Low-Level Laser Therapy (LLLT) for Tinnitus — Experiences (Dr. Wilden, etc.)

[bill 112]

maybe 50cm but loud and it was high frequency woman's voice must have it been around my damaged higher frequencies because I felt a sharp pain I don't feel that anymore for lower frequencies like man's voices
Anyway like Fernando wrote this is a several years plan so I may wear plugs in the office whenever there may be conversations if this is what it takes - I will do it until ears are stronger.

My ears feel much better now, each month is better and even T is usually softer than 2-3 months ago but it can still get loud at times

Improvements are so slow its hard to keep track..healing ears requires a lot of patience

Sorry to hear that Bobby but I hope it settles for you,it's the unexpected noises that have gotton me too.How do we avoid this though?Wear earplugs when we think things might get a bit loud?Its hard to predict these things.

 

[Bobby B]

Yes earplugs that's the only way for the time being
I have all kinds of plugs - some silicone one are quick to put in and block noise very well

 

[Zechariah]

Hi,

I did some sessions for LLLT. I did first 2 sessions 3 weeks ago in two consecutive days and another 2 sessions 2 weeks ago. So now I've done 4 sessions and the latest one was 2 weeks ago. 808nm laser power was pretty high so the session duration was short. Laser was aimed into ear canal.

At the moment I can't say I can feel any improvement in T or in my high frequency hearing where I have hearing loss ( above 12kHz). I'm not sure if I continue the treatment because it costs around 200 euros every time I do the trip and 2 treatments. I may be trying 4-5 consecutive treatments in a row at my summer vacation but at the moment this feels like a waste of time and money. If it worked i think I should feel at least something based on anecdotal evidence on this forum.

Laser specs and treatment time were the following:
- 808nm GaAlAr Laser 650mW power for 8mins per ear.
- 650nm Laser with ? mW power for 4mins per ear (4-5 J dosage per ear - someone should be able to calculate the power)

The nurse treating me said that she has had some number of tinnitus and hyperacusis patients. She told that some have gotten small relief and some significant relief but especially some hyperacusis patients have been almost 100% cured.

 

[Bobby B]

Good update - How long ago did you experience the hearing loss and T ?

In any case the treatment will take months before you can notice any improvements - a few sessions aren't going to do much but yes it's not a chronic tinnitus cure although it can make it softer

Definitely works well for H so you can expect something in this departments if this is your expectation

H is torture and a real disability I'm glad I have this behind me finally

Short sessions but powerful is the way to go IMO this will have to be done 3 - 4 times a week over 6 months then maybe you get results that you can feel

Healing nerves takes a very very long time

 

[bill 112]

H and distortion are my two biggest problems right now,ear nerve and head pain along with brain shocks etc.Reading this gives me real hope right now but Bobby when you had H did you just experience ear pain or were you sensitive to sound?Or both?

A lot of people here confuse H but it's true meaning is an increased sensitivity to sound or decreased tolerance of sound.H with ear pain has now been dubbed noxacusis to clear confusion between the two entities.Having random ear pain is NOT Hyperacusis something a lot of people don't understand and often confuse with H.

Can you elaborate on your symptoms pre LLLT so that I can see where I fit in with this treatment.Thanks again Bobby

 

[Bobby B]

Everything sounded extremely loud even though it wasn't

Even wiht ear protection

For me it was the brain cranking up the gain to the max especially the high frequencies due to high frequency signal loss

light switch sounded like very loud click slamming the ear

The gain was so much pushed towards high that I could not hear bass - even my one voice sounded tinny and high

I tried to crank up bass on my stereo but my brain could not process it even though bass is actually fine on the audiogram

I did not feel real physical pain but yes sound made the ear react like a normal ear would feel when hit with a very loud high pitched sound

 

[Zechariah]

Good update - How long ago did you experience the hearing loss and T ?

In any case the treatment will take months before you can notice any improvements - a few sessions aren't going to do much but yes it's not a chronic tinnitus cure although it can make it softer

Definitely works well for H so you can expect something in this departments if this is your expectation

H is torture and a real disability I'm glad I have this behind me finally

Short sessions but powerful is the way to go IMO this will have to be done 3 - 4 times a week over 6 months then maybe you get results that you can feel

Healing nerves takes a very very long time

Hi, I guess this message was meant for me? You can use the tagging like this @Bobby B or quote text that I get notification - otherwise the message may end up unnoticed.

I've had T and and high frequency hearing loss for 2 years now (onset was 9.5.2014). I'm only guessing how bad my hearing loss is because I haven't been able to take audiogram up to 16kHz.

Doing high power LLLT 3-4 times a week over 6 months is not possible for many ordinary people because of the treatments costs. If I did that 3 times for week over 6 months it would cost me around 19200 euros (including travel expenses) and this is only the direct expenses. I would lose a lot more because I couldn't work full time. If I could and/or was ready to spend this amount of money to T treatment - I would be already booking a trip to Bangkok for stem cell therapy.

And I could consider spending 19k for LLLT treament if I knew 100% that it would work but there really isn't any guarantees for that.

