Low-Level Laser Therapy (LLLT) for Tinnitus — Experiences (Dr. Wilden, etc.)

[felinefine]

OK PLEASE HELP AGAIN! Thank you in advance!!

After all of this information, from @attheedgeofscience , @dboy , @FERNANDO GIL , ALL OF YOU (that I am not listing here), I am feeling like there is so much that I have learned, but so much that I cannot learn due to the fact that I am not a laser physician. It's becoming obvious that I may be able to learn a lot of valuable information here that will help guide me, and inform me on what is happening to the inner ear, what to "look for," why treatments work/don't work, etc., but I won't be able to learn everything that is needed in order to treat myself or teach my own current doctor to treat me (something he would be open to, and something I had hoped).

I am going to go to an LLLT clinic once I find one. I am broke, but family will support me to go if this is the last "hope" I have. I am very fortunate, and can't believe they will support me flying to Europe to get treatment in hopes that it "may" help me...feel so loved. I think a lot of it is because they know how much I have been trying to research, and how much information you all have provided, it is very kind of you all.

I know the obvious two best doctors are Dr. Wilden, and Dr. Anne (which one would you recommend? Or rather, if we are being "politically correct," which one has "seemed" to have the most success) out of these two? Also, I think lasers work by stimulating the ear to heal itself, but in a way, it is slightly damaging it in order to signal healing cells, right? So maybe this is why Dr. Wilden suggests a lower powered laser for daily home use, vs. Dr. Anne suggesting a higher powered laser for home use? Why do they have differing opinions on this?

Secondly, are there any people here in the states that practice LLLT therapy for ear problems? I have been doing searches for practitioners with not too much success. I have called many of them after thinking I found a candidate, but I am finding that most use LLLT therapy for acupuncture points, addiction problems, and "back pain," for instance, but not specifically for ear problems.

Thank you so much...

 

[attheedgeofscience]

but I won't be able to learn everything that is needed in order to treat myself or teach my own current doctor to treat me (something he would be open to, and something I had hoped).

There is no better place to practice medicine than in the human laboratory. Financially speaking, travelling to Europe to get +10 days of treatment would easily equal or exceed the cost of buying your own clinic grade laser. I have not seen your audiograms, but in my experience, results (= tinnitus improvements) from laser therapy take a while. High quality laser therapy at home is therefore a really worthwhile alternative (as opposed to going to a clinic).

I believe there are very few - if any - studies that are able to document an improvement in tinnitus (from LLLT). However - and this is a big shame - none of those (many) studies ever used high dosage and/or long-term protocols (to the best of my knowledge). Which essentially means that the verdict on LLLT is still unsettled. The main reason I am "sort of" advocating LLLT is because it clearly improves hearing thresholds and there appears to be anecdotal evidence of the therapy helping tinnitus patients (particularly patients with Menieres disease).

I do not recommend anyone to run a financial risk with unproven treatments (something I have clearly stated in my first post to you = the link). But sometimes people want to go and do their own thing (like me). What you should have done - in my opinion - was to try to get enrolled in AM-101 to begin with after your onset (since you are based in the US). I did not have that opportunity, for instance.

I do not really see why you need your doctors help with this. If you want to do it, then go ahead on your own. I do think, however, that he seems pretty "cool" in being willing to learn. So if you were to buy the equipment, bring it along, and let him treat you for a couple of sessions (ear canal + behind the ear). "Play around" with protocols while slowly increasing the dosage. The angle of the beam can be hard to get right - and so this is where a doctor can be of help. If he does not know how to treat the inner ear (= angle of laser beam), then this is something he will have to do a bit of research on, however...

Follow-up with audiograms is then essential after 5 to 10 days, and then again after another 10 days in order to ensure that you are responding to the therapy. I managed to do 7 audiograms in 8 weeks! My most treasured (medical) assests ever...

I feel I have said what I wanted to say. This is the Internet; lots of people weigh in with their input; you are going to have to figure out whom you want to trust the most. If anyone...

 

[amandine]

@attheedgeofscience

i understood that LLLT gave you approximately 20 per cent reduction. Would that be right?
Doing it on your own or with an untrained doctor sounds highly dangerous to me - what if the individual gets the angle wrong or does it too strong laser for too long at wrong angle.....? isnt that dangerous?

 

[felinefine]

Thank you for your input @attheedgeofscience

I realize there aren't trials on everything. Honestly, the most success I have had with my prior health issues came from things that did not have "success" i.e. there were not many studies to back it up. I got a lot of slack from people. I made mistakes grasping for "snake oil" a few times, but learned to pick some of the better eggs as time went on.

For instance, I had extreme myalgic encephalomyelitis, was deemed incurable and MS progression. I was not getting better, and had tried everything doctors were telling me to do. However, I took matters into my own hands, and after several months of using a home mild hyperbaric oxygen chamber, I have improved extensively, am working again, and continue to improve to this day. I would not be here without it, 100%. Does this work for everyone? No, probably not, but it made sense to me, and it was worth it.

