New University of Michigan Tinnitus Discovery — Signal Timing

[Jonno02]

Why should I even worry about frequencies above 8000 Hz if they don't affect communication anyway? I've spoken to several audiologists with decades in the field, and one at Mass Eye and Ear, and they all said that unless it affects the communication area, not to worry.

Audiologist: Don't worry about anything over 8 kHz.
My tinnitus at 11 kHz whilst I'm trying to relax: YOU WILL WORRY ABOUT MEeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.

I might appear to be ungrateful for this view point, but to go back on topic:

I'm a little P'd off that Dr. Shore's team have delayed submission of this device in order to get a publication. If the data shows it's effective and the FDA review it and deem it to be satisfactory, it could have been on the shelves half way through this year. If you're that confident in your device, you don't need other academics to review your data prior to launch. Do it after FDA submission if a publication is so important to you.

All a publication is is bragging rights and a badge of honour. They have delayed treatment to millions of people by half a year, at least, and prolonged suffering because they wanted a publication prior to submission. I just don't get it. But that's obviously not an impartial viewpoint and is an emotional response from someone who suffers from this condition.

 

[Nick1996]

They've only tested it on somatic tinnitus sufferers so far. Probably because that's the group that would be more likely to respond to the treatment. She's said they'll get it it working for other kinds of tinnitus after it's released and make it more effective for the people already responding to it.

That's why I don't get people with this condition saying "I don't know if it'll work for me because my tinnitus is caused by hearing loss." All tinnitus is related to hearing loss (hidden hearing loss or otherwise), far as I know!

So this is the real deal then? This is what is actually going to help us?

 

[dj_newark]

I think this has only been partly discussed here: Could we speculate how Dr. Shore's device will eventually apply to non-somatic patients (I mean how it could still work for them)?

I used to be able to modulate my tones, but now they are rather constant, so I would likely not count as a somatic patient. This decreases my hope for it, and I need some hope.

Also, what about "metallic" sounds like geiger counter sounds? Could they be included in the stimulus?

It's only been tested on somatic tinnitus sufferers. That doesn't mean that it won't work on non-somatic forms of the disorder. She's clearly stated that she will try to get the device working for non-somatic tinnitus after the device's initial release.

 

[AfroSnowman]

They've only tested it on somatic tinnitus sufferers so far. Probably because that's the group that would be more likely to respond to the treatment. She's said they'll get it it working for other kinds of tinnitus after it's released and make it more effective for the people already responding to it.

That's why I don't get people with this condition saying "I don't know if it'll work for me because my tinnitus is caused by hearing loss." All tinnitus is related to hearing loss (hidden hearing loss or otherwise), far as I know!

I don't think that there was anything in the clinical trials' eligibility criteria that refers to the source of the tinnitus (noise, ototoxic, SSHL, etc), only that it was somatic, meaning that movement can modulate the sound in some way.

 

[Joeseph Stope]

@Joeseph Stope, and what about people with normal audiogram?

Umm... I'll divide that into two categories:

a) People with a normal audiogram but yet have tinnitus

b) People advanced in years and have a normal audiogram for their age group, i.e. some hearing loss --- and yet have no tinnitus.

The thick plottens!

I'm sure you'll agree...

 

[dj_newark]

So this is the real deal then? This is what is actually going to help us?

Yes that is what I believe. There seems to be a misconception about what "somatic tinnitus" is. All that means is that you can modulate your tinnitus sound with head and neck movements. That says nothing about what caused the tinnitus, whether that be ototoxic medications, noise exposure, SSHL or what have you.

So right now they've only verified that it works on somatic tinnitus. We don't know whether it'll work for non-somatic yet until the device is released into the wild. And as I've been saying, Dr. Shore has every intention to get this working for non-somatic tinnitus after the device is released.

 

[Nick47]

We have a treatment coming to market that will reduce tinnitus for a significant percentage of people. This is a first. It's groundbreaking and hopefully just the beginning. I'm suffering, many are suffering, however, it's a better position than those suffering 10 years ago. With Tinnitus Week not far away there's also that limited window to get together...

 

[Nick1996]

Yes that is what I believe. There seems to be a misconception about what "somatic tinnitus" is. All that means is that you can modulate your tinnitus sound with head and neck movements. That says nothing about what caused the tinnitus, whether that be ototoxic medications, noise exposure, SSHL or what have you.

