Low-Level Laser Therapy (LLLT) for Tinnitus — Experiences (Dr. Wilden, etc.)

[Zechariah]

Good find ! This is a very recent study - which closes the debate on wavelengths since 808nm penetrates well and worked fine here and they could have used any other wavelengths but 808 penetrates deep enough to do the trick .

Was there even a real debate? 808nm for deeper penetration and ~650nm for treating the front parts of the cochlear.

Btw, how are your audiograms from 2, 3 and 6 months coming up? If there is an improvement - many here would be interested to seeing them. - For some reason I feel that we are not going to see the audiograms. You seem to be dodging a lot of key questions.

For some reason you seem to promoting people to build their own "high power LED". Why even bother to build. You can buy LED lamp from about every super market - In case you happen to believe that normal light heals your ear.

I'd also like to see some sort of evidence that pointing a flashlight and/or microwaving your body parts heals tissues or organs deep beneath the skin and/or bone. - This is a reference to your polarized light treatment which you are doing in some clinic which you wouldn't tell to some members who asked it.

If you want to discuss about polarized light treatment - please start a new thread. This is about LLLT.

Can you help me compare the Lucky Laser and the Konftec ?
So
@650nm :
Lucky = 120mW
Konftec = 50mW

@808nm :
Lucky = 900mW
Konftec = 90mW

If you want the best results possible, go for Lucky Laser. Konftecs lasers are too low power.

Does this imply Placebo effect?

No it didn't, there was no placebo rat group - I'm not even sure if there is any placebo control done with rodent studies. I think it is safe to assume that rats aren't prone to placebo effects as humans are...

 

[RaZaH]

Polarized light treatment is what the "highly successful" Antinitus sticker "technology " uses to great effect to alleviate built up pressure in your wallet.

 

[Tom Cnyc]

Does this imply Placebo effect?

hard to say. doesn't say how it's measured.

 

[Tom Cnyc]

It is a point of attention. In the investigation below they also seem to use the Konftec laser (it looks like one) but replaced the standard ear buds with a personalised imprints of the ear canal and guided the light with fiber. See page 3 for a picture. Not totally sure though it is a Konftec as these are 660nm and in the investigation it is 650nm. Maybe somebody can correct me by telling which brand it is....

https://bib.irb.hr/datoteka/739932.LOW_LEVEL_LASER_THERAPY_LLLT_FOR_CHRONIC_TINNITUS.pdf

It's a "Bontech" if you read the article / check the image http://www.bontech.hr/en/tinnitus-therapy-at-half-the-price/

 

[Bobby B]

Again I think that the easiest way is to get one of those 850nm LED high power near IR lamps for surveillance - I posted a link in the other thread - one cost only 7 dollars , and give it a try .

808 is the wavelength used in the study but anything close will work fine too.

Polarized light like I explained earlier in this thread is a device that uses a high power 140w IR bulb as a light source then places a series of filters to narrow the beam to 600nm to 1500nm , with total power at 10w, with peak power at around 1000 nm, light penetrates deep and the probe is about 1 cm wide so you are sure to cover the cochlea.

Anne Harila told me she got good results by using various different wavelengths on the same person so this is in essence the same thing for LLLT except it's not a laser and not a single wavelength...and it's not low power!

I feel I got some improvements with it but im not done yet. T is not cured but it does sound a bit softer , H is cured and sound quality is better .

I did another audiogram a week ago but it did not show major changes from before at least in the under 8khz range.

My T is a high pitched hiss so the major damage is above 8khz but I haven't found any place that can do those tests here in Japan .

Any way , I keep on doing this polarized device twice a week and use the lucky a few times a week and we will see - or hear - in 2 years if I get any further improvements as it can take 3-4 years according to Wilden and also according to that LLLT study from Czechoslovakia.

I got my a acoustic trauma 1 year ago but obviously various noise damage was done during decades before especially when I was in the army back then so that's another factor to consider . I think that a young person will have better success with light therapy .

 

[VRZ78]

Bobby B does the Lucky Laser also comes with ear buds and is it easy to place it right when you do it alone ?

Thanks

 

[Reinier]

I'm not even sure if there is any placebo control done with rodent studies. I think it is safe to assume that rats aren't prone to placebo effects as humans are...