It all came from meeting someone online, just like this. She was smart and provided me a lot of information, in addition to the information I was already doing on my own. She did the therapy, and it helped her tremendously. We are now wonderful friends, and I am thankful to have her in my life. I jumped on board because it was a "gut" instinct, and because of my research, and though there was not much information available, it showed promise. I had nothing to lose other than finances that, in my opinion, it was extremely worth it.

I realize LLLT may not be for everyone. I am willing to give it a shot though because my ear symptoms are very distressing and I may still be in the "earlier" stages if nerves take up to 18 months to repair (I am at 6 months after acoustic trauma as I write). If I show no improvement with this therapy, so be it. BUT if I do not do anything, or if I do not try, I will regret it absolutely. It is absolutely 100 percent worth it to me.

However, I do not know what laser to purchase (you mentioned purchasing a high powered laser, vs. a home laser, or rather in addition to). The laser I have researched and posted pictures of above says PPEK 100W, does this mean it is 100 W at its peak power? It can't be this much, because it is a cold laser, but it is not 100 mW, so I do not know what it is. I have also tried calling a laser company that sells this laser, but have not heard back.

I know there is no promise with anything, but @attheedgeofscience if you were in my position, what would you do? I do not stress much about the tinnitus as much, as it is mild, but rather the other symptoms of fullness and the inability to equalize my ear. Every time I speak it sounds odd on that side of my head. You have done a lot of research. I realize I need to make my own decision here, but please, if you can offer onsite on what laser I should be treated with, based on what you have read (I realize you are not a doctor, I realize this is very new and whatever you say is based on what you have read and your interpretation) (anyway, class 3B, a certain brand? should I make sure it is both infrared and red? and a home treatment laser-Anne's or Wilden's?). These are the things I am working with, and no doctor can help me with this information, I am simply trying to pick your brain from your experiences and research, do my own research, and then make my own decision.

Thank you, your opinions are helpful. I really hope you respond...

 

[felinefine]

Also, yes, personally I cannot afford treatment, but my family can. I hate asking for help, but I finally did and they are happy to help even with something that may not be proven, and that in the end may not improve my symptoms.

I do not think it is smart to jump in on things that are "unproven" per say, but I also do not think that anyone should take their doctor's advice on things that "are" proven, if it does not make sense to you. Getting multiple opinions and doing your own research is essential if you have a chronic health issue, otherwise you do have a higher risk of not getting well. Doctors are humans, just like anyone else. They only learn what is taught to them in medical school. Some go on to continue their own learning on their own time. Unfortunately, some do not (it is not their fault, they have families, things to do, and lives of their own to live).

Hundreds of thousands of patients die every year from taking drugs/doing treatments in the correct way ...the way their doctor has been taught to administer them, which is why it is so important to be an informed patient (something I had to learn the hard way when my life changed as an energetic, extremely healthy and fit 21 year old, to a bedridden patient with no real help-like I said before though, this has changed!) I have been enlightened by the fact that many options exist in the world which are not discussed very often, yet sometimes can (yet not always of course) be very effective. Like many have already discussed, politics and self interests have unfortunately gotten in the way of science, and good medicine at times. I have seen it way too often...it breaks my heart. BUT, there are good doctors out there, and good patients that can provide wonderful information. It is just a hard search!

Thank you for your thoughts @attheedgeofscience , I hope you continue sharing your information, because it is invaluable.

Many of you have been very well-read and very helpful.

Thank you...really.

 

[FERNANDO GIL]

Has anyone contacted Dr WIlden using his contact form which you complete giving details of your problems ie tinnitus and email and then send your audiogram by email attachment (or fax or post) to Dr Wildens offices. It is then advised to phone 2 days later.
Just wondered if anyone has done this and did it work well? Did they receive and did they respond?

The best way is call him.
He allways answered my calls.
00 34 605 215 906, call him explain and then send him the mail or fax. It will be faster.

 

[attheedgeofscience]

Thank you, your opinions are helpful. I really hope you respond...

I don't have a medical background. I don't comment on medical issues. But I will (try) to do so this one time.

Acoustic trauma can fall into several sub categories (potentially). There is a difference between getting exposed to two hours of loud noise at a concert and then getting exposed to a flare gun right next to your head (as is the case with you, I think). It is possible to damage the eardrum from the pressure wave alone in the latter case. There might therefore be (minor) structural damage as well as nerve damage in your case (ie. an involvement of both the middle and inner ear). This may show up as a structural deficit on the audiogram (bone vs air conduction test); probably it didn't in your case since the ENTs would already have spotted it I would assume...

You therefore need to see an ENT about it (for another visual examination of your eardrum). If this has proven futile in the past, then contemplate seeing an otology professor for a thorough examination. Explain what happened, your exact symptoms and what you believe is wrong.

Once you have ruled out all possible fixable causes of your fullness in the ears and voice distortion, then you can proceed with other ideas (eg. clinical trials and/or LLLT). If you upload your audiogram, I will take a look.

