Protecting? Overprotecting? Not Protecting?

[Bill Bauer]

At the point I stopped protecting from everyday noises the Tinnitus almost vanished completely.

Who said that one should be protecting against the everyday noises? What kind of noises are we talking about? You provided your body the conditions it needed to heal, and eventually you were well enough to be exposed to the noises that used to cause problems for you.

 

[RichL]

Also, could you please answer just One of my comments - the one I am going to quote below:

Answered in full on the post before and again below!

No, not at all, because if I hadn't sensitized my ears through over use of ear plugs, a simple popping of a can wouldn't have even been an issue!

That will be my final post here, have a good one!

Rich

 

[Bill Bauer]

No, not at all, because if I hadn't sensitized my ears through over use of ear plugs, a simple popping of a can wouldn't have even been an issue!

If a can popping wasn't bothering when your T was brand new, then you shouldn't have been protecting against that kind of a sound.

have a good one!

You too.

 

[Greg Sacramento]

I asked a sound engineer, a neighbor whom I've mentioned before about this topic at hand. He said ones need to refer to the CDC - Center for Disease Control Prevention studies of 2011 & 2012. He also discussed the positives and negatives of wearing ear protection. He wasn't in favor of ear plugs. False security, widening of ear canals and pushing ear wax deeper into the canal was mentioned. He also noted that overuse of protection can lower the auditory threshold. He prefers ear muffs over noise blocking headphones and so does the CDC studies. Noise blocking headphones can cause compression force to those with physical tinnitus and that can certainly become a health disadvantage also mentioned in the CDC studies and elsewhere. Ear muffs are better because they are lighter. For those with heart conditions noise protection is needed.

He said if you have tinnitus and hearing loss one needs ear protection around loud noise. A spike may not happen the next day, but a year or two later one may pay the price.

This topic can depress those with tinnitus, so a simple calming solution may be the use of ear muffs when needed.

https://www.noisyplanet.nidcd.nih.gov/

 

[Jack Straw]

I asked a sound engineer, a neighbor whom I've mentioned before about this topic at hand. He said ones need to refer to the CDC - Center for Disease Control Prevention studies of 2011 & 2012. He also discussed the positives and negatives of wearing ear protection. He wasn't in favor of ear plugs. False security, widening of ear canals and pushing ear wax deeper into the canal was mentioned. He also noted that overuse of protection can lower the auditory threshold. He prefers ear muffs over noise blocking headphones and so does the CDC studies. Noise blocking headphones can cause compression force to those with physical tinnitus and that can certainly become a health disadvantage also mentioned in the CDC studies and elsewhere. Ear muffs are better because they are lighter. For those with heart conditions noise protection is needed.

He said if you have tinnitus and hearing loss one needs ear protection around loud noise. A spike may not happen the next day, but a year or two later one may pay the price.

This topic can depress those with tinnitus, so a simple calming solution may be the use of ear muffs when needed.

https://www.noisyplanet.nidcd.nih.gov/

What does your friend consider loud noises? Is he talking about the OSHA standards? "Loud noises" is subjective and doesn't really help this discuss too much. He could mean OSHA 8 hours at 80 dB or he could be talking about an impulse noise at 80 dB.

Edit: Upon looking at the link you provided it follows the OSHA standards of 85 for 8 hours. With this conclusion, unless anyone is riding motor cycles or going to concerts, there is no need to protect against everyday sounds because it is very unlikely to exceed 8 hours at 80 dB for an average person.

Is this what your suggesting because this is what some people consider "under protecting".

I'm sorry if I am coming off as hostile this discussion regarding this is just annoying me at this point. since everyone keeps running around in circles.

 

[Bill Bauer]

To those considering the "more reasonable approach" of going to all events that you would like to attend, and using earplugs when feel that the noise is too much: It might take years, but you might live to regret it.

Over the years my tinnitus has worsened. New sounds have joined me and I'm getting to a breaking point. Ringing. The sound of an EEE flat line. I worked my life around ear plugs at clubs and stuffing them in when there was noise that I felt was too much. Both ears are now ringing in some tone. The other hiss I had my whole life has an over powering ringing to it.

 

[Bill Bauer]

ep, he's dead right, if you know anything about anxiety and the power of thought, you wouldn't be arguing this.

The spikes are almost certainly an overreaction within the pathways of the brain and this likely includes memory and fear/emotion.

