Low-Level Laser Therapy (LLLT) for Tinnitus — Experiences (Dr. Wilden, etc.)

[bwspot]

I know that it is a lot of money. I've been on the fence about buying it for a while too. However, I've finally decided to give Dr. Wilden's laser a chance. I really want to be proactive and try to regain some of my hearing loss. I've read a few success stories on this site and they have made me feel more comfortable about making the purchase. I will be posting my audiogram before I start the treatment and then while I'm being treated. If you'd like, you could wait to see my progress before you make the purchase. The only problem with that is time. Most people don't get results until a few months after using the laser. I don't know if you really want to wait that long or not.

Yes I am also worried that waiting is not good and it's better to kick start ASAP. Wife is laughing at me as she thinks this is a scam but she has no idea what fun the ringing in the ears is. When did you buy it?

 

[bwspot]

You do not decruasse T if you don´t gain hearing, the questions is always if the gainning is enouph.

I said here already, that maybe starting with Dr Wilden would not be the best. I started there and have him in greta consideretion and of corse if I feel better now, I own him everyhthing. But as most of us do live in tight budget. I would recombed you the folwing.
Consider a trip to Norway to Anne Harilla clinic, there you will have 5 sessões with really high power laser, to you would know right there if LLLT works for you, Then for 1500 USD you can buy a more power laser from China. The brand is called Lucky laser, Anne use them and is the one I´m using. maybe you will spend a little more money that 3000 USD ( depende on price flights ) but that way you know right away if LLLT will work or not before spending 3000 USD.

Once again , I do not want to say that is better tretating T with Anne Harilla as Dr Wilden, this advice is only based, on what you can do with same amount of money.

When you have a chance and if you canor want, can we see your audigram.
Sheers

I posted it here
https://www.tinnitustalk.com/threads/audiogram-and-test-results.7623/

 

[Nick J.]

That might be a good idea although accommodation and flight might cost a lot. How much are her treatments? Is audiogram part of her sessions? Dr. Wilden claims that his laser is special when it comes to the treatment.

She charge 120€ for a hole day of high dose laser!
Wilden charge 200€ for 30min. on each ear.
Audiogram is not part of it.

His laser is no more speciel then the 1500$ laser Fernando has now!
In fact i would swap mine with fernandos any day.
But his laser is good.. The price is just not.

 

[attheedgeofscience]

Wilden charge 200€ for 30min. on each ear.

Just so it is clear here (to everyone): Dr. Wilden charges €200,- for 60 min. of therapy in total (which includes 30 min. LLLT left/right ear - or any combination inbetween, eg. 15 min. left, 45 min. right).

(The way I read your post left me with the potential impression that the cost would be €200,- for each ear ie. €400,- for the total therapy of 60 min.).

 

[briano]

Yes I am also worried that waiting is not good and it's better to kick start ASAP. Wife is laughing at me as she thinks this is a scam but she has no idea what fun the ringing in the ears is. When did you buy it?

I'll be purchasing it tomorrow. I don't believe that it is a scam. I think that I'd rather try something than to just wait for a cure. I will keep all of you posted on my progress.

 

[tomm]

I emailed the company selling the full unit - they said the lens on the front could be removed which I'm guessing would widen the beam a little.

Tempted to try it - do we think 650nm is a decent starting point?

 

[dboy]

I see ateos must be busy so anyone else has any thoughts?

I bought the old version of this Lux Spa Laser secondhand (from a chap who posted on here) in November and have been using it since the end of November (without any high dose clinic treatment). No benefits to my tinnitus yet. I sometimes think my hearing might be slightly better, but nothing conclusive. Will not get an audiogram until my next ENT appointment.

Before buying this I spent a week or two experimenting with a cheap 650nm 50mW laser unit. I didn't feel too confident with the effectiveness of how I was pointing this at my head, and wanted the 'in ear' model so I knew the light was going to the right place. I am planning to make an 'in ear' version of my own soon with a bit more power than the 30mW one (keep putting this project off but will get there).

I think from memory Hansi Cross got good results with his MLS/Lux Spa laser, and then went for clinic treatment later. You could check his blog on it for details.

http://www.progressrec.com/curing-tinnitus.html

Personally, I suspect that I need more power and will be looking to sell my unit soon. Hope this helps.