Since your main problem is not the tinnitus, enrolling in AM-101 or possibly OTO-311 is not the first concern. However, OTO-311 (the trial) is another possibility which (should) be going ahead in the near future. OTO-311 targets chronic cochlear tinnitus.

It is also possible to have a visual inspection of your eustachian tube (done via the nose), but this would require some kind of indication which warrants that (eg. abnormal tympanometry exam...). And probably that's not the case since the ENTs would already have spotted such a basic finding (I would hope).

Finally, consider at least investigating if it is possible to claim damages from the person who caused your injury.

 

[FERNANDO GIL]

I know the obvious two best doctors are Dr. Wilden, and Dr. Anne (which one would you recommend? Or rather, if we are being "politically correct," which one has "seemed" to have the most success) out of these two? Also, I think lasers work by stimulating the ear to heal itself, but in a way, it is slightly damaging it in order to signal healing cells, right? So maybe this is why Dr. Wilden suggests a lower powered laser for daily home use, vs. Dr. Anne suggesting a higher powered laser for home use? Why do they have differing opinions on this?

Ok.
First of all, good you manage to go ahead with the treatment. The final cure is not and will not be promissed even from Dr Wilden or Anne. Mostly as I said it will depende a lot on your "life style".
After the tretament and till the end of your days AVOID NOISE, and USE EAR PLUGS AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE. Other way you will be wasting your time and money. Remember all the time it takes time and effort.

The diference of Dr Wilden and Anne. Dr Wilden maybe one of the biggest experts in treating the T with LLLT, he devoted all is life to the ear problems. Anne is one of the most experts in the world in LLLT treatments, but she does not treat T only. If you go there, and complain about anything else,for sure she will pick up a laser and make you a tretamnent( no extra charge).

Booth of them say you should use a home laser. Since Anne is all about LLLT and for sure more experience in Laser treatment than Dr Wilden, she thinks a little extra power is no problem. But she says to much is no good. I´m going there in a week time and she said I should stop the home laser during next week before and should not have any after the treatment at least for 10 days.

I do recomende Anne, and the only reason is that you will get more for less. The two of them did treat many people with T so they know what they do in there own way. But Dr Wilden charge 200€ for one hour, and Anne charge 120 € for 4 /5 hours a day tretament, You will get at least 5 diferent wavelenghts during each day of the tretament.

About the laser you should purchase?
Anne does not sell any. Wille I was there I saw she used one from Lucky Laser. So I wanted the same.
The reason is easy, You get two wavelenghts, 650nm and 808 nm, and can regulate the power and time. The Lucky laser is not considered a home laser, it´s already a clinic laser. It will cost you 1500 USD Fob China. It will be coming inside a protective box.

Hope you got some more imput to take your final decision. The LLLT treatment is diferent from person to person. The reaction is diferent in time from person to person. And remember is not a treatment were they say take a pill every 8 hours. With time you will learn about it and how your body/ears react to the treatment.


All the best
Sheers

 

[FERNANDO GIL]

ATEOS, say is not a doctor?.......is the best ENT I ever talked with.
All the best to you and happy new year.

 

[felinefine]

wow... thank you so much for your help, both of you.

@attheedgeofscience

• I have attached my hearing tests from August 22, 2014 (about 1.5 months after the trauma). It doesn't look like I had a bone and air conduction test? I'm glad you mentioned. Online I saw that these brackets on samples of audiogram, looking something like[ ] that are used to detect these measurements? I don't see them on my test...

• I think your right in the possibility of structural damage. I worry about scarring, because I don't exactly know what this means, or how this could be corrected if that is also part of the problem. Maybe LLLT helps to reduce scarring? I know it helps with keloids at least. Anyway, I feel a difference in that ear due to the "blowing up a balloon" effect when I try to lightly blow my ears by holding my nose. This ear responds poorly)

• I will be seeing another ENT on January 8th. I found him because some of his reviews says that he looks "outside of the box," which may be really important in this case. I'll suggest that he check my eustacian tubes (yes I know, you would have thought that the other ENT's checked this. I don't believe they did this test however, as it seems like when the ENT looks for these problems they have you hold your nose and swallow while they look at each ear??-this is what I read online, I could be wrong...) Apparently my tympanometry test was normal, but I will have him do it again, assuming he has this equipment. Do you know of any side effects from looking at the eustacian tube via the nose? I assume there are some, just wondering if you considered this for yourself too. I'll also get his thoughts on possibly what could have happened as well, and I'll have him look at my eardrum. Ok, an otology professor, I'll look for one, this is an interesting thought. So someone who teaches about ear disorders? This was one of the ENTs that I saw. h.usnews.com/doctors/wade-chien-631544 He was one of the nicer ones, and did not dismiss me. He was a little rushed, but was still kind. Am I looking for someone else like this (an ENT-otolaryngologist?)

• Ok I'll be on the lookout for OTO-311 trials, this is great.

