Maybe a New Way to Diagnose Tinnitus for People Without Hearing Loss

[Mic]

Hi fellow T companions. Let me start my first post on this forum with speaking out my gratitude towards all of the people who maintain and support Tinnitus talk. This forum has been a great support for me in coping with this hell-like condition the past year. My T started with a simple ear infection in April 2014. Different doctors just send me home with the diagnoses bilateral T without measurable hearing loss and the advice to learn to cope with it. Since then this high squealing sound never left. The first months were a hell I went through and even don't wish happen to an enemy, but eventually, like many of you can comprehend, you learn to cope with it.

Even though I learned to cope with it, questions like what causes this condition and why is there still no remedy for this T-torture still crosses my mind. Blessed with an academic brain (but missed my calling by not becoming a scientist) I started to research the underlying mechanisms of the human hearing combining it with basic physics of sound.

My simple theory about the cause of T is that neurons that regulate/measure the amplitude of incoming sound signals in the brain (not the cochlea) are dysregulated after a traumatic event (sound, infection or baro trauma). You can compare it with a faulty sound amplifier that amplifies the random electronic noise that normally must stay below the thresholds of the sound-to-noise ratio, but manifest itself as a phantom sound because of over stimulation. The fact that many T-sufferers hear a pure tone (a clear frequency) in combination with a hissing sound (random amplitude signals on all frequencies) was also an indication for me to come up with this theory.

With this thought I began to experiment with listening to different sounds to find any abnormalities in my hearing capability (since my hearing test at the hospital had resulted in perfect hearing, max 10db loss). In an attempt to test my hearing on different frequencies I downloaded a signal generator app to my smartphone which can generate pure tone sound on different frequencies. Playing around (gradually increasing and decreasing the frequency on a normal volume) I noticed that the pure tone sound switched from my left to right ear on two frequency ranges (from 4800 Hz to 5300 Hz and 8800 Hz to 9300 Hz). It is a sensation that I can describe as a sound moving from left to right through the middle of my head without a 'silent' gap. Besides this also the sound seemed to be higher in volume in this two ranges (notice that I do not have H).

So my question to all of you, who like me don't have measurable hearing loss and are able and willing to try out the little experiment above, is:


Do you also experience abnormalities in listening gradually to an increasing pure tone sound at a normal sound volume level (we don't want to cause more T ?

Unfortunately I don't have much time to post as often to this forum as I would like to do because of a busy work schedule, but from time to time I will come back to share some thoughts with you guys and gals…

Wish you all silent days in the near future,

Mic

 

[Danny Boy]

Hi fellow T companions. Let me start my first post on this forum with speaking out my gratitude towards all of the people who maintain and support Tinnitus talk. This forum has been a great support for me in coping with this hell-like condition the past year. My T started with a simple ear infection in April 2014. Different doctors just send me home with the diagnoses bilateral T without measurable hearing loss and the advice to learn to cope with it. Since then this high squealing sound never left. The first months were a hell I went through and even don't wish happen to an enemy, but eventually, like many of you can comprehend, you learn to cope with it.

Even though I learned to cope with it, questions like what causes this condition and why is there still no remedy for this T-torture still crosses my mind. Blessed with an academic brain (but missed my calling by not becoming a scientist) I started to research the underlying mechanisms of the human hearing combining it with basic physics of sound.

My simple theory about the cause of T is that neurons that regulate/measure the amplitude of incoming sound signals in the brain (not the cochlea) are dysregulated after a traumatic event (sound, infection or baro trauma). You can compare it with a faulty sound amplifier that amplifies the random electronic noise that normally must stay below the thresholds of the sound-to-noise ratio, but manifest itself as a phantom sound because of over stimulation. The fact that many T-sufferers hear a pure tone (a clear frequency) in combination with a hissing sound (random amplitude signals on all frequencies) was also an indication for me to come up with this theory.