So right now they've only verified that it works on somatic tinnitus. We don't know whether it'll work for non-somatic yet until the device is released into the wild. And as I've been saying, Dr. Shore has every intention to get this working for non-somatic tinnitus after the device is released.

I just hope it comes out within the next year or so. No matter what my situation is, no ringing would be a beautiful thing.

 

[Champ]

Audiologist: Don't worry about anything over 8 kHz.
My tinnitus at 11 kHz whilst I'm trying to relax: YOU WILL WORRY ABOUT MEeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.

I might appear to be ungrateful for this view point, but to go back on topic:

I'm a little P'd off that Dr. Shore's team have delayed submission of this device in order to get a publication. If the data shows it's effective and the FDA review it and deem it to be satisfactory, it could have been on the shelves half way through this year. If you're that confident in your device, you don't need other academics to review your data prior to launch. Do it after FDA submission if a publication is so important to you.

All a publication is is bragging rights and a badge of honour. They have delayed treatment to millions of people by half a year, at least, and prolonged suffering because they wanted a publication prior to submission. I just don't get it. But that's obviously not an impartial viewpoint and is an emotional response from someone who suffers from this condition.

Most of us here have had tinnitus for a while. You should be more grateful - all of us old timers have dealt with not just tinnitus but numerous letdowns and scams through the years. It's actually insane how many people want a solution for this but one doesn't exist yet. Finally, we have a single researcher who is actually doing rigorous research and development and the results in the papers are showing up in a big way.

Dr. Susan Shore has been doing this the right way for *decades* now because she's a legitimate scientist and researcher, so to say she's "delayed" the release of her device couldn't be further from the truth, this has been her entire life work and she is making sure everything systematically and scientifically. She has tinnitus herself and probably knows many others who do as well so she has been working to get the device out ASAP for a while.

I've always *hoped* that all the other attempts & failures would work and honestly until I use this myself I can't let myself get too up or optimistic but if her numbers from the study are accurate at all, then we finally have a bonafide solution, so it would be best to wait and use it yourself to see what you get out of it or at least be grateful she's done so much work on this at all instead of pretending she's victimizing you and the rest of us, because she's definitely working to help us, that much is clear.

 

[2noist]

Most of us here have had tinnitus for a while. You should be more grateful - all of us old timers have dealt with not just tinnitus but numerous letdowns and scams through the years. It's actually insane how many people want a solution for this but one doesn't exist yet. Finally, we have a single researcher who is actually doing rigorous research and development and the results in the papers are showing up in a big way.

Dr. Susan Shore has been doing this the right way for *decades* now because she's a legitimate scientist and researcher, so to say she's "delayed" the release of her device couldn't be further from the truth, this has been her entire life work and she is making sure everything systematically and scientifically. She has tinnitus herself and probably knows many others who do as well so she has been working to get the device out ASAP for a while.

I've always *hoped* that all the other attempts & failures would work and honestly until I use this myself I can't let myself get too up or optimistic but if her numbers from the study are accurate at all, then we finally have a bonafide solution, so it would be best to wait and use it yourself to see what you get out of it or at least be grateful she's done so much work on this at all instead of pretending she's victimizing you and the rest of us, because she's definitely working to help us, that much is clear.

@Jonno02 has had tinnitus for all of two months but the self-entitlement reeks miles away. How the fu*k can anyone be critical of her in any way or manner? Blows my mind!

 

[Nick47]

Added to this, you have people like David Eagleman and his Neosensory device who have done no research on tinnitus. Look at his publications... nowhere to be seen and no pathophysiology of how it works given.

There are plenty of scammers, plus some legitimate scientists in other fields, who team up and knock together something for venture capital projects.

With a real, dedicated science team the progress is slow and methodical, because no steps are skipped.

 

[Jonno02]

@Jonno02 has had tinnitus for all of two months but the self-entitlement reeks miles away. How the fu*k can anyone be critical of her in any way or manner? Blows my mind!

I've actually had it for around 10 years, but only recently became hyper focused on it. Does having it for that long entitle me to an opinion? Or do I need to meet some other criteria you've laid down?