• Claiming damages, I have thought of this. If I get to that point, I may decide to go through the trouble if it helps with paying for some of these treatments.

• So it's possible I am having a chronic inflammatory response, a thinned eardrum (from losing the inner 3rd layer of the eardrum skin), and/or damaged ear cells that are not able to properly distribute the fluid in my ear after the osmosis processes have kicked in, like you had mentioned in another post where someone was complaining of ear fullness. The damaged ear is slightly retracted, as one ENT had noticed. Others did not mention this. So the pressure must be not distributed correctly in the bad ear..?

@FERNANDO GIL

Thank you, you went to see both doctors, didn't you? I think I remember reading in your posts that at one point when you saw Dr. Wilden, he requested that you go to Dr. Anne for a different kind of treatment that was higher pressure. Tell me if I am wrong about that. So you are thinking that if I saw Dr. Anne and had other ear problems (other than T) she may be able to help more by using a different laser in addition, where Dr. Wilden may stick to the same protocol? They both seem wonderful, and it's good to hear your take. Or, were you talking about with other health issues (not related to my ear)? Wow Anne charges 120 for 4/5 hours a day? That's incredible. Does she just set up the lasers for you and leave the room?

Ok I did not know the Lucky Laser was not technically a home laser. Are you the only one that you know of, and that Anne knows of, who has purchased this laser for home therapy? It's wonderful that it has both frequencies (and the frequencies seem to be the best level-not too high, or too little, so that they are most efficient? That's great that you are able to regulate the power. So you can also make it a lower level, similar to the lasers that Dr. Wilden uses for home therapy? The reason why I thought having a laser like this at home for daily use may be problematic, is because usually lasers work by stimulating an area in the body (slightly injuring it) to then allow the body to heal itself. I think of it like the lasers people use on their face for wrinkles/acne scars/etc. The laser makes the skin irritated, scab up in places, and then underneath the body produces new, healthier-looking skin.

I think of the LLLT lasers doing this (described above), on a much lower level. Is this a correct way in thinking? If so, then maybe over time a laser, even a cold laser, can possibly be bad for the ear over time if being used at a high level (like you said that Anne had said). AGAIN BUT, if the laser can be switched to a lower level, you are right, it's definitely the best option for home use. What level are you using at home with the Lucky Laser, what did Anne suggest for you at least? What about you @attheedgeofscience , what do you think? I also like the fact that it has the two laser pens that you can direct on certain parts of the ear (on the eardrum, behind the ear, on the neck where the ear muscles are attached, etc. Perhaps it can help with other inflammatory processes/irritants that are happening in those areas, possibly triggering further ear problems as well.

Thank you...

 

[Kevin08]

I had laser treatment for nerve damage about 5 years ago. I believe it helped reduce phantom nerve pain that I received due to a dental injury. I'm not sure if anyone has posted this study http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3063436/
Looks like it could have some merit in treating tinnitus too. I will add this to my list of things to try.
Kevin

 

[attheedgeofscience]

I have attached my hearing tests from August 22, 2014 (about 1.5 months after the trauma). It doesn't look like I had a bone and air conduction test? I'm glad you mentioned. Online I saw that these brackets on samples of audiogram, looking something like[ ] that are used to detect these measurements? I don't see them on my test...

The bone conduction test was done. Your hearing is considered normal by current audiology standards (ie. normal hearing = 0 - 25 db, for adults). Dr. Wilden, however, prefers that audiology results comes back within the 0-10 db range for at least the entire speech frequency range, 0 - 8 kHz. By that standard, you are beginning to show a slight loss towards the higher end of the range. If you had had an extended exam, you would probably find a loss of 25 to 30db at eg. 12,5 kHz (and that's where "things" begin to go wrong according to the inner ear specialist).

I'll also get his thoughts on possibly what could have happened as well, and I'll have him look at my eardrum. Ok, an otology professor, I'll look for one, this is an interesting thought. So someone who teaches about ear disorders?

An highly qualified MD within the otology field, is what I meant.

Do you know of any side effects from looking at the eustacian tube via the nose?

Well... it's done under full anesthesia, so that would be one "side-effect" if you like.

Don't know - as I said, I don't have a medical background; so best to discuss that with the medical folks who know (much) more about it than I do.

So the pressure must be not distributed correctly in the bad ear..?

Whatever it is that bothers you, that is for an MD to determine; not me.

I think of it like the lasers people use on their face for wrinkles/acne scars/etc. The laser makes the skin irritated, scab up in places, and then underneath the body produces new, healthier-looking skin.

The lasers used in dermatology (for skin rejuvenation) are a different type. Cold lasers do not harm body tissue when used correctly and for the correct duration.

At this stage, I feel I have shared (all) that I know. Good luck.

 

[FERNANDO GIL]

Wow Anne charges 120 for 4/5 hours a day? That's incredible. Does she just set up the lasers for you and leave the room?

