Low-Level Laser Therapy (LLLT) for Tinnitus — Long-Lasting Everyday Home-Practiced Experiences

[mrbrightside614]

Hey everybody, I'm starting a log as my Konftec 808nm system just showed in the mail (quick shipping!)

Background information:
June 19th—head on collision, airbag deploy—hyperacusis starts (mainly in the left ear but the right suffers from excessive startle as well). I may have developed my first tone in this period (low, machine-like whirring), but it was the summer and a lot of construction was going on. I almost always assumed something was going on faintly in the distance and the tone didn't bother me at that time. During this time I had no idea what was happening to me. I worked as a strength trainer for a local high school and the dropping of weights, the slamming of doors, any music (especially the START of tracks) was giving me horrible, debilitating headaches and ocular migraines. Fight or flight response issued during triggers; I figured it was just PTSD and that it would go away.

July 18th I did not remove myself from the triggers early enough and I woke up in the middle of the night to an unmistakable EEEEEEE that would never go away. I was only on Zoloft for three days but my doc yanked me off of it in case it was the Zoloft, but denied my cries for prednisone. I don't look back on that day with the same regret as I once did, considering many acoustic trauma-induced tinnituses/hyperacusis origins do not go away even with prompt courses of the appropriate doses of oral steroids. I have had a moderately severe tinnitus ever since. At times I have heard up to three or four tones—the whir, the EEE, a shimmer (pixie dust), and something horrible that happens when I'm in between being asleep and awake. It may be exploding head syndrome. I was hospitalized a little over a month ago because I was sleeping about 2 hours every two days. Eventually the docs kind of "righted" this issue with 300mg Quetiapine and 15mg Remeron. Ever since then sleep has not been as much of an issue, but as you all know about the unconscious ramifications of tinnitus it still ultimately affects our time spent in REM and in stage 4 (deep, restorative) sleep. I sleep about 9 hours every day and wake up feeling tired still.

Presently, I woke up with a lot of mental energy and low tinnitus today. This is very rare. Usually, the more tired I am when I wake up, the less I notice the tinnitus because my senses are so dulled from poor sleep/medication sides. The more energy I have when I wake up, the more acute my senses, the better firing of my neurons...the louder the tinnitus. The EEEEE is by far the most intrusive of the tones. My audiogram is shit but they say I have no hearing loss (up to 8 kHz...)

I just tried the Konftec—2 rounds of 10 minutes before and after a cold hike here in Ohio. It's a pleasant sensation, but the mere tactile presence of it is perhaps what make people perceive "spikes" post-treatment. I shove the tip pretty deep in there (that's what he said) because it feels like my left ear always wants to reject things inserted in this. This could be caused by my messed up jaw alignment, which I am also seeking treatment for ($18K over 36 months...)

I will be updating if I notice pretty much anything of note but until then, I plan on using this for 10 minutes three times per day. If anyone else has suggestion on "dosing" protocols, please let me know. I've inquired about Lenire through email as of yesterday because of @Redknight's similar symptom profile to me and his encouraging progress. No answer on that front as of yet.

Update 1: 5 days in: 2x30 min protocol

LLLT seems to either draw my attention to, or acutely spike the tinnitus. I put only one bud into my affected side (left) once yesterday, and did not experience this phenomenon, in addition to having slightly quieter tinnitus this morning. I also only did one 30 minute session yesterday as I did not want to "spike" my tinnitus before sleeping. I would imagine if my tinnitus is normally a 5, I'd call this a 3, although should likely be simply attributed to daily fluctuations.

 

[Jan64]

or acutely spike the tinnitus.

Due to the LLLT treatment it is possible that the tinnitus is temporary louder... but in the all years I treated my ears this was never permanent...

 

[mrbrightside614]

Yeah I'm not worried about it. It hasn't affected my sleep and you can't reduce my quality of life much more anyways so giving it the ol YOLO try

 

[Jan64]

I would imagine if my tinnitus is normally a 5, I'd call this a 3, although should likely be simply attributed to daily fluctuations.

