Lying Doctors

[soundmachine]

TRT, CBT, TAT, PTM, whatever. I am talking about the folks on this board who are bitching about their doctors in this thread. I don't know of any of them who are doing TRT, CBT, or any of that stuff. Whether they heard about it from their (optimally well-informed) doctors or whether they heard about on this board ... the fact is that they aren't doing it. So in the final analysis, what difference does it make how well-informed, honest, and polite those doctors might be? You are still not going to be appreciable better.

The reason, in my opinion, is that given the current state of tinnitus research, the answers do not lie in a doctor's office. Rather, the answers lie deep within ourselves. The challenge then for each of us - and it can be a formidable challenge at that - is to find the answers that lie within us. And bitching about the inadequacies of the medical profession, considerable though those inadequacies might be, is not going to bring anybody one microtonic flickering closer to his or her answers.

Well informed doctors give well informed directions that might lead a patient to a lower tinnitus outcome. The "bitching" comes form doctors not being well informed, hence people flock to sites like this for answers (thank God one exists). Well informed doctors guide people to off label treatments. I'm not talking about a doc that just has a chat and that's it. But one that can put into action a treatment plan. Yes, tinnitus is tricky so a plan is not cut-n-dry. But none the less, you pay for a specialists and they should have some knowledge of where to start. You sound pretty defeatist of people on this board. I have put into action what I learned from here. Some of it helped.

 

[Dr. Nagler]

Well, I think she gave up.

So she won't speak to you? That seems rather drastic to me. No offense intended, but it it possible that she finds your attitude to be off-putting?

 

[Danny Boy]

So she won't speak to you? That seems rather drastic to me. No offense intended, but could it possibly be your attitude that she finds off-putting?

I never gave her attitude, just told her the white noise generator wasn't working as it was spiking my tinnitus making it louder and my tinnitus was competing with the volume of the white noise. That really isn't attitude. Never said what she was doing was wrong. I just said it wasn't helping me what do I do? Said amitriptyline and that was it. This was before I took trobalt or keppra.

I had a box of trobalt back then, bought from a lovely person, who I'm thankful for...But I didn't use it, until that night when the WNG spiked my tinnitus and since mine is in both ears, I was shaking my head...I ended up banging my head against a wall, then throwing myself down the stairs and proceeding to hit my head on everything I could see. Tried to jump out of a window, but was stopped. Tried hanging myself, but someone found me...Then tried to look up online to buy drugs which would kill me, basically wanted to die. After that, I decide to take trobalt, as enough was enough. Took that and ever looked back, if I didn't take it, I would've been dead.

 

[soundmachine]

I never gave her attitude, just told her the white noise generator wasn't working as it was spiking my tinnitus making it louder and my tinnitus was competing with the volume of the white noise. That really isn't attitude. Never said what she was doing was wrong. I just said it wasn't helping me what do I do? Said amitriptyline and that was it. This was before I took trobalt or keppra.

I had a box of trobalt back then, bought from a lovely person, who I'm thankful for...But I didn't use it, until that night when the WNG spiked my tinnitus and since mine is in both ears, I was shaking my head...I ended up banging my head against a wall, then throwing myself down the stairs and proceeding to hit my head on everything I could see. Tried to jump out of a window, but was stopped. Tried hanging myself, but someone found me...Then tried to look up online to buy drugs which would kill me, basically wanted to die. After that, I decide to take trobalt, as enough was enough. Took that and ever looked back, if I didn't take it, I would've been dead.

Good proof that some off-label stuff does work...even if there are side affects...it sure is better than hell. Most folks just have to go to a psychiatrist and get antidepressants. That not only did not work for me...I got addicted and had severe withdrawal symptoms coming off. I could not get any other type of drug. I think most get either antidepressants or benzos. This is exactly why we need more informed medical professionals. It is just a crime that so many have to suffer so needlessly.

 

[Danny Boy]

Good proof that some off-label stuff does work...even if there are side affects...it sure is better than hell. Most folks just have to go to a psychiatrists and get antidepressants. That not only did not work for me...I got addicted and had severe withdrawal symptoms coming off. I could not get any other type of drug. I think most get either antidepressants or benzos. This is exactly why we need more informed medical professionals. It is just a crime that so many have to suffer so needlessly.