Of course I can be critical. As a medical researcher myself, I'm a lot closer to developing treatments than you have any insight of. Doesn't take much to blow your mind apparently either.

This place can be so divisive. One minute it's 'we're all in this together' and then you have users, whom I've seen in many historical threads here, say 'oh my tinnitus is worse than yours' or 'I've had it longer.'

I never once said I didn't appreciate her work, all I said is that publications mean nothing. I have 10+ publications and that's only because sometimes collaborations demand it, funnily enough it's always with universities. Publications should never get in the way of going to market if you have an iron clad product that will make it past regulatory approval.

 

[Ken219]

She has tinnitus herself

@Champ, how do you know Dr. Shore has tinnitus?

 

[Jonno02]

@Champ, how do you know Dr. Shore has tinnitus?

She confirmed it via email to another forum user.

 

[Champ]

@Champ, how do you know Dr. Shore has tinnitus?

I don't have a link handy but she's mentioned she does have tinnitus before in an email response to an email sent by another person here.

 

[UKBloke]

Added to this, you have people like David Eagleman and his Neosensory device who have done no research on tinnitus. Look at his publications... nowhere to be seen and no pathophysiology of how it works given.

There are plenty of scammers, plus some legitimate scientists in other fields, who team up and knock together something for venture capital projects.

With a real, dedicated science team the progress is slow and methodical, because no steps are skipped.

Defo. As a layman in all of this, I've blown hot and cold over Dr. Shore's progress a few times over the years. But as various competitor devices (and some of the other scientists too) have come and gone, the UMich team has always been there putting one considered step in front of the other.

I've got to be honest, having witnessed so many letdowns in the past, I'm still prepared for all of this to go tits up. Regardless of that, however, Dr. Shore has certainly earned a place in my heart because she's stood by every word she's ever said, which in a research space occupied by so many shysters and grifters is a real credit to her professionalism.

 

[NYCGuy]

Audiologist: Don't worry about anything over 8 kHz.

My tinnitus at 11 kHz whilst I'm trying to relax: YOU WILL WORRY ABOUT MEeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.

I might appear to be ungrateful for this view point, but to go back on topic:

I'm a little P'd off that Dr. Shore's team have delayed submission of this device in order to get a publication. If the data shows it's effective and the FDA review it and deem it to be satisfactory, it could have been on the shelves half way through this year. If you're that confident in your device, you don't need other academics to review your data prior to launch. Do it after FDA submission if a publication is so important to you.

All a publication is is bragging rights and a badge of honour. They have delayed treatment to millions of people by half a year, at least, and prolonged suffering because they wanted a publication prior to submission. I just don't get it. But that's obviously not an impartial viewpoint and is an emotional response from someone who suffers from this condition.

Really? Publication of the results is fundamental. If her theory works and the tinnitus is in the DCN, this will be huge because now companies can focus on this specifically to treat tinnitus.

It may take long time but you know what, every single company has failed to provide anything that can help us for the past 50 years so I'm very grateful for Susan Shore because she may be the first person in history to finally help tinnitus sufferers.

I have seen tons of companies releasing treatments fast, such as Lenire, and have you seen what happened with those? Total fraud and didn't work.

 

[BuzzyBee]

All tinnitus relates to hearing loss. The American hearing test only goes up to 8000 Hz, and human hearing extends way beyond that. You may not perceive yourself to have hearing loss. Hearing tests may not even show it. This is called 'hidden hearing loss'. Your brain is compensating for some lost inputs, that's how tinnitus starts.

I mean people with significant hearing loss in one or both ears or at least enough to where it shows up on a hearing test. Last I heard about the Shore device is you have to have at least enough hearing to be able to hear the tone they play.

 

[Piney]

Really? Publication of the results is fundamental. If her theory works and the tinnitus is in the DCN, this will be huge because now companies can focus on this specifically to treat tinnitus.

It may take long time but you know what, every single company has failed to provide anything that can help us for the past 50 years so I'm very grateful for Susan Shore because she may be the first person in history to finally help tinnitus sufferers.

I have seen tons of companies releasing treatments fast, such as Lenire, and have you seen what happened with those? Total fraud and didn't work.

These are excellent points.