It would be good to monitor your tinnitus loudness once a day, preferably in the morning. In a small notebook or piece of paper... I do this also, alongside monitoring my weight... When you look at it on a long term then you can see a certain hopefully downward trend...

Like this:
Date Weight Tin R Tin L
20/11 76,7 2,8 3,6

 

[Jan64]

I would imagine if my tinnitus is normally a 5, I'd call this a 3, although should likely be simply attributed to daily fluctuations.

It would be good to monitor your tinnitus loudness once a day, preferably in the morning. In a small notebook or piece of paper... I do this also, alongside monitoring my weight... When you look at it on a long term then you can see a certain hopefully downward trend...

Like this:
Date Weight Tin R Tin L
20/11 76,7 2,8 3,6

 

[UHPTS]

Has anyone tried these earphones with laser?

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32894996716.html

I wanted to try laser therapy but my tinnitus doctor said that infrared light may actually make tinnitus worse, that one has to be really careful of the light frequency. Not sure how he came to such a conclusion. Anyway he said ok but only if physiotherapy doesn't help.

(Wonder if being in hyperbaric chamber + laser + loaded with antioxidants and other goodies (all at the same time) would not make some beneficial changes to cochlea.)

 

[MRItechssuck]

Yeah I'm not worried about it. It hasn't affected my sleep and you can't reduce my quality of life much more anyways so giving it the ol YOLO try

Any updates?

 

[mrbrightside614]

Any updates?

Returned my device and lost out on like $200 because of the shipping and return policy. Oh well.

 

[Cher2]

Has anyone tried these earphones with laser?

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32894996716.html

I wanted to try laser therapy but my tinnitus doctor said that infrared light may actually make tinnitus worse, that one has to be really careful of the light frequency. Not sure how he came to such a conclusion. Anyway he said ok but only if physiotherapy doesn't help.

(Wonder if being in hyperbaric chamber + laser + loaded with antioxidants and other goodies (all at the same time) would not make some beneficial changes to cochlea.)

If you try these, please let us know how they worked for you.

 

[SoundB0und]

Has anyone tried these earphones with laser?

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32894996716.html

I wouldn't waste my money on it. Yes it's less than half of the price of the 660 nm wavelenght Konftec device(which is 470 usd) but it's also only 5 mW, same as the old Tinnitool I believe, which worked for pretty much nobody. The main reason I suspect is it's only 5 mW, but it might not be limited to that.

The Konftec 660nm one is 50 mW, so a 10 times difference, the 808nm one is 90 mW even bigger difference if you were to go for that one. Plus this hasn't been tested much by people on here so you're gambling on something that may or may not work and might be flimsy and break down, just to save a couple hundred bucks.

I know the Konftec devices are kind of fragile but my device has been working well for almost 2 years, though I have been very careful handling it and always using the hand strap and never dropping it.

I have made a full recovery from 10/10 tinnitus(not to silence but to prior tinnitus level, at about 1/10) and bad hyperacusis in my right ear. My left is much worse, but its improving still I believe, but very slowly. The right isn't improving much because it's already at the level it was for many years where it was chronic.

I'd say my left is at about 3/10 maybe on average but it does fluctuate a bit still. I'm hoping that in a year it will catch up the right one, but I doubt it will. The reason there's such a big difference is because of me making a huge mistake with the laser, you can read about it here.

https://www.tinnitustalk.com/threads/low-level-laser-therapy-lllt-for-tinnitus-—-long-lasting-everyday-home-practiced-experiences.25110/page-7#post-390133

This brings me to my last point. The sooner you do the laser the better. At 3 months after getting tinnitus or a spike is when you're still going to have a good recovery IMO. After 6 months you're lucky to get a significant reduction.

I unfortunately made the mistake, but definitely proved to myself that the laser works and works very well, but ONLY in the acute phase. Because my left ear got much less of the laser(I don't think it got no light, if it'd been that it'd been even worse), it'll probably never be as good as my right, though my right hasn't really improved for 6 months or maybe even more. I missed the window of it working well for my left ear.

Luckily it switches ears and 50% of the times I'm doing very good, 50% of the times still good and not annoyed by it anymore but not as amazing. I would be resuming regular life if I had not made the mistake and I was a very bad case, even for Tinnitustalk.