I've read some messages where people claim to notice difference after 3-4 treatments so that is in kind of conflict with the claim that it takes months but this is just a observation I have made.

 

[Bobby B]

@Zechariah

That's why we buy our own device and do it at home - but it has to be powerful enough that's why I suggest the lucky laser since it cost only 1600 usd but gives you up to 900mw at the 808nm frequency with a special wider optical tip designed to be used inside the ears - which is close to the 810nm that was used in those nerve regeneration studies

 

[Cityjohn]

Hi,

I did some sessions for LLLT. I did first 2 sessions 3 weeks ago in two consecutive days and another 2 sessions 2 weeks ago. So now I've done 4 sessions and the latest one was 2 weeks ago. 808nm laser power was pretty high so the session duration was short. Laser was aimed into ear canal.

At the moment I can't say I can feel any improvement in T or in my high frequency hearing where I have hearing loss ( above 12kHz). I'm not sure if I continue the treatment because it costs around 200 euros every time I do the trip and 2 treatments. I may be trying 4-5 consecutive treatments in a row at my summer vacation but at the moment this feels like a waste of time and money. If it worked i think I should feel at least something based on anecdotal evidence on this forum.

Laser specs and treatment time were the following:
- 808nm GaAlAr Laser 650mW power for 8mins per ear.
- 650nm Laser with ? mW power for 4mins per ear (4-5 J dosage per ear - someone should be able to calculate the power)

The nurse treating me said that she has had some number of tinnitus and hyperacusis patients. She told that some have gotten small relief and some significant relief but especially some hyperacusis patients have been almost 100% cured.

5 Joules / (4*60) s = 0.021 Watts = 21 mW.

If the treatment costs too much follow my thread on DIY LLLT, if you're handy or willing to follow my instructions once I get my parts then it should be easy for you to self treat.

Thank you for publishing the laser specs

 

[Bobby B]

Yes some people may be good and fast responder that's the best scenario like winning the lottery but that depends a lot on the person ..like for how long they had noise damage obviously the more acute cases are going to benefit a lot more ..still it takes months or a year that's what Wilden said and he has been doing it for years. on average people get a 20% improvement in hearing range but no one walks out tinnitus free since it does not cure chronic tinnitus only makes it softer again in the best scenario

What did the nurse say ? How many session did it take ?

And do you have H ?

 

[Zechariah]

@Bobby B Well yes, it seems that the smartest thing would be to buy lucky laser already now because if I do another 4 sessions I've already payed half of the price of lucky laser. I guess I have to consider how I will proceed. I just wish that I've had some changes after first 4 treatments. It would be much easier to spent 1600 USD to a laser device...

 

[bill 112]

Thanks @Bobby B thats exactly what I'm experiencing now!!

 

[Bobby B]

@Zechariah
what changes are you expecting ?
Improvements in H ?

 

[Zechariah]

@Zechariah
what changes are you expecting ?
Improvements in H ?

I have mild H but I don't mind it. Mostly I was after improvement in my high frequency hearing loss and as a result of improvement - softer T.

 

[bill 112]

Did you get the burning ears at all Bobby or any headaches?

 

[bill 112]

I'm seriously considering going to see Dr.Wilden but would it be recommended?I can't get an audiogram done anywhere in this country that tests up to 16,000hz but all I know is that I can hear up to 18,000hz bi laterally.I've been tested to 10,000hz with no loss recorded except for a 5-10db notch at 4000hz so literally nothing.Yaaay but it doesn't cure me from this dreaded H!This has been going on with me for 6 years now so what really is my prognosis?Is the fact that my hearing is still really good an indicator of big improvement?Or is the fact that it's been going on a long time now a bad sign?I know no one can answer this definitively but an educated opinion is much appreciated.

 

[Bobby B]

my opinion is that with such a perfect hearing Wilden is not going to be able to improve much

but ask him directly maybe he has other opinions

Hyperacusis is the easiest to cure because once the brain gets enough signal it will stop the needless amplification so not much is needed I guess ..even with bad hearing you can have some T but not H....but your case is very special..

 

[Mithrandir]

@Bobby B , in how many times your H gone away ? I'm in lux spa laser since 3 months no significant improvement for my H/ear pain in 3 months...

 

[Bobby B]

I think that a weak output device is not going to work
One guy went to a place where they do 650 mw for 8 minutes
Today I did 10,000mw (10w) pulsed but one minute only
If it's too weak it does not pass the skin and bones
That's my opinion

 

[Philip83]

I found an iOS app that seems to very accurately measure hearing, albeit only up to 8000Hz. For people that don't wanna go to an ENT overtime they wanna check their hearing, it looks like a good alternative though!

