Low-Level Laser Therapy (LLLT) for Tinnitus — Experiences (Dr. Wilden, etc.)

[bill 112]

Not to mention the ear canal isn't exactly straight either,it curves a bit too making it a bit more difficult.But at the ear drum we have the little bones and directly behind them is the cochlea,but what I have noticed is that the cochlea sits higher than the eardrum,it's not sitting perfectly in line it's actually rises above the eardrum so that's another challenge in itself.Makes sense why Wilden would use the method he uses.

 

[Pumpkinate]

@Bobby B

What do you think of these relatively cheap higher powered devices such as:

http://www.pulselaserrelief.com.au/shop/PulsedLowLevelLaserTherapy

This one has a 25W output and you can get it with a probe set but none are made for in-ear use.

 

[Bobby B]

@Pumpkinate
I think that this is a great device on paper - and for the price...if its really 25w on 905nm and a wide probe then yes - may be a bit too hot on the skin surface but you can take breaks and it has pulse so yes very good find.

They don't provide much info and I don't see the power specs for the 2 others frequencies. I found it strange that it has both LED and such a powerful laser on the same tip..I suspect the product may be in reality a bit different than what they claim though. Perhaps the person who wrote the English description has not understood the specs of the product.

25w at 905nm will produces some heat, I do 10w with peak 1000nm and you feel the heat but its not burning heat more like a hot towel put on the skin.
But the probe I use is 1cm diameter maybe because this one has even a wider probe the heat is not concentrated.

 

[Bobby B]

• Average power: Total radiation: 60-90 mW
• Laser radiation: 0.4-1.4 mW
• Infrared radiation: 30-90 mW
• Red LEDs radiation: 2-10 mW
• Permanent magnet induction: 25-45 mT
• Wavelength of: Laser radiation: 905 nm
• Infrared radiation: 857 nm
• Red LEDs radiation: 635 nm
• Laser Power: 25 W
• Maximum pulsation laser power: 14 W
• Laser class IM (IEC 60825-1
• Supply ratings: 13.5 VDC; max. 0.7A

http://www.ebay.com/itm/HANDY-CURE-...721003?hash=item33b62ccb2b:g:Cf8AAOSwuTxV~4t5

this seems to use a real pulsating laser where the average power is in mw but there is a very short pulse at much higher power at first which is where they base their specs but ..it may be very short.
If they say this does not produce any heat at all then It means that the 14w pulse is very short..not sure could still work or not..maybe just a nanosecond at 14w then the rest is very low power which sounds a bit scammy to call this a 25w light device
I think they cannot sell a real 25w laser device without hitting some legal restrictions anyway, so In practice you get very low laser power with maybe a very short pulse at some higher power for a nanosecond for them to claim high power

Which means that you would have to stick this to your ear the whole day just to get one second of 14w power...

 

[Ecip]

I wonder if anyone has the proper laser anywhere here in Alberta.

 

[felinefine]

I haven't been so active on here.

update with the laser: seeing improvements. My tinnitus has spikes when I do a session, but it then equilizes to its normal level before lessening in volume. The type of noise has also changed to be less intrusive.I'm hopeful these ear issues will eventually go.

Another issue I still deal with is the eustacian tube issue, though this is partly I believe due to me messing with moving my eustacian tubes all the time and popping my ears because of some OCD issue...I'm guessing. I still have that fullness, and the right ear feels like the eustacian tube is stretched out.

Also, I'm looking into making my own laser. At my job, I am opening an online health store. So we would possibly have the capacity to carry lasers. It would be nice to have a laser that is accessible here in the states. I love my Lucky Laser, but it would be nice to have other less expensive options, or even a laser that was easier to travel with. If anyone has any advice, I'm all ears

 

[Bobby B]

cool - good to hear you "hear" improvements...can you update us on how long you have been using the device, how often and which frequencies /power settings for how many minutes ?
And do you stick it inside the ear canal ?