With this thought I began to experiment with listening to different sounds to find any abnormalities in my hearing capability (since my hearing test at the hospital had resulted in perfect hearing, max 10db loss). In an attempt to test my hearing on different frequencies I downloaded a signal generator app to my smartphone which can generate pure tone sound on different frequencies. Playing around (gradually increasing and decreasing the frequency on a normal volume) I noticed that the pure tone sound switched from my left to right ear on two frequency ranges (from 4800 Hz to 5300 Hz and 8800 Hz to 9300 Hz). It is a sensation that I can describe as a sound moving from left to right through the middle of my head without a 'silent' gap. Besides this also the sound seemed to be higher in volume in this two ranges (notice that I do not have H).

So my question to all of you, who like me don't have measurable hearing loss and are able and willing to try out the little experiment above, is:


Do you also experience abnormalities in listening gradually to an increasing pure tone sound at a normal sound volume level (we don't want to cause more T ?

Unfortunately I don't have much time to post as often to this forum as I would like to do because of a busy work schedule, but from time to time I will come back to share some thoughts with you guys and gals…

Wish you all silent days in the near future,

Mic

I have no hearing loss, but I had hyperacusis. I managed to cure it though.

 

[RaZaH]

This makes perfect sense and I have been saying this all along .

You do have hearing loss but the measurements are too coarse to pick it up.
4800 , 5300 etc are not measured , rather 4khz and then 6khz .

It amazes me that an hearing test with the equivalent coarseness as an eyesight test with one large A and a smaller b is used to determine whether you have hearing loss , It might be sufficient for most purposes but not even close to state with certainty that people with T have no hearing loss and base any research on that.

Its completely unreliable at best and indeed damaging to research at worst.

Also , doing a sine sweep like you did will in fact reveal these losses.

Hearing tests should be done like this ....Normal method and then the Sine sweep where the person would tag when he hears a drop. In fact you can hear the tone tilt to one side if they are played at same levels to both ears.VERY easy to spot, and would settle this "no hearing loss issue once and for all.

I do not believe in the "no hearing loss theory" because , first off ,it makes no sense and second , there is nothing to prove it , hearing tests at least do nothing to prove it.

I for one have a sharp drop at 3.1 khz , I am pretty good at 3 khz though. 100hz difference!
And , my initial tone was indeed exactly 3.1 khz , massive correlation but would be missed by most doctors.

 

[Danny Boy]

This makes perfect sense and I have been saying this all along .

You do have hearing loss but the measurements are too coarse to pick it up.
4800 , 5300 etc are not measured , rather 4khz and then 6khz .

It amazes me that an hearing test with the equivalent coarseness as an eyesight test with one large A and a smaller b is used to determine whether you have hearing loss , It might be sufficient for most purposes but not even close to state with certainty that people with T have no hearing loss and base any research on that.

Its completely unreliable at best and indeed damaging to research at worst.

Also , doing a sine sweep like you did will in fact reveal these losses.

Hearing tests should be done like this ....Normal method and then the Sine sweep where the person would tag when he hears a drop. In fact you can hear the tone tilt to one side if they are played at same levels to both ears.VERY easy to spot, and would settle this "no hearing loss issue once and for all.

I do not believe in the "no hearing loss theory" because , first off ,it makes no sense and second , there is nothing to prove it , hearing tests at least do nothing to prove it.

I for one have a sharp drop at 3.1 khz , I am pretty good at 3 khz though. 100hz difference!
And , my initial tone was indeed exactly 3.1 khz , massive correlation but would be missed by most doctors.

Hidden hearing loss, enough said. I can hear up to 17,000hz.

 

[RaZaH]

That is pretty good for your age , means that in general your ears are in good health

 

[Danny Boy]

That is pretty good for your age , means that in general your ears are in good health

Yeah, that's something to be happy about I suppose lol

 

[Telis]

Yeah, that's something to be happy about I suppose lol

How could you have had such bad T when your hearing is so good? If you can hear outside sounds (or silence) to mask your T how bad can it be? I think that the reason your T is so low is that your hearing is so good, it has absolutely nothing to do with all the drugs you took.

I can't hear much beyond 8khz, it's all masked by my T. If I could hear those outside sounds it would mean I wasn't hearing my T, just common sense.

If you have no hearing loss up to 17khz you can't have bad T, it's impossible.

 

[Danny Boy]

How could you have had such bad T when your hearing is so good? If you can hear outside sounds (or silence) to mask your T how bad can it be? I think that the reason your T is so low is that your hearing is so good, it has absolutely nothing to do with all the drugs you took.

