not the power. The power matters because dosage (joules) = power multiplied by minutes. With a higher power, you can achieve the same dosage in a shorter time period. Clinicians like higher power because it delivers a certain dosage of joules faster so they can treat patients more quickly. But for home use, it the patient is willing to tolerate a longer period of treatment, the same dosage can be achieved even at a lower power.

This makes perfect sense to me.

 

[Bobby B]

My understanding is that the penetration capability of a laser through tissue and bone is a function of the wavelength, not the power. The power matters because dosage (joules) = power multiplied by minutes. With a higher power, you can achieve the same dosage in a shorter time period. Clinicians like higher power because it delivers a certain dosage of joules faster so they can treat patients more quickly. But for home use, it the patient is willing to tolerate a longer period of treatment, the same dosage can be achieved even at a lower power.
.

This simple time x power rule would work if your cochlea and nerves would be lying on a table - in practice you cannot replace power by time
Power controls how deep the light goes and how much it can go through various obstacles as per this very recent study
The longer wavelengths go deeper too

https://www.dovepress.com/near-infr...therapy-ef-peer-reviewed-fulltext-article-NDT

 

[Bobby B]

This study is very good it not only gives us a sense on how light has a hard time penetrating obstacles but gives a detailed list of the most up to date possible mechanisms why it works - this is a must read for anyone considering LLLT

As a side note : if they feel it safe to irradiate a human brain at those much higher dosages then I would imagine a cochlea to be also safe.

 

[Bobby B]

And regarding what the docs who offer this treatment for money say about healing time limits - do you really believe they would honestly say that LLLT does not work well if it is years after, and turn away potential patients because of this ?

LLLT is not a scam and Wilden seems to be a decent guy BUT we should also not fall on the other side of the spectrum and take his words as gospel and LLLT as a miracle cure that can revive dead and buried cells..

Based on the independent studies we have - the more you wait the less effective it is going to be so don't waste precious time with toys that don't work.

Maybe for chronic nerve inflammation time is not an issue ..

There is only a 1000 USD difference between the under-powered Konfec and the full power professional unit like the lucky - with pulse settings and two frequencies..if your ears don't deserve this money then you are not only wasting healing opportunity but your time and effort on these forums.

Or go to a clinic that has such more powerful equipment - that's the other option so that you can benefit from their experience if you are afraid of making damages.

 

[Bobby B]

there is also a video on this

 

[Bobby B]

In the above video they use a much larger "probe" so they need more power - in watts ! not mw. we don't need that much as we use much smaller probes inside the ear and the cochlea is smaller than the brain so we are getting decent power concentration - the lucky is only about 0.5mm in diameter but nevertheless, 500mw for 808 seems pretty in line with what clinics use and will get into tissues and not heat much if you pulse it and switch the angle constantly to cover a wide area around the cochlea

 

[bill 112]

@Bobby B
Believe me I don't want to waste time either,because like everyone here I do value my hearing,pretty sure everyone does wouldn't you agree?

I have and currently am in contact with people who have used LLLT at various timeframes after injury and using various devices,I know of one person who used a Tinnitool years after the injury and seen a 20% improvement in their Hyperacusis which begs the question,if these lasers are too"weak"then why the improvement?

Now here's my question,I developed T in 2011 that resolved.In 2012 it returned loud but faded back to a maybe 1/10 a month or two later.In 2014 I developed H and louder T because of a dumbass that two years later was 85% better and my T was basically non existent.In March of this year it suddenly became worse,unbearable H(pain)and louder reactive T that hasn't really improved.I have no recorded hearing loss and can personally hear upto 18000hz.I was tested from 0-8000hz with no loss recorded.In both ears there was a tiny dip at 3-4000hz of 5-10db so nothing.I was then tested from 0 to 18,000 for nerve loss and T matching.We increased in 100hz increments all the way to 18,000hz and I could hear every single frequency clearly but some with sensitivity.From 15,000hz to 18,000hz the volume did have to be increased but it was still heard clearly and volume is expected to be increased at these upper frequencies.So overall there is no real hearing loss to find.But yet I still have unbearable Noxacusis and T.So I'm asking what is my likely outcome regardless of what Laser I use,the way I see it is that seeing as my hearing is all there maybe a lot of cells are injured or damaged and maybe LLLT can aid in healing them?Maybe it's too late who knows but from the numerous people I've been in contact with this isn't necessarily the case as on average there was people seeing improvement up to 6 years post injury so who are we to put a timeframe on something that not even the experts can agree on.

 

[bill 112]

And also as far as my ears not deserving this money it's not a question of what I want to spend but a question of how much I have to spend which is basically nothing at this stage so price right now is a problem for me.

 

[Bobby B]

The money issue comment wasn't directed at you Bill - I think that for your perfect ears which everyone would die for here on this forum..LLLT isn't going to do much.

I think that a 15 dollars laser pointer is going to work as good as the konfec for you and be much cheaper too.

There isn't much fixing to do if its not broken.

Not sure what you mean by H - maybe it has a different cause. The kind of hearing loss that gives "unbearable" H would have to show up somehow on an audiogram.
I am sure the ENT's all told you the same thing and refused steroids for the same reason.

They tested nerve damage up to 18khz and could not find any damage you wrote it yourself so what kind of nerve damage are you trying to heal ? 20khz ? 30khz ?

 

[Reinier]

if your ears don't deserve this money then you are not only wasting healing opportunity but your time and effort on these forums.

This is not the issue. I want to know if I spend money wisely. Most of all I want to understand if LLLT can give relief.
I contacted the Lucky Laser manufacturer this weekend and I am waiting for an answer. So I am not sitting on my hands
Meanwhile I will continue reading about LLLT.

 

[lapidus]

I think that for your perfect ears which everyone would die for here on this forum..LLLT isn't going to do much.

A lot of people with T and H have "perfect hearing". Still doesn't mean there isn't any damage in the cochlea/auditory nerves/nerve fibers etc a.k.a hidden hearing loss.

Not sure what you mean by H - maybe it has a different cause. The kind of hearing loss that gives "unbearable" H would have to show up somehow on an audiogram.

Actually, according to Hyperacusis Research, a huge majority of hyperacusis patients have perfect hearing. I, just like Bill have perfect hearing according to audiograms but still got T and severe H.

 

[bill 112]

A lot of people with T and H have "perfect hearing". Still doesn't mean there isn't any damage in the cochlea/auditory nerves/nerve fibers etc a.k.a hidden hearing loss.



Actually, according to Hyperacusis Research, a huge majority of hyperacusis patients have perfect hearing. I, just like Bill have perfect hearing according to audiograms but still got T and severe H.

@Bobby B exactly what Lapidus said,he took the words straight out of my mouth.Just because you have T and H doesn't necessarily mean there has to be any measurable hearing loss,most here have no measurable hearing loss whatsoever,this is where hidden hearing loss comes into play.