MuteButton

[Allan1967]

When the hell is this thing coming out?

 

[hans799]

Play sounds timed with tongue zaps -> ???? -> reduction or elimination in tinnitus.

My understanding comes from Susan Shore's study (because Neuromod's study isn't released yet), but the mechanism of action should be very similar.

The theory is that when there's hearing loss, neurons that should be receiving input don't get any, and just start firing randomly. Over time groups of these neurons gradually get in sync, and we end up with a bunch of auditory neurons firing roughly in lockstep. This is the lovely continuous noise of tinnitus.

What signal timing does is disrupt this synchronized firing. That is why the precise timing of the signals matter - if it's wrong, you can actually enhance the synchronization, making tinnitus louder.

Imagine that a band is marching to the beat of a drum, but someone in the audience begins playing another drum which is slightly off-beat to the first one. Some of the band's members will become confused, fall out of lockstep, and the whole formation is disrupted. Hence, tinnitus gets quieter.

The effect is temporary. Because hearing wasn't actually restored, the neurons will, over time, synchronize again. But based on Neuromod's information, this happens over a long time (months, maybe even years). And I speculate that we'll be able to just use the device again to disrupt the neurons once more. So repeated treatment should keep symptoms at bay indefinitely, or until something like FX-322 comes out that regenerates hearing and eliminates the root cause.

Here's the study if you want to know more (full text): https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5863907/

 

[Agrajag364]

I like how you guys are dissecting apart this chap's words like it's some massive science experiment.

I've watched all the videos, and I'll admit the people on them aren't too good at descriptive information. They're average joes you meet on the street. They really could have gotten better candidates. The guy with the 'TV Volume' especially, was pretty horrible at describing tinnitus.

I care about what the trial actually said, 42% volume reduction is a colossal improvement and for a lot of people this device should be enough to knock out mild to moderate tinnitus completely.

I would like to see the trial, but I would be surprised if the real life success rates match whatever rates are claimed in the paper. Medical science is... not always reliable... particularly early papers for a treatment... there are just many ways to "present" your data. BUT, frankly, if this device truly helps to even reduce, never mind eliminate tinnitus in 20% of patients it will be miles better than anything else out there and Neuromod will still deservedly make a fortune.

 

[Jack Straw]

I'm very interested to know how this works.

Like, with FX-322 we know exactly what would be the mechanism of the reduction of tinnitus and exactly how that would be achieved.

KNOWING that noise-induced hearing loss causes tinnitus:
Chemical cell signaling -> hair cell regeneration -> restoration of auditory function -> reduction or elimination of tinnitus.

So... with this it's:

Play sounds timed with tongue zaps -> ???? -> reduction or elimination in tinnitus.

Can someone please better explain this for me because I'm very interested.

The auditory stimulation and electrical pulses sent into the brain work together to help promote neuroplasticity to reduce tinnitus.

When we have damage to our hair cells, that stop or reduce sending signals to the brain, certain parts of the auditory cortex get starved of stimulation so your brain using neuroplasticity creates an over abundance of nerve endings/ connections to the parts of the auditory cortex right outside the range of deafness. This overstimulation causes tinnitus in the brain.

The Neuromod device uses the same mechanism of neuroplasticity again to change how the brain gets information from the auditory cortex or from the "gating system" (see the Dr. Rauschecker TED talk) in order to reduce or stop tinnitus.

 

[Jack Straw]

When the hell is this thing coming out?

Coming out in Ireland Q1 2019. Unknown for FDA, but I assume end of 2019 or beginning of 2020.

Government shutdown isn't going to help this process.

 

[dayma]

I like how you guys are dissecting apart this chap's words like it's some massive science experiment.

I've watched all the videos, and I'll admit the people on them aren't too good at descriptive information. They're average joes you meet on the street. They really could have gotten better candidates. The guy with the 'TV Volume' especially, was pretty horrible at describing tinnitus.

I care about what the trial actually said, 42% volume reduction is a colossal improvement and for a lot of people this device should be enough to knock out mild to moderate tinnitus completely.

This 100%. Real people do not always make good actors or communicators. These are people that are from their test groups. They were probably brought on based on how they fit the use case rather than how they communicated.

 

[Heinrich_S7]

My understanding comes from Susan Shore's study (because Neuromod's study isn't released yet), but the mechanism of action should be very similar.

