New University of Michigan Tinnitus Discovery — Signal Timing

[Jonno02]

It will be a 9 volt battery you tape to your neck with a pair of $1 earbuds that only play one screeching tone.

Lenire's head of R&D: WRITE THAT DOWN!!!

 

[ploughna]

Having been in medical device development for 30 years in startups, most often the R&D, project and development engineers are laid off and the marketing group is staffed up once the product is released, especially when it's a one product company like Neuromod.

You could well be right, but they are also actively hiring bio-med and other engineers right now. The job descriptions mention developing next-gen devices.

 

[Pixelito]

I imagine they'll want to bring it to market as soon as possible so they can make money. Hopefully we hear some news soon.

You would think, right? But we have been saying this for years.

 

[Muggumbo]

You would think, right? But we have been saying this for years.

Well the difference is now there's an actual company involved from my understanding. They'll need our money eventually lol.

 

[Gb3]

You would think, right? But we have been saying this for years.

You've been on here for a couple months lol.

 

[SarahMLFlemmer]

We're getting there! Slowly but surely!

 

[Pixelito]

I agree. We'll know in 6 months on here if it's the product we're all praying it is.

6 months would be great... I think it's going to be at least a year after FDA approval.

 

[Cmspgran]

6 months would be great... I think it's going to be at least a year after FDA approval.

Apologies, folks. What I meant by 6 months was it'll only 6 six months to find out if it's effective or not, once it does come out. There's no more brutal test subjects than us lot and we shoot from the hip, so you can forget real world data, just come to this thread 6 months after it's been launched in America to determine if it actually works or not!

 

[Pixelito]

Apologies, folks. What I meant by 6 months was it'll only 6 six months to find out if it's effective or not, once it does come out. There's no more brutal test subjects than us lot and we shoot from the hip, so you can forget real world data, just come to this thread 6 months after it's been launched in America to determine if it actually works or not!

Definitely. And test subjects showed improvement after as little as 4 weeks.

But 6-12 months should answer any questions about who it can treat and how well.

 

[RunningMan]

Apologies, folks. What I meant by 6 months was it'll only 6 six months to find out if it's effective or not, once it does come out. There's no more brutal test subjects than us lot and we shoot from the hip, so you can forget real world data, just come to this thread 6 months after it's been launched in America to determine if it actually works or not!

That makes more sense with the timeline. Hopefully it doesn't trickle out too slowly once it's launched. Wide scale availability in the U.S. could get dragged out quite a bit longer - maybe a couple years from now. Also we have to be aware there's going to be some placebo effect, at least temporarily, for some people who aren't really helped by the device.

 

[AfroSnowman]

Was there anything in the study that indicated efficacy for severe tinnitus as opposed to more moderate cases?

 

[gameover]

I am so fed up waiting for Dr. Shore's device. I just may not live until it is available. These people do not seem serious or competent. Probably taking their sweet time to burn through investors' money as they pay their salaries. The device may be out eventually but perhaps it will be a similar flop to Lenire. Maybe a little better. Some people will be helped, most won't.

 

[Jonno02]

Was there anything in the study that indicated efficacy for severe tinnitus as opposed to more moderate cases?

Unless specific data points are released, I don't think we'll ever really know the specifics to that level.

I'm trying to look at this device from a high level, there's plenty of great low level analysis already on this thread.

I do believe that tinnitus comes around from maladaptive neuroplasticity. Something somewhere gives up and lets the tinnitus through in some people, but not in others. The specific causal reasons behind tinnitus are inconsequential at a high level.

I think this device slowly but surely introduces positive neuroplasticity back into the malfunctioning circuit. Tinnitus generally gradually appears in patients and gets louder and louder as this circuit malfunctions more and more. In other cases it's a light switch. Boom, loud tinnitus all of a sudden. I believe this is the point where the brain can no longer deal with this malfunction and lets all of the previously filtered out noise through.

If we use the device for a few weeks and see an improvement, the majority of the circuit is still malfunctioning. So if we stop using it, the 'fixed' parts will follow this maladaptive behaviour and return to produce tinnitus. If we use it long enough (6 months, a year, three years?) this positive plasticity becomes the new learned behaviour within the whole circuit and the effects become permanent. Just as the maladaptive behaviour became permanent at one point.