More or less, but if you like to talk, she will seat right next to you have a chat as well. We even went out for dinner. So it all depends if the clinic is full of patineis or not. But you will feel like home for sure.

healthier-looking skin.

Ask her and try, if you go ahead whithn this laser. If you use skype you can chat with Anne as well, give her your reaction to the treatment so you feliing secure about you are doing.

possibly triggering further ear problems as well.

LLLT will do you no arm, is completely safe tretament if used carefull. Looks like you afraid, but don´t be. You can start slow and gain confidente and then you can rise the power to a certain point where you feel confartable. As I said with time you will know what to do and go with your fellings as "Dr Wilden" says.

What level are you using at home with the Lucky Lase

650 nm at 120Mw and 808 at 450Mw

Sheers

 

[dboy]

OK PLEASE HELP AGAIN! Thank you in advance!!

After all of this information, from @attheedgeofscience , @dboy , @FERNANDO GIL , ALL OF YOU (that I am not listing here), I am feeling like there is so much that I have learned, but so much that I cannot learn due to the fact that I am not a laser physician.

Sorry for late reply - been away from the internet this weekend. There is not anything really I can add to what has been said by the much more knowledgable ATEOS and Fernando Gil. Except to wish you the best luck possible in getting the outcome you are hoping for.

 

[CarrieLee]

Hi @FERNANDO GIL ,@Nick J.

I have been using LLLT treatments for two months and have gone to Dr. Wilden son practice in Barden Barden for 11 sessions in October. I felt an improvement in last two months and a lot of time I don't even notice it. Recently, the T volume increases and it is leaves hustling sound along with a high pitch sound. Is that positive? Do you guys experience the same thing? I read about the success story about @HelmutK and decided to give it a try. I would like to exchange emails with you to share experiences. I appreciate very much for your reply. Thank you!

 

[FERNANDO GIL]

I have been using LLLT treatments for two months and have gone to Dr. Wilden son practice in Barden Barden for 11 sessions in October. I felt an improvement in last two months and a lot of time I don't even notice it. Recently, the T volume increases and it is leaves hustling sound along with a high pitch sound. Is that positive?

Hi @CarrieLee
Nice you came on board.
First I would like to see if it´s possible for you to share your audiograms, Is not that I have any reason to doubt about you. But this way everything is registered and any future improvements on your earing can be seen by any person in this fórum. Trust me a lot will doubt about that.

Usualy when the T goes up, mens regeneration and after the there will be some calm days. I compare the reducing of T as going down the strairs. Too down one up, and so on. Your T gets worst before getting better, Two weeks I had really good days, then T went up after , today I could say it was one of my best days ever. So do not count with a linear improvement, it will be up and downs.

What I think , is that the sound changed, it became a high pitch. That mens your high frequencies are now starting to react to the tretament. So something is happening, and usual in LLLT that is a good sign.

Keep us posted
, and all the best.

 

[attheedgeofscience]

I would like to exchange emails with you to share experiences.

Consider doing it via the forum.

Sharing experiences, that is - not the e-mails.

 

[FERNANDO GIL]

Hi,
as a LLLT user I'm still sceptical about this therapy. If it would be a really successful therapy, why isn't there
a seriouse double blind study available? Instead of forcing a study, many of the sellers tell you about conspiracy of the pharma against LLLT. It has some parallels to homeopathy. You won't find any successful double blind study, instead of proof you will also find many conspiracy stories.
The concept of LLLT sounds very interesting, but there should be more interests to make some seriouse studies instead of selling overpriced devices to desperated people like us.
Why should we pay 3000 US Dollars for 2 diodes of 30mW? Do you really think 2 diodes,2 fibercables,1 timer, 1 display and a simple integraded circuit costs that much? It's more like, get the most out of it in a financial aspect.

Greets Tom

http://www.rj-laser.com/english/laser_therapy_tinnitus.htm

 

[FERNANDO GIL]

is laser therapy available in usa?

Maybe if yuu contact one of this.
Try, maybe they know someone.
Dr. Jospeh Purita, famous stem cells doctor from Florida/ USA on the potential of laser therapy:

