Low-Level Laser Therapy (LLLT) for Tinnitus — Experiences (Dr. Wilden, etc.)

[Starman9]

I'm wondering if anyone has any experience of, or thoughts about, the following product:
https://redlightman.com/product/red-infrared-combo-mini/

The same site supplies other lights of different wavelengths, so perhaps one (or more) of their other products might be more suitable for treating ears? See: https://redlightman.com/

I wonder what wavelength and power Dr Wilden/Amon Kaiser use in their clinics... Anyone know?

So.. I'd be very interested to learn if those in the know think the above products could be effective and which model might be the best bet. Thanks in advance.

 

[lymebite]

Anyone have any thoughts re. the above products. Thanks in advance.

I ordered the Red Light Man "Infrared Light Device Mini" last week and am waiting for it to arrive. I chose this model because the infrared wavelengths are supposed to be more capable of penetrating tissue and bone.

https://redlightman.com/product/infrared-light-device-mini/

 

[Starman9]

I ordered the Red Light Man "Infrared Light Device Mini" last week and am waiting for it to arrive. I chose this model because the infrared wavelengths are supposed to be more capable of penetrating tissue and bone.

Best of luck! I wonder how the power of these RedLightMan lights compares with the lasers used by Dr. Wilden...

 

[Starman9]

Many thanks for the 'conversation' lymebright. I'm probably being dense but I could find no way to reply within that conversation, hence my reply via this route! (Maybe it's because I'm a new member of this site?)

I already have that paper! I'm assuming you're DT - you sent it to me via the H group! (I'm Bernie S!) Thanks!

 

[lymebite]

(I'm Bernie S!) Thanks!

Hi Bernie! Yes, I did send already! Welcome to TTalk!

By the way, Joe who runs Red Light Man is very responsive if you ask him questions about which of his devices might be best. And since you are in the UK you are lucky to get free shipping.

In the TTalk "Conversations" there should be a box at the bottom to type a reply, then you click "Post Reply" to respond.

 

[Starman9]

Thanks DT! No sign of any reply box I can type in - in that conversation, but no worries!

Let us know how you get on with the light!

There do seem to be some people dotted around who have had obvious benefit from laser therapy for ears... it seems that it does indeed work for some...

 

[Starman9]

I'm wondering if anyone in here knows whether there are any significant differences between the laser treatment protocols offered by the different practitioners (ie. Amon Kaiser, Dr Wilden, Anne Harila etc.)

I've read a few success stories here and there that mention Dr Wilden, but there doesn't seem to be any mention of the other practitioners!

 

[Bobby B]

@Starman9
All these have been discussed in detail in this thread
It's a long one but good read

 

[Tom Cnyc]

I don't believe for a second that stress causes tinnitus. It'd be a MUCH more pervasive problem and a much less permanent one.

ENTs would be the first to say - it's probably stress and it'll probably go away - instead of "get used to it".

 

[WildMan]

For the Lucky Laser what are the prefered power setting used?

You have two options for both wavelengths

808 nm (W)? (Hz)?

650 nm (mW)? (Hz)?

 

[Cal18]

Just reporting on progress with the Luci laser. Seems like the more "electrical" sound I've acquired right before purchasing the laser has lessened (this could be coincidental). However, I've been getting some instances of very strong fleeting tinnitus. I had it a lot closer to my onset but not this extreme. Wondering if this is common and if anyone else had experienced this.

 

[lymebite]

For the Lucky Laser what are the prefered power setting used?

You have two options for both wavelengths

808 nm (W)? (Hz)?

650 nm (mW)? (Hz)?

@WildMan see an earlier post by @Philip83 for a suggested protocol.

Zazzio's treatment plan
His treatment plan for his patients are as follows (this is also the one my uncle got):

808nm at 300mW - 6 to 8min (both ears at the same time, with prob inside)
650nm at 500mW - 10min (both ears at the same time, with prob inside)

This is repeated only two times per week, for 10 weeks.

https://www.tinnitustalk.com/thread...riences-dr-wilden-etc.295/page-32#post-127062

 

[Starman9]

Reading this thread I realize there are some basic concepts about which I'm embarrassingly unclear: Essentially, what the power figures of different lasers, lights etc. really indicate!