This is why I turned to keppra and trobalt. There wasn't anything else, but benzos which would make things even worse. I'm glad I took these drugs as it saved me. Now I wouldn't encourage anyone to take such measures if they have mild or manageable tinnitus, but there's an extreme tinnitus that need to be treated with anti-epileptic drugs which aren't benzos.

 

[soundmachine]

This is why I turned to keppra and trobalt. There wasn't anything else, but benzos which would make things even worse. I'm glad I took these drugs as it saved me. Now I wouldn't encourage anyone to take such measures if they have mild or manageable tinnitus, but there's an extreme tinnitus that need to be treated with anti-epileptic drugs which aren't benzos.

I'm glad you had a good experience. I will keep that in mind if this gets worse again and I can't manage. Right now, I am trying to stay off all psychotropic drugs. But an anti-epileptic may help and I'm glad you could get it. I will have to find a doctor that is willing to do things like this. That won't be easy given the state of medical ignorance (Oh sorry Nagler..I'm bitching) but maybe there will be one out there.

 

[Danny Boy]

I'm glad you had a good experience. I will keep that in mind if this gets worse again and I can't manage. Right now, I am trying to stay off all psychotropic drugs. But an anti-epileptic may help and I'm glad you could get it. I will have to find a doctor that is willing to do things like this. That won't be easy given the state of medical ignorance (Oh sorry Nagler..I'm bitching) but maybe there will be one out there.

I wish you all the best buddy! I just feel sorry, that any of us, have to go through this.

 

[bwspot]

Doctors should never give you impression that they lie or don't know. They should be a helpful resource and help to come up with action plan or if they don't know recommend somebody who might know better and only charge minimum in that case. What i don't understand is how you can collect money if you did not do anything? I wish I had a job like that. When I saw the ent he talked to me for 1 minute after checking my ears and nose and then he talked to me later after the audiogram for 2 minutes. I had to wait in the office for 1h and spent like 3 hours total there.
Another example is my dentist. I came to office with no pain and no problems. No cavities for 14 years. She finds some cavity and makes drastic decision which leads me to living in pain for 1year and 2 months and now I am offered extraction. i had to fight for a year to get my money back and I won the case but it does not matter as I live in pain and still don't know what she did to me. What is sad that they continue to practice and make tons of money but on the other side i suffer and dream about the time machine. I learned a lot but the doctor still does the same. How do you explain that?when I joined the forum I was surprised when I saw doctors corner. I could not believe that any doctor would like to answer question about tinnitus. The only explanation I have for this is that @Dr. Nagler himself is the sufferer and this is the main reason he decided to participate. Yes, sometimes I hope his answers would be more to my liking but at least he is here to support us. Having more doctors on the forum would be even more helpful but doctors don't have time for the bs forums.

 

[Dr. Nagler]

when I joined the forum I was surprised when I saw doctors corner. I could not believe that any doctor would like to answer question about tinnitus. The only explanation I have for this is that @Dr. Nagler himself is the sufferer and this is the main reason he decided to participate.

Right, if I did not have tinnitus, I would not be participating on the Doctors' Corner. But it goes even deeper than that. Nobody (even people with tinnitus) applies to medical school because of a desire to treat tinnitus patients. And nobody who has graduated from medical school selects a residency with the idea of treating tinnitus patients in mind. Indeed, if there were a specialty called "tinnitology," nobody would take the exam. The fact of the matter is that there is nothing at all about treating tinnitus patients that is appealing at all to 99.99% of medical doctors. So what got me interested in it? I don't just have tinnitus. My tinnitus was so severe that it put me in bed for the better part of a year and almost cost me my life. That's a horse of a different color.

Yes, sometimes I hope his answers would be more to my liking but at least he is here to support us.

Help me here, please. Anybody. As of this point in time, I have answered over 425 questions on the Doctors' Corner. In each case I have answered the question in a straightforward manner to the very best of my ability. I devote a lot of time to the Doctors' Corner in the hopes that it will be a unique and valuable resource. I do it because back when I was suffering so severely in the mid-1990s, that sort of resource would have been invaluable to me in my search for solutions and relief. So please take a moment to tell me what I can do to make my responses "more to [your] liking." Because if I can make the Doctors' Corner better, then that's what I want to do. Thanks much.

 

[soundmachine]

Right, if I did not have tinnitus, I would not be participating on the Doctors' Corner. But it goes even deeper than that. Nobody (even people with tinnitus) applies to medical school because of a desire to treat tinnitus patients. And nobody who has graduated from medical school selects a residency with the idea of treating tinnitus patients in mind. Indeed, if there were a specialty called "tinnitology," nobody would take the exam. The fact of the matter is that there is nothing at all about treating tinnitus patients that is appealing at all to 99.99% of medical doctors. So what got me interested in it? I don't just have tinnitus. My tinnitus was so severe that it put me in bed for the better part of a year and almost cost me my life. That's a horse of a different color.


Help me here, please. Anybody. As of this point in time, I have answered over 425 questions on the Doctors' Corner. In each case I have answered the question in a straightforward manner to the very best of my ability. I devote a lot of time to the Doctors' Corner in the hopes that it will be a unique and valuable resource. I do it because back when I was suffering so severely in the mid-1990s, that sort of resource would have been invaluable to me in my search for solutions and relief. So please take a moment to tell me what I can do to make my responses "more to [your] liking." Because if I can make the Doctors' Corner better, then that's what I want to do. Thanks much.

Invite some ENTs (you seem to know some from a practice co-located I believe). Invite some MD PhDs (medical scientists that are not just board certified but actually do research on Tinnitus and hearing loss such as at the NIH).

Just some suggestions..take it or leave it.

 

[Dr. Nagler]

Invite some ENTs (you seem to know some from a practice co-located I believe). Invite some MD PhDs (medical scientists that are not just board certified but actually do research on Tinnitus and hearing loss such as at the NIH). Just some suggestions..take it or leave it.

Thanks for the suggestions. And indeed, I have spoken to a number of my colleagues in the clinical and research arenas about it. The only positive response was from Dr. Bruce Hubbard, who as a result is currently participating on the Doctors' Corner. Dr. Hubbard is a great resource, and I am disappointed to note that in the year he has been on the Doctors' Corner he has received only 35 questions.

You might be interested in knowing that around ten years ago there was a tinnitus board with some sixteen ENTs, audiologists, and researchers posting right alongside tinnitus sufferers. I ran that board myself and I was therefore able to assure them that there would be absolutely no insults, disparaging comments, or nastiness of any kind. So they participated to whatever extent their schedules would allow. It was really great while it lasted, but eventually the board was hacked by a couple of miscreants who had been banned for just that sort of behavior, and I had to shut it down.

 

[bwspot]

Right, if I did not have tinnitus, I would not be participating on the Doctors' Corner. But it goes even deeper than that. Nobody (even people with tinnitus) applies to medical school because of a desire to treat tinnitus patients. And nobody who has graduated from medical school selects a residency with the idea of treating tinnitus patients in mind. Indeed, if there were a specialty called "tinnitology," nobody would take the exam. The fact of the matter is that there is nothing at all about treating tinnitus patients that is appealing at all to 99.99% of medical doctors. So what got me interested in it? I don't just have tinnitus. My tinnitus was so severe that it put me in bed for the better part of a year and almost cost me my life. That's a horse of a different color.


Help me here, please. Anybody. As of this point in time, I have answered over 425 questions on the Doctors' Corner. In each case I have answered the question in a straightforward manner to the very best of my ability. I devote a lot of time to the Doctors' Corner in the hopes that it will be a unique and valuable resource. I do it because back when I was suffering so severely in the mid-1990s, that sort of resource would have been invaluable to me in my search for solutions and relief. So please take a moment to tell me what I can do to make my responses "more to [your] liking." Because if I can make the Doctors' Corner better, then that's what I want to do. Thanks much.

I do appreciate your work. As I said it amazes me that a doctor is part of this forum. It would be great to have more doctors to share more ideas. Could you ask your coleeges to join you? Would nice to have an audiologist or ent here.

 

[Dr. Nagler]

I do appreciate your work. As I said it amazes me that a doctor is part of this forum.

Thank you for the kind words.

It would be great to have more doctors to share more ideas.

I fully agree.

Could you ask your coleeges to join you? Would nice to have an audiologist or ent here.

Please see my response #72 above. It impractical and unreasonable to expect the Tinnitus Talk Staff to offer the kind of absolute assurances that I was able to offer as owner and sole moderator back then.

 

[soundmachine]

Thanks for the suggestions. And indeed, I have spoken to a number of my colleagues in the clinical and research arenas about it. The only positive response was from Dr. Bruce Hubbard, who as a result is currently participating on the Doctors' Corner. Dr. Hubbard is a great resource, and I am disappointed to note that in the year he has been on the Doctors' Corner he has received only 35 questions.

You might be interested in knowing that around ten years ago there was a tinnitus board with some sixteen ENTs, audiologists, and researchers posting right alongside tinnitus sufferers. I ran that board myself and I was therefore able to assure them that there would be absolutely no insults, disparaging comments, or nastiness of any kind. So they participated to whatever extent their schedules would allow. It was really great while it lasted, but eventually the board was hacked by a couple of miscreants who had been banned for just that sort of behavior, and I had to shut it down.

While I am sad to read that, hacking should not stop a board. You harden your site with the right software and keep going. There are ways to do that. I'm sure this site does that pretty well. Maybe that was a long time ago.
In any event I am pretty sure that a "Researcher's corner" would garner a lot of interest based on what I've read here.

 

[Dr. Nagler]

While I am sad to read that, hacking should not stop a board. You harden your site with the right software and keep going. There are ways to do that. I'm sure this site does that pretty well. Maybe that was a long time ago.

It was ten years ago. That's the cyber equivalent of the Stone Age.

In any event I am pretty sure that a "Researcher's corner" would garner a lot of interest based on what I've read here.

Then perhaps Team Research will have more success garnering interest than I have had. But from my experience in making such inquiries, without the types of assurances that I have discussed above, it's going to be a real challenge.

 

[deanalewis]

What I think my doctor is lying about is creating stories that are supposed to make me feel better then when I call his bluff e.g. I have a serious condition its met with - Just live with it.

Even if the doctor had of referred me to ENT to hear the same thing that would be fine - I have been told by people on here to get Steroids in the hope they work however If I cannot get a referral my doctor is blocking my best chance at the moment of a cure.

 

[deanalewis]

Dr Nagler,

I am a programmer for my profession and if I dont keep up to date I get left behind so what gives a doctor the God given right not to study and learn more about a condition - I learned more about Tinnitus on this thread and the possible cures and studies being investigated than my doctors 'Just live with it response' Quite literally I could understand why someone would commit suicide after that.

 

[Carm]

doctors oath says "do no harm"

Why they harm their patients by saying there's nothing that can be done? There is psych help!

 

[Dr. Nagler]

Dr Nagler, I am a programmer for my profession and if I dont keep up to date I get left behind so what gives a doctor the God given right not to study and learn more about a condition

Every doctor I know studies. They have to study to maintain their licenses. What they study and how much they retain? Well that's anybody's guess.

The point I was trying to make in Posts #38, 55, and 57 is that no matter how much your doctor studies and no matter how wonderful a person he or she might be, in terms of your tinnitus you would be no better off than you are right now.

In 2015 if you want meaningful lasting relief from your tinnitus, you will not find it in a doctor's office ... because the answer lies deep within yourself. In my opinion, anyway.

So once you are evaluated by an ENT to make sure that you have no underlying problems that require attention (impacted wax, acoustic neuroma, middle ear effusion, etc.), then you need to look into the mirror to find your way. Those of us who do CBT, TRT, PTM, etc. can help guide you there - but the solution lies within you.

 

[soundmachine]

Every doctor I know studies. They have to study to maintain their licenses. What they study and how much they retain? Well that's anybody's guess.

The point I was trying to make in Posts #38, 55, and 57 is that no matter how much your doctor studies and no matter how wonderful a person he or she might be, in terms of your tinnitus you would be no better off than you are right now.