 

[Pumpkinate]

• Average power: Total radiation: 60-90 mW
• Laser radiation: 0.4-1.4 mW
• Infrared radiation: 30-90 mW
• Red LEDs radiation: 2-10 mW
• Permanent magnet induction: 25-45 mT
• Wavelength of: Laser radiation: 905 nm
• Infrared radiation: 857 nm
• Red LEDs radiation: 635 nm
• Laser Power: 25 W
• Maximum pulsation laser power: 14 W
• Laser class IM (IEC 60825-1
• Supply ratings: 13.5 VDC; max. 0.7A

http://www.ebay.com/itm/HANDY-CURE-...721003?hash=item33b62ccb2b:g:Cf8AAOSwuTxV~4t5

this seems to use a real pulsating laser where the average power is in mw but there is a very short pulse at much higher power at first which is where they base their specs but ..it may be very short.
If they say this does not produce any heat at all then It means that the 14w pulse is very short..not sure could still work or not..maybe just a nanosecond at 14w then the rest is very low power which sounds a bit scammy to call this a 25w light device
I think they cannot sell a real 25w laser device without hitting some legal restrictions anyway, so In practice you get very low laser power with maybe a very short pulse at some higher power for a nanosecond for them to claim high power

Which means that you would have to stick this to your ear the whole day just to get one second of 14w power...

Thanks, I thought they looked a bit suspicious with the claimed power output, particularly when they also claim the battery lasts for hours. I looked up the stats on another similar unit and the pulse width was listed as 100ns, so in truth very short!

 

[Pumpkinate]

If anyone is interested in DIY you can get high output IR (eg 850 or 940nm) LED chips such as this:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1w-3W-5W-10...hash=item3cfa5ecabb:m:mvLk0nMum89PMJt6ENXUemg

Add a LED driver and a heatsink and you have a high output source which you can pulse if you want too.

 

[Bobby B]

LED give good power now, for the price but the light may be too scattered to be effective..this is only a LED array I would think you still need some optics added up to tighten up the beam into something that goes straight into where its pointed at.

And they simply add more LED to add more power so the power/cm2 stays the same more or less..but a 5w unit looks good for the price we need to see what kind of beam it gives out... and at 904nm you don't see much

This is where lasers have an edge over LED - not price per power but a usable directional light beam

I would say the lucky laser still has plenty of power on 808nm in fact 600mw is already quite warm even pulsed so I don't think you can do 900 mw wihtout too much heat - that's for lasers as all the energy goes out in one direction.

As a home device the lucky is still very good - proven to work out of the box to cure Hyperacusis due to inner ear nerve inflammation and resulting reactive T at home -unless you really don't have the 1600 USD or you doubt its going to help then spending time building some DIY unit is another option.

 

[linearb]

lucky is still very good - proven to work out of the box to cure Hyperacusis due to inner ear nerve inflammation and resulting reactive T

[citation needed]

 

[Bobby B]

I meant treat - may not work for everyone just like with any treatment (am101 comes into my mind ..)but some may benefit and some may be even cured..maybe if the treatment was done early on after trauma perhaps that's one factor.

As for me yes it cured me from H and reactive T but not baseline T although the constant sound seems to be getting slowly less and less intrusive ...but changes are slow and there are ups and down. Maybe 50% to 75% less than at first depending

There also is a possibility that the effect of phototherapy only remains as long as you use it - many reported a drop of T on steroids but T came back after stopping it..I even read one post of a guy in the am 101 thread who got completely "cured" of his T but it came back a few weeks later so maybe light has the same effect..a temporary anti-inflammation or other beneficial effect but at least there are no side effects and running costs so if this is what it takes I am ready to use it for a few more years on a regular basis.

 

[Pumpkinate]

The LED arrays are additive to some extent because the radiation field from each chip overlaps to a large extent. I decided against the Ebay Chinese ones though because they are very low efficiency (and of questionable wavelength too no doubt).

I'm going to try some quality high output ones in 940nm and 850nm from Osram, I am confident to surpass the irradiance levels at the cochlea of the available laser units, and I won't need to worry about exact positioning/alignment either.

