Low-Level Laser Therapy (LLLT) for Tinnitus — Experiences (Dr. Wilden, etc.)

Alamost for sure does not work, do you know the wave length?

Fernando

 

I also expected it not to work, but didn't hurt to try. Could just buy some optical fibre and try to guide it into my ear...

The wavelength is about 650 nm, which justs means colour = red...

 

The audiogram improvements are impressive. If this works, are there any studies on safety and efficacy and if not, does anyone know why not?

 

Hello again. I am struggling. My tinnitus - spiked after an MRI exam - is still very bad. In the days immediately following it, the sounds were in my head and overwhelming, but they were IN MY HEAD, not in my ears, and distributed evenly. So even though the tinnitus was loud, I could sleep at night. Now, the situation has changed: my ears seems to have lost the "fullness" they experienced at first and with the "deflation", tinnitus came down and I can AGAIN hear the various tones inside the ears distinctly. And once again, I cannot sleep ...
Lack of sleep, tiredness beyond belief, tips me over the edge .. the darkest thoughts come to haunt me.

I've lost all my dreams and just want the torment to end.

But I am here to ask a question, not to moan: has anyone found laser therapy beneficial? My doctor, a renown ENT specialist, has put me on medications (Gingko and vein opening stuff) for 5 weeks. At the end of those 5 weeks, if I am still in the state I am in, he would like to try Laser therapy on me. Is there anyone here who has tried it and benefited from it? I cannot find any stories ...

 

The short answer to your question is: there is anecdotal evidence of people benefitting from laser therapy. There is not - to my knowledge - any hardcore double blind studies which confirm that LLLT can cure/treat tinnitus. Those who benefit seem to be those who are treated continuously over long periods of time (with occasional breaks) and with lasers in the upper regions of the cold laser therapy spectrum (= 200 - 500 mW). Treatment protocols could last up to 1 to 2 years. It requires a dedicated effort.

LLLT will have a beneficial physiological effect on your inner ear. For sure. Whether that effect translates into reduced tinnitus is not something I can guarantee. You will experience improved hearing threshold if done at a skilled treatment centre. For sure. It is biologically impossible not to experience an improvement (in hearing capability). I consider LLLT "interesting", but it is not something I can definitely recommend when it comes to tinnitus. You will need to make your own determination on this subject.

Unless your doctor is one of the few clinics in the world that provide high dosage treatments, then I doubt you will see much improvement.

Treatment protocol could be something like the following:

1. 10 sessions (= 10 days) of 1 hour therapy (30 min. each ear) with multiple wavelength lasers at minimum 200 mW output.
2. Before/after audiograms (incl. high frequency testing > 8 kHz).
3. Decision whether to continue further treatment as required (ie. another 10 sessions possibly).

Those who truly believe in laser therapy should consider buying their own clinic grade laser (in order to keep up the therapy for longer periods of time).

However, you may end up not getting the results you had hoped for. So I cannot really advise you to do it. If you are financially comfortable, then by all means have a go at it - you have nothing to lose. LLLT is 99,9% safe.

He can do that. But if your current treatment includes steriods, then a break of 6 weeks is indicated before treatment with LLLT can be commenced.

 

it is same as the trt!

 

Hi

Im currently in Ibiza getting treatment by the dear Doc.
Just got my third treatment today and are planning to get 10 in total.
On the 8khz audigram i got before arriveing, i had about 50-55db loss in the 4-5khz from what i remember and the new audiogram i had made here, which in my oppinion is worth nothing due to the procedure, showed loss up to 70-75db in tones over 8khz.

I wont comment about the treatment before im done, due to some issues i will go into later maybe.
I will only say that 30sec after the laser startet on day 2, i had some puffs going on in the treated ear of the different sounds i have. One of them being crickets ( FML)
And 12 hours later, all sounds started going on like crazy, which have never happend before.
So this sounds a bit like hansi is telling about and i hope this is a sign of the LLLT working.

Will post more when im done!

 

Hi @Nick J. as I said made one before going, i donºt think audigrams made by Dr Widen made in Ibiza
are correct.

The T going up, is usual a sinal that something is happening and usual the T goes up before going down.
Hope all goes well.