There is no doubt that lasers are taking on increasing importance in the Stem Cell field. Those doctors who say that light therapy still has no good evidence in the field of stem cells mechanics are either not well informed or misinformed. The use of a laser comb for treatment of hair loss is now widely accepted. There is strong scientific evidence of the mechanism of lasers and their effects on stem cells.
I knew for years that light therapy was extremely important in stem cell therapy. I have utilized it for p was I could not discover what I thought was a laser system which would actually achieve the results which I sought. I was concerned that there would be adequate penetration of the laser light and secondly I wanted a system which would give me flexibility.
I finally found the laser which is produced by Weber Medical Systems. I have met Dr. Weber and look forward to working with him. I will be utilizing this laser in three different methods namely acupuncture, intravenous, and intra-articular. The different fibers represent different colors. Certain colors achieve various effects. For instance, a blue laser can help reduce inflammation. While a red light can help accomplish repair.
Sometimes what we will also do is what is called an interstitial acupuncture laser treatment. We must realize the there is an inherent problem with the laser. It has difficulty going thru the skin. After about two mm. of thickness the power of the laser is reduced by 75%. Skin color is also a problem in that it can hamper laser penetration. However, with interstitial laser therapy a canula is inserted into the tissue near the area of injury. Thus we are attacking the problem in a two prong approach. We utilize laser therapy and acupuncture.
These forms of laser acupuncture are quite exciting to me, however the next two forms of laser treatment are what excite me the most. The first one which I will briefly discuss is intraarticular laser therapy. This is where a laser fiber is placed sterility into the joint. Once the fiber is in the joint then laser treatment can be instituted. This is light years ahead of the typical laser treatment on a joint. This type of treatment has to be performed by a medical professional who is familiar with joint anatomy and capable of placing a canula into the joint. You are essentially placing the laser right where it is needed. We can see that the laser is actually in the knee joint. In this case we are seeing the red laser which is very important in healing articular damage from for instance osteoarthritis. In times of acute inflammation we might start with a different color such as the blue light which is very important for reducing inflammation. We feel that the intra-articular laser will be a very positive adjunct to our treatment of various joint afflictions.
The last type of new laser treatment is perhaps the most exciting one. This type of treatment involves using the laser in an intravenous (IV) mode. What we are doing in this case is introducing a laser directly into the vein. What happens in this case is that the laser will interact with the venous blood. Typically the treatment that is given intravenously lasts about 20 minutes or so. It is recommended that a number of treatments be given. The IV mode may work on a few different levels. The laser light seems to have a profound effect on the mitochondria of the cells. It will cause a marked increase in the output of ATP from the mitochondria. ATP is essentially the cells' fuel. Without the ATP the cell will perish. The light will also help stimulate gene transcription. This means that certain genes which may have been shut off become activated and may cause the formation of certain bio-compounds necessary for cell function. Light also activates a compound called NF-kb. This is called Nuclear Factor kappa. This compound is very important in the production of DNA. One hugely significant aspect of IV laser therapy is that it can help release large amounts of Nitric Oxide (NO). NO is thought to be an extremely important signaling molecule in the body. It is known to be a growth, immune, and neuro-modulator as well as a potent stimulator of stem cell proliferation.
The above summary gives a good indication of all the beneficial aspects of laser therapy. One aspect that has not yet been addressed is the intravenous laser seems to be a significant stimulator of a potent stem cell in the blood. This stem cell is a number of different names. It is generally called a very small embryonic like stem cell. I have described these stem cells in other blogs. I consider these cells to be the body's emergency stem cell supply. They are present in large numbers but are essentially quiescent. They are present in very large number The IV laser seems to "wake them up". Some studies have already shown dramatic results with cells. These cells will become increasingly more important in the stem cell field. They are plentiful, easy to obtain, seem to have pluripotent potential and have found to be safe. I am sure there is more to come concerning all aspects of this blog.


Dr. Leon Reyfman, owner of two big orthopedic clinics in New York, USA on new interstitial laser therapy:

Pain Management Leader Pain Physicians NY Offers Groundbreaking Interstitial Laser Therapy

Innovative Treatment Reinvigorates Patients Suffering Chronic Pain
NEW YORK, NY / ACCESSWIRE / November 13, 2014 / Pain Physicians NY
(www.painphysiciansny.com) is announcing the latest, cutting-edge interstitial laser therapy for patients suffering from chronic pain due to tissue and joint injury. Physicians at Pain Physicians NY are board-certified pain specialists who have treated thousands of patients and are the first medical practice in the US to embrace the therapy. In studies all across Europe and the US over the past 25 years, interstitial laser therapy has been shown to consistently improve the comfort of people struggling from painful diseases. Using laser therapy, Pain Physicians NY has seen similar success in patients who suffer from conditions like heart disease, MS, depression, diabetes, liver and kidney disease. In addition, Interstitial laser therapy has been effective in managing pain from herniated discs, spinal stenosis, osteoarthritis, deep tendon inflammation, sprains, and the accumulation of scar tissue after surgery. As a result of the treatment, patients report improvements in many areas ranging from mood and sleep to cholesterol and metabolic rate.
"We have seen the treatment work very successfully in rehabilitative medicine," says Dr. Leon Reyfman, MD, RPh of Pain Physicians NY. "For example, laser therapy greatly enhances postoperative healing of fractures and wounds in our patients." Interstitial laser therapy works by stimulating the body's anti-inflammatory response while significantly promoting the healing of damaged tissue. Pain Physicians NY use interstitial laser therapy specifically because it is unique among laser therapies in being able to penetrate skin and muscle and interact directly with joints. The laser also stimulates white blood cells, boosting the immune system. The treatment is minimally invasive and requires no anesthesia. "For our patients who have undergone laser therapy, the reduction of pain is only one of the many beneficial aspects," explains Dr. Tamer Elbaz, the board-certified Pain Medicine and Anesthesiology specialist at Pain Physicians NY. "Among other immediate effects is the sustainable regeneration of tissue in the affected area."
Interstitial laser therapy is an innovative medical technology that has proven valuable in treating people suffering from chronically painful diseases. In striving to help its patients manage this debilitating pain using newly developed methods, Pain Physicians NY has chosen Interstitial laser therapy as its solution for alleviating symptoms, regenerating tissue, and reenergizing patients.