There goes the theory above:
https://www.tinnitustalk.com/members/jacob-alvarez.28262/#profile-post-14402

My friend played a dog whistle app on his phone and now two days later my ears are ringing and it wont go away
...
No i was not upset and the noise didnt even bother me when he played it

We get this sort of a story almost every day. The experiences are similar - no stress during the event, followed by a spike soon after.

I hope people learn from others' mistakes.

 

[Greg Sacramento]

What Are the Common Problems of Hearing Protectors?

Studies have shown that one-half of the workers wearing hearing protectors receive one-half or less of the noise reduction potential of their protectors because these devices are not worn continuously while in noise or because they do not fit properly. A hearing protector that gives an average of 30 dB of noise reduction if worn continuously during an 8-hour workday becomes equivalent to only 9 dB of protection if taken off for one hour in the noise. This is because decibels are measured on a logarithmic scale, and there is a 10-fold increase in noise energy for each 10 dB increase. During the hour with unprotected ears, the worker is exposed to 1,000 times more sound energy than if earplugs or muffs had been worn.

In addition, noise exposure is cumulative. So the noise at home or at play must be counted in the total exposure during any one day. A maximum allowable while on the job exposure followed by an exposure to noisy lawnmower or loud music will definitely exceed the safe daily limits. Even if earplugs and/or muffs are worn continuously while in noise, they do little good if there is an incomplete air seal between the hearing protector and the skin. When using hearing protectors, you will hear your own voice as louder and deeper. This is a useful sign that the hearing protectors are properly positioned.

Other studies state that hearing protectors can never be totally positioned due to the space between jaw and neck.

https://www.tdi.texas.gov/pubs/videoresource/fsnoise.pdf
http://www.hse.gov.uk/noise/goodpractice/hearingrealworld.htm

 

[Greg Sacramento]

@Jack Straw The Noisy Planet link, I provided because hearing loss fom noise and tinnitus is on the increase for children and teenagers as noted by all health associations including the World Health Association. One of the engineer's views aligns with the quote from the Texas study above. He feels with using protection over a period of time from 30 minutes on, that hearing protection needs to be removed in a quiet environment. He has mentioned situations can be more concerning for those with tinnitus, where his limits are 75-80 decibels and less for vibration noises. He also feels that 4-5 decibels needs to be deducted from the manufacturer's rating as mentioned in the Hearing Real World link above.

My knowledge and research centers around health. Those with heart conditions need to careful around loud noise and the reasons are obvious. Those with jaw/neck/facial tinnitus can get compression that include head bending from heavy and extended headphone use. Compression of nerves, muscles and joints involves over 30 conditions and formations that can associate with tinnitus. Light headphones or ear muffs are better for these individuals.

 

[Jiri]

I find helpful trying to adhere to the Environmental Protection Agency noise dosage recommendation. EPA has adopted the strickest standards in comparison to NIOSH and OSHA.

Source: https://midimagic.sgc-hosting.com/spldose.htm

Hearing protectors aren't all that safe as demonstrated in: Hearing Protector Performance: How They Work - and - What Goes Wrong in the Real World

 

[Drone Draper]

Holy moly, 85db only 45 minutes? I need wear earplugs next time I go to Wagamama.

 

[Greg Sacramento]

@Jiri Quotes from your link.

"The OSHA (Occupational Safety and Health Administration) guidelines for sound exposure say that workers may be exposed to the following levels of sound pressure (SPL) for the following time periods (but only ONE of these levels in any 24 hour period). In addition, hearing protection is required to be available at any level above 85 dB SPL. Many otologists feel that the OSHA guidelines do not provide enough protection."

"Many otologists think the weighting curves should be adjusted to add sounds which are not perceived as loud, but which do cause hearing damage."

My engineering neighbor agrees.

 

[Jiri]

@Greg Sacramento I agree with that statement. OSHA seems to be a bit too optimistic.

This might be helpful too:

 

[Jack Straw]

I find helpful trying to adhere to the Environmental Protection Agency noise dosage recommendation. EPA has adopted the strickest standards in comparison to NIOSH and OSHA.

View attachment 26796​

Source: https://midimagic.sgc-hosting.com/spldose.htm

Hearing protectors aren't all that safe as demonstrated in: Hearing Protector Performance: How They Work - and - What Goes Wrong in the Real World

This scaling seems absurd. So if anyone is exposed to a closing door or plates clanking that hits 100 dB they are causing NIHL for a fraction of a second? Every ear health organization follows the standard OSHA rules or the European rules which start at 80 dB.

