MuteButton

[dayma]

My take:

University of Michigan is a research institution interested in generating good, interesting data to be published in well-reviewed articles which end up getting cited by many others. Productization is vastly a secondary concern -- this is a detriment to patients in terms of timing but means the data being generated is implicitly less biased.

Neuromod is a heavily venture capital backed company burning up their runway who basically have to get something on the market ASAP or else the lights go out and they crash and burn like 95% of startups. They claim to have performed a large, convincing study -- and I have no reason to disbelieve them -- but so far this has not been published anywhere.

Basically, University of Michigan seems more transparency oriented (published all their protocols and have even worked a bit in email with those of us attempting to DIY their stuff) whereas Neuromod seems a lot more flash-and-cash oriented.

I don't have any particular mistrust of Neuromod, but like every other bit of vaporware out there -- I'll believe it's a thing when it is.

I guess this is a philosophical debate on how medical treatments make it to market. Either through public institutions of private entities. I see both approaches working but that's probably for a different forum. lol

I know for a fact that treatments created through universities are incredibly lucrative. I don't assume that because something is developed by a university it is any more altruistic than a private group. AKA Michigan, Minnesota or Neuromod, etc... It's not lucrative for the students doing the work though.

Thanks for your opinions all.

 

[Drone Draper]

I've got Dr. Ross O'Neill on LinkedIn. U Jelly brah? We're basically BFFs.

 

[GlennS]

Why can't Neuromod express some confidence outside of the close knit tinnitus community?

What makes you think they won't? And let's be real here. Nobody knows who the heck Susan Shore is even if she's gotten one or two mainstream media mentions. It hasn't become a major news item yet. And it's unlikely to become a major news item unless devices ship, in which case she's really no further along than Neuromod.

Shore has got this.

 

[Bam]

@Bam what about hearing aids? They have been being sold worldwide for a long while now at outrageous prices (6000€ + or - in here) and all they do is masking or amplifying some frequencies (and I bet they are nothing more complex than a Walkman). There's not a single day I don't meet someone wearing them.

I think a price of over the 4000€ could be justified by the fact of all the research and hard work Neuromod has put behind this.

Hearing aids are provided by the NHS in the U.K. The NHS spends £10 on a pack of generic aspirin. So won't blink at being ripped off by Phonak and Widex. It's a fucking mockery how poorly it's run and how much wastage there is.

Combine this with the hearing aid industry being second only to the Albanian Mafia in terms of how ruthlessly they will cling to their 'turf' and it's not a good scenario for advancement of a cure for hearing loss which they will try and impede at every turn.

 

[linearb]

I know for a fact that treatments created through universities are incredibly lucrative. I don't assume that because something is developed by a university it is any more altruistic than a private group. AKA Michigan, Minnesota or Neuromod, etc... It's not lucrative for the students doing the work though.

I definitely agree, but universities do get a lot of press and prestige out of doing cutting edge research; industry mostly gets press and prestige from making their shareholders rich.

 

[Martin69]

Legally that's only possible for those here who live in Ireland is it not? Plus, the world does not revolve around the wants and needs of Tinnitus Talk forum members, as much as we'd like to think otherwise. I didn't even know this group existed until recently. We represent a loud but statistically insignificant number of the total tinnitus sufferers.

We all hope that we get a resolution to our tinnitus problem. And I would spend a fortune for silence, whether it is Neuromod, University of XYZ or whoever else.

At the end, the device will help one or the other. But do not have your hopes too high. Being a long-term sufferer, I learnt to become skeptical. This is always better since you do not fall that high when disappointment comes.

BTW, here are members from Ireland, for example @RCP1. If the device can silence or lower tinnitus of those severe cases, this would be the best marketing campaign ever.

Everything at the moment is speculation. They could still adjust the device to improve it. Or they might just not have enough success stories to share.

It would be good to get some updates or at least a release date.

BTW, @RCP1 . Any news from Ireland and Neuromod?

 

[DaveFromChicago]

Check out the article about Susan Shore and Dr. Harrison Lin in the Chicago Tribune. It was a very good capsule description of her research.

https://www.chicagotribune.com/lifestyles/health/sc-hlth-help-for-tinnitus-0110-story.html

The reporter said that she "sought out tinnitus patients who could temporarily change their symptoms by clenching their jaws, sticking out their tongues, or turning or flexing their necks." At that point they had only tried this on 20 patients.
I was hoping that after over one year this device would actually be substantially closer to being available.

 

[Bam]

BTW, @RCP1 . Any news from Ireland and Neuromod?

I don't think they treat Irish people any better than the rest of us. Unless you're Bono. He already has a MuteButton and posted a testimonial on YouTube that he thinks it has reduced his tinnitus by 2% and it maybe seems a little teensy bit less intense.

 

[GlennS]

I don't think they treat Irish people any better than the rest of us. Unless you're Bono. He already has a MuteButton and posted a testimonial on YouTube that he thinks it has reduced his tinnitus by 2% and it maybe seems a little teensy bit less intense.

Level with us, Bam. Are you really suicidal or just trolling?

 

[Fabrikat]

I was hoping that after over one year this device would actually be substantially closer to being available.

Susan Shore has been at this point for a few years now. There is literally no rush to get this to market for her department.

The funding to run this latest trial has taken a long time. She'll probably run another trial even after this one. So she's still years away from commercialisation. @linearb has given some reasons why this may the case and I guess this is how the University of Michigan operates.
Frustratingly slow. Like watching paint dry. It's just how it is.

 

[hans799]

We're running a proper hype cycle here, folks. We've been to the Peak of Inflated Expectations already and the testimonials pushed us down to the Trough of Disillusionment. I expect us to wallow a bit here, then finally move on to the Slope of Enlightenment. (These are the actual words Gartner uses, this is a real thing.)

And we managed to do all this based on a few videos and some leaked paragraphs! Can't wait for the emotional thunderfest once a device actually hits the market

 

[dayma]

We're running a proper hype cycle here, folks. We've been to the Peak of Inflated Expectations already and the testimonials pushed us down to the Trough of Disillusionment. I expect us to wallow a bit here, then finally move on to the Slope of Enlightenment. (These are the actual words Gartner uses, this is a real thing.)

And we managed to do all this based on a few videos and some leaked paragraphs! Can't wait for the emotional thunderfest once a device actually hits the market

You just envoked Gartner. This makes me happy that someone on here also lives in the IT world

 

[Paulmanlike]

This is going to be interesting for the U.K. where we have a National Health service "free" at point of use.

Now this is speculating years away but if this product and bimodal neuromodulation become 'the thing' that treats tinnitus, it may open up massive business for Neuromod. Those investors will be very happy. They'll need to make the device competitive to other forms of treatment in regards to cost & efficacy compared to other 'treatments' for tinnitus and fit criteria to be recommended by NICE guidelines. Then it may one day be available on the NHS.

Of course when it's released and even with their data (500+ patients) it's probably still considered experimental so it'll be up to the patient to pay. But who knows where this path will go? I know ACRN was looked at by NICE in 2012 I think.

Anyway, the discussion about pricing. My guess is that it's going to cost in the thousands, that'll be for all the R&D and clinical trials, the device itself being pretty cheap to make. I think the whole 'cheaper it is, the more confidence they have' is wishful thinking.

When a new product is made (example - PlayStation 4) they sell it high when first released to sell it to the market that is prepared to pay that high end price. Providing they meet sales and once that market starts to slow, they drop the price and get the next market, and so on and so on. Until it's so cheap that they've basically covered the whole market population.

So how I would see it, when it's released and as time goes on - if you see a drop in price over the months or years, that's a good indicator that this product is selling. Anybody from the U.K. noticed how the Tinnitus Clinic have Desyncra and LEVO still priced at £4,000 - 5,000 and it hasn't changed? That's because sales are slow. And we know what reputation they have; personally I think they are both garbage.

Anyway, looking forward to seeing @annV's boobs.

 

[Manny]

the Tinnitus Clinic have Desyncra and LEVO still priced at £4,000 - 5,000 and it hasn't changed? That's because sales are slow. And we know what reputation they have; personally I think they are both garbage.

I've also wondered why they've left the price that high. According to your logical model of higher/lower markets (which I fully agree with) wouldn't they still want to lower it after a time to attempt to capitalize on the lower market?
Personally, I think they keep it high in an attempt to maintain an appearance of high quality, and/or because they consider it a product with a low price elasticity of demand.

 

[Bam]

And we managed to do all this based on a few videos and some leaked paragraphs!

The videos were bad dude. It was like showing Jihadi John's greatest hits to a bunch of American journalists sitting in an ISIL prison.

Ross if you're reading this - and we know you are - can you please lie to us some more and post some videos of people getting cured... We fucking love those!

 

[Don Tinny]

Worth remembering we have nothing 'now'........I would guess even Neuromod is another year away.

Yes. and for you! I live in Latin America...

 

[Bam]

Yes. and for you! I live in Latin America...

Ah you'll be okay. Just get the bus up to El Paso and hope Trump takes pity on your ringing ears.

 

[El BUZZ]

Ah you'll be okay. Just get the bus up to El Paso and hope Trump takes pity on your ringing ears.

I definitely second this↓

Seriously, man, you need psychological counseling more than Neuromod right now

 

[AliceW]

Do you think we can use the same device for several people? Just changing the treatment program settings with an audiologist every time for each new person?

 

[Bam]

Do you think we can use the same device for several people? Just changing the treatment program settings with an audiologist every time for each new person?

Not a chance. The contract that audiologists are signing right now with Neuromod will strictly prohibit this. The audiologists will in turn make us sign an agreement that we can't sell it on......But yeah once we have it, give a shit. If you have a normal audiogram share the love.

 

[linearb]

Not a chance. The contract that audiologists are signing right now with Neuromod will strictly prohibit this. The audiologists will in turn make us sign an agreement that we can't sell it on......But yeah once we have it, give a shit. If you have a normal audiogram share the love.

Yeah, the amount of second hand medical devices on eBay are legion.

I have actually considered buying a full GC/MS setup on there because it seems awesome, but then I think "$15,000" and also "the only purposes I have for such a thing are either illegal or extremely dangerous".

 

[Watasha]

Not a chance. The contract that audiologists are signing right now with Neuromod will strictly prohibit this. The audiologists will in turn make us sign an agreement that we can't sell it on......But yeah once we have it, give a shit. If you have a normal audiogram share the love.

@Bam Do you know this to be the case that contracts are current being signed with audiologists or is this speculation?

 

[GlennS]

Ross if you're reading this - and we know you are - can you please lie to us some more and post some videos of people getting cured... We fucking love those!

If Neuromod works then posts like this are tantamount to biting the hand that feeds you.

Everyone has reason to be cautious but there is a way to voice it without coming across as a prick.

If you keep flailing around like this you're just going to give us all a bad rep and I'll start flagging your posts.

GROW...UP.

 

[GamesB2]

Nearly half way through March and barely a beep.

I offer my services as social media manager to Neuromod in exchange for one free MuteButton.

Bargain if you think about it.

 

[Bam]

@Bam Do you know this to be the case that contracts are current being signed with audiologists or is this speculation?

Think about it......Why on earth would audiologists be allowed to recalibrate the device to the detriment of Neuromod's and their profits. I'm no genius but even I can work out that.

 

[Bndsmheowqhe]

Susan Shore has been at this point for a few years now. There is literally no rush to get this to market for her department.

The funding to run this latest trial has taken a long time. She'll probably run another trial even after this one. So she's still years away from commercialisation. @linearb has given some reasons why this may the case and I guess this is how the University of Michigan operates.
Frustratingly slow. Like watching paint dry. It's just how it is.

I don't know what to make of her response. Claiming that she's never heard of Neuromod strikes me as odd. Clearly she knows about them and perhaps is in denial about it. I have a family member that is very much the "iron lady" type and she often goes off into la la land when it comes to facing unpleasant realities.

 

[Watasha]

Think about it......Why on earth would audiologists be allowed to recalibrate the device to the detriment of Neuromod's and their profits. I'm no genius but even I can work out that.

@Bam So it's speculation. My question was really meant to determine if you actually knew contracts were currently being worked out with audiologists regarding this device, which I am now assuming we can't confirm based on the comment. That's all I was getting at as it would have indicated the wheels were moving on the rollout.

 

[linearb]

I don't know what to make of her response. Claiming that she's never heard of Neuromod strikes me as odd. Clearly she knows about them and perhaps is in denial about it. I have a family member that is very much the "iron lady" type and she often goes off into la la land when it comes to facing unpleasant realities.

Maybe she just hasn't tracked them as they have rebranded? When I was in the UMich lab they were very aware of the MuteButton device.

 

[Bndsmheowqhe]

Maybe she just hasn't tracked them as they have rebranded? When I was in the UMich lab they were very aware of the MuteButton device.

"Are you familiar with your competitor's device?"

Adult response:

"There are several companies working with similar technologies but we feel our approach will be more effective."

Shore's response:

"Never heard of them."

She's definitely threatened by it.

 

[linearb]

"Are you familiar with your competitor's device?"

Adult response:

"There are several companies working with similar technologies but we feel our approach will be more effective."

Shore's response:

"Never heard of them."

She's definitely threatened by it.

I don't think this is an accurate read for a number of reasons:

* there's a bunch of stuff in that Reddit post that I'm skeptical of, and I don't think he visited Shore's lab. I did, and they told me they were very aware of MuteButton (as Neuromod was called at the time).

Also their reaction was a lot more "there are several teams working on similar ideas, we don't know which will be the most effective but we certainly hope one of them is, and of course we'd like it to be ours".

* my interactions with them led me to believe that basically everyone in that lab was motivated by helping people with tinnitus, not trying to get rich.

* Susan Shore doesn't actually have nearly as much on the line here as Neuromod. She's an established, respected, tenured professor who has published a ton of well-cited work. Her $150,000 salary is guaranteed and not affected if the device fails. On the other hand, Neuromod is running on fumes and venture capital cash, and if they implode they'll all need to find new jobs.

Anyway I think this is as far a dissection as I need to do of something we have third hand from Reddit which may or may not have ever happened. It seems to me like people on this forum are really jumpy and paranoid about trying to find hidden motives for things.

I'm not really suspicious of any of it -- I've been to Shore's lab a lot, nothing set off my spider sense. If Neuromod were trying to fleece and run, well, they've had approval to sell for years and they could have just dumped a ton of devices onto the market in ~6 months, said "it takes 6 months of use to see the effect!" and then retired to an island. They didn't.