Good luck whatever you decide to do.

 

[Findes]

Very new to tinnitus and first time on a forum of any sort.

I am looking for some feedback on the Konftec LLLT regime? I have been told my tinnitus is related to high frequency hearing loss, probably as a result of a concert I attended in December last year. I was right at the back of the concert hall and did not think the decibels were that high. The high pitched ringing began a few days after and was not helped by a heavy head cold I had at the time.

I am confused as to which Konftec machine to use for high frequency hearing loss and tinnitus noise.

Having read quite a large amount of the threads here, my hope is that nursing my ears over the next year or so and trying LLLT (along with other options like CBT) might be the way forward.

I would really value views anyone may want to share?

Thanks.

 

[Findes]

I suppose what I am confused about is that my T noise seems to be at the 7,000 Hz level. From the Konftec site, they would suggest I use the 520C 660nm 50mW with the red laser.
People on this forum seem to suggest the more powerful 520B 880nm 90mW with infra red laser is the better option. However, this is for tinnitus in the region of 2,000 Hz to 4,000 Hz.

 

[SoundB0und]

From the Konftec site, they would suggest I use the 520C 660nm 50mW with the red laser.

Back when I bought my laser almost 2 years ago, I asked them what the graph was based on, what science etc. They just ignored my email. Now it could have also been because the person answering the emails didn't know or that he didn't want to bother higher ups or whatever, but take it with a grain of salt. I've had a good experience with Konftec overall.

The device seems kinda fragile though, but that's what you get I guess for buying the cheapest laser still worth buying(there's cheaper ones obviously, like the one mentioned here earlier, but they're not worth wasting your money on IMO).

If you end up buying the device, I suggest you be careful handling it and don't press on the spot where the wire attaches to the probe, that seems to be the most fragile part of the entire device, always grab the probe from the metal part. I've been using both wavelengths, 660 nm and 808 nm, alternating between them, 1 day I do one wavelength and the other the other one.

I used only the 808 at first and thought adding the 660 would be pointless or even counterproductive, but it definitely works better if I use both of them. I've tried both wavelengths alone for a month straight and both times it didn't work as well combining them. My hearing loss is high frequency.

There's older posts by a member called @FERNANDO GIL who says you need to use different wavelengths because the ears get used to 1 wavelength or something. O and because the 808 nm is almost twice as powerful, I use it for only 15min instead of 25 like I do the 660. One should experiment around with different durations of treatment I think, because what works best might be different from people to people.

Good luck whatever you decide to do.

 

[Findes]

Thank you for your very helpful reply.
May I ask whether you have seen a reduction in your tinnitus and whether your high frequency hearing loss has improved?
Looking at the Konftec site I would guess that I need to purchase just one controller, but then one infra red 808 and one red 660? Not sure how this is possible as the lasers seem to be sold with controllers in one package. One at $450 and the other at $530.

 

[SoundB0und]

May I ask whether you have seen a reduction in your tinnitus and whether your high frequency hearing loss has improved?

My tinnitus has improved massively in the right ear, the reason my left is different is because of a huge mistake I made, you can read about it in a post I made 1,5 years ago here:

https://www.tinnitustalk.com/thread...racticed-experiences.25110/page-7#post-390133

My hearing unfortunately hasn't improved, I did an audiogram about a year ago after doing the laser for 9 months, but that was a minor issue for me.

You only need one controller because you can choose your time of treatment and also you can switch the laser probes/heads, they plug into to controller. The 470 and 530 package include one controller, everything included is shown on the pictures. Its the probes that have a different price, the 808 costs more.

There's lots of packages, the one I have is emLas-520BCB, for 820 dollars, that includes 1 controller and 660nm and 808nm probes, the last "B" there stands for black, it just looks more professional to me, otherwise no difference between the white one.