 

[bwspot]

She charge 120€ for a hole day of high dose laser!
Wilden charge 200€ for 30min. on each ear.
Audiogram is not part of it.

His laser is no more speciel then the 1500$ laser Fernando has now!
In fact i would swap mine with fernandos any day.
But his laser is good.. The price is just not.

Flight to Norway 700$. Accommodation I am not sure? Do you know any good cheap hotels there?
120€*5 = 600€ = 707$. So assuming I can accommodate for 100€ a day * 5 = 589$
The whole trip would cost me around 2500 with food and I get 5 days of treatment against two years of laser with support from Dr. Wilden. Hard to make a decision.

 

[bwspot]

this doc:
http://www.ata.org/sites/ata.org/fi...Devices/lowlevel_laser_therapy_fact_sheet.pdf

says:
"
Advanced Energy Medicine reports it achieves the greatest success with older tinnitus patients. In their
literature, they explain that younger patients often have tinnitus caused by acoustic trauma (loud music, work-
related loud noise, etc.).They say that the resulting organic defects of the structure of the inner ear that come
from such trauma cannot be cured by their laser therapies.
"

Edit: Does this company even exist?

 

[bwspot]

I bought the old version of this Lux Spa Laser secondhand (from a chap who posted on here) in November and have been using it since the end of November (without any high dose clinic treatment). No benefits to my tinnitus yet. I sometimes think my hearing might be slightly better, but nothing conclusive. Will not get an audiogram until my next ENT appointment.

Before buying this I spent a week or two experimenting with a cheap 650nm 50mW laser unit. I didn't feel too confident with the effectiveness of how I was pointing this at my head, and wanted the 'in ear' model so I knew the light was going to the right place. I am planning to make an 'in ear' version of my own soon with a bit more power than the 30mW one (keep putting this project off but will get there).

I think from memory Hansi Cross got good results with his MLS/Lux Spa laser, and then went for clinic treatment later. You could check his blog on it for details.

http://www.progressrec.com/curing-tinnitus.html

Personally, I suspect that I need more power and will be looking to sell my unit soon. Hope this helps.

thx for the blog info, interesting story

 

[FERNANDO GIL]

this doc:
http://www.ata.org/sites/ata.org/fi...Devices/lowlevel_laser_therapy_fact_sheet.pdf

says:
"
Advanced Energy Medicine reports it achieves the greatest success with older tinnitus patients. In their
literature, they explain that younger patients often have tinnitus caused by acoustic trauma (loud music, work-
related loud noise, etc.).They say that the resulting organic defects of the structure of the inner ear that come
from such trauma cannot be cured by their laser therapies.
"

Edit: Does this company even exist?

Coming out ATA ????
That´s nice

 

[FERNANDO GIL]

Hi all.
As I said last month I sold my laser to a portuguese women, that it´s here in Norway with me for a 6 day treatment.
this is the laser,
http://lux-spa-ibiza.com/index.php/...ssory-for-the-lux-spa-home-laser-by-dr-wilden

She did made an audiogram on the 8th. Jan. I´m attaching here it now. Please check the differences from last year to the new audiogram. She started LLLT on the 8th December 2014. So it´s a month time.

She gain up to 25 db in some frequencies.

Hope this help for those who still are in doubt, and give hope to the ones that are starting the laser.
Sheers all

 

[FERNANDO GIL]

I can accommodate for 100€ a day * 5 = 589$

Anne can book you in Gusest hose for 60 euro. but will not change that much.
Consider buying this one from Dr Wilden then. Is no practical as the Lucy, but more power.
Is the one I bought and Ateos.
yo can save some money there.
http://lux-spa-ibiza.com/index.php/...ssory-for-the-lux-spa-home-laser-by-dr-wilden

 

[bwspot]

Anne can book you in Gusest hose for 60 euro. but will not change that much.
Consider buying this one from Dr Wilden then. Is no practical as the Lucy, but more power.
Is the one I bought and Ateos.
yo can save some money there.
http://lux-spa-ibiza.com/index.php/...ssory-for-the-lux-spa-home-laser-by-dr-wilden

yep seems like the way to go unless Anne can do more for me in initial treatment?
Can you nicely ask her what would be a better path?
Start with Wilden laser and later see her or the opposite or just to the laser only?

 

[FERNANDO GIL]

Start with Wilden laser and later see her or the opposite or just to the laser only?

I fell sooner or later, you will need a more power session, and you will want to make it. I know Dr widen will want to sell you the more expensive laser, but i did well with the pen. Is more power 80 Mw, but less comfortable. With the Lucy yo can use it and keep doing other things. With the pen laser yo need to hold it with your hands during all time of the treatment.

If you just have money for one option, I advise you to buy the laser, and do treatment later, you can save 1200 USD if you buy the pen laser instead of the Lucy Laser, but is a decision of yours.
I feel yo have all the info now.

Sheers

 

[Nick J.]

Just so it is clear here (to everyone): Dr. Wilden charges €200,- for 60 min. of therapy in total (which includes 30 min. LLLT left/right ear - or any combination inbetween, eg. 15 min. left, 45 min. right).

(The way I read your post left me with the potential impression that the cost would be €200,- for each ear ie. €400,- for the total therapy of 60 min.).

Yea i guees u are right! It could be misunderstood.
Still doesen't change the fact its waaay to expensive for most pll.

 

[tomm]

Anyone who's going, get an independent audiogram (up to high 16-20kHz if possible) before you go, and when you are done.

By independent, I mean not the person who is doing the treatment.

 

[bwspot]

I bought the old version of this Lux Spa Laser secondhand (from a chap who posted on here) in November and have been using it since the end of November (without any high dose clinic treatment). No benefits to my tinnitus yet. I sometimes think my hearing might be slightly better, but nothing conclusive. Will not get an audiogram until my next ENT appointment.

Before buying this I spent a week or two experimenting with a cheap 650nm 50mW laser unit. I didn't feel too confident with the effectiveness of how I was pointing this at my head, and wanted the 'in ear' model so I knew the light was going to the right place. I am planning to make an 'in ear' version of my own soon with a bit more power than the 30mW one (keep putting this project off but will get there).

I think from memory Hansi Cross got good results with his MLS/Lux Spa laser, and then went for clinic treatment later. You could check his blog on it for details.

http://www.progressrec.com/curing-tinnitus.html

Personally, I suspect that I need more power and will be looking to sell my unit soon. Hope this helps.

So i read his story and his experiences sometimes are scary.
T goes up and freaks out. Is this really a case for everyone using laser?

 

[bwspot]

I fell sooner or later, you will need a more power session, and you will want to make it. I know Dr widen will want to sell you the more expensive laser, but i did well with the pen. Is more power 80 Mw, but less comfortable. With the Lucy yo can use it and keep doing other things. With the pen laser yo need to hold it with your hands during all time of the treatment.

If you just have money for one option, I advise you to buy the laser, and do treatment later, you can save 1200 USD if you buy the pen laser instead of the Lucy Laser, but is a decision of yours.
I feel yo have all the info now.

Sheers

how lumomed differs from Lux spa device? I see lumomed does more frequencies.
http://www.lumomed.de/index.php?lang=en

 

[bwspot]

Did anyone have any success with tinitool? would it be worth to start with it as a cheaper version of laser or its not powerful enough and is full waste of money?

 

[FERNANDO GIL]

Did anyone have any success with tinitool? would it be worth to start with it as a cheaper version of laser or its not powerful enough and is full waste of money?

Tinnitol is a total waste of money.
You huld consider the one I bought in China.

http://www.lucky-laser.com/productview.php?id=LK-COMBI

It´s 650nm /120 Mw and a 808 nm/900 Mw one probe only of each frequency. With this yo will have a good laser for a better price.

The owner is lady called Lulu.
Here is her mail luckylaser@vip.163.com

The cost is 1500$ + 158$ shipping costs.
Just to tell you that they don't have laser in stock,, they buil it according to the orders. So you will have to wait a few days to get it.

Fernando

 

[nogood]

lol i was tempted to, i goggled around managed to find some things.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/MITSUBISHI-658nm-660nm-300-400mw-CW-Red-Laser-Diode-LPC-826-/110896818957

more or less the exact frequency.

And a simple driver circuit for the diode - lm317 suggested by one of the laser hobbyist, and a lens to defuse the laser beam to wide spot. [ i strongly warn against concentrated beam ]
0.5v @ 120ma would roughly give 50mw which is good enough for starters.

[ aixiz seems to be famous ]

as for assembling a nice ear plug or some sort, plastimake or instamorph



I am trying dyi approach simply cause of cost constraints and due to taxes and stuff for importing any goods which are so expensive. Plus i was hobbyist and studied electrical engineering, building stuff is not new me.

I emailed the company selling the full unit - they said the lens on the front could be removed which I'm guessing would widen the beam a little.

Tempted to try it - do we think 650nm is a decent starting point?

 

[dboy]

0.5v @ 120ma would roughly give 50mw which is good enough for starters.

In order to work I think you need 2.2v dropped across the laser diode (for this particular one you linked). I was looking at buying parts from the link below which sells cheap adjustable driver boards ready assembled.

http://odicforce.com/epages/05c54fb...b6-7778-4d36-adc0-0098b2af7c4e/Products/OFL61

The power of the LLLT devices is usually given based on the measured light output rather than the electrical parameters, since some electrical energy is lost as heat (inefficient conversion to light). So it is less straightforward to calculate the power of your homemade device. I guess you would get a rough idea though.

Hope this helps. If you go ahead then lets compare notes. Might give me the kick up the a**e that I need.

P.S. Some form of heatsinking might be needed so the diode does not get too hot inside the ear. My MLS laser has metal earpieces (looks like aluminium) surrounding the diode. These get warm but not hot. Presumably they conduct heat out of the ear. If you operate your laser diode well below its rated capacity then maybe it will be OK. Would need some experimenting I guess.

Look out for your eyes too. Maybe we need to get some protective eyewear.

 

[nogood]

I was using this graph as reference
http://i1223.photobucket.com/albums/dd510/rocket689/LPC-826plot.jpg

This is wht i intent to do.
The current and voltage are in reference to the light power out put based on graph.
offcourse it needs to be properly calibred.

In order to work I think you need 2.2v dropped across the laser diode (for this particular one you linked). I was looking at buying parts from the link below which sells cheap adjustable driver boards ready assembled.

http://odicforce.com/epages/05c54fb...b6-7778-4d36-adc0-0098b2af7c4e/Products/OFL61

The power of the LLLT devices is usually given based on the measured light output rather than the electrical parameters, since some electrical energy is lost as heat (inefficient conversion to light). So it is less straightforward to calculate the power of your homemade device. I guess you wouldget a rough idea though.

Hope this helps. If you go ahead then lets compare notes. Might give me the kick up the a**e that I need.

 

[dboy]

The current and voltage are in reference to the light power out put based on graph.

Ahhh. I did not see that in the listing. Where did you find it?

The listing says '3.Operation Voltage <2.2V'.

Edit: Found it on google.

 

[nogood]

From my understanding the graph is for concentrated beam so when using a diffuser or lens to create a wide spot the energy will definitely vary.
By rough calculation lets say 2mm circle is 100mw 2cm square is roughly 1/10th of the energy. More or less can calibrate with very rough estimate. I am looking into how to calculate the energy properly.

Ahhh. I did not see that in the listing. Where did you find it?

The listing says '3.Operation Voltage <2.2V'.

Edit: Found it on google.

 

[dboy]

From my understanding the graph is for concentrated beam so when using a diffuser or lens to create a wide spot the energy will definitely vary.

I bought this laser module to play with last November.

http://odicforce.com/epages/05c54fb...6-7778-4d36-adc0-0098b2af7c4e/Products/OFL211

That produces a naturally diffused beam if you take the lens off. I have been assuming that the beam from a laser diode is sufficiently diffused unless it is focussed by having a lens applied for that specific purpose. That said, here is a photo of the earpiece of my MLS laser. It does look like a lens is applied there.

 

[dboy]

Here is the beam of the cheap laser module without the focussing lens on.

 

[tomm]

Here is the beam of the cheap laser module without the focussing lens on.
View attachment 4673

That looks good. Pleased we have some engineers who know what they are talking about!

 

[dboy]

That looks good. Pleased we have some engineers who know what they are talking about!

I think your words apply to nogood, but sadly not to myself. I am a dabbler with just enough knowledge to be dangerous.