 

[Tomas80]

Defo. As a layman in all of this, I've blown hot and cold over Dr. Shore's progress a few times over the years. But as various competitor devices (and some of the other scientists too) have come and gone, the UMich team has always been there putting one considered step in front of the other.

I've got to be honest, having witnessed so many letdowns in the past, I'm still prepared for all of this to go tits up. Regardless of that, however, Dr. Shore has certainly earned a place in my heart because she's stood by every word she's ever said, which in a research space occupied by so many shysters and grifters is a real credit to her professionalism.

After 10 years of research, the two graphs from December 2022 Palm Springs Hearing Seminar showed that the device increased the volume of tinnitus in some people. Where do you get so many "guaranteed" reports that everything is great?

 

[Nick47]

I mean people with significant hearing loss in one or both ears or at least enough to where it shows up on a hearing test. Last I heard about the Shore device is you have to have at least enough hearing to be able to hear the tone they play.

@BuzzyBee, what is your hearing loss like? I've got normal hearing in my left ear but severe/profound high frequency hearing loss in the right. Tinnitus probably 8000 Hz. You wear one ear piece regardless of whether your tinnitus is unilateral or bilateral. That's all I know, other than Susan Shore said that it is enough to influence tinnitus in both ears due to multiple connections in the DCN network.

 

[UKBloke]

After 10 years of research, the two graphs from December 2022 Palm Springs Hearing Seminar showed that the device increased the volume of tinnitus in some people. Where do you get so many "guaranteed" reports that everything is great?

I don't understand the question; ""guaranteed" reports that everything is great"?

10 years of research (and that's only the stuff discussed in this 10 year old thread), next the peer review, next the device, and no doubt at some point in between, a Tinnitus Talk review of the statistical data with the pros and cons you're pointing out.

Then, and only then, will I personally make up my own mind. As I said before, I'm still mentally prepared for all this to go tits up.

 

[dd314]

All tinnitus relates to hearing loss. The American hearing test only goes up to 8000 Hz, and human hearing extends way beyond that. You may not perceive yourself to have hearing loss. Hearing tests may not even show it. This is called 'hidden hearing loss'. Your brain is compensating for some lost inputs, that's how tinnitus starts.

It's worth acknowledging that most people with hearing loss don't have any tinnitus, let alone debilitating tinnitus, let alone "suicidal" tinnitus.

 

[Nick47]

Where do you get so many "guaranteed" reports that everything is great?

@Tomas80, no one mentioned guarantee. There was a highly statistical, clinical improvement on 'average' between the sham and intervention with a P value of 0.003. This basically means there was a 1 in 333 chance the results were by chance/probability.

Compare this with Otonomy and Frequency Therapeutics who count a successful trial on any P value below 0.05, basically a 1 in 20 chance the result was by chance. And we've seen that play out as they failed Phase 2 trials.

There are no responders to every single treatment in the world. Look at the ones who don't respond to an antidepressant, antibiotic or blood pressure medication? Some may have got worse or just got worse regardless of the treatment.

What do people want here, a treatment that works for everyone in the world with no chance of anybody having an adverse event?

Give me strength!

 

[GlennS]

After 10 years of research, the two graphs from December 2022 Palm Springs Hearing Seminar showed that the device increased the volume of tinnitus in some people. Where do you get so many "guaranteed" reports that everything is great?

The dreaded "disimprovement" ala Lenire? I certainly hope not.

 

[Jonno02]

@Tomas80

What do people want here, a treatment that works for everyone in the world with no chance of anybody having an adverse event?

Give me strength!

I think people are anxiously awaiting more information and are nervous it may not work for them. No need to jump down his throat for critical thinking.

 

[Gb3]

It's worth acknowledging that most people with hearing loss don't have any tinnitus, let alone debilitating tinnitus, let alone "suicidal" tinnitus.

Well, that's incorrect.

 

[dd314]

Well, that's incorrect.

The figure in question is difficult to find. They're not the same thing.

 

[Nick47]

@Jonno02, I'm not jumping down anyone's throat. I'm as anxious as most. Dr. Shore's device won't work for everyone, just like Clonazepam or Gabapentin or hearing aids don't. It will be a viable treatment for a reasonable chunk of people though. How can we guarantee it? Of course we cannot do so.

 

[Gb3]

The figure in question is difficult to find. They're not the same thing.

Because you just made it up.