 

[Findes]

You are very kind. Thank you so much for this information.
Three months into this. There are days when I can almost put this into a background noise. There are other days when it just seems to take over and I find it quite debilitating. From what I can understand, I may still be at the 'acute' stage and that is why I am hopeful of some improvement.
Looking at your post, it seems it is very important to get the placing of the laser exactly correct in the ear. I may need to come back to you as to the best way to do this.
I hope you continue to see ever improving results and a significant decrease in that high pitched noise.

 

[FGG]

They are now studying cochlear implants that use light instead of electrodes to produce sound so i think there is probably something to this approach as CIs have been known to improve tinnitus, but it seems like it would be very constricted by the cochlea and round window. I'm pretty new to this idea so I'm just wondering if that truly is something that can be adjusted for with the right calculation.

 

[SoundB0und]

Looking at your post, it seems it is very important to get the placing of the laser exactly correct in the ear. I may need to come back to you as to the best way to do this.

The placement of the probes in the ear, the angle of the I mean, is much less important if you cut the rubber tip from the base 5mm, because then the beam becomes much wider. I tried doing it at some point but then I couldn't keep the probes in the ear well for some reason, even though I cut the base. You could try it out, most people are able to do it, Konftec will send you many rubber tips.

 

[Findes]

Once again, thank you for your help.
I have placed an order and will update in due course.
In the meantime, I have found meditation quite a good tool to lessen the intensity of the tinnitus.
To all out there, I hope with all my heart that your tinnitus is something that can be brought to a point where you can rule it, rather than the other way round.

 

[Findes]

I have started using the Konftec device 10 minutes a day for both the 808 nm and the 660 mm earplugs. I am now four days in.

So far, all I have noticed is that my tinnitus is slightly more noticeable.

I wonder whether this is the experience of others?

 

[SoundB0und]

4 days is nothing. I had a significant increase in my tinnitus at first. It might take you months until you see improvements. For me it's been very gradual, but I've used the laser for almost 2 years very diligently now and my tinnitus severity is night and day compared to what it was.

 

[Sironketchup]

Why do people still fall for this hocus pocus flash lights for your ears, especially now with real treatments upcoming like Lenire?

 

[Bubblegum Witch]

Maybe this is self-evident to people with more sense than I who didn't put too much stock in the experience of a few forum goers, but shining a 808nm laser into your inner ear is not safe. Profoundly not safe. Six sessions with a Konftec device caused major, irreversible hearing loss - an order of magnitude worse than where I started.

The laser causes tinnitus spikes because it's damaging your cochlea. It's that simple. There is no mechanism for this to be healing. The cochlea can't heal. Irradiating it damages healthy hair cells, which causes further hearing loss. Maybe that modulates tinnitus in the short term for some people by changing the perception of the hearing loss, and maybe I would have been better off if I'd skipped every other day, but this is not a healthy or advisable practice and I can't believe Konftec sell such lasers as safe - regardless of Wilden's opinions.

Now I can't help but wonder if buying their recommended 780nm would have done less damage, though I kind of doubt it since the underlying principle is the same. I can't believe I was fool enough to research that LLLT was safe but not realize that research only applied to the 660nm laser systems. I can't believe I was fool enough not to stop before my baseline because intolerable. Please learn from my mistakes. Shining a laser pointer in your ear (660nm) is harmless and generally recognized as safe. Infrared LLLT is a completely different practice and it can destroy your hearing.

 

[Jan64]

There's lots of packages, the one I have is emLas-520BCB, for 820 dollars, that includes 1 controller and 660nm and 808nm probes, the last "B" there stands for black, it just looks more professional to me, otherwise no difference between the white one.

Regarding the colour: my son got the black controller and I got the white one. The black looks much better...

 

[Jan64]

Maybe this is self-evident to people with more sense than I who didn't put too much stock in the experience of a few forum goers, but shining a 808nm laser into your inner ear is not safe. Profoundly not safe. Six sessions with a Konftec device caused major, irreversible hearing loss - an order of magnitude worse than where I started.

Sorry to hear you did not benefit. This is very rare. According to scientific research your tinnitus might get louder in the beginning, but that is mostly temporary. General scientific opinion it that LLLT is a safe treatment. Hope you will heal.