Think of temporary tinnitus after a concert. The brain generally deals with it in 24 hours. But if you keep inducing that behaviour, eventually the damage leads to it becoming learned within the circuit and you develop tinnitus. Some people will have the hearing loss without the tinnitus, because for some reason this behaviour doesn't become learned.

If the mis-firing cells is accurate as proposed by Dr. Shore, then there is no reason their timing can't be permanently fixed in a beneficial way either. So it really might not matter how severe your tinnitus is, that just might mean more of your circuit needs fixed than someone with moderate tinnitus and so it'll take a bit longer.

Copium? Maybe. High expectations? Probably. But when you look at it from a high level, if this device works at all, there's no reason it can't work in this way.

 

[gameover]

So I read the latest paper by Dr. Shore. I don't see any mention what nerve is being stimulated. This has been asked in this thread without good answers. Vagus? Cervical?

This is the picture from an article about Dr. Shore's device:

What nerve/nerves are there? Is someone good with anatomy?

I have a hard time understanding where the magic sauce of the device is vs. other bimodal stimulation methods using the vagus nerve and sound.

I am increasingly suspicious this is yet another bullshit.

P.S. From this article:

It also delivers mild electrical impulses applied to the area of the head involved in the patients' own tinnitus-altering maneuvers.

So the location of electrical stimulation would vary patient-to-patient? How so? That's really weird. Maybe stupidly written article.

 

[BB23]

Does Susan Shore say anything about neuroinflammation and how it contributes to tinnitus? Or does she just address the potassium channels as the issue?

 

[Nick47]

What nerve/nerves are there? Is someone good with anatomy?

Trigeminal nerve, auditory nerve and dorsal column nerve.

 

[Kleiner]

So I read the latest paper by Dr. Shore. I don't see any mention what nerve is being stimulated. This has been asked in this thread without good answers. Vagus? Cervical?

This is the picture from an article about Dr. Shore's device:

View attachment 56366

What nerve/nerves are there? Is someone good with anatomy?

I have a hard time understanding where the magic sauce of the device is vs. other bimodal stimulation methods using the vagus nerve and sound.

I am increasingly suspicious this is yet another bullshit.

I think that instead of making assumptions (positive or negative), it would be more helpful if everyone consulted Dr. Shore's patent.

 

[Jonno02]

So I read the latest paper by Dr. Shore. I don't see any mention what nerve is being stimulated. This has been asked in this thread without good answers. Vagus? Cervical?

This is the picture from an article about Dr. Shore's device:

View attachment 56366

What nerve/nerves are there? Is someone good with anatomy?

I have a hard time understanding where the magic sauce of the device is vs. other bimodal stimulation methods using the vagus nerve and sound.

I am increasingly suspicious this is yet another bullshit.

I checked the patent and found:

The method of claim 4, further comprising applying the somatosensory stimulation signal to the subject by applying stimulation to a trigeminal nerve of the subject via facial stimulation or a cervical spinal nerve of the subject to stimulate the somatosensory system.

 

[gameover]

Trigeminal nerve, auditory nerve and dorsal column nerve.

All the pictures of trigeminal nerve I am finding do not show it there, nor do the others.

The method of claim 4, further comprising applying the somatosensory stimulation signal to the subject by applying stimulation to a trigeminal nerve of the subject via facial stimulation or a cervical spinal nerve of the subject to stimulate the somatosensory system.

Cervical spinal nerve is more like it, it seems.

 

[Nick47]

All the pictures of trigeminal nerve I am finding do not show it there, nor do the others.

I think trigeminal nerve is the one where it's activated by jaw movements. Neck movement is dorsal column.

 

[gameover]

I think trigeminal nerve is the one where it's activated by jaw movements. Neck movement is dorsal column.

Right, maybe the dorsal is there, but trigeminal nerve is around jaw.

Speaking of trigeminal, I get new tone when I open my jaw wide, separate from my "normal" tinnitus. It's loud and consistent, but only when the jaw is open wide. So this part is very somatic. I wonder what it means for me regarding Shore's device efficacy.

 

[Pixelito]

We are a month into Q1. Will the FDA submission be public knowledge, or does Auricle maintain the right to keep that private?

Do we think this will even happen Q1?

 

[Ineedhelp]

We are a month into Q1. Will the FDA submission be public knowledge, or does Auricle maintain the right to keep that private?

Do we think this will even happen Q1?

I spoke to an audiologist today and she said the device is not coming out for years.

 

[Muggumbo]

I spoke to an audiologist today and she said the device is not coming out for years.

Auricle is taking their sweet time, but I'm sure it won't be that long.

 

[Pharz]

So I read the latest paper by Dr. Shore. I don't see any mention what nerve is being stimulated. This has been asked in this thread without good answers. Vagus? Cervical?

This is the picture from an article about Dr. Shore's device:

View attachment 56366

What nerve/nerves are there? Is someone good with anatomy?

I have a hard time understanding where the magic sauce of the device is vs. other bimodal stimulation methods using the vagus nerve and sound.

I am increasingly suspicious this is yet another bullshit.

P.S. From this article:

So the location of electrical stimulation would vary patient-to-patient? How so? That's really weird. Maybe stupidly written article.

I also believe that it's another American scam. There is no dosage to how much their "scientists" and "entrepreneurs" can lie. Look at all these US-based companies having good results for first two trials and failing the third one, and with each trial taking at least 1.5 years, they are getting their salaries for a minimum of 3-5 years before admitting the truth.

Just take a look at the starting date of this thread. Take a look at the Frequency Therapeutics thread.

I know that a lot of you will attack me after posting this comment, but this is the reality and such devices will not work for tinnitus. Some might mention that Dr. Shore is a scientist, and yes, research such as this topic also receive funding from universities and governments. The guy from Frequency Therapeutics was an "MIT" graduate, right?

I spoke to an audiologist today and she said the device is not coming out for years.

Why are we not surprised? The device "will come out" when the last cent of their funding is finished, or the device will fail its final trial and never come out.

I just wonder what the point of all these layman's discussions going on here is.

 

[gameover]

I also believe that it's another American scam. There is no dosage to how much their "scientists" and "entrepreneurs" can lie. Look at all these US-based companies having good results for first two trials and failing the third one, and with each trial taking at least 1.5 years, they are getting their salaries for a minimum of 3-5 years before admitting the truth.

That's my worry behind my other comment, about taking time while paying their salaries. Frequency Therapeutics was a purposefully planned scam. Granted they went public, made a lot of noise, and raised funding to run their scheme. Auricle sitting tight and being privately funded gives some hope that the product might be legit for a change.

I don't know, I am just frustrated.

 

[UHPTS]

I just wonder what the point of all these layman's discussions going on here is.

Even though we know that Auricle device is a scam, we prefer to live with some hope. It's easier that way.

 

[Daphne91]

It doesn't really have the hallmarks of a scam though, does it? 20+ years of research, let by a renowned scientist, headquartered in California with an equally solid business and strategy team behind it that seem to be following all legit processes, several promising clinical trials published in respected scientific journals etc.

I also think they are aware that people with tinnitus are HIGHLY suspicious about treatments (case in point ), so I'm sure they don't think we're easy 'targets' to sell something that doesn't work.

At the very least I don't think you can say with certainty it's a scam! Unless you know something I don't

As for the layman's discussions, yes, some of the things posted on this thread is speculation and stream of consciousness' thoughts, but I've picked up several interesting links and bits of information about the device's progress through here.

I think if there is a development, we'll hear it here first (no pun intended).

 

[dj_newark]

I spoke to an audiologist today and she said the device is not coming out for years.

She doesn't know any more than you or I do. She's speculating. That's practically all this thread is, just speculation. Some are more informed than others however!

 

[2noist]

To think that Auricle or Dr. Shore's work is a scam, is preposterous. This is decades worth of research. It would be the world's most idiotic long con. They know tinnitus patients would quickly spread word if the device doesn't work. It's not an automatic millionaire maker when it's not even out yet. And they are privately funded with not that much money apparently so I bet they are bootstrapping it with very little salary if any for now.

I understand we're all pessimistic by now with all the failed treatments but god almighty, can we at least have some common sense and not call things scams when they so obviously are not?