 

I am getting a bit lost in this thread (someone has merged my new thread with an existing one). Please illuminate me. People here talk about improving their hearing with LLLT. I do not care to improve my hearing - I hear just fine (my audiometric readings confirm that). If anything, I hear too much (I suffer from hyperacusis, where loud sounds become painful). What I wish to understand is whether there is anyone on this forum who has seen their tinnitus decrease with LLLT.

It scares me to hear that @Nick J. is experiencing a spike in his Tinnitus with laser therapy. I suffer from anxiety, so any increase in T is going to make me more anxious. And anxiety makes my tinnitus worse.

 

You should read on Wildens homepage. He explains about what u are asking about!
Have u got a audiogram of your hearing up to 12-16Mhz??
Cuz if not, then u could have loss of hearing up there without a normal ENT having found any sign of that.
But the increase in the tinnitus during treatment, is said to be part of the "cure" and for that reason, i dont get more anxious, since i know (or been told) is a positive thing actually.
Its like having pain/hole in a tooth...you are for sure gonna get more pain by going to the dentist and have him drilling out the hole or even pulling out the tooth.
But i hope thats not gonna stop anybody from going, since one should know that the grass is greener on the other side!
U need to learn to work your mind around these kind of every day issues imo!

I had my 8 session today and its still waaay to soon to reach any 100% conclusion for my part.
But there have been some really interesting stuff going on inside my ears, that points in a very positive direction!
Like 2 days out of the 8 have been really quiet compared to my normal level and that really spike hope in me.
But its lost the next day i go for a new treatment, cuz that make the earcells go bananas.
Some days there is no difference in my tinnitus after treament and other days i have high pitch noises pupping up and disapering just as quick and then mixed with som cricketnoises ect.
So all this tells me that whatever is causing the tinnitus in there, its for sure beeing reach by the LLLT and only in a positive way, if u know how cells react to light.
I will go into more details later and explain what i felt each day and so on.
Cuz there have been other positive things going on along the way, that i want time to confirm is there to stay.
So stay turned

 

aahh ok.. I dont remember what other have said about the way he makes audiograms, so i was just briefly writing my thoughts about it.

Yaa iv read about the positive side of tinnitus going up during and after treatment from hansi's blog and also from talking to wilden!
So thats why im actually happy about the increased tinnitus, since i know now im responding to the treatment and if that part is true, then why shouldent the rest?


I hope u are feeling progress from the stemcells and cant wait to hear about it

 

I am glad you are feeling upbeat about the treatment @Nick J. and I sure hope the LLLT will bring you permanent relief (and thus more hope for me).

I looked at my audiograms and no, here in the Czech Republic, they only test my hearing up to 8 MHz ...
So if you are right, then I may have a hearing loss that I am not aware of. Why would ENTs not test up to 12-16Mhz if it makes so much difference in understanding whether or not there has been a hearing loss?

 

Members who benefitted from LLLT - tinnitus wise - on this board are: @FERNANDO GIL and @HelmutK. There are other non-members who have posted their LLLT experience on the Internet; there are links in my introduction.

Unless you have had a full audiometric evaluation from 0 - 16 kHz, then you don't know what your hearing is like in the upper frequencies. Relatively little is known about human hearing in terms of full audiometric evaluations because ENTs just about always evaluate the speech frequency range only. Humans can have quite surprising hearing losses of up to 50-60db in the > 8kHz range (without noticing anything).

Spikes are normal after therapy. They go away again. It's a sign that the laser therapy is having the desired effect. In rare cases, patients will experience vertigo. However, that too will go away.

 

Hi @Katarina
I have to make clear that if you don´t have a full audigram, you will not know what is going with your hearing.
please see my audigrams, they are perfect till 8khz, after that is a big drop all the way to -65db on the higher frequencies. And that is what is causing me the T. I had Hiperacusis and that is gone.
Let´s see the reaction of @Nick J. on the next few weeks to see how it worked, for him.

 

See my 1 month update post. On
Inner Ear Hair Cell Regeneration — Maybe We Can Know More

 

Thank you @FERNANDO GIL and @attheedgeofscience for your messages and explanations. I must say I feel overwhelmed not just by tinnitus and hyperacusis but also by the many different messages I am getting from professionals and from fellow tinnitus warriors.