Agree.
I still am reluctant to accept the exceptional effects of LLLT.
Even after reading the numerous positive outcomes.
I want too though!
I just can not understand that these positive outcomes do not make the medical community revise their opinion on LLLT.
Or at least make them curious.
Only a very small group of researchers. LLLT has been around for many years.

But this is a discussion that has been made often in the past, on this forum.

Any way , I keep on doing this polarized device twice a week and use the lucky a few times a week and we will see - or hear - in 2 years if I get any further improvements as it can take 3-4 years according to Wilden and also according to that LLLT study from Czechoslovakia.

These are the time frames I am thinking about too. So why am I not patient and still expect results sooner

 

[VRZ78]

And did you have improvement when you were using just the Lucky Laser ?

 

[Reinier]

And did you have improvement when you were using just the Lucky Laser ?

Did you ask me?
There is no way of knowing for sure.
There is a small improvement, but I believe this also would have happened without the LLLT.
There is still much discomfort. Hypracusis, distortion, Tinnitus and hard of hearing.
I am pretty sure no improvement what soever on an audiogram.
But that has to be confirmed. Because I do not notice any better hearing I am not interested in checking this.
I mostly use the LLLT for relaxation. It is a 20 minute brake in the day.

 

[VRZ78]

Did you ask me?
Thereit s no way of knowing for sure.
There is a small improvement, but I believe this also would have happened without the LLLT.
There is still much discomfort. Hypracusis, distortion, Tinnitus and hard of hearing.
I am pretty sure no improvement what soever on an audiogram.
But that has to be confirmed. Because I do not notice any better hearing I am not interested in checking this.
I mostly use the LLLT for relaxation. It is a 20 minute brake in the day.

I was asking Bobby but good to know how you're doing too

Is it easy and conformable to insert the laser in the ear ?

 

[Bobby B]

Those studies show that light has an effect shortly after trauma - don't wait !
we don't know how well it works once too much time has passed

Yes I got some sound range, and H improvements when I was using only the lucky so I know it does something. The other device I mentioned is more powerful and I felt I got faster results but the lucky is a viable device...especially with the 808nm at higher power

 

[VRZ78]

Thanks for your reply.

My T most likely comes from an infection or reaction to meds (it got a lot worse when I took corticosteroids which are immunosuppressive). I don't have hearing loss however I have reactive T and a lot of distortions. I have also H in a sense that some frequencies are perceived very loudly. Do you think it can help for my distorsion and H? I wouldn't mind the T if a could listen to some music or watch movie in peace.

 

[VRZ78]

Did you build the other device or did you buy it ?

 

[Reinier]

Is it easy and conformable to insert the laser in the ear ?

Initially I needed to fabricate something so I was able to lie down when using it. Now it is quite comfortable.
But I am always very careful.

Those studies show that light has an effect shortly after trauma - don't wait !
we don't know how well it works once too much time has passed

Dr. Wilden claims that years after noise trauma you can get improvement, if I am not mistaken.

 

[Bobby B]

yes but the longer you wait, the smaller the improvement will be

 

[Reinier]

yes but the longer you wait, the smaller the improvement will be

I can understand that. It makes sense.
But dr Wilden does give me some hope (-;

 

[Tom Cnyc]

I'm considering seeing John Lieurance in Sarasota - he follows the Amon Kaiser protocol.

I spoke with him yesterday. He doesn't oversell it. He says they've seen some good results, moreso with hearing thresholds than tinnitus, but tinnitus reduction is reported. A lot of what he says is in line with @Bobby B anecdotal reports as well as @attheedgeofscience .

I have reasonable expectations and don't expect a miracle - but I can afford it and spending a week with my wife on the bay won't be such a bad thing.

 

[Zechariah]

Again I think that the easiest way is to get one of those 850nm LED high power near IR lamps for surveillance - I posted a link in the other thread - one cost only 7 dollars , and give it a try .

808 is the wavelength used in the study but anything close will work fine too.

Polarized light like I explained earlier in this thread is a device that uses a high power 140w IR bulb as a light source then places a series of filters to narrow the beam to 600nm to 1500nm , with total power at 10w, with peak power at around 1000 nm, light penetrates deep and the probe is about 1 cm wide so you are sure to cover the cochlea.