The theory is that when there's hearing loss, neurons that should be receiving input don't get any, and just start firing randomly. Over time groups of these neurons gradually get in sync, and we end up with a bunch of auditory neurons firing roughly in lockstep. This is the lovely continuous noise of tinnitus.

What signal timing does is disrupt this synchronized firing. That is why the precise timing of the signals matter - if it's wrong, you can actually enhance the synchronization, making tinnitus louder.

Imagine that a band is marching to the beat of a drum, but someone in the audience begins playing another drum which is slightly off-beat to the first one. Some of the band's members will become confused, fall out of lockstep, and the whole formation is disrupted. Hence, tinnitus gets quieter.

The effect is temporary. Because hearing wasn't actually restored, the neurons will, over time, synchronize again. But based on Neuromod's information, this happens over a long time (months, maybe even years). And I speculate that we'll be able to just use the device again to disrupt the neurons once more. So repeated treatment should keep symptoms at bay indefinitely, or until something like FX-322 comes out that regenerates hearing and eliminates the root cause.

Here's the study if you want to know more (full text): https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5863907/

It's post like yours that make me excited for this device. Your analogy was spot on!

 

[Bam]

My understanding comes from Susan Shore's study (because Neuromod's study isn't released yet), but the mechanism of action should be very similar.

The theory is that when there's hearing loss, neurons that should be receiving input don't get any, and just start firing randomly. Over time groups of these neurons gradually get in sync, and we end up with a bunch of auditory neurons firing roughly in lockstep. This is the lovely continuous noise of tinnitus.

What signal timing does is disrupt this synchronized firing. That is why the precise timing of the signals matter - if it's wrong, you can actually enhance the synchronization, making tinnitus louder.

Imagine that a band is marching to the beat of a drum, but someone in the audience begins playing another drum which is slightly off-beat to the first one. Some of the band's members will become confused, fall out of lockstep, and the whole formation is disrupted. Hence, tinnitus gets quieter.

The effect is temporary. Because hearing wasn't actually restored, the neurons will, over time, synchronize again. But based on Neuromod's information, this happens over a long time (months, maybe even years). And I speculate that we'll be able to just use the device again to disrupt the neurons once more. So repeated treatment should keep symptoms at bay indefinitely, or until something like FX-322 comes out that regenerates hearing and eliminates the root cause.

Here's the study if you want to know more (full text): https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5863907/

Bravo. You just put every clueless doctor, who knows squat about one of the worst medical afflictions on earth, to shame.

 

[Allan1967]

My understanding comes from Susan Shore's study (because Neuromod's study isn't released yet), but the mechanism of action should be very similar.

The theory is that when there's hearing loss, neurons that should be receiving input don't get any, and just start firing randomly. Over time groups of these neurons gradually get in sync, and we end up with a bunch of auditory neurons firing roughly in lockstep. This is the lovely continuous noise of tinnitus.

What signal timing does is disrupt this synchronized firing. That is why the precise timing of the signals matter - if it's wrong, you can actually enhance the synchronization, making tinnitus louder.

Imagine that a band is marching to the beat of a drum, but someone in the audience begins playing another drum which is slightly off-beat to the first one. Some of the band's members will become confused, fall out of lockstep, and the whole formation is disrupted. Hence, tinnitus gets quieter.

The effect is temporary. Because hearing wasn't actually restored, the neurons will, over time, synchronize again. But based on Neuromod's information, this happens over a long time (months, maybe even years). And I speculate that we'll be able to just use the device again to disrupt the neurons once more. So repeated treatment should keep symptoms at bay indefinitely, or until something like FX-322 comes out that regenerates hearing and eliminates the root cause.

Here's the study if you want to know more (full text): https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5863907/

Great description. When the hell are they releasing it?

 

[Paulmanlike]

What I don't understand is that this method has been talked about for the last 5 years (see Susan Shore's YouTube videos from 5 years ago) and it's only now this year that a bimodal product is coming out for tinnitus treatment. There's a huge market for this so why not sooner?

 

[JohnAdams]

My understanding comes from Susan Shore's study (because Neuromod's study isn't released yet), but the mechanism of action should be very similar.

The theory is that when there's hearing loss, neurons that should be receiving input don't get any, and just start firing randomly. Over time groups of these neurons gradually get in sync, and we end up with a bunch of auditory neurons firing roughly in lockstep. This is the lovely continuous noise of tinnitus.

What signal timing does is disrupt this synchronized firing. That is why the precise timing of the signals matter - if it's wrong, you can actually enhance the synchronization, making tinnitus louder.

Imagine that a band is marching to the beat of a drum, but someone in the audience begins playing another drum which is slightly off-beat to the first one. Some of the band's members will become confused, fall out of lockstep, and the whole formation is disrupted. Hence, tinnitus gets quieter.

The effect is temporary. Because hearing wasn't actually restored, the neurons will, over time, synchronize again. But based on Neuromod's information, this happens over a long time (months, maybe even years). And I speculate that we'll be able to just use the device again to disrupt the neurons once more. So repeated treatment should keep symptoms at bay indefinitely, or until something like FX-322 comes out that regenerates hearing and eliminates the root cause.

Here's the study if you want to know more (full text): https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5863907/

Ah, that makes sense. So it is basically tinnitus retraining therapy that actually works.

So can we declare Jastreboff defeated?

 

[Allan1967]

Q1 so before March? How do you know @Jack Straw?

Just Ireland or UK?

 

[Paulmanlike]

Ah, that makes sense. So it is basically tinnitus retraining therapy that actually works.

So can we declare Jastreboff defeated?

Jastreboff is so 1980's, it's now 2019 and a well deserved treatment is en route.

@JohnAdams you were recently content that this was a scam, what's changed?

@hans799 well done for the explanation in layman's terms. I wish @Greg Sacramento was a bit more like that ha ha.

 

[GregCA]

What I don't understand is that this method has been talked about for the last 5 years (see Susan Shore's YouTube videos from 5 years ago) and it's only now this year that a bimodal product is coming out for tinnitus treatment. There's a huge market for this so why not sooner?

You need to prove safety, efficacy. Animals, then humans. That takes quite a long time. Having a hunch is just the beginning of the pipeline. After that tons of things need to happen.

 

[Heinrich_S7]

If we can only buy it from one location then they really should do shipping. At least to Europe where it's approved. I have family in England and they'd ship it to me.

Didn't the new article say audiologists won't handle it now?

 

[ruud1boy]

If we can only buy it from one location then they really should do shipping. At least to Europe where it's approved. I have family in England and they'd ship it to me.

Didn't the new article say audiologists won't handle it now?

What new article? Someone earlier in this thread suggested Neuromod were going to dispense it directly, but that was just speculation IIRC. If they want to make money, they're going to have to get other people / organisations / agencies involved, but I fear that's a long way down the road. They're only just starting to crawl, never mind walk or run.

 

[Paulmanlike]

Really surprised Josef Rauschecker didn't know anything about bimodal stimulation.

 

[Heinrich_S7]

It was somewhere in this thread or in the Q&A Neuromod thread, the article was behind a paywall too, and someone posted it. It said Q1/2019 Europe release and 2020 America release (that one really pissed me off).

They better hurry up. The very moment it's available in Europe I'm going. Fuck tinnitus and screw 2020.

I'm hoping Minnesota or Susan Shore release their device soon because it will bolster competition whereas right now there is none. Neuromod has a monopoly right now. If other players enter into market they'll have to open their mouths and get the device in our hands faster...

At least I can hope >.>

 

[annV]

It was somewhere in this thread or in the Q&A Neuromod thread, the article was behind a paywall too, and someone posted it. It said Q1/2019 Europe release and 2020 America release (that one really pissed me off).

I posted it!

Here is the full article!


Neuromod, a healthcare start-up developing treatments for tinnitus, is in talks to raise up to €24m in investment.

Accounts just filed for the business state that the directors are in "advanced discussions with third-party investors" and are "confident of securing additional investment of €24m" in the coming months.

The accounts also state that Neuromod expects to start generating revenue in the first quarter of 2019 following a successful period of clinical trials.

Headquartered in Dublin's Digital Hub, Neuromod specialises in non-invasive treatment to help patients suffering with tinnitus, a chronic clicking or buzzing in the ears which affects about 10% of the population.

"Building on the successful results of our large-scale multi-centre clinical trials, the company now plans to raise the capital to bring this revolutionary tinnitus treatment to the millions of patients whose clinical needs are currently unmet," said Ross O'Neill, the company's chief executive, in a statement last week.

With European regulatory approval already in place, Neuromod will make its product available to tinnitus sufferers in Europe from 2019.

The company also plans to pursue US Food & Drug Administration approval to launch the product in America in 2020, said O'Neill.

Neuromod was founded in 2010 by O'Neill as a spin-out from Maynooth University. It has already been backed by investors including Fountain Healthcare. In 2015, the company announced it had raised €5.5m, taking its total funding to €8m.

 

[Heinrich_S7]

I posted it!

Thank you so much annV! Bless your heart ^^

 

[Greg Sacramento]

@hans799 well done for the explanation in layman's terms. I wish @Greg Sacramento was a bit more like that ha ha.

Thanks. I do agree with you as some aspects of physical tinnitus have several biological complications, but then for some physical cause of tinnitus can be as simple as chocolate cake for lunch.

How's this for simple - Neuromod. We all have a tongue. Unless there's tongue, artery or Roman numbered nerve complications then this stimulation process should help. Otherwise then refer to Susan Shore and company or other physical cause treatment.

This neuro research is 45 years old and it started for other neuro disease such as MS at MIT, Harvard and Dartmouth.
I had processed some of that biological information with use of old assembly languages. To be honest though, I didn't know what I was doing and few others did also. One who was a genius decided to accept a job at Honeywell for big bucks and this whole research process went down the drain. Expense beyond understanding was the reason.

 

[annV]

You'd think Minnesota and Michigan would release their devices sooner now that Neuromod has hit the scene. By the time those two devices hit the market Neuromod will have fixed everyone up. At least if Susan Shore really takes until 2023... Which I'm hoping is just a rumor.

If they don't make a move they aren't going to make precious money (which is really what this is all about). As much as these people are trying to help us, it's a secondary goal. Tinnitus having a cure for symptoms will net the first company that does it both billions of dollars and Nobel Prizes.

You are forgetting Susan Shore (University of Michigan) and University of Minnesota are not commercial companies! The researchers there have salaries, tenures, they are comfortable and are working for a monthly check. Those universities are not agile commercial motherships.

 

[Heinrich_S7]

You are forgetting Susan Shore (University of Michigan) and University of Minnesota are not commercial companies! The researchers there have salaries, tenures, they are comfortable and are working for a monthly check. Those universities are not agile commercial motherships.

Still, you'd think someone would patent that technology and put it up for market.

Billions would be made if this evil thing was cured.

 

[GregCA]

You'd think Minnesota and Michigan would release their devices sooner now that Neuromod has hit the scene.

Someone else releasing something doesn't remove any requirements in proving that your treatment is safe and efficacious, neither does it remove any and all the regulation processes that need to happen downstream from that.

It's not like they are going slower on purpose. I don't expect any change in their velocity due to that.

Clinical trials are just a slow process by nature. You can't tell if some treatment has bad side effects after 12 months in less than 12 months, no matter how fast you want to go. Biology has its own clock. If I recall correctly, the #1 reason studies take so long is patient enrollment, and I would not be surprised if this was even "more true" for tinnitus-related studies.

 

[Greg Sacramento]

You are forgetting Susan Shore (University of Michigan) and University of Minnesota are not commercial companies! The researchers there have salaries, tenures, they are comfortable and are working for a monthly check. Those universities are not agile commercial motherships.

True, but with Neuromod we don't know if there's hidden mutual expression - mutual unexpressed public noted desires among investors including Foundation Healthcare to bring the organization public.

I assume that there is hidden desires to become public as to the amount of private funds. All invested in this start up would make millions if they went public. Then after going public even with losses, there are many ways to raise cash. Some public biotech companies with failed research have been in business since the 1980's.

 

[hans799]

You are forgetting Susan Shore (University of Michigan) and University of Minnesota are not commercial companies! The researchers there have salaries, tenures, they are comfortable and are working for a monthly check. Those universities are not agile commercial motherships.

Capitalism in action. Witness the difference between entities that have a profit motive, and those that don't.

 

[Agrajag364]

Really surprised Josef Rauschecker didn't know anything about bimodal stimulation.

Is that what the research this product is based on is called?

 

[Paulmanlike]

Is that what the research this product is based on is called?

Yeah, Neuromod is all about bimodal stimulation. @TuxedoCat actually made a very good point to my comment and you can view it in the other thread.

 

[annV]

I would like to know what @RCP1 thinks of all of this now? Still excited for the launch later this year?

 

[spedgas]

I would like to know what @RCP1 thinks of all of this now? Still excited for the launch later this year?

I've been wondering about his status as well.