 

[Ed209]

LOLOL

Has it occurred to you that it is most likely that the causality is that those who are more likely to get a spike will be the people who will have to have no choice but to "get obsessed with protecting their ears"?

The science suggests that unnecessarily protecting one's ears is a bad practice and can cause further problems. This is why nobody recommends doing it. In fact, experts are very clear about this and warn people not to. There are many stories of people - who when starting to overprotect (do not confuse this with sensible use of protection) - became so dependent that they end up isolating themselves in their homes. Phonophobia can lead to OCD like symptoms where it can become an obsession to protect at all costs. Obviously, this depends on how susceptible one is to this kind of behaviour, but it is common to see individuals getting trapped in their own mind which is why it shouldn't be recommended.

What research are you basing this statement on??

Only a small slice of it:

http://discovermagazine.com/2010/oct/26-ringing-in-the-ears-goes-much-deeper

(I'll post excerpts below each link)

When Schlee compared people who suffer a lot of distress from tinnitus with those who are not much bothered by it, he found that the more distress people felt, the stronger the flow of signals out of the front and back of the brain and into the temporal cortex. This pattern suggests that the network Schlee discovered is important for the full experience of tinnitus. Tinnitus, in other words, extends beyond the ear, beyond a hearing-specialized part of the brain, beyond even any single piece of neural real estate. It is a disease of networks that span the brain.


Clearly the auditory cortex is just an early stop on the journey that sound takes from the outside world to our awareness. Some neurons in the auditory cortex extend branches down to the brain stem, where they link to a pair of regions called the caudate nucleus and putamen. Those regions may be important for processing the signals in several ways, such as categorizing sounds.


Once signals travel from the ear to the auditory cortex, caudate, and putamen, they eventually make their way to regions of the brain that carry out more sophisticated sound information processing: connecting the sounds with memories, interpreting their meaning, giving them emotional significance. It is precisely these regions that Schlee and his colleagues noted were behaving strangely in people with tinnitus. He argues that it is only when signals reach this large-scale network that we become conscious of sounds, and it is only at this stage that tinnitus starts to cause people real torment. Schlee's results suggest that the higher regions of the brain send their own feedback to the auditory cortex, amplifying its false signals. Schlee's model of tinnitus and consciousness could explain some curious observations. Even in bad cases of tinnitus, people can become unaware of the phantom sound if they are distracted. It may be that distractions deprive the errant signals from the auditory cortex of the attention they need to cause real distress. What's more, some of the most effective treatments for tinnitus appear to work by altering the behavior of the front of the brain. Counseling, for example, can make people better aware of the sounds they experience by explaining the brain process that may underlie the disorder, so they can consciously reduce their distress.


https://fullertonhearing.com/2018/02/21/tinnitus-and-emotional-processing-new-study-offers-hope/


Researchers didn't stop there, though. During the second part of the study, the brain activity of those with varying degrees of tinnitus was compared and what researchers found when comparing scans and analyzing participants' initial intake survey responses was surprising. The final report concluded:

"Individuals with lower tinnitus distress may utilize frontal regions to better control their emotional response to affective sounds."

In other words, individuals who reported less effect from their tinnitus during the initial surveys processed emotions more in the frontal lobe, an area less related to emotion and more tied to cognitive skills. Those more affected by their tinnitus continued to process emotions primarily in the amygdala. Researchers also pointed out that their findings suggested, "Physical activity may contribute to lower tinnitus severity and greater engagement of the frontal cortices."


https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5318420/


The "muted" amygdala activation observed in the tinnitus group could reflect an internal modification of emotional response perhaps as a result of successful habituation to emotionally negative sound. This interpretation would predict a heightened amygdala emotional response in individuals with a more clinically bothersome tinnitus.


In support of our first hypothesis we found that the amygdala's response to sound was significantly modulated by emotional valence. That is, compared with neutral sound clips, the amygdala's response to pleasant and unpleasant sound clips was significantly enhanced. This overall "U-shaped" response to pleasantness reflects the same amygdala response pattern found by Irwin et al. (2011) in young adults with normal hearing. Also in agreement with Irwin et al.'s (2011) data, we found no main effect of hemisphere, suggesting a lack of amygdala dominance. However, the distinctive amygdala U-shaped response pattern that has been independently replicated across both studies seems to suggest a genuine neurophysiological difference in amygdala function between sound conditions.


