Poll: Driving. Earplugs, Earmuffs or No Protection?

[Lane]

Over protecting the auditory system with the use of earplugs, earmuff etc, will lower the loudness threshold of the auditory system. This often makes tinnitus and hyperaucusis worse and can lead to phonophobia, misphophonia and other psychological problems.

That all sounds right to me. I've come to believe each individual has to reach a certain stage of healing however, before they no longer need to be over overly protective. And that stage will be different for each of us. Though I think I understand the risks you're articulating if someone goes beyond that stage, and stays overly protective for too long a period of time.​

 

[Michael Leigh]

Can a loud noise make existing T worse? The answer is clearly "Yes". When one is out on the street, one can be exposed to loud noises. You don't know when it will happen, but eventually it will happen

I can see you are after a heated debate @Bill Bauer and I'm not going down this route. I will end by saying this. 99.999 percent of the time, environmental sound will do absolutely nothing to a person's tinnitus once they have habituated. If a person has hyperacusis, and this doesn't improve over time or professional treatment is not sought, then a person will usually have problems with some sounds but this won't necessarily cause harm. In the majority of cases normal everyday sounds on the street no matter how loud will not cause harm. It is fear, negative thinking that causes the harm.

All the best
Michael

 

[yonkapin]

It is not illegal for deaf people to drive.
https://axleaddict.com/safety/Deaf-People-Drive

Good point!

 

[Lane]

People whose experiences are consistent with my advice, contact me and share their experiences with me. The same might be happening to you.

That sounds about right. Which takes me back to my original question, as to whether both of you could be right. And the answer to me appears to be a pretty clear yes. Much to learn from each side of this discussion, so that each individual can best discern what's right for them at any given time. -- I really appreciate the insights both of you have to offer!​

 

[Bill Bauer]

I can see you are after a heated debate @Bill Bauer

I am making these posts to help new T sufferers. You appear to me to be after a heated debate (two can play this game).

99.999 percent of the time, environmental sound will do absolutely nothing to a person's tinnitus once they have habituated.

As you might remember, a loud phone caused a very serious 3-month spike for me, and (about 6 months ago) clanking glass plates caused T to spread to my other ear. I still have T in both ears...

 

[JurgenG]

Depends on your car, in the super early stage I might advise to use earplugs for older cars and bad roads and higher speeds. (this is far from scientific)

Though.

I know I've been using them too much, so I've gotten really sensitive to sound, it shaped my own H.
I was even using them in my BMW 5 series, which is a really decent isolated car.

So I would say, don't use them too much, unless it's a 5 hours drive in a an old van or something.

 

[Bobby B]

Use earmuffs whenever you feel there is no need for your ears to listen to the sound

Regardless of sound volume

It's not possible to make yourself permanently suffering from hyperacusis with too much silence

This isn't a risk unlike permanent tinnitus

Big difference in outcome

Irreversible vs reversible is the key difference in those debates on protection

And even then muffs will only take out 30db so you will only have pure silence if you wear those in a 30db environment not a car

 

[Julien87]

As you might remember, a loud phone caused a very serious 3-month spike for me

When this kind of thing happens, I always wonder if it's the noise itself that created the spike or the anxiety of the person who experienced the "incident". I thus also wonder if a period of anxiety and focus on the T could have a long term impact on the T (increase or, in your case Bill, spreading to the second ear).


Regarding the poll, I voted "I prefer to drive without anything".
I sometimes put plugs though, when I have the not very rational fear of an airbag exploding, which is not likely to happen. I also put plugs for long trips (more than 4 hours)

 

[Bill Bauer]

When this kind of thing happens, I always wonder if it's the noise itself that created the spike or the anxiety of the person who experienced the "incident".

You don't need to wonder, in my case. I Wasn't anxious. After all, A LOUD PHONE can't do THAT much harm, can it?! I only became concerned a week later, after the spike wouldn't go away.

When the plates clanked, I couldn't imagine it having a PERMANENT impact on me (which is all I care about), so I put it out of my mind, and wasn't worried or anxious or even stressed out.

Also,

With regards to noise exposure that isn't dangerous to most people, I developed a new tone in my right ear after a noise exposure at work back in October. I spent about half an hour in an area that I would estimate was at most 90db, but it was probably less than that. I had deeply inserted large foam earplugs at the time, but apparently that was not enough protection. That tone has not gone away, and it's not some psychosomatic spike. Spikes in volume are somewhat relative in my opinion, they can be attributed to stress, lack of sleep, noise exposure, diet, etc., but completely new tones that do not go away are something different.