I believe I understand an expression of light power density such as 200mW/cm².

But if a laser's power is expressed as just a wattage (eg. 100mW) then I'm not so clear. Does such an expression merely refer to the energy consumed by that device?

I want to get really clear about all this so I can meaningfully compare different products.

eg. The products on RedLightMan page all have their power density and power consumption shown, but I'm not sure how to compare the amount of light they are truly 'delivering' with other lights/lasers as all other devices seem to have their power indicated as just a wattage. eg. 100mW etc.

Along the same lines: @Tom Cnyc wrote above that the Lumomed clinic's laser is 25w. Again, I'm seeking some clarification as to what exactly is being referred to in that figure. Hope my drift is clear here!

Thanks

 

[Bobby B]

I think that the light delivered for the cheap LED is about 10% of the power consumption based on the sellers description

For laser it's higher maybe 50%

So the idea is to get a 20w LED to get about 2w of real light which is quite high

I am ordering one off eBay and will try . Those also required higher voltage power sources

Some more efficient LED are 25% efficient but cost 200 dollars a piece those are made by Osram Phillips and the poster pumkinate did post a few pics how he built his device using 20w Osram LED - look it up its all here on these forums

 

[lymebite]

But if a laser's power is expressed as just a wattage (eg. 100mW) then I'm not so clear. Does such an expression merely refer to the energy consumed by that device?

My understanding is that laser power is measured exactly the same way as LED power: mW / cm2. A good laser (or LED) manufacturer should be able to tell you that information. When I have purchased lasers, I have tested them with my own laser power meter to confirm the output, this is what I use:

https://www.laserbeelpm.com/laserbee-a.html

This link gives information on laser power density:

https://www.laserbeelpm.com/power-density.html

"Usually Laser Power Density is expressed in Watts per square Centimeter or W/cm2. For example if a sensor with a claimed maximum power density of 20W/cm2 is expressed we can find the amount of laser power that we can safely apply to this sensor before causing any damage to the sensor. In this example case if we have a laser with a beam that is 4mm in diameter the beam will cover 12.566 mm2. At 20W/cm2 the power density per square millimeter would be 20000 / 100 = 200mW/mm2. Therefore your Laser with the 4mm diameter beam that you want to test can not be more powerful than 12.5 X 200 = 2500mW (rounded off safely) or you will damage the sensor's coating."

So it is not too meaningful to say a laser has a certain wattage without knowing things like the divergence of the beam and the distance from which it will be applied (so you know how many cm2 the total wattage is hitting and you can then divide the total wattage by cm2 circle to know the power density per cm2). A laser power meter shows what a laser is doing, and you can test it yourself, like I have done, or some vendors (such as a Red Light Man) provide the information up front, or will do so on request.

Of course, the trick is, once you know the power density you are dealing with, what is still largely unclear is how much of that dissipates through tissue and bone on the way to the cochlea. It is a lot, but is it 90 percent or 99 percent? That makes a big difference in terms of how many minutes are required to deliver a certain dosage in joules. If it is 90 percent maybe you need one minute of laser (or LED). But if it is 99 percent then maybe you need ten minutes of laser (or LED) to get the desired dosage in joules. Would be great if there were more research on this front.

 

[Shade]

Hello,

I am looking for a LLLT that can be used for both ears (tinnitus) and spot treatment (pain), and having a hard time finding one.

My wife is having a hard time coping with her increased tinnitus, and and if this have a faint chance of mabee reducing her tinnitus just a bit it is worth trying. She wont let me buy such a thing "just" for her, so I need it to be used for pain also, because I have hib/knee pain from a birth defect - and then she is okay with it

I have a hard time finding a combi laser, have only found this:

opti-moxibustion GD-56T (http://www.opti-moxibustion.com/products_view.asp?id=20)

Anyone know that machine? Can recomend it, or another?

Thanks in advance.