In 2015 if you want meaningful lasting relief from your tinnitus, you will not find it in a doctor's office ... because the answer lies deep within yourself. In my opinion, anyway.

So once you are evaluated by an ENT to make sure that you have no underlying problems that require attention (impacted wax, acoustic neuroma, middle ear effusion, etc.), then you need to look into the mirror to find your way. Those of us who do CBT, TRT, PTM, etc. can help guide you there - but the solution lies within you.

I guess, I and many others, find this statement specious at best: "... is that no matter how much your doctor studies and no matter how wonderful a person he or she might be, in terms of your tinnitus you would be no better off than you are right now."

There is more than TRT etc. Off label drugs (which can only be prescribed by an MD) can and do work for many people. Hence, completely obfuscating that fact with your rantings about "it ain't the doctor's fault since there is nada that can be done...you just need to look deep in your soul and 'get used to it'", is not helpful.

There are pharmacological treatments that can help others. I'm not using any now, but I do believe others on this board that they do work and may have saved their life.

But if you are a US trained physician, you are are going to be more afraid of the litigious society of America, perhaps, and the fact that the AMA is one hell of an autocratically strong union that prevents off labels, perhaps.

In any event...I don't agree with you. As for your rant that bringing on MDs on this site will have to be heavily controlled to prevent disparaging remarks..well, if they are not a quack but someone who does treat tinnitus, I'm sure they will get more than the red carpet.

 

[Dr. Nagler]

As for your rant that bringing on MDs on this site will have to be heavily controlled to prevent disparaging remarks..well, if they are not a quack but someone who does treat tinnitus, I'm sure they will get more than the red carpet.

Fine. Then you get your doctor to do it. Because everybody I've asked (save for Dr. Hubbard) has said NO.

 

[soundmachine]

Fine. Then you get your doctor to do it. Because everybody I've asked (save for Dr. Hubbard) has said NO.

I wish I knew a MD that actually could treat tinnitus. That is why I am on this board. Because I can't find one (nothing to do with they don't have time...they are just hard to find)
Dr. Hubbard is a psychologist...not a MD.

https://www.tinnitustalk.com/threads/dr-bruce-hubbard.4559/

Not that he isn't a valuable asset to this board but he does not and can not prescribe medications (that is the domain of a MD). Some folks here are trying medication before CBT and TRT. CBT and TRT are the last stop when nothing else has worked.

 

[bwspot]

I think that ents should know basic things in regards to tinnitus. When it started? Was this acustic trauma? If yes and just happened maybe offer stereoids and explain how important they might be in healing it. Explain there are side effects but also that stereoids might save your ears and it might be worth trying. Perform high frequency audiogram to confirm hearing loss of any. Explain how difficult is to treat it and how important it is not to worrie about it. Explain how important it is to protect your hearing moving on.

All I was told was that there was nothing wrong and my hearing was ok. I was asked to come back in 1month to retest. I was not asked any questions.

There is no relationship between the doctor and the patient. It is strict business. I don't feel like doctors care about our problems. They are either trained to be like that or it comes with the job after sometime.

But there are some who are excellent but you can count them on your fingers.

If I see any doctor and they show that they care about my problem and if they spent more time with me I feel taken care of. If I feel them rushing I feel aggravated and confused and I forget all the questions as I am running out of time.

They should see only 4 patients a day, not 30.

 

[marqualler]

This is just from my own experience, so take it for what it is. But, if my ENT (and I've seen two of them in the last 8 months), or one of the multiple GPs I saw, around the onset of my tinnitus, had used these clinical practice guidelines (released on Oct 1, 2014 -- also the date of the "onset" of my tinnitus!) I would have been a lot better off, even if they could not have done anything in the interim to "make it better."

As it happens, eight months into my own, I still have ringing, but a) it is in my experience much less intense than it was at the onset (likely because the onset also was accompanied by a moderate-level ear infection that brought upon some temporary conductive hearing loss) and b) most of the time I don't even notice it. Which I was able to achieve thanks to following some of these protocols (most notably in utilizing cognitive behavioral therapy as recommended by the American Academy of Otolaryngology guidelines).