In my case, T spread to another ear...

 

[RingerBell]

I can see you are after a heated debate @Bill Bauer and I'm not going down this route. I will end by saying this. 99.999 percent of the time, environmental sound will do absolutely nothing to a person's tinnitus once they have habituated. If a person has hyperacusis, and this doesn't improve over time or professional treatment is not sought, then a person will usually have problems with some sounds but this won't necessarily cause harm. In the majority of cases normal everyday sounds on the street no matter how loud will not cause harm. It is fear, negative thinking that causes the harm.

All the best
Michael

I personally agree that overprotection is probably not the way to go as one easily develops hyperacusis and our ears weren't probably designed to be covered when one is not exposed to loud sounds, due to occlusion effect.

However, I would like to discuss this a bit more in detail. One should probably take into account where hearing loss and Tinnitus frequency is located. If one has hearing loss on the frequency ranges which are the most heavily present in modern environmental noise (<500hz), in terms of non-derated sound pressure, they are probably the ones to encounter more problems with environmental noise. And when the tinnitus frequency is on the frequencies where the derating in A-weighting really starts to deviate from non-derated weighting, things might get bit more complicated. For example, passing cars and trucks can easily generate over 100dB(C) and peaks that are way higher, and most of the sound pressure comes from frequencies less than 100hz. I'm not trying to argue whether every passing car is dangerous or not. It might be just something one should think when thinking exposure time and distance from the source.

There's not much empirical evidence to support my statements, because generally hearing test are not done below 125hz or 250hz. As we age we usually lose our low frequency hearing too. Whether it's aging or background noise of modern society, isn't probably the most researched topic in human hearing. It's probably not that noticeable in general because some sensation of low sounds can be felt through vibrations. I just wanted add to discussion that it's not only the decibel reading that matters. It's probably also about the distribution of the sound pressure compared to ones hearing loss/tinnitus frequency.

As an example why this has been puzzling me, is that how can a truck driver sit in his truck cabin, which is within the 85dB(A) limit, for 8 hours and not sustain any hearing damage while sitting on a top of engine pushing out 100dB or more on the low frequencies.

 

[Rajin]

Can a loud noise make existing T worse? The answer is clearly "Yes". When one is out on the street, one can be exposed to loud noises. Yo

I got a question for both of you. If two person have hearing loss /T one from Noise Trauma and the other from Ototoxic meditation. Which one will be more sensitive to noise. One or the other or both.This one of the reason this Forum so important. Both you guy's are great with advice.

 

[TracyJS]

@Michael Leigh
@Bill Bauer
I appreciate both of you trying to help me and guide me as to what to do.
Unfortunately, it leaves me completely confused and anxious as to what to do.
I'm not sure if it was the hour drive home on a noisy highway, and bumpy roads that triggered the spike.
I can tell you I drove there without protection. And seemed fine.
But driving home felt uncomfortable.
All this adds to my anxiety. I do feel like H has gotten worse from the beginning. And T.
Not sure if that is because I have been over protecting
Or underprotecting.
Maybe both.
This drives me crazy.

 

[Michael Leigh]

Not sure if that is because I have been over protecting
Or underprotecting.
Maybe both.
This drives me crazy.

Hi @TracyJS

All that you describe I have been through and a lot more as we have previously discussed. This is the nature of the condition. Please don't try to find answers as to why your tinnitus spiked as things will get better with time. The more attention to pay to it (I now it's not easy) the more stressful you can become. Please talk to your GP when possible as he or she may prescribe something to help with stress and anxiety.

It isn't easy what you're going through but I assure you, overprotecting your auditory system is not a good idea. Using noise reducing earplugs or the musician plugs that you have will suffice but try not to become too dependent on them. You are doing fine although it doesn't feel like it at the moment. I say this because you're getting good days and this is positive. Please read some of the articles that I sent you from my "started threads" on positivity. This helps to reinforce positive thinking even in the downtimes. Also, read the "positivity thread" in this forum where members have posted their success stories. This is very important and I can't impress this upon you enough.

Take care
Michael

 

[Michael Leigh]

I personally agree that overprotection is probably not the way to go as one easily develops hyperacusis and our ears weren't probably designed to be covered when one is not exposed to loud sounds, due to occlusion effect.