Check my post about it here:
https://www.tinnitustalk.com/threads/hearing-test-app.15432/

 

[Reinier]

One guy went to a place where they do 650 mw for 8 minutes
Today I did 10,000mw (10w) pulsed but one minute only
If it's too weak it does not pass the skin and bones

What I understand from reading the different documents is that more is not better and can even counteract effects in cells. In scientific documents there is still much discussion about power, time (doses), wavelength, coherent, non coherent, etc.... It is not yet understood how much is most efficient.
I understand that time times power equals dose. But is doses all important? I could understand that cells need time to "process" the extra energy input.
If you want to reach a dose in the shortest possible time you can increase the power. Perhaps not necessary the best way?

Perhaps a crude analogy: You could charge a car battery in the shortest possible time when you charge it with a very high current (energy). Except the battery most likely will get damaged by this high current. It just takes a minimal amount of time to charge the battery. This time is also used in the battery to convert electrical energy in chemical energy. The same with cells?

Most of all wavelength of the light source determines how deep the energy travels. I could understand wavelength alone is not enough. You need a minimum amount of power. Yet I would not be surprised if 650mW or even less with the correct wavelength, for an extended (debatable) time, can influence cells in or around the inner ear.
I am inclined to not seek what maximum power I can apply (when I own a LLLT device). I am just too scared to inflict damage in or around the inner ear.
As long as it is understood how much power is too much, one could experiment and use this forum to read and share experiences, both positive and not so positive.

 

[Bobby B]

I just did one minute to see what happens , then wait 2-3 days but I plan to do a bit more and more often.

I got results before with one minute also on my 900mw setting I know it works.
the place with the 10,000mw polarized light device (not laser) is 15 minutes walk from my home so I will do more short sessions just to see the results I get.

This place usually recommend only 1 minute because its enough they say - in general for pain or injuries etc.. not ears

My sense is that some of the nerves portions we are trying to heal are located deeper inside the skull and we may need more power to simply reach those.

I think that is what Hansi Cross was trying to say - with the low power home device there is only a certain minimal level of surface improvement you can get that's why some of the people went back to the Doc's which have more powerful and different wavelength devices.

With low power there is only a certain depth you can reach and a limited area of effect you can achieve, at some point you may need to reach deeper if not you won't get more results.

That is what the study says and they did good tests and serious thinking ! these guys are brain surgeons after all...

I got some results on 120 mw at first but the results were limited and not changing and at low power it takes weeks and weeks of doing it for longer time period which is really a pain and boring given the small results.

I got more results when I did 900mw 600 to 1500nm polarized light for 1-2 minutes twice a day during in a week only than doing months of two single frequencies laser at low power.

That totally erased my H and T went a notch quieter with better sound.

 

[Reinier]

@Bobby B
This 10 watts is apparently physically not too hot. Perhaps it gets too hot when applied longer than 1 minute?
This is a scattered beam with a relatively large area? Perhaps behind the ear?
Which wavelength(s) is this operating at?
Have you already noticed something happening?
With polarized light, do you mean non coherent? So a band of light instead of one wavelength?

Can I ask: you are also using the Lucky Laser? I am waiting for an answer from Lulu at Lucky Laser.
Did you buy the Lucky Laser from them?

I know a lot of questions, but I am on the verge of buying a Lucky laser, so information from a "user" is very welcome.

 

[Zechariah]

@Bobby B
This 10 watts is apparently physically not too hot. Perhaps it gets too hot when applied longer than 1 minute?
This is a scattered beam with a relatively large area? Perhaps behind the ear?
Which wavelength(s) is this operating at?
Have you already noticed something happening?
With polarized light, do you mean non coherent? So a band of light instead of one wavelength?

Can I ask: you are also using the Lucky Laser? I am waiting for an answer from Lulu at Lucky Laser.
Did you buy the Lucky Laser from them?

I know a lot of questions, but I am on the verge of buying a Lucky laser, so information from a "user" is very welcome.

You know that polarized light is just...light? You can build your own polarized light source easily. Just aim powerful flashlight through polarized sunglasses into your ear and you are good to go.

 

[bill 112]

What about the device I purchased?The power output is 808mw and from what I read that's more than enough,right?

 

[Bobby B]

This is the device I am using
Polarized light and near infrared wavelengths not a laser that gives only one wavelength
The power is higher but the probe is also wider about 1 cm diameter
The 10w model - which is a newer type not used in this study but the wavelengths are the same just gives a nice warm feeling at the ear , no vertigo .

http://www.rehab.research.va.gov/jour/06/43/4/Muneshige.html

Because it's not a laser there is more light scattered around which is what I am looking for and this gives less heat at one spot only

 

[Bobby B]

 

[Bobby B]

As you can see the peak is at 1000nm but you get all the wavelengths between 600 nm to 1500nm and Hamblin said that the best therapeutic effects are between 800 to 1200nm

 

[Bobby B]

I don't think it's as simple as lighting up the eardrum to reach all the nerves inside the ear - that's why Wilden uses a much larger probe wiht more light spread around and Zazzio as well.

They don't stick it inside the ear canal .

There is no reasons to believe that nerve damage is only limited to inside the cochlea and even then the cochlea isn't just straight behind the eardrum floating there , it's cast deeper inside the skull at a different angle and position and some of the nerves leading to the brain are much higher up

 

[Bobby B]