As such, I don't think any of my doctors "lied" but simply did not have good tools to use for a patient experiencing tinnitus for the first time.

 

[Dr. Nagler]

I wish I knew a MD that actually could treat tinnitus. That is why I am on this board. Because I can't find one (nothing to do with they don't have time...they are just hard to find)
Dr. Hubbard is a psychologist...not a MD.

OK. I thought we were talking about doctors in general - and Dr. Hubbard is indeed a doctor, just not a medical doctor.

So you are talking about medical doctors who keep up and have a true interest in treating tinnitus patients, right? I mean when they arrive in the office and check their schedules, they actually look forward to seeing those patients with tinnitus as opposed to those medical doctors who would be just as happy if no tinnitus patients were coming in that day. Are those the medical doctors you say are "just hard to find?"

Well why do you think they might be hard to find? How many licensed medical doctors in the entire US would you say fit that description? I can think of a grand total of seven. There may be others, but I've never come across any of them at tinnitus meetings.

 

[soundmachine]

OK. I thought we were talking about doctors in general - and Dr. Hubbard is indeed a doctor, just not a medical doctor.

So you are talking about medical doctors who keep up and have a true interest in treating tinnitus patients, right? I mean when they arrive in the office and check their schedules, they actually look forward to seeing those patients with tinnitus as opposed to those medical doctors who would be just as happy if no tinnitus patients were coming in that day. Are those the medical doctors you say are "just hard to find?"

Well why do you think they might be hard to find? How many licensed medical doctors in the entire US would you say fit that description? I can think of a grand total of six, only two of whom are ENTs.

FEW....which is why I was hoping one of the FEW would join the board. One would be enough. Maybe the US is a bad shot. There are ENTs all over the world..the UK...Germany, France...etc. It doesn't have to be the US. In fact, probably better it is not given the medical field in general is not too open in the US to new treatments (partly due to the sclerotic FDA...but that is another thread).

 

[Dr. Nagler]

FEW....which is why I was hoping one of the FEW would join the board. One would be enough.

You already have one.

I really have nothing more to add to this "Lying Doctors" thread, so I'll drop out. But just think about it. How many medical doctors do you think would be interested in taking time away from their own patients to participate on a board where "Lying Doctors" is one of the more popular topics of the day?

 

[soundmachine]

I didn't see anything that says you're an ENT. Am I assuming something wrong? It says you were a general surgeon.
http://www.atlantatinnitus.com/dr-stephen-nagler.php

http://www.healthgrades.com/physician/dr-stephen-nagler-ysbhc

Specialties

• General Surgery
• Colon & Rectal Surgery

We are talking about our hearing apparatus and not the colon...yes?

Oh I see this:

In the corporate sector, between 2002 and 2004, Dr. Nagler was Vice President for Clinical Affairs at Neuromonics (then known as Tinnitech Ltd), and between 2010 and 2013, he was Director of Tinnitus and Hyperacusis Services at General Hearing Instruments, Inc, where he helped develop wearable devices designed specifically for Tinnitus Retraining Therapy (TRT).

Or is there another MD on this board? Help me out here.

 

[attheedgeofscience]

Or is there another MD on this board? Help me out here.

There are other doctors on the board, but none of them in their capacity as a physician.

The Doctor's Corner on this forum has three "clinicians of tinnitus" - you can find them here (although I am sure you already have) and only one of them is an "M.D.":

www.tinnitustalk.com/forums/doctors-corner.58

 

[Dr. Nagler]

I didn't see anything that says your are an ENT. Am I assuming something wrong? It says you were a general surgeon.
http://www.atlantatinnitus.com/dr-stephen-nagler.php Or is there another MD on this board? Help me out here.

I'm NOT an ENT. I'm a licensed MD who is Board-Certified in Surgery. First I thought you were talking about doctors in general. Then you clarified and said you were talking about medical doctors. Now you have further clarified it to specify medical doctors who are ENTs. I wish you'd make up your mind!!!!!

I strongly doubt that you will find an ENT who is interested in posting on this tinnitus board or any tinnitus board currently on the web.