However, I would like to discuss this a bit more in detail. One should probably take into account where hearing loss and Tinnitus frequency is located. If one has hearing loss on the frequency ranges which are the most heavily present in modern environmental noise (<500hz), in terms of non-derated sound pressure, they are probably the ones to encounter more problems with environmental noise. And when the tinnitus frequency is on the frequencies where the derating in A-weighting really starts to deviate from non-derated weighting, things might get bit more complicated. For example, passing cars and trucks can easily generate over 100dB(C) and peaks that are way higher, and most of the sound pressure comes from frequencies less than 100hz. I'm not trying to argue whether every passing car is dangerous or not. It might be just something one should think when thinking exposure time and distance from the source.

There's not much empirical evidence to support my statements, because generally hearing test are not done below 125hz or 250hz. As we age we usually lose our low frequency hearing too. Whether it's aging or background noise of modern society, isn't probably the most researched topic in human hearing. It's probably not that noticeable in general because some sensation of low sounds can be felt through vibrations. I just wanted add to discussion that it's not only the decibel reading that matters. It's probably also about the distribution of the sound pressure compared to ones hearing loss/tinnitus frequency.

As an example why this has been puzzling me, is that how can a truck driver sit in his truck cabin, which is within the 85dB(A) limit, for 8 hours and not sustain any hearing damage while sitting on a top of engine pushing out 100dB or more on the low frequencies.

An interesting post and thank you. I want to mention a few things.

Many people that suffer "noise trauma" to the auditory system and develop tinnitus and often hyperacusis, don't have significant hearing loss to the point where they will need to wear a hearing aid. Depending on the severity of the tinnitus and hyperacusis, if it is present, habituation can take up to 18 months sometimes longer. With or without specialist treatment under the care of a Hearing Therapist or Audiologist. However, many people make good improvement within 6 months. It is for this reason I do not recommend anyone to start TRT or CBT until they have had tinnitus for at least 6 months sometimes longer. My post: when should TRT be started, explains in more detail: https://www.tinnitustalk.com/threads/what-is-trt-and-when-should-it-be-started.19024/

Avoiding normal everyday sounds or overusing hearing protection to the point where the loudness threshold of the auditory system is at risk of being reduced isn't a good idea. This can cause many problems that I mention in the following links: https://www.tinnitustalk.com/threads/hyperacusis-as-i-see-it.19174/
https://www.tinnitustalk.com/threads/the-complexities-of-tinnitus-and-hyperacusis.25733/

Michael

 

[Reinier]

When the car has air-bags I will use protection.

 

[Tom Cnyc]

in my first year driving long distances (more than 30-40 mins) would cause a spike. These days I'm 100% fine driving most cars even long distances. I wear earplugs in convertibles though. So does my wife, and her hearing is fine.

Don't worry about occlusion. It's not as big a deal as this site makes it out to be.

Buy GOOD EARPLUGS. Custom plugs go past the second curve of ear canal and largely limit occlusion due to mostly eliminating the gap between the eardrum and the plug. This is more an issue for comfort and clarity than it is for protection though. Customs also also ACTUALLY reduce db according to their advertised numbers b/c they.. ya know. fit.

Foam earplugs are for people who rarely need to protect themselves from sound. Disposable cheap. Anyone with a consistent need to do so should really just buck up the $175 dollars. It's not a porsche - it's a reasonable expense.

This excellent article provided to me by the audiology dept at Weill-Cornell should be shared to everyone in a loud profession / with hearing concerns. https://www.audiologyonline.com/articles/making-the-case-for-custom-12959

 

[Michael Leigh]

When the car has air-bags I will use protection.

Of course this is your choice but not neccessary in my opinion. My car has 10 airbags and I haven't given it a second throught. Fear, anxiety and negative thinking is the problem not sound.

Michael

 

[Reinier]

My car has 10 airbags and I haven't given it a second throught.

Perhaps I will be at that point later in this "journey".
But not just yet.

 

[Bill Bauer]

I'm not sure if it was the hour drive home on a noisy highway, and bumpy roads that triggered the spike.
I can tell you I drove there without protection. And seemed fine.

Spikes can take several days to develop.

I do feel like H has gotten worse from the beginning. And T.

Yes, when you are reckless (pretend that you don't have T) and don't protect your ears, this is what happens. It had been happening to me. Then I began protecting my ears, and began to slowly get better.

Use your common sense, and listen to what your body is trying to tell you.

 

[Bill Bauer]

If two person have hearing loss /T one from Noise Trauma and the other from Ototoxic meditation.