I can't hear much beyond 8khz, it's all masked by my T. If I could hear those outside sounds it would mean I wasn't hearing my T, just common sense.

If you have no hearing loss up to 17khz you can't have bad T, it's impossible.

I wish! Mine was so so loud and trust me, it must've been loud if my hearing was good. It's not like I took trobalt within 1 week. I took it after 4 months and even then I still had reactive tinnitus and that reactive tinnitus only went away after I took keppra and I never started keppra until the 6th month.

 

[MattK]

How could you have had such bad T when your hearing is so good? If you can hear outside sounds (or silence) to mask your T how bad can it be? I think that the reason your T is so low is that your hearing is so good, it has absolutely nothing to do with all the drugs you took.

I can't hear much beyond 8khz, it's all masked by my T. If I could hear those outside sounds it would mean I wasn't hearing my T, just common sense.

If you have no hearing loss up to 17khz you can't have bad T, it's impossible.

Have you tried to see if hearing aids would help?

 

[Telis]

Have you tried to see if hearing aids would help?

Looked into it a while back. I don't see how they would help me and neither did they. My hearing drops into nothing after 8khz, how many sounds do we hear at 8-12khz? Not a lot. Having H would also be a problem.

My hearing goes down -60db by 10khz so I don't, not sure man. Not a lot can be done, maybe a noise generator to distract,not sure.

 

[Nucleo]

If you have no hearing loss up to 17khz you can't have bad T, it's impossible.

I can hear up to 16 khz and I have reactive T, distorted hearing and H. Audiograms are not indicative of anything tinnitus related. I'm in the camp that believes T comes from neurological damage, not neccesarily damage the hearing mechanosensors.

 

[Nucleo]

Looked into it a while back. I don't see how they would help me and neither did they. My hearing drops into nothing after 8khz, how many sounds do we hear at 8-12khz? Not a lot. Having H would also be a problem.

You're right in the sense that there aren't a lot of pure sine waves between 8-12 khz out there for us to hear. Nevertheless you'll find that adjusting the 8+ khz frequencies on an equalizers completely changes the resulting sound (sharper sounds, more ''bite'', cymbals become more prominent)

 

[Telis]

I can hear up to 16 khz and I have reactive T, distorted hearing and H. Audiograms are not indicative of anything tinnitus related. I'm in the camp that believes T comes from neurological damage, not neccesarily damage the hearing mechanosensors.

How can you hear so well with the tinnitus noise? I have done a audiogram up to 16khz and could not really hear anything over my T in the upper range. Is your T very faint? Maybe you have just a small notch in your hearing?

 

[Telis]

You're right in the sense that there aren't a lot of pure sine waves between 8-12 khz out there for us to hear. Nevertheless you'll find that adjusting the 8+ khz frequencies on an equalizers completely changes the resulting sound (sharper sounds, more ''bite'', cymbals become more prominent)

Yeah I agree but I'm talking about everyday sounds, not music.

 

[Nucleo]

How can you hear so well with the tinnitus noise? I have done a audiogram up to 16khz and could not really hear anything over my T in the upper range. Is your T very faint? Maybe you have just a small notch in your hearing?

I don't know about notched. Using frequency sweeps there doesn't seem to be any drops. Only that it goes completly silent from 16 khz and onwards.

My tinnitus isn't one giant eeeeeeee but a about dozen sounds such as crickets, bell chimes and so on, different in both ears. For the most part these are masked during the day. I have a hissing type of sound that requires damaging levels of sounds to mask.

I also do not hear very well. I sometimes strain to understand speech with high background noise such as when everyone is talking at the same time in the restaurant. At this point the sound distortion takes over and everything is just a giant unintelligible garbled mess. I pick up a lot of sounds. Can't seem to make sense out of it.

This is what ''hidden hearing loss'' is. Hearing loss in the brain, not the cochlea.

 

[Telis]

I don't know about notched. Using frequency sweeps there doesn't seem to be any drops. Only that it goes completly silent from 16 khz and onwards.

My tinnitus isn't one giant eeeeeeee but a about dozen sounds such as crickets, bell chimes and so on, different in both ears. For the most part these are masked during the day. I have a hissing type of sound that requires damaging levels of sounds to mask.

I also do not hear very well. I sometimes strain to understand speech with high background noise such as when everyone is talking at the same time in the restaurant. At this point the sound distortion takes over and everything is just a giant unintelligible garbled mess. I pick up a lot of sounds. Can't seem to make sense out of it.

This is what ''hidden hearing loss'' is. Hearing loss in the brain, not the cochlea.

Ah ok. Interesting.

 

[Mic]

I don't know about notched. Using frequency sweeps there doesn't seem to be any drops. Only that it goes completly silent from 16 khz and onwards.

Have you also tried to test the frequency sweep on different volume levels. The sound shift I experience is strong on mid-level volume. It's also important to not sweep the frequency to fast.

My tinnitus isn't one giant eeeeeeee but a about dozen sounds such as crickets, bell chimes and so on, different in both ears. For the most part these are masked during the day. I have a hissing type of sound that requires damaging levels of sounds to mask.

I believe the key to the solution of this T-hell lays in the analysis of small details. The question here is why you only hear a hissing and I hear a combination of peeeeep and hissing. In sound physics hissing is equal to random and erratic signals on all perceptible frequencies. When we translate this to the dynamics of a cochlea this probably means that the hair cells on a broad spectrum are damaged equally. If this theory is true, the combination of sounds I perceive means on the one hand that a broad spectrum is damaged (which results in hissing) and on the other hand that the damage is more on some areas of the cochlea (which results in the peeeep).

I also do not hear very well. I sometimes strain to understand speech with high background noise such as when everyone is talking at the same time in the restaurant. At this point the sound distortion takes over and everything is just a giant unintelligible garbled mess. I pick up a lot of sounds. Can't seem to make sense out of it.

This is also a very interesting piece of detail that probably has clues about the mechanics behind T. The human hearing is a complex network of connections with many hubs that process the information. In doing so they probably work together delivering each other feedback. Unfortunately I don't have a medical education to understand the fine details, but, for instance, the cochlear nucleus (with its dorsal cochlear nucleus part) is responsible for tasks like inhibition and discrimination of sound (signal-to-noise, the phenomena you describe). This mechanism (beautiful when correctly functioning) could turn in to the T-hell when disfunctioning.

This is what ''hidden hearing loss'' is. Hearing loss in the brain, not the cochlea.

I think it's a combination. In your body not even one single organ can function on its own. They are symbiotic and need each other. This probably is the same for the hubs of the human hearing. They deliver each other feedback on a a two-way neural freeway. If this is true our challenge in stopping T is in finding the final station (hub) which is the last switch in generating the phantom sounds.

P.S.: Could someone with more knowledge about medical science comment on my philosophical theory

 

[Nucleo]

Have you also tried to test the frequency sweep on different volume levels. The sound shift I experience is strong on mid-level volume. It's also important to not sweep the frequency to fast.

I keep it as audibly low as possible. This is the test I'm using I do not know if it is too fast or not.

 

[Mic]

I keep it as audibly low as possible. This is the test I'm using I do not know if it is too fast or not.

In the contrary, it is probably to slow. If you have a smartphone you can download SignalGenerator (any android device) or Audio Function Generator (for ios/apple devices) to test it out. Both apps have a manual sweeper with which you can determine the speed yourself. (they are btw both free to download)

 

[vasil]

I keep it as audibly low as possible. This is the test I'm using I do not know if it is too fast or not.

Thanks for this one. So how much of this a man should hear? I lost it somewhere between 15 000-15 500.

 

[Rafael L]

With this thought I began to experiment with listening to different sounds to find any abnormalities in my hearing capability (since my hearing test at the hospital had resulted in perfect hearing, max 10db loss). In an attempt to test my hearing on different frequencies I downloaded a signal generator app to my smartphone which can generate pure tone sound on different frequencies. Playing around (gradually increasing and decreasing the frequency on a normal volume) I noticed that the pure tone sound switched from my left to right ear on two frequency ranges (from 4800 Hz to 5300 Hz and 8800 Hz to 9300 Hz). It is a sensation that I can describe as a sound moving from left to right through the middle of my head without a 'silent' gap. Besides this also the sound seemed to be higher in volume in this two ranges (notice that I do not have H).