 

[CarrieLee]

Hi @FERNANDO GIL

Thank you for your quick reply. I have exchanged emails with Sam, Rebecca and another guy about the treatments. One guys told me he is actually T-free after using LLLT. It takes a while though (something like one and a half year to two years). When I asked him how long it took for him to be T free, he never responded. I guess he does not want me to have the expectation it can be T-Free after certain time and get nervous if I don't have the same result.

@attheedgeofscience

I like to share exercise on the forum, but I saw some very negative comments here which kind of deterring me from participating. Since I am still early on in my treatments, I don't want to get attacked by some people who have NOT even gone through the treatments themselves and start to criticize about LLLT. But I also appreciate so much someone like you, Gil and Nick are sharing their experiences to help people.

 

[Markku]

But I also appreciate so much someone like you, Gil and Nick are sharing their experiences to help people.

And if they shared their experiences in private, you would probably not have found us in the first place...

Public sharing is good and benefits more people.

 

[FERNANDO GIL]

When I asked him how long it took for him to be T free, he never responded

It´s normal, no one wants to creat false expectations.

I like to share exercise on the forum, but I saw some very negative comments here which kind of deterring me from participating. Since I am still early on in my treatments, I don't want to get attacked by some people who have NOT even gone through the treatments themselves and start to criticize about LLLT. But I also appreciate so much someone like you, Gil and Nick are sharing their experiences to help people.

After a wille you will get used, hehehehehe......

 

[CarrieLee]

@FERNANDO GIL

One question: Do you ever expect to be T-free after using LLLT? I have that high expectation and I know it is giving myself a lot of pressure. I was so happy when I experienced positive results after treatments. The recent T increase makes me feel I am going backward and a bit scared. Do you ever feel the same way? I tend to be more nervous when I have health problems. I hope it is normal to feel that way....

By the way, I also use acupuncture to help along the way to boost my overall health.

 

[FERNANDO GIL]

Hi,
yes, it's the Konftec Laser I'm using.

I know you disapointed with LLLT, but from what I got from Anne, some of the Konftec laser come with defect.
make favor to your self, call them say it´s broken and usual they gave you a new one. This was told me by Anne. She say they work good for at least one year, but many came with defect. This are the words from a top laser therapist in the world. You should had got some reaction from LLLT, maybe not stoping the T, but something should had happen.

Sheers.

 

[Nick J.]

What is the point you are trying to make dr.Nagler?

Please dont feed the troll.
This thread has been kept pretty informative the last couple of month!
It would be sad to see it derail from here.

Thx

 

[Nick J.]

@FERNANDO GIL

One question: Do you ever expect to be T-free after using LLLT? I have that high expectation and I know it is giving myself a lot of pressure. I was so happy when I experienced positive results after treatments. The recent T increase makes me feel I am going backward and a bit scared. Do you ever feel the same way? I tend to be more nervous when I have health problems. I hope it is normal to feel that way....

By the way, I also use acupuncture to help along the way to boost my overall health.

Hi there and welcome!
I will try and respond to most of the stuff u have been asking.
First i will not share my email just to talk about the progress in treatment.
I share my own expirence here only because this site helped me ALOT in the beginning (thanks to ATEOS & Fernando mostly) and now i wonna give back.
This i do by sharing everything i notice during my weekly treatments and also by discussing different aspects of LLLT, like how to improve/maximize the treatment by useing different lasers ect.
So imo u should do the same and dont care about what others think.
The good thing about this place, is that u can just overlook those people u feel like are wasting your time.
I tend to do this myself.
I mostly discus things with Fernando in here for all to see and if some one is interested, the can asked for advice or whatever and both me and Fernando will most often always answer the best we can.
Cuz people who have already made up there mind about LLLT being a scam or whatever, is not worth my time, since iv got very positive results and so have others and thats where i wonna put my focus and energy so newcommers will see the path more clear from the beginning then i was able to.
Not by trying to convert a radical nonbeliever into a believer. I couldent care less.
This stuff is not for everyone anyway.
You need to be openminded and dip your feet in the water and if u feel the water is doing something good for your feet, then why wouldent u wonna keep doing it more and more so to speak?
Then let other people call your progress what the want.
What matters is what u feel.
Atleast thats my take on that part and i might be wrong in the approch...but i really dont give a fu**
Im not in here to make friends or be popular or whatever.
In 6 month i might be gone, never to return, because of my progress and if i feel i did my part in here.