In our exploratory research question which explored whether differential responses could be detected within the three subdivisions of the amygdala, we found that peak activity was most likely to be found in the LB subdivision of the amygdala, and least likely to be found in the CM subdivision of the amygdala. This pattern was consistent across both hemispheres and for both study groups. Within the animal literature, it is well known that the LB nuclei acts as the "gateway" for sensory information to the amygdala, receiving input from both the auditory thalamus and from association areas of the auditory cortex (Bordi and LeDoux, 1992). Support for similar involvement of the LB nuclei when processing emotionally evocative auditory stimuli has been presented in more recent human neuroimaging studies (Ball et al., 2007; Kumar et al., 2012). Kumar et al. (2012) found both the LB and the SF nucleus to encode acoustic features necessary for attributing valence.


https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0896627310009876

Regardless of its origin, we argue that NAc hyperactivity indicates appraisal of the perceptual relevance of the tinnitus sensation (and/or perhaps the aversiveness of TF-matched stimuli), with the ultimate objective of affecting perception. VmPFC also projects to the thalamic reticular nucleus (TRN), including its auditory division (Zikopoulos and Barbas, 2006), which is in a position to inhibit (or modulate) communication between auditory cortex and MGN (Figure 5). Thus, inefficient vmPFC output could prevent inhibition of the tinnitus signal at the MGN. As such, positive correlation between the magnitude of vmPFC anomalies and NAc/mHG activity may indicate some preservation of function: those patients with greater amounts/concentrations of GM in vmPFC exhibit less hyperactivity in NAc and mHG, thus reflecting a relatively greater ability of the vmPFC to exert an inhibitory influence on the auditory system.


https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0067778


The rGCa values in the bilateral thalamus, the bilateral hippocampus, and the left caudate were positively correlated and those in the left medial superior frontal gyrus and the left posterior cingulate gyrus were negatively correlated with tinnitus loudness. These results suggest that distinct brain regions are responsible for tinnitus symptoms. The regions for distress and depressive state are known to be related to depression, while the regions for tinnitus loudness are known to be related to the default mode network and integration of multi-sensory information.


https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4623204/


Beyond abnormal basal ganglia connectivity, chronic tinnitus patients also have abnormal patterns of auditory cortical connectivity. A1 has increased coherence with the PHCG, cerebellum, and orbital pre-frontal cortex, a major hub of the default mode network (DMN; Greicius et al., 2003). While not directly related to the striatal gating model, it is possible that increased connectivity between A1 and subregions of the DMN (as well as CH with the DMN) may be related to introspection in this cohort, a function known to be modulated by the DMN (Fransson, 2005). Previous studies have shown that the strength of regional functional connectivity (global cross-correlations of the BOLD signal) for regions of the DMN are related to the amplitude of auditory phantom percepts (Ueyama et al., 2013), though this relationship between A1 and the DMN is not replicated in the current study.


https://lib.ugent.be/fulltxt/RUG01/002/479/794/RUG01-002479794_2018_0001_AC.pdf


https://cdn.elifesciences.org/articles/06576/elife-06576-v1.pdf

Suppose I am crazy, and want to experience pain every time, say, I see a black cat. I don't think that my brain can cause me to have pain for weeks or months at a time, following this random cue.

This is absolutely false. Strong negative and emotional responses, that can lead to a physiological response, can be triggered by any stimulus. This has even been proven with animal studies. There is a technique known as "anchoring" that specifically exploits this vulnerability. Take someone with PTSD for example, if they were involved a bad car accident, they may never be able to sit in a car again because of the reaction of their brain. A person can develop a fear to anything, and if one strengthens those pathways by reacting each time, then it can easily become a problem. Our thoughts control our endocrine system, so it will feel very real when you have a panic attack.

For some people, all sound becomes a problem, so using protection, 24/7, is not the right advice. Tinnitus is almost like a form of PTSD for some, which is why we are so averse to sound: we relive the trauma.

And yet - they do. Despite not thinking twice about the episode - because they Know that conversations are too quiet to cause any problems. (If they were worried about the conversation, they wouldn't be having it in the first place.) They first become aware that something is wrong the next morning, as they are waking up. And then it lasts for days or weeks or months.

What?

Back then, it was early after your onset. Thanks to that advice you had healed and now you can enjoy fewer spikes despite more exposure to noise.

What healing? My tinnitus is exactly the same. I luckily dag myself out of a huge hole when I realised I was on the wrong path. I dodged a bullet.

 

[Bill Bauer]

The science suggests that unnecