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- Thread starter threefirefour
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No you friggen wont. You will cherish your new haircells like a new born baby.
The current state of tinnitus research show that humans suck at tinnitus research.
In America, the Department of Defense may be our only hope.
John, what industry do you work in?
I worked for the VA for awhile as a biomedical engineer, hated the medical industry, switched to computer programming, now I work in SAP as a subcontractor for a large multinational corporation. how about you?
I really just wanted to be a rockstar but that didn't workout. In college I was in a pretty good band, but our band leader was a douche and the band broke up and the rest of my musician friends were unmotivated to start any projects.
I got offered a contract to play bass in a somewhat successful band I auditioned for but turned it down because the dudes in the band wanted me to do molly (MDMA) and acid with them, and were pushy about it, and I'm not into that kind of stuff. I'm good at guitar and bass without having to geek out on friggen hard drugs. Plus I didn't really want to be on the road touring all the time.
I was a clinical research director in the consumer healthcare division of a big pharmaceutical company. I left industry about 10 years ago and did consulting for several years. I'm fully retired now. I'm a church treasurer and this year I hope to do something to raise awareness to hearing loss and tinnitus among high school age kids.
Kain
Member
- Aug 25, 2018
- 365
- 26
- Tinnitus Since
- March, 2018
- Cause of Tinnitus
- excessive loud music through earbuds
https://www.ata.org/members/tinnitus-today-latest-issue
Guys the latest issue of Tinnitus Today is out!! Let's learn about the emotional impact of tinnitus! That's a perfect topic for tinnitus patients, if they hadn't told me how it impacted me I would have absolutely no idea. I'm so grateful!
And of course it's got the latest information on sound generators, wow I am so lucky to live in the twenty first century where we have access to this groundbreaking technology. This will surely help me manage my tinnitus.
And finally it's actually gonna help me understand those critical tinnitus questionnaires! I once stayed up all night trying to figure one out! Understanding questionnaires is one of the most critical steps in managing my tinnitus and achieving palpituationism.
Oh well. At least the main title actually seems to be about research. Not that I'm ever giving a dime to that organization anyways unless they completely overhaul.
Guys the latest issue of Tinnitus Today is out!! Let's learn about the emotional impact of tinnitus! That's a perfect topic for tinnitus patients, if they hadn't told me how it impacted me I would have absolutely no idea. I'm so grateful!
And of course it's got the latest information on sound generators, wow I am so lucky to live in the twenty first century where we have access to this groundbreaking technology. This will surely help me manage my tinnitus.
And finally it's actually gonna help me understand those critical tinnitus questionnaires! I once stayed up all night trying to figure one out! Understanding questionnaires is one of the most critical steps in managing my tinnitus and achieving palpituationism.
Oh well. At least the main title actually seems to be about research. Not that I'm ever giving a dime to that organization anyways unless they completely overhaul.
I didn't realize you can actually access the magazine online.
Neuromod took out an ad on page 24. Doesn't say anything we don't already know. IDK seems like kinda weird ad TBH but whatever.
Neuromod took out an ad on page 24. Doesn't say anything we don't already know. IDK seems like kinda weird ad TBH but whatever.
Tinnitus handicap inventory:
https://www.ata.org/sites/default/files/Tinnitus_Handicap_Inventory.pdf
If Neuromod is using this criteria as part of their studies then I'm calling shenanigans. 9/25 of those questions are about how you "feel".
How you feel is completely subjective.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure that the Neuromod uses vagus nerve stimulation and tones to achieve their results.
Look at this report:
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-017-12178-w
"The aim of the pilot study was to evaluate the effect of Vagus Nerve Stimulation (VNS) paired with sounds in chronic tinnitus patients. "
The criteria is based on the THI, which is a very subjective measure, and the results listed here, while showing a positive trend, aren't even that significant. They are very laughable in my opinion.
If this type of thing can make your tinnitus go away and return you to silence, why isn't there a data point that results in zero? Because it's goofy snake oil TRT?
So this type of technology which is being hyped by the establishment is only going to make you feel slightly better about your tinnitus. TRT 2.0!!!!!!
I'd say what most of us with ototoxicity and NIHL really want is more focus on regenerating our lost hearing using emerging regenerative technology which will likely have a tangible effect on our tinnitus, maybe even cure it.
https://www.ata.org/sites/default/files/Tinnitus_Handicap_Inventory.pdf
If Neuromod is using this criteria as part of their studies then I'm calling shenanigans. 9/25 of those questions are about how you "feel".
How you feel is completely subjective.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure that the Neuromod uses vagus nerve stimulation and tones to achieve their results.
Look at this report:
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-017-12178-w
"The aim of the pilot study was to evaluate the effect of Vagus Nerve Stimulation (VNS) paired with sounds in chronic tinnitus patients. "
The criteria is based on the THI, which is a very subjective measure, and the results listed here, while showing a positive trend, aren't even that significant. They are very laughable in my opinion.
If this type of thing can make your tinnitus go away and return you to silence, why isn't there a data point that results in zero? Because it's goofy snake oil TRT?
So this type of technology which is being hyped by the establishment is only going to make you feel slightly better about your tinnitus. TRT 2.0!!!!!!
I'd say what most of us with ototoxicity and NIHL really want is more focus on regenerating our lost hearing using emerging regenerative technology which will likely have a tangible effect on our tinnitus, maybe even cure it.
From the Neuromod website:
"The main indicators of relative clinical efficacy for the three different parameter sets are two patient-reported outcomes measures, the Tinnitus Handicap Inventory and the Tinnitus Functional Index"
https://www.neuromoddevices.com/content/1-company/2-clinical-advancement/e018465.full.pdf
So just kinda TRT?????? yes/no?
"The main indicators of relative clinical efficacy for the three different parameter sets are two patient-reported outcomes measures, the Tinnitus Handicap Inventory and the Tinnitus Functional Index"
https://www.neuromoddevices.com/content/1-company/2-clinical-advancement/e018465.full.pdf
So just kinda TRT?????? yes/no?
https://www.pnas.org/content/112/47/14723
95% of audiotory nerve fibers are type 1, and only transfer sound.
type II afferent only make up 5% of auditory nerve fibers and are only attached to outer hair cells.
When massive outer hair cell damage and trauma is occurring these two II afferent's wake up and start sending pain signals. What we need to know is do they turn off if the inner ear heals or if some how a bio-medical regenerative scenario allows hair cells and ribbon synapses to come back.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Group_C_nerve_fiber
Type II afferent fall into a large category of noceptive nerves called Group C fibers
They all lack myelin and seem to be slowly activated by bodily damage.
Their main characteristic is giving a slow aching and burning pain that spreads throughout the damaged region.
C fibers respond to stimuli which have stronger intensities and are the ones to account for the slow, but deeper and spread out over an unspecific area, second pain.[1]
The problem is some people experience a quick jolt of pain, not a delay for a second or two. Unless I'm missing something there could be more too it. I'm not an expert on otology or the peripheral nervous system.
At least it's not the disaster that was the Spring 2018 edition, but that's setting a really low bar.
I believe that McLean said in his presentation that the new hair cells also come with new ribbon synapses. In that Stanford presentation he said that auditory nerves grow and attach to the supporting cells of the new haircells and called it a miracle.
is any research being done for these tho
NVM didn't see john's post
would still be interesting to see research focusing on these specifically though
Its basically impossible to directly measure in a living (in vivo) human being because they are up in your skull.
They have to test rodents and dissect them many many times to verify these things are happening.
The measure in humans is the end result of hearing restoration and this is basically only measured with audiograms. But that's great because that indicates that the entire system as a whole has improved. If your hearing comes back, your tinnitus, HA, and NA, distortion gets better, then who cares what happened inside?
Like if you get a cut, do you care to know about the thousands of chemical processes that occur during healing or the end result of the cut closing up and the pain going away?
yeah of course the end result is what matters but from what i've read 95% of research mentions hair cells and seems to ignore the ribbons part. i've read enough of contrast's posts to get an idea of how little they're talked about. except for your "it's a miracle" quote i've never seen anything about their regeneration being possible
Okay here is my master theory of why ears dont heal, why they hurt with sound or no sound.
When you get cut, it hurts, why? Your cells secrete chemicals that send pain signals to your brain so you realize that what you did damaged you and not to do that again, as well as make you guard and protect the cut so it can heal.
The way it heals is that platelets form clots to stop the bleeding.
The platelets secrete GROWTH FACTORS that initiate a natural process where our cells, which are highly complex biomechanical machines to start to divide and reform structures, and heal. This all just happens. Very very very complex cascading chemical events are preprogrammed to occur in our bodies.
More here:
https://www.urmc.rochester.edu/encyclopedia/content.aspx?ContentTypeID=134&ContentID=143
And this:
"Investigation implicates the platelet as the initiator of wound healing"
Source:
Wound healing. The role of platelet-derived growth factor and transforming growth factor beta.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/8116205/
Our cochleas arent full of blood, they are full of endolymph and perilymph.
http://www.cochlea.eu/en/cochlea/cochlear-fluids
Pretty sure we need blood to heal. With out blood, chemical messengers that signal endogenous healing functions are not there.
When a wound doesnt heal it hurts. That's probably why our ears hurt, because they are actually wounded, from mechanical overstimulation, the glutamate storm or something else and the stagnant state of the wound causes our cochlear cells to secrete the chemical that triggers pain signals. And they probably will be vulnerable to hurting until the wound heals.
Thankfully, they have discovered a class of drugs called notch inhibitors that mimic initiate new hair cells to be formed, but it is unclear if they initiate actual would healing.
Maybe concentrated applications of platelets, which is what heals us in the first place, and what PRP is, can heal our cochlear wounds.
When you get cut, it hurts, why? Your cells secrete chemicals that send pain signals to your brain so you realize that what you did damaged you and not to do that again, as well as make you guard and protect the cut so it can heal.
The way it heals is that platelets form clots to stop the bleeding.
The platelets secrete GROWTH FACTORS that initiate a natural process where our cells, which are highly complex biomechanical machines to start to divide and reform structures, and heal. This all just happens. Very very very complex cascading chemical events are preprogrammed to occur in our bodies.
More here:
https://www.urmc.rochester.edu/encyclopedia/content.aspx?ContentTypeID=134&ContentID=143
And this:
"Investigation implicates the platelet as the initiator of wound healing"
Source:
Wound healing. The role of platelet-derived growth factor and transforming growth factor beta.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/8116205/
Our cochleas arent full of blood, they are full of endolymph and perilymph.
http://www.cochlea.eu/en/cochlea/cochlear-fluids
Pretty sure we need blood to heal. With out blood, chemical messengers that signal endogenous healing functions are not there.
When a wound doesnt heal it hurts. That's probably why our ears hurt, because they are actually wounded, from mechanical overstimulation, the glutamate storm or something else and the stagnant state of the wound causes our cochlear cells to secrete the chemical that triggers pain signals. And they probably will be vulnerable to hurting until the wound heals.
Thankfully, they have discovered a class of drugs called notch inhibitors that mimic initiate new hair cells to be formed, but it is unclear if they initiate actual would healing.
Maybe concentrated applications of platelets, which is what heals us in the first place, and what PRP is, can heal our cochlear wounds.
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We know that. you are repeating yourself and forcing me to repeat myself like a broken record.
New hair cells do come with new ribbon synapses confirmed.
but damaged hair cells with less ribbon synapses stay damaged.
Noise Exposure causes ribbon synapses to die on living hair cells, THIS HAPPENS BEFORE HAIR CELLS DIE, LIVING HAIR CELLS EXIST THROUGHOUT THE COCHLEA WITHOUT SYNAPTIC RIBBONS WHICH CAUSES MUSIC TO SOUND LIKE BROKEN GARBAGE, BUT DOES NOT EFFECT THE HEALTH OF THE HAIR CELL.
NEW HAIR CELLS GROWING BACK WITH NEW SYNAPTIC RIBBONS WILL NOT MAKE UP FOR DAMAGED EXISTING ONES. IT WILL JUST GIVE BACK USELESS SUPER HIGH FREQUENCIES.
Unless tinnitus is in super high pitches then tinnitus will not resolve, music will still sound less pleasant if a song has excessive components of noise.
Now you have to show me evidence that damaged hair cells will be repaired with new synaptic ribbons so I can have an orgasmic miracle cure, or just admit your are riding the wrong wave.
John you are forced to answer my question about Ribbon synapses.
When Frequency Therapeutics regenerates new hair cells, will they also repair ribbon synapses on currently existing hair cells that lack them? I am 100% aware new hair cells have new ribbon synapses but you have shown no evidence that existing hair cells will be repaired.
When Frequency Therapeutics regenerates new hair cells, will they also repair ribbon synapses on currently existing hair cells that lack them? I am 100% aware new hair cells have new ribbon synapses but you have shown no evidence that existing hair cells will be repaired.
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