About your T going up and all the specific sounds, thats pretty much the same going on with me.
Read from page 15.
A great blog to read, is the one with Hansi cross!!
What he is expirencing, is pretty much spot on in regards to me.
Maybe it seems like im getting a bit faster resulst now lately.
But this i credit the high dose clinic treatment iv got from day one and now once again 2,5 month later and now im turning the 3 month mark in a few days from now.

Some days my T get really bad and it seems like im back to day one. But then after a few days it turns into low T and stays like this for even more days and thats what keeps me going.
Before LLLT my T was just the same crazy high pitch every day all day.
It only started changing after day two of LLLT and that was a insane change.


Keeps us posted on your progress!
We are many in here that wonna hear what u experience in the long run.
Especially since u react to LLLT, which some in here dont.


Cheers

 

[bwspot]

Does anyone know if there would be any benefit to do 1 week therapy? If lllt is offered in Florida i might just go there for vacation and do treatments and go from there.
Maybe they teach how to use your own laser? Anyone ever tried Florida clinic?

 

[CarrieLee]

Google "David Ringe". He has a LLLT practice in Florida. I don't know anyone who got treated by him. It will be great that someone came along to the forum. I spoke to him and he is very nice and knowledgeable. His session costs $90 per hour. If you are on the tight budget, it is a good place to start. I don't have experience or get treated by him. He does not sell home device.

@Nick J.

Thank you for your reply. I feel more relieved now. I also want to give back to people but I am not sure I am ready for it until I get more progress. First of all, I need to manage my expectation. Expect to be T-free after a couple or a few months may be Too high. Hans Cross and others did say it takes time and efforts. Also protecting your ears from noise.

I currently use Luci as the home treatment for 30 minutes per day for 5 days, 2 days break. I am thinking about doing more after two months (Amon Kaiser from Barden Barden recommends to use for only 30 minute the first two months but can increase it after the first two months). I also start to try "behind the ears" with Luci, that is what you do, right? I am doing it for 15 minutes per day behind the ears now. I do notice the T went up as you described in the blog. I read the blog several times and get something new each time. Thank you!

 

[Nick J.]

@CarrieLee

Im going to Florida myself in a few days time and maybe i will pay the guy a visit if i find the time for it and then report back in here. But dont hold your breath any of u...the chance is slim, since its for work and vacation im going.

Yes forget about curring this stuff fast.
Think of it like taking vitamins.
If u really need some vitamins, u will take them and then maybe feel a change like not being tired all day or so pretty fast. But u would be foolish to stop after that and not keep taking it, since more parts of your body might not have recovered fully and might need longer time with high dose.
Also u need to keep score by doing bloodtest...we do audiograms.
Thats how i look at LLLT.
My plan is to keep treating for atleast one year nomatter what happens and then i will feel whatevers happens along the way and only THEN can i honestly say i gave it a fair shot.

There is no reason u cant share what u feel, good or bad, nomatter how long u have been treating.
This will also be something for u to look back on later on. Cuz its easy to forget the ups and downs along the way, because there is just so many both ways.
So post when something new happens!
U dont have to wait for any final proof this stuff is legit.
Dont fear any possible failure end the end.
U have to try to enjoy the ride from A-B and exept whatever happens along the way and also in the end.
The end being the time u think there is no more to gain.
Again thats ofcourse my view and i cant expect u having the same.
But i think its sad if fear of failure is holding u back.
If me and Fernando among others did the same, then this place would be pretty dead and the thread would die or the trolls would take over and then its dead for sure.
So plz reconsider!

How did u get the Luci laser??
I believe u mean the luckylaser like Fernando have as well right??
As fare as treatingprotocal goes, u do it pretty much spot on.
I treat behing the ears sometimes...like 1-2 imes a week for as long as i can stand.
Maybe 30min. on each ear on top of the normal treating inside the ear that day.
But i only have the weak MLS...
But would still do the same if i had yours.

 

[bwspot]

Google "David Ringe". He has a LLLT practice in Florida. I don't know anyone who got treated by him. It will be great that someone came along to the forum. I spoke to him and he is very nice and knowledgeable. His session costs $90 per hour. If you are on the tight budget, it is a good place to start. I don't have experience or get treated by him. He does not sell home device.

@Nick J.

Thank you for your reply. I feel more relieved now. I also want to give back to people but I am not sure I am ready for it until I get more progress. First of all, I need to manage my expectation. Expect to be T-free after a couple or a few months may be Too high. Hans Cross and others did say it takes time and efforts. Also protecting your ears from noise.

I currently use Luci as the home treatment for 30 minutes per day for 5 days, 2 days break. I am thinking about doing more after two months (Amon Kaiser from Barden Barden recommends to use for only 30 minute the first two months but can increase it after the first two months). I also start to try "behind the ears" with Luci, that is what you do, right? I am doing it for 15 minutes per day behind the ears now. I do notice the T went up as you described in the blog. I read the blog several times and get something new each time. Thank you!

I wrote to them this morning.
So far no response.