I'll let you know how it goes!

 

[Bobby B]

What do you mean by efficiency ? The amount of power they use vs the light output isn't an issue for us we won't keep it on for hours... power cost is not much

The main purpose of these is for surveillance etc where it's on all the time and effiency and power consumption becomes a factor

Even the wavelength - as long as it's somewhere between 800 to 1200nm it will work fine does not have to be some precise number either, it's just photons anyway as long as they can get in there

 

[Pumpkinate]

I'm not worried about power consumption, I mean a LED chip being sold with an efficiency of 7% is not a good reflection on its quality.

 

[Bobby B]

What's the efficiency % of the other ones ? And the price ?
Sure you get what you pay for but in this setup it's not going to be used long enough to make quality a big issue
At these power levels a few minutes a day should be enough

 

[Bobby B]

I ordered the 5 watts..will give this a try to see what we can get out of it

 

[bill 112]

I purchased the Konftec laser with 808nm lasers.So far I don't really know what it's doing if anything?I use it for 40 minutes everyday without fail but I'm beginning to question its strength?Its makes my ears kinda warm but it doesn't feel all that powerful although apparently it's more than enough.As for it reaching the inner ear I do believe it does,sometimes during treatment I can hear my T go crazy high and then crazy low.Also and I don't know why but it makes my eyes twitch and spasm during treatment,maybe because the ear nerve is connected to the facial nerve?Its bizarre and not all in my mind,the laser does genuinely have an effect on my facial nerve.

 

[Pumpkinate]

This is what I'm going for:

http://docs-asia.electrocomponents.com/webdocs/11b1/0900766b811b1e33.pdf

I'm getting one each of the highest output 90deg angle units in 940 and 850nm. These produce around 26 and 21 watts actual radiant intensity output. The reason that I'm going DIY is not to save money but because I want high output and I want to know exactly what my output is going to be in reality. These are quality units.

I'll let you know how it goes!

 

[bill 112]

When should we expect results from LLLT?Like how long into treatment should we see improvements?Anyone know?

 

[Bobby B]

26 w is a lot - how much do they cost ?

 

[lymebite]

The lucky laser has pulsed settings

You can vary from 1 hz to slower (1 second on one off is the slowest pulsed )

@Bobby B, I am still trying to figure out what pulse setting to select. My Lucky Laser settings go from 1 Hz to 100 Hz. Do we think it matters much to choose say 1 Hz versus 5 Hz versus 100 Hz, etc.? Or, do you think ANY pulse setting between 1 Hz and 100 Hz is better than continous wave?

@Philip83, when you did your week in Norway, do you know if your sessions with the Lucky Laser were with continuous or with a particular pulse setting?

@Cityjohn, with the devices you are building, what are your plans / thoughts / advice with respect to the most optimal pulse rates?

Thanks all!

 

[Philip83]

@Bobby B, I am still trying to figure out what pulse setting to select. My Lucky Laser settings go from 1 Hz to 100 Hz. Do we think it matters much to choose say 1 Hz versus 5 Hz versus 100 Hz, etc.? Or, do you think ANY pulse setting between 1 Hz and 100 Hz is better than continous wave?

@Philip83, when you did your week in Norway, do you know if your sessions with the Lucky Laser were with continuous or with a particular pulse setting?

@Cityjohn, with the devices you are building, what are your plans / thoughts / advice with respect to the most optimal pulse rates?

Thanks all!

These are all interesting questions that I'd also like answers to, as I'm just about to order the Lucky Laser. To be honest, I do not know what pulse frequency(ies) that were used during my treatment.

 

[Bobby B]

I really don't think it makes any difference I just use 1 HZ works fine and crank up the power to 450 mw on the 808 and 120mw on 650 - for 650nm I use continuous as its already weak enough

 

[lymebite]

I have been trying to figure this out. From reading, I gather that each pulse delivers a specific amount of energy. So if the pulse rate is set at 100 Hz, it delivers twice as many joules per second as if it were set at 50 Hz and 100 times as many joules per second as if it were set at 1 Hz. So if I am understanding this correctly, deciding on a pulse rate would make a material difference in the dosage.

@Bobby B or @Cityjohn, am I getting this right? Or missing it?

I cannot find the power output per pulse for the Lucky Laser in any of the technical specifications, but I have emailed Lulu to ask.

 

[Cityjohn]

[USER=16343]@Cityjohn, with the devices you are building, what are your plans / thoughts / advice with respect to the most optimal pulse rates?

Thanks all![/USER]

[QUOTE="lymebite, post: 183823, member: 12227"][USER=12444]@Bobby B or @Cityjohn, am I getting this right? Or missing it?[/QUOTE]

As far as I have heard the objective of pulsing is to get the as much light to the spot you need it without heating the tissue in front of that location. The theory goes that if you pulse it, but set it to a more powerful setting it gives your tissue time to convect and radiate the heat away. But this doesn't make much sense to me because with the light on the skin still has this ability.
I didn't see the point of thinking about it because my damage is located exactly around the round window (16khz) so it's easy to reach with a constant laser beam. The total distance I have to go is a maximum of 0.5-1.0 centimeters.

But now that I have thought about it for a minute; from a physical standpoint I fail to see how pulsing would increase your total energy delivery. I'm quite sure that if you were to measure it with a spectrograph the exact same amount of light would pass per second if you double the power, and then half the total time per second.

It's kinda like this, it doesn't really matter whether a lightbulb is 50hz or 100hz, if it's 100W it will give off 100 Joules per second either way. I'm not the best person to ask in this case, consumer equipment often uses ambiguous ways to operate. To figure out how the Lucky Laser works you'd need to know how long the pulses really are.

If it says that every pulse delivers a specific amount of energy then the more pulses you use the more energy you deliver. If that is not true the pulses are bullshit.
A way to test this is by setting it to 1Hz, if that is a continuous beam instead of a predetermined dose, that would mean that 1hz is 100% power, and all other settings are pretty much 50% power or they named continuous 1Hz, and then set all the others to a dose related setting.
There's really no way to tell unless you hook it up to an oscilloscope.

Let me guess, the thing comes with a Chinese manual [/USER]

 

[AAM]

I came across these two sites:

http://www.laserannals.com/2012/03/11/is-laser-therapy-a-useful-tool-for-treating-tinnitus/

http://www.laser.nu/tlc/

Probably been posted before.

 

[Pumpkinate]

26 w is a lot - how much do they cost ?

Sorry, I've been sick with a cold. These chips are around US$150 each. I just built a headset with a chip on each side and heatsink. I added a flasher circuit so that I can have them cycle on and off at whatever frequency. They put out a lot of IR! You instantly feel a huge amount of heat, not just on the external ear but deeper too. They rapidly make my ear discomfort (a kind of pressured feeling like I've got an ear plug rammed deep inside) worse. The day following my first use the tinnitus was noticeably worse too. I hope this is a good sign, well at least they seem to be doing something.

 

[Philip83]

Sorry, I've been sick with a cold. These chips are around US$150 each. I just built a headset with a chip on each side and heatsink. I added a flasher circuit so that I can have them cycle on and off at whatever frequency. They put out a lot of IR! You instantly feel a huge amount of heat, not just on the external ear but deeper too. They rapidly make my ear discomfort (a kind of pressured feeling like I've got an ear plug rammed deep inside) worse. The day following my first use the tinnitus was noticeably worse too. I hope this is a good sign, well at least they seem to be doing something.

Maybe you'll be able to tweak it and get super good results, then you could start producing these and sell them on the forum, making a fortune

 

[Pumpkinate]

For anyone interested, I attached each LED chip to a heatsink:





I drilled a hole in a cheap pair of earmuffs:



And attached the heatsink to the earmuff:



The finished unit (note that the electronics box didn't need to be that big, it's just what I had available):