I do not understand anything of T, but understand more audio, believe most listening a compound sound, Just add two different frequencies (EX: 10KHz and 11KHz) and you have a intermodulation, still suspect external frequencies may intermodulation with the frequency of T, sound interpretation would be different from a person without T.
I do not know why know exact frequency of the T can help in healing?

 

[martin12]

I think there are various forms of Tinnitus. One Neurological and perhaps the other inner ear.

It could in fact be "Brain Damage" of a sort that we all suffering from.

 

[TTP]

Hi fellow T companions. Let me start my first post on this forum with speaking out my gratitude towards all of the people who maintain and support Tinnitus talk. This forum has been a great support for me in coping with this hell-like condition the past year. My T started with a simple ear infection in April 2014. Different doctors just send me home with the diagnoses bilateral T without measurable hearing loss and the advice to learn to cope with it. Since then this high squealing sound never left. The first months were a hell I went through and even don't wish happen to an enemy, but eventually, like many of you can comprehend, you learn to cope with it.

Even though I learned to cope with it, questions like what causes this condition and why is there still no remedy for this T-torture still crosses my mind. Blessed with an academic brain (but missed my calling by not becoming a scientist) I started to research the underlying mechanisms of the human hearing combining it with basic physics of sound.

My simple theory about the cause of T is that neurons that regulate/measure the amplitude of incoming sound signals in the brain (not the cochlea) are dysregulated after a traumatic event (sound, infection or baro trauma). You can compare it with a faulty sound amplifier that amplifies the random electronic noise that normally must stay below the thresholds of the sound-to-noise ratio, but manifest itself as a phantom sound because of over stimulation. The fact that many T-sufferers hear a pure tone (a clear frequency) in combination with a hissing sound (random amplitude signals on all frequencies) was also an indication for me to come up with this theory.

With this thought I began to experiment with listening to different sounds to find any abnormalities in my hearing capability (since my hearing test at the hospital had resulted in perfect hearing, max 10db loss). In an attempt to test my hearing on different frequencies I downloaded a signal generator app to my smartphone which can generate pure tone sound on different frequencies. Playing around (gradually increasing and decreasing the frequency on a normal volume) I noticed that the pure tone sound switched from my left to right ear on two frequency ranges (from 4800 Hz to 5300 Hz and 8800 Hz to 9300 Hz). It is a sensation that I can describe as a sound moving from left to right through the middle of my head without a 'silent' gap. Besides this also the sound seemed to be higher in volume in this two ranges (notice that I do not have H).

So my question to all of you, who like me don't have measurable hearing loss and are able and willing to try out the little experiment above, is:


Do you also experience abnormalities in listening gradually to an increasing pure tone sound at a normal sound volume level (we don't want to cause more T ?

Unfortunately I don't have much time to post as often to this forum as I would like to do because of a busy work schedule, but from time to time I will come back to share some thoughts with you guys and gals…

Wish you all silent days in the near future,

Mic

Hello all - @Mic I find your theory very interesting. Can you elaborate on your research/experiment to date? I started having T 3 weeks ago and it's unbearable. I'm reading that this is permanent and it's scaring me to death as I can't imagine having anything worse than having this loud noise in my head/ear 24/7. I don't have a hearing loss (as considered by an audiogram test). My condition was treated as a viral infection and I was on steroids for 10 days though I do not have any other symptoms.
It's simply an unidentifiable onset of tinnitus and I'm trying to understand the cause and probable solutions.

 

[Mic]

I'm reading that this is permanent and it's scaring me to death as I can't imagine having anything worse than having this loud noise in my head/ear 24/7.

Hi @TTP, first of all... don't panic. Your T is just 3 weeks on and there is a possibility it will go away (T less than 3 months isn't considered chronic). I won't recommend you to do research on this stage because it could make you more anxious and flare your T up. My advise for you is to try to get your focus off the sound you are experiencing by doing things you like or listening to ambient music/sounds which make your T less noticeable. Also find a doctor for yourself that listens to you and doesn't treat you as a number.

I hope that your T recovers fast and we will never see you again on this forum. But if you still hanging around in 3 months we will talk further about research.

Mic

 

[TTP]

@Mic thank you for the encouragement. I can't understand what's happening. I wake up one day and the noise was in my ear/head. Perhaps it's hidden hearing loss and like many people said, it's the damage to the hair cells so minuscule that's not noticeable on an audiogram. It's driving me crazy. I can't find anywhere that would give me comfort that a sudden onset of T would go away or how long I need to give it before seeking additional treatment like TRT. If I know there is an end date, I would feel like I could endure, but it's driving me nuts. I'm taking it day by day but the intensity of the noise is hard not tot feel anxious. 3 weeks with the ringing seem like an eternity and for those who has been suffering from this condition for months and even years, I wish you all the best.

 

[japongus]

My simple theory about the cause of T is that neurons that regulate/measure the amplitude of incoming sound signals in the brain (not the cochlea) are dysregulated after a traumatic event (sound, infection or baro trauma). You can compare it with a faulty sound amplifier that amplifies the random electronic noise that normally must stay below the thresholds of the sound-to-noise ratio, but manifest itself as a phantom sound because of over stimulation. The fact that many T-sufferers hear a pure tone (a clear frequency) in combination with a hissing sound (random amplitude signals on all frequencies) was also an indication for me to come up with this theory.

What do you mean by this? Is the hissing sound, random signals on all frequencies? Isn't it just one frequency, a high pitched frequency? Why would the high pitched tinnitus (hissing sound) accompany the other tone, in your faulty sound amplifier?

 

[Tempest]

Even though this is an old thread, it's funny to see that @Mic came up with the same solution as I did when I first got my T and hearing loss. By increasing and decreasing the frequencies, I did notice the sound moving from left to right ear and there were some gaps that I didn't hear at all or only by moving my head a little (which was weird, but I guess the sound has to come at the right angle to be noticed by my damaged hair cells).

But yeah, it's absolutely possible to detect so called hidden hearing loss, ENTs are just lazy plus adding the fact that they probably just believe blindly what they're taught in school.

Anyway, I think it should be one of TinnitusTalk's missions to let people know that standard 8KHz hearing tests are pretty useless and if you pass one by flying colors, it still doesn't mean that you have a great hearing, it only means basically that you can get by with it when it comes to everyday noises.

 

[Mic]

What do you mean by this? Is the hissing sound, random signals on all frequencies?

Yes

Isn't it just one frequency, a high pitched frequency?

No, at least not the sound I perceive.

Why would the high pitched tinnitus (hissing sound) accompany the other tone, in your faulty sound amplifier?

Because it is not probable that damage in the cochlea/nerve/brain is pinpointed to one frequency. A whole range of tissue will be damaged more or less generating phantom sounds on multiple frequencies with different volumes and causing a peeeeep accompanied by a hisssssss...

Go test it for yourself with the 'noise generator' app on a smartphone (set the low pass filter to 6000hz and the high pass on 22000hz).

 

[Mic]

By increasing and decreasing the frequencies, I did notice the sound moving from left to right ear and there were some gaps that I didn't hear at all or only by moving my head a little (which was weird, but I guess the sound has to come at the right angle to be noticed by my damaged hair cells).

Finally.... somebody that can reproduce my experience

But to avoid false positives you first need to try the 'sweep experiment' with different headphones. Many headphone producer's tweak their products by playing around with the sound profile (for example they bring the bass to the foreground or sharpen the frequencies for vocals).

 

[japongus]

Go test it for yourself with the 'noise generator' app on a smartphone (set the low pass filter to 6000hz and the high pass on 22000hz).

I have a low frequency vibration tinnitus and a high pitched tinnitus, and don't notice hearing loss anywhere. That is beyond maybe in those two frequencies where I have the tinnituses, but even there it could be because the tinnitus is drowning out the sound.

Thing is, my ear also thumps with the slightest of sounds. I've seen a patient on his death bed from cancer say chemo temporarily gave him the same type of thump hyperacusis, so I'm a bigger believer that the middle ear is to blame than hearing cells in the cochlea that can't be replenished.