It puzzles me to know that ENTs only test hearing up to 8KHz when hearing loss can sometimes be picked up only in the higher frequencies ..
And why am I being told that I have "normoacusis" (normal hearing) when I myself can tell that I cannot hear so well because my tinnitus is worse and covers up sounds, which I would have heard prior to my worsening?

I have read the story of @HelmutK. and he promotes wearing earplugs as something that has helped him.
Others strongly advocate against it, saying it only makes T&H worse. That we need to teach the ears (and the nervous system) not to be afraid of sounds.
Whose advice should I follow, if I do not get sound advice from my own doctor?

Also the array of treatments is so vast and so random too. Not one ENT I have visited has told me about Stem Cell Therapy for ears - I've learnt about it here. Laser too is not an option that was proposed to me: I've had to ask about it specifically (having heard about it in a TV documentary)! I've tried HBOT in the past and that too was offered to me by someone only after countless of visits to different ENTs.

Although I am consumed by my T&H and spend a lot of time looking for help, I do not want to spend ALL MY TIME reading through forums and sifting through all this information, which is often contradictory. It exasperates me! I want to have a life beyond T&H! But I also desperately need my T&H to get better ... because they both limit me greatly (to the point where having a life beyond T&H is impossible).

Many times I have been told (by doctors too) that reading up on things on the internet and in forums is counterproductive ... that it feeds the cycle of anxiety which I have been caught in for too long and that makes things only worse ...
I agree and yet, at the same time, I feel an excruciating need for information, advice and support, which only you guys - fellow sufferers - can give me! The one "expert" in the Czech Republic, which I am now in treatment with, never has more than 5 minutes for me when I get to see him. I am so lost, frustrated and ... scared.

I am sorry for this lament .. I just really need to vent it out!

Thank you @attheedgeofscience for trying to help by summing things and postings up for me, so that I do not have to spend a whole day sifting through them. If I did, everytime, I'd end up having not just bad ears but bad eyes too from looking too much at the computer screen ...

Anyhow. I did call an audiologist straightaway to ask if they could test my hearing at frequencies above 8kHz but was told that they do not do it. And then I realized that I am (again!) self advocating diagnosis and treatments and that I should stop, because it is bad for me. I need to pace myself. I will assume that I have a hearing loss because my tinnitus is soaring and preventing me from hearing certain sounds. My H is spiked up and normal sounds hurt me, and I have been exposed to very loud sounds and could actually feel those sounds hurting my ears - all these are good reasons to think that I have damaged my ears.

I have obtained some relief (or rather change in tinnitus) since my post - MRI spike with the help of the combo treatment of Cavinton and Gingko (given to me by the "expert", but it may well be that time rather than the medications have made the difference. Although I hear fewer sounds and at lesser volume now, paradoxically they bother me more than the full on symphony I was hearing immediately after the MRI, so I want to try laser too, as this is an option that has been offered to me.

Please confirm to me @attheedgeofscience and anyone else who has been following this closely that LLLT cannot cause permanent T spike. If there are no risks, only possible benefits, then I am all for it.

If that does not help, then stem cell therapy will follow ...

Time for a cup of tea.

 

My advice.....use them as much as possible. That is what I did when I started the LLLT. I know T get´s louder but on the long term it helps.

I agree, so it should be time for you to take action. No matter which one, but just go for. Until you try what works for you, you will never know

Katarina, T spikes will not last for long, we are talking about a few weeks, In the past I was desperate every time I had a spike, Now I´m happy cause I know is regeneration working. If LLLT works for you you will get a relief, for sure. If T desapear is more difficult to predict. Please do not make a mistake from SPIKES with a upper volume on T due some food that you had, or anxiety.