I can only speak about the experiences of people with noise trauma. This is what had caused my T, and this is what I have been focusing on when reading the posts on this website. It is possible that it is the fact that you have T that matters, and not how you got it (i.e., it is the wound [how deep and long it is] that matters, and not what made the wound).

 

[TracyJS]

Spikes can take several days to develop.

Yes, when you are reckless (pretend that you don't have T) and don't protect your ears, this is what happens. It had been happening to me. Then I began protecting my ears, and began to slowly get better.

Use your common sense, and listen to what your body is trying to tell you.

How do you know how much to protect? I use musician ear plugs for the car and grocery store. Foam plugs make me nuts because I can't figure how to insert them properly. Should you protect from everyday sounds in the home? I don't use vacuum or blender or anything like that. I do use a blow dryer on a low setting with plugs although I didn't do that the first few months. I use nature sounds for masking. Sometimes they irritate my ears.

 

[TracyJS]

Yes, when you are reckless (pretend that you don't have T) and don't protect your ears, this is what happens. It had been happening to me. Then I began protecting my ears, and began to slowly get better.

Use your common sense, and listen to what your body is trying to tell you.

I don't think I was pretending I didn't have T. I just didn't realize to the extent that certain noises might not be ok. Of course, I knew to stay away from loud music, movie theatres, clubs, concerts, parties. Those were not my things anyway. But didn't think about every day home and environment sounds.

 

[Jiri]

I'm gonna have to side with Bill, here. Who in the right mind would expect a person with a noise-induced t., that is obviously distressed by it and as a result affected by phonophobia or hyperacusis to throw away their ear protection?

I followed this advice once that a different doctor gave me and this is what happened right after:

On my way from the hospital, right after I left it and got on the road tb exact, I got stuck in a four lane highway traffic jam. Seconds later an ambulance that was flippin RIGHT behind me turned its siren on and it felt like forever till other cars and I allowed safe passage for it.

Terrible advice. I was told by my ENT that your ear has some sort of capability to recover up until a year after the traumatic event has occurred. No.:1 and No.:2 getting rid of h. or phonophobia is a gradual process (best if guided).

So why take chances and gamble with your health? It's all just my opinion. You can disagree, no problem.

why would the highway patrol say anything ?

Sure. I don't know how about in your country, but if I got pulled over here with my nice shining Peltor X4A or any other muffs on for that matter... isn't that kinda self-explanatory already? I don't think deaf people use often safety earmuffs in the 1st place when driving, in the 2nd place some police officers can be jerks, & chances are they know zero about tinnitus, hyperacusis, phonophobia, misophonia so on & so forth.

Needless to say, I'd still rather get fined than be sufferring a bad tinnitus spike later.

...
​

Also, let's stay on the topic, please. Thank you.

I just drove and hour on the highway with musicians ear plugs. My tinnitus spiked. Is that the occlusion effect. Does occlusion make tinnitus worse.

Should I use foam instead or ear muffs?

This how I think about it. Those musician earplugs don't go that far in your ear cannal and there's a gap between the plug and your ear drum. The noise/vibration will bounce off of that plug back in to your eardrum, more here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occlusion_effect

The thing with the foam earplugs is, if properly inserted, they usually go quite deep leaving a minimum space between the plug and your eardrum and thus less of the occlusion effect. Another pro point I can think of is that when you arrive to your destination you don't necessarily have to take them out. Just do whatever you need to do and then get back in the car and carry on driving. If you need to take them out (to be able to communicate better i.e.), then just carry an extra pair on you and plug them back in when you need to. They still offer the best earplug protection on the market.

There's another thing, however. I had a really rough day. Lots of errands to run. I drove 3 hours (an hour n' half was one way) and yea, the weather here is heating up a lot. I'd say good 38 °C (100.4 °F) in my car. I'm not gonna lie I was sweating a lot and noticed that there was a moisture build-up in my ears too. It's foam earplugs after all. I couldn't take my mind off it. I'm not too sure if they still offer the same kind of protection when wet? Probably not. When I took them out my ear cannals were kind of itchy too. It is not a good idea to leave them in your ears for too long. The other thing was that on my way back I accidentally took the wrong route and ended up with my small Škoda car on what appeared to be more like a tank training area (just so so many ditches in the road) rather than a decent road + the heat... well, got lots of vibrations today from all the driving, tested the f. earplugs in 'extreme weather' conditions and will defo let you know if I end up with a tinnitus spike later or not. I sort of feel that it was just so hot in the car tday that even if I wore my earmuffs, the rubber padding would have probably melted.

To conclude why I personally advocate using some sort of ear protection when driving - lots of roadworks this time of a year. Then you get in a city and it gets even worse - heavy machinery, nervous drivers honking all the time, there could be a loud accident within your close proximity, you can't really anticipate it all. Also, your hands should remain on the steering wheel so carrying your fingers with you at all times just doesn't work in this case scenario.

 

[Bill Bauer]

But didn't think about every day home and environment sounds.

Everyday home and environment sounds are ok, as long as you don't get spikes right after (or a day or two after) being exposed to these sounds. Nevertheless, for now my policy has been to try to avoid those sounds if I can (e.g., avoid being around a vacuum cleaner, food processor, etc.) But if you are accidentally around a slamming door, try not to feel too bad about it. If you get a spike after being near a slamming door, then make sure to not be in that area again (or wear earplugs the next time you are in an area where heavy metal doors might slam).

 

[Jiri]

Everyday home and environment sounds are ok, as long as you don't get spikes right after (or a day or two after) being exposed to these sounds. Nevertheless, for now my policy has been to try to avoid those sounds if I can (e.g., avoid being around a vacuum cleaner, food processor, etc.) But if you are accidentally around a slamming door, try not to feel too bad about it. If you get a spike after being near a slamming door, then make sure to not be in that area again (or wear earplugs the next time you are in an area where heavy metal doors might slam).

For real, stay on the topic, please.

 

[Bill Bauer]

For real, stay on the topic, please.

Sorry.

 

[TracyJS]

I hate the foam plugs. I can't figure out how to properly fit them. Believe me I have tried.

I have some ear muffs. I guess I could use those.
It's hard to say what spikes my tinnitus.
I have a lot of anxiety and that can do it. My tinnitus is also very variable.

 

[RingerBell]

An interesting post and thank you. I want to mention a few things.

Many people that suffer "noise trauma" to the auditory system and develop tinnitus and often hyperacusis, don't have significant hearing loss to the point where they will need to wear a hearing aid. Depending on the severity of the tinnitus and hyperacusis, if it is present, habituation can take up to 18 months sometimes longer. With or without specialist treatment under the care of a Hearing Therapist or Audiologist. However, many people make good improvement within 6 months. It is for this reason I do not recommend anyone to start TRT or CBT until they have had tinnitus for at least 6 months sometimes longer. My post: when should TRT be started, explains in more detail: https://www.tinnitustalk.com/threads/what-is-trt-and-when-should-it-be-started.19024/

Avoiding normal everyday sounds or overusing hearing protection to the point where the loudness threshold of the auditory system is at risk of being reduced isn't a good idea. This can cause many problems that I mention in the following links: https://www.tinnitustalk.com/threads/hyperacusis-as-i-see-it.19174/
https://www.tinnitustalk.com/threads/the-complexities-of-tinnitus-and-hyperacusis.25733/

Michael

You're welcome and thank you.

My focus was really just on the physical aspects of environmental noise. Especially as it's heavy on the low frequencies from traffic etc, which we sense to be much softer despite the fact that they carry a lot of sound pressure. And whether they take a toll on our hearing in the long run, even when they don't cause any problems (in hyperacusis sense).

 

[Michael Leigh]

I hate the foam plugs. I can't figure out how to properly fit them. Believe me I have tried.

I have some ear muffs. I guess I could use those.
It's hard to say what spikes my tinnitus.
I have a lot of anxiety and that can do it. My tinnitus is also very variable.

HI @TracyJS

I have many years experience with tinnitus and have had two severe noise traumas. The first took 2 years to recover and the 2nd 4 years. I wouldn't tell you anything that is wrong regarding habituating to tinnitus in the safest possible way and treating hyperacusis. There are others in this forum that share my views. I am not "reckless" but know the harm that overprotecting ears can do. There are some people in this forum that are newbies, giving advice to other newbies, which will only teach them to remain newbies.

Take care
Michael

 

[Michael Leigh]

My focus was really just on the physical aspects of environmental noise. Especially as it's heavy on the low frequencies from traffic etc, which we sense to be much softer despite the fact that they carry a lot of sound pressure. And whether they take a toll on our hearing in the long run, even when they don't cause any problems (in hyperacusis sense).

I understand what you're saying and where you are coming from. When you habituate to tinnitus and your hyperacusis if it is present, has reduced or cured. The concerns that you have about sounds in the environment will not matter I assure you.

All the best
Michael