Anne Harila told me she got good results by using various different wavelengths on the same person so this is in essence the same thing for LLLT except it's not a laser and not a single wavelength...and it's not low power!

I feel I got some improvements with it but im not done yet. T is not cured but it does sound a bit softer , H is cured and sound quality is better .

I did another audiogram a week ago but it did not show major changes from before at least in the under 8khz range.

My T is a high pitched hiss so the major damage is above 8khz but I haven't found any place that can do those tests here in Japan .

Any way , I keep on doing this polarized device twice a week and use the lucky a few times a week and we will see - or hear - in 2 years if I get any further improvements as it can take 3-4 years according to Wilden and also according to that LLLT study from Czechoslovakia.

I got my a acoustic trauma 1 year ago but obviously various noise damage was done during decades before especially when I was in the army back then so that's another factor to consider . I think that a young person will have better success with light therapy .

Dude, you can't compare laser and light like that. Do you even realize that this "infrared" you are talking about is pretty much only thermal radiation? Basically you are stating that heating up your inner ear will heal T, H and hearing loss. You really need to get yourself educated...

And in case you didn't know - most of the LLLT therapists are using different wave lengths but they have no absolute value alone - the penetration depth matters.

Btw, you dodged nicely a question about your audiograms with improvements once again.

 

[Bobby B]

@Zechariah
The cochlea is cast in bone so you need sufficent power to reach deep enough.

It's not floating in the air just behind the ear drum . It in a turn deeper behind the bones and tissues.

The shorter wavelengths have more photonic energy but they also get blocked by the skin and bone so in the end very little energy is available.

The longer wave can reach deeper and by increasing power and time you get more photons as well.

Read those 2 studies and tell us where it says that light around 1000nm has very little photonic energy.

That's why Hamblin states that the best effects in pratice - in live humans not during in vitro studies on cells - are between 800 to 1200 nm and he is the most knowledgeable person we know.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/26346298/

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4550182/#!po=40.0568

 

[Bobby B]

http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/875593-images?imageOrder=9

Figure 11 shows where the cochlea is from looking from the top of the skull

 

[whitebeach]

Hi,

Is anyone using Konftec LLLT lasers? Seems they are the same as Dr Wilden in Spain but very much cheaper.

 

[gotyoubynuts]

Hi,

Is anyone using Konftec LLLT lasers? Seems they are the same as Dr Wilden in Spain but very much cheaper.

@lymebite is maybe?

 

[lymebite]

Is anyone using Konftec LLLT lasers? Seems they are the same as Dr Wilden in Spain but very much cheaper.

I have the Konftec emLas 520BC and use it mainly for Hyperacusis. Has not helped so far but have not given up yet.

 

[whitebeach]

How long have you been using it and how often per day?

 

[lymebite]

How long have you been using it and how often per day?

About a month. Once a day.

 

[VRZ78]

Do you perceive a change in your T while using it ?

 

[lymebite]

Do you perceive a change in your T while using it ?

No.

 

[rainman]

Alrighty it's been 2 years now since my hyperacusis was treated at Dr.Wildens hospital in Regensburg. After that the home treatment with laserpen. I have taken good care of my ears with minerals amino acids, protection etc. And my child is 3 now so it's not that bad at home anymore.

I have held my pen incase of a set back, which luckily has not happened(knock on the wood). At this point in my life i'm starting to pursue my dreams and one of that needs a proper camera investment. That's why i thought i will sell my Laserpen80 mw (100 mw diod, visible laser light, 660 nm) with original cover and case. It operates with 3 AAA batteries and is easy to hold(light). I will give all the insturctions. It was bought 2014 and been sitting around a 1,5 years, so in a very good shape. At the time the price was 1600€. Pm me if you are interested and wish pictures.

All the best!

 

[Bobby B]

@rainman
Can you please elaborate on the cause of your ear issues , timing of it - how long before starting LLLT - and what kind of results the Wilden treatment and the home laser gave you ?

 

[rainman]

i have written on it on this thread i think. Earphones and lots of loud music and producing/mixing long hours took me there. 4-5 months later the start of my sensitivity pain i got to the clinic, just for the heck of it and cause some good reviews here(maybe this thread). After the clinic it was wierd sensation and tests was improved but it took some more time and home therapy before the sensitivity went away and has not returned.