 

[Renee W]

@SoundB0und

Hi Soundbound,

I received my enlas 520 bcb device today. You said you used it incorrectly in your left ear when you first got it. I'm wondering if there is any special way to insert the plugs? Can you please let me know!

Thank you,
Renee

 

[SoundB0und]

Hi @Renee W

No special way to insert the probes, I insert them kind of like earplugs, pulling up my ear with the other hand and inserting with a slightly twisting motion.

What you can do though is cut the rubber tips from the base around 5 mm, which makes the beam much wider and thus makes it much harder to miss the cochlea.

Best of luck with the treatment.

 

[Artemis2K]

Maybe this is self-evident to people with more sense than I who didn't put too much stock in the experience of a few forum goers, but shining a 808nm laser into your inner ear is not safe. Profoundly not safe. Six sessions with a Konftec device caused major, irreversible hearing loss - an order of magnitude worse than where I started.

The laser causes tinnitus spikes because it's damaging your cochlea. It's that simple. There is no mechanism for this to be healing. The cochlea can't heal. Irradiating it damages healthy hair cells, which causes further hearing loss. Maybe that modulates tinnitus in the short term for some people by changing the perception of the hearing loss, and maybe I would have been better off if I'd skipped every other day, but this is not a healthy or advisable practice and I can't believe Konftec sell such lasers as safe - regardless of Wilden's opinions.

Now I can't help but wonder if buying their recommended 780nm would have done less damage, though I kind of doubt it since the underlying principle is the same. I can't believe I was fool enough to research that LLLT was safe but not realize that research only applied to the 660nm laser systems. I can't believe I was fool enough not to stop before my baseline because intolerable. Please learn from my mistakes. Shining a laser pointer in your ear (660nm) is harmless and generally recognized as safe. Infrared LLLT is a completely different practice and it can destroy your hearing.

This was exactly my experience. I bought the Wilden LLLT device after so many people on here recommended it while I was desperate. At that point my tinnitus and ear pain was so bad I was suicidal, so I needed some hope, even if it was false. After a while, even though I was avoiding noise obsessively, I noticed that I acquired some hearing loss through an app. Suddenly I could barely hear 4kHz tones on the left ear with the Starkey app. It took a while for me to be even able hear half as well on that frequency as I used to. Still haven't gotten that back.

What's worse, Wilden said that the amount of time I was wanting to use them, 1hr+, was safe. It was convenient for me to be able to relax and read for a while.

And then the darn thing broke and I wanted a refund. I sent it in for that, it got lost in customs, and Wilden didn't even bother to pick it up. He just sent another one. So, I lost $2.6k.

I think that LLLT on ears may have some value under moderation for inflammation but that's it. The research on it is not good enough. I know LLLT is recommended for a lot of other things, most being non organ related, but there definitely isn't any reliable research for LLLT for ears, and I wish people would stop talking about it here. Heck, the science on PRP sounded more logical in my opinion, and yet even that didn't seem to work out.

Unfortunately, I can never get my money back. Even though it would help a lot for school.

 

[Anima]

Effect of low-level laser treatment on cochlea hair-cell recovery after ototoxic hearing loss
Effect of low-level laser treatment on cochlea hair-cell ... www.spiedigitallibrary.org › Downl...
Transmeatal Low Level Laser Therapy (LLLT) on Vestibular Inner Ear after Topical Gentamicin Ototoxicity

 

[mknature]

After reading this whole thread, I'm trying to sort out whether this really is an option for me.

I'd be lying if I said I wasn't scared by the prospect of LLLT having averse effects as some posters have had. My baseline right now is pretty hard to bear, but to make it worse...seems insurmountable.

On one hand, if I try the 660nm Konftec for short periods of time and have no averse effects, great. On the other, it does seem that wavelength matters in terms of healing, and since my T sounds are hanging around the 3,000Hz range, I'd need the 780nm.

I'm at about 1 month after aminoglycoside eye drops did the bad, and I know the sooner the better. Tons of folks say, take it one day at a time, it will improve, but seems the time to move on this treatment is before I know whether I'll be able to habituate to the 2 or 3 sounds I've got. It's a bitter irony. Ideas?