Lars

 

[Starman9]

Thank you so much @lymebite and @Bobby for your replies.

But (sorry!) I must confess I'm still a little unclear as to whether the wattage figures given by laser manufacturers refer to energy consumption or the amount of power produced. Clarification on that point specifically would be much appreciated!

I understand that the meaningful measurement is the power density.

I was looking again at the Red Light Man site and see he sells some seemingly high-powered lights. eg. this 100w mother: https://redlightman.com/product/infrared-light-device/

I wonder if buying a couple of these - shining one on each ear from maybe 30cm away - would give the sort of power and penetration to approach the Lumomed laser. Or would it just fry what's left of my brain?!!

 

[Bobby B]

red light is blocked by the skin this is for skin treatments

you need IR for deep tissue and bone penetration

 

[Starman9]

red light is blocked by the skin this is for skin treatments

you need IR for deep tissue and bone penetration

Yes indeed. For some reason, the link in my last post was going to the wrong product. I've corrected it now.

The product I have in mind is the Infrared light device. (which is 830mn and 760mn)
https://redlightman.com/product/infrared-light-device/

 

[jacob21]

I have the home laser from Dr Wilden .

When I was in Ibiza last summer , I did 5 or 6 session in his clinic
Did many sessions and didn't notice any improvement unfortunately .

How many people in this forum got some relief with LLLT?

Maybe I should do much more sessions but when I plug the laser in my ears , My T go to the roof as I have no masking sound during the session

 

[lymebite]

But (sorry!) I must confess I'm still a little unclear as to whether the wattage figures given by laser manufacturers refer to energy consumption or the amount of power produced. Clarification on that point specifically would be much appreciated!

In the case of the ones I have checked, the power figure refers to the amount of energy produced.

 

[Starman9]

In the case of the ones I have checked, the power figure refers to the amount of energy produced.

Thanks!

 

[GregCA]

In the case of the ones I have checked, the power figure refers to the amount of energy produced.

...by unit of time.

 

[Starman9]

I wonder what wavelength and power Dr Wilden/Amon Kaiser use in their clinics... Anyone know?

To answer my own question, looking at the pics in Amon Kaiser's site I can see he uses the following laser:
http://www.celasers.com/medical/products/mls-therapy-lasers/m6
As does his colleague in the US.

 

[lymebite]

To answer my own question, looking at the pics in Amon Kaiser's site I can see he uses the following laser:
http://www.celasers.com/medical/products/mls-therapy-lasers/m6

As does his colleague in the US.

Good find!

Any sense of how this translates into mW / cm2 power density where the Lumomed photos show it projecting a circle of light around the ear?

 

[Starman9]

And I see in this page you can enter your zip code and find the nearest practitioner who has an MLS laser (ie. same laser as Amon Kaiser):
http://www.celasers.com/medical
They may not have experience with ears of course... but perhaps may be persuaded to try?!

 

[Starman9]

Given what some have said about Kaiser's laser being 25w, and the fact that his clinic is in Europe, I reckon his laser is actually the following, which is possibly slightly different from the US counterpart:
http://www.asalaser.com/lasertherapy/products/m6

 

[Starman9]

Given what some have said about Kaiser's laser being 25w, and the fact that his clinic is in Europe, I reckon his laser is actually the following, which is possibly slightly different from the US counterpart:
http://www.asalaser.com/lasertherapy/products/m6

Actually, it very much appears to be the identical laser! It's just that the specs are slightly differently presented...

 

[briano]

I've posted this is several forums and private messages. I'm sorry if you saw it more than once. I just want to share my experiences with Dr. Wilden's laser with everyone. I just had my 6 month audiogram since using Dr. Wilden's laser. Unfortunately, there doesn't seem to be any real improvement. I'll be sending him a message to see what he has to say about this. In the meantime, I will still continue to use the laser. I hope that my results (or lack thereof) can help people decide if laser treatment is for them. I'm a bit down...but I am not out. Let's see what Dr. Wilden has to say.

 

[mikeplas]

Any experiences using the cheap redlight infrared device?