Stay away from coffee, tea, junk food, specially the french fries from fast food restaurants, and GLUTAMATE anything
that says - NATURAL FLAVOR -
HERE IS A LIST OF THE NAMES THEY GIVE TO GMS:
Autolyzed Yeast, Calcium Caseinate , Gelatin , Glutamate/Glutamic Acid , Hydrolyzed Protein, Monopotassium Glutamate , Monosodium Glutamate , Sodium Caseinate ,Textured Protein, Yeast Extract , Yeast Nutrient
AND
Flavors and Flavorings, Seasonings, Natural Flavors and Flavorings, Natural Pork Flavoring, Natural Beef Flavoring, Natural Chicken Flavoring, Soy Sauce, Sopy Protein Isolate, Soy Protein, Bouillon, Stock, Broth, Malt Extract, Malt Flavoring, Barley Malt, Why Protein,Carrageenan, Maltodextrin, Pectin, Enzymes, Protease, Corn Starch, Citric Acid, Powdered Milk, Anything Protein Fortified, Anything Enzyme Modified, Anything Ultra-Pasteurized


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glutamic_acid
http://unblindmymind.org/wpsystem/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/Various_Ways_Free_Glutamate.pdf

And for last, stay away from ENT`s a well ( joking) . Try to make the audigram all the way to the 16Khz. If ENT says it´s not need it, ask him if he is goes to a cardiologist, and only check half of his heart , what he would think about that cardiologist. From my experience, they don´t know anything about T.
Take action, no matter what, but try. From this forum the only treatments I saw that give some permanent relief is LLLT or Stem Cell. The decision is up to you. But try something so you can low your anxiety.

Fernando

 

thank you @FERNANDO GIL. I will just go for it (the laser) and see where it takes me. If it does not help, I try STEM.

As for ear plugs, I am not sure .. I am also on the Hyperacusis forum and they are strong TRT advocates there (many have been helped by this therapy and have habituated their ears both to tinnitus and to sounds thanks to it). It makes sense to me that if you protect your ears too much, then any sound you will expose them to afterwards will be TOO MUCH. I am quite happy protecting my ears on planes, in train stations, and on motorways, but I do not want to render my ears so sensitive, that they cannot bear the sound of a friend's laughter (my experience).

When I first experienced H, I did not know whether to protect my ears or not .. so I protected them when the sounds were unpleasant and loud and did not protect myself when the sounds seemed bearable. And of course I got "hit" by unexpected sounds all the time - by a barking dog, a screaming child or a fork falling on tiles. I would go into panic, ear fullness, T and H spiking up badly instantly but ultimately, by exposing myself to sounds more and more, and getting more and more panic attacks which subsided just as they rose, both my nervous system and my ears got used to sounds and to the daily micro-acoustic-traumas. And slowly but surely, my reactions changed and I no longer panicked. I knew that my ears would hurt for a while and then would come down. The Hyperacusis forum and the lovely Myriam Westcott explained to me that this is how things work and my experience has proved them right. H ceased being unbearable as long as I did not expose my ears to too much noise (in bars, concerts, children playgrounds).

If I wear ear plugs, the sound of my own voice is too loud and irritates me. And ear plugs "plug" my tinnitus in and make me feel too aware of it and in consequence, scared ...

I am glad that LLLT has helped some and that Stem Therapy is helping some but TRT has also helped many ...

I guess the way forward is to use one's common sense and do what feels right ...

 

So I have spent 2 hours reading all the stuff everyone has commented on.
Good and bad.
my opinion is that LLLT does not work, as there is no proof.
Unless the people on this forum who have been using the laser treatment, can categorically say hand on heart that there tinnitus has improved, then there is only one conclusion.

Look forward to hearing from the users of the laser therapy feedback.
P.s
Dr Wilden website looks pony, and doesn't feel me with any confidence.
He's new office in Ibiza has look very suspect too.

Let's hope a proper cure for this bull shit condition is just round the corner..........

 

I don't know what you've been reading but LLLT is to help regenerate hair-cells (hearing loss) and not resolve T. But the theory goes if you can restore some hearing then you may reduce T. I find that most ppl who say it does not work have not done the treatment and are just skeptics reading other blind mice opinions or a few have actually tried the therapy only to stop before any results were achieved. It takes commitment, from months to years to improve or reach full potential. And in most cases that's not good enough for people so they remain skeptics while persistent ppl get better and not lurk around T forums.

 

So has anyone on here got better hearing since using LLLT?
I haven't read any success stories so far.

If it's because it takes months and years then I understand, however there are users on here that did start last year. And it has all gone very quite from them.

I'm just as keen as the next man to get better.

 

Hi @Carloflogical ..
I was asking the same thing and got this answer:

In the Czech Republic, where I live, laser is being offered to patients as part of the national health service. That is to say that doctors do not offer laser to make themselves rich by exploiting desperate people willing to pay anything to get rid of tinnitus. It is a method that is believed to help some and as such it is being offered alongside HBOT and medications. I know two respectable professionals with experience who truly believe in the power of laser to help patients with tinnitus - they have patients who have seen improvements. Of course there is no way of knowing whether they've been really helped by laser or whether their problems would have resolved anyhow.

From what I know it is not a treatment that is time sensitive - you can try it when you can afford it or have easy access to it or have more trust that it will help you.

 

I think u got a mail from Wilden! Hehe
We talked yesterday about stemcell treatment and he think its all BS and then i mention u and that u recently got the treatment and that got him pretty upset.
He went out to the computer with his wife and said he was gonna mail u right away!
He also cant believe the real Fanando Gil is in here on the forum. Must be some one fake he said

 

HI
When I was there I talked about the SC treatement, and he said the same.
My felling is that he trust so much in his terapy that he can not accpet anything else.

When he started there was no SC therapys. Maybe the solution in doing the two. I´m kepping doing LLLT and even considering going to Oslo next month for 5/6 sessions on Anne Harila clinic.

I felt much better after is therapy but trying other things.

I will give him a call, I had actual two person going from Portugal to see him cause I think that LLLT can help.

How you felling, that is the most important now?

Fernando

 

It did work for me and reduced the T , and still reducing.
Now is a point ! You trust me or you don´t..... I did put my audiograms before and after, and not made on Dr Wilden. Concerning the rest is up to you to try it or not. That is the only way for you to find out. I know money is an issue. But It´s starting to look like that sonner or later will happen to me the same as did to Chloe, L francis Ateos and others and other people that actualy got better and people starting saying they lie. I don´t need to be here anymore. Just being to try to help. I always put audiograms what is hapenning to me. The final decision is yours you live with T or you try something. If you prefere to wait, is up to you. I din´t Thank Good.
My audigrams are on this thread:
Inner Ear Hair Cell Regeneration — Maybe We Can Know More

 

You right, but as time goes by, the peole that got better start to leave this fórum, I used to come here everyday and every hour almost, but since I start to get better I´m coming here less and less. And if I feel I´m ok maybe in the future i will not even got back and the reason is cause people start to put in question what others say. A lot of them did.

Please see this mail from Sanm to Ateos.

Here is the kind and generous update from the owner of the healingmenieres website - I will post the entire mail unedited just below (the lack of proper formatting is due to content being copied from my webmail browser). I feel it is well worth a read - especially the timeline window.

I would like to mention that the treatment protocol and duration seems to correlate well with other people's LLLT accounts as well as with my own knowledge of the treatment. I have myself (also) been in touch with the Australian girl, Rebecca (who has a youtube video on LLLT, see page 1 within this thread) - and her experience reflects a similar timeline and experience (ie. at least 6 months treatment and at least some clinic therapy also).

***************************************************************************************************************
Hi Jacob,

I'd rather not get on a forum about LLLT for tinnitus because I have found in the past, people are very skeptical and negative.
My ear issues involved Ménière's disease so I was not just treating tinnitus. My low tone hearing was so far out that the tinnitus was unbearable- like a non-stop car horn that would get so loud in the middle of the night, it would wake me up. As my hearing steadily improved- it took a year of regular treatment with Dr. Wilden's MLS, the tinnitus became just a whisper. Due to other health issues and a couple of rounds of antibiotics, I developed high frequency tinnitus. I went to see Anne Harila twice and her treatments helped.
I still have some high frequency T but it is very livable.
The Luminex helped me greatly with healing from Meniere"s. After the first treatment, I never had another vertigo episode. That was four years ago. But I think the regular consistent treatments with the MLS (now called the LUCI or Spa deluxe) helped the most. Two months is not enough. You need 35 minutes daily for months or years. 5 days on, 2 days off. While treating, you must protect your ears. I use organic wet organic cotton as ear plugs and it works great.
Two months of treatment is not enough. You want to go by what Dr. W recommends because it is the low dose consistent treatment that provides the energy for healing.
I know three people, including Hansi Cross who have had great success just treating tinnitus. But it takes time and good ear protection while you are treating and even afterwards.
The Luminex probe fits into the ear. I have treated for 30 minutes at a time for a four days a week but then you take at least a four week break. Now if I use it, it is briefly every few months or so. When I saw Anne Harila, I did 2-3 hours of treatment with different lasers but then you take a 3-4 month break. The break is as important as the lasering itself.
My ears are not perfect but they are 90% better after 4 years. I generally have no problems at all but I still use ear protection while driving etc. I avoid loud music when I can but have been too some music events with ear plugs in.
If laser isn't working or helping at all it's because the nanometer isn't right for the tinnitus you have, the ear damage is too old for regeneration (years old), you are not using enough ear protection through out your day and therefore they can't heal or you just haven't done the treatments long enough. Two years minimum for real improvement using a low powered laser.
Btw- I have not heard great results from Konftec lasers.
I hope this helps. Feel free to post it in the forum.
Best, Sam

And i know that Chloe, the girl that recovered her hearing after the SC infussion, was gettin a lot of mails and post on his facebook saying that she was lier.

The only way to cure for T is recover your hearing, the rest is only a way to mask it on your brains. And for sure that will come with side efects on your brains like any other benzo,

 

Even do I have T since December 2013, I only staeted on 16h June 2014, only 4 months passed. For 4/5 year as Hansy Cross and Sam still a long way to go.

 

I think it is totally wonderful that the treatment has worked for someone and I am very thankful for any success story! @FERNANDO GIL, thank Jacob for me!
It is true that when people feel better, they tend to stop coming to forums. That's what I do when I feel good. I prefer to get on with my life than to mope around Tinnitus forums reminding myself of the hell I used to be in. Also, you know how it is: if you start talking about something, you make it a reality. You hear tinnitus even if it is not there. I am very susceptible to auto-suggestion. This is why I am even more thankful when people, who HAVE recovered, take the time to come back here to tell their success story and give us wretched sufferers some hope. Because until we find a treatment that works, we only have hope to go on ...

 

Its funny that a guy like him, is so closed minded in regards to other alternative treatments, when closed minded is exactly was he is so fustrated about other people beeing towards the LLLT.
I respect what he is doing and that he have kept on doing this for all these years.
Because i have no doubt in my mind, that he have and still are taking alot of heat from all the ENT's sueing him and what not. And companys koping his Laser and take credit for his studies and so on.
In my mind, he is like one of those mad scientist u see in movies and that he is so caught up in his own little world and work, that it leaves no room for thinking outside the box or look into things that might help the patient along with the use of lasers!
In his mind, only the laser will help. Nothing else!!!
Not even taking strong vitamins or eating heathy had any effect...only the laser!
I had some pretty heated discussions with him in the beginning, about different stuff and soon realized it was not worth it. Cuz we where both equally stubbern about our view on things.
So i just gave it a rest and then everything was fine.

I think its a good idea to go try Anna.
She is doing things a bit different and do other lasertreatment. So that might just start some regeneration in another area of the ear maybe...who knows.

I just had the last treatment at Wilden today and will now let my ears rest for about a week to take most of the spike away from the tinnitus and then see how it is.
But i must say, that those 2000€ was well spent.
The pain in my ears has left and did so after day 3 i think.
I also had a feeling of deafness in the left ear, like if u cover your ear with your hand.
This was like 50% after like 4 session and it feels like its gone completly now.
My tinnitus before was so high, that i could walk beside a busy highway with trucks and busses tailing each other and still hear it loud and clear.
I also had different noises going on and have lost 2/3 of them now
Back is just this high pitch rusty wind blowing kind of sound and even if thats bad anough, it still feels like its fading also. Its sounds a bit like if u are out swimming and put your head under water and u hear the sound from the engine of a boat, or the propellar i might add. Most probably knows this sound. Really thin high pitch and after treatment it spikes and becomes deeper and louder obv.
But this to me is amazing after just 10 sessions. So i ended up buying the MLS from him, cuz so many says good things about it.
Im in a casino ATM writing this. But will post new audiogram later and in a month i will get a audiogram from the same ENT i went to before going to ibiza.

 

Hey Nick J.
How did you get your Tinnitus?
I see that you had it for 24 years? That is some serious time.
If you are getting better it's good to know that after such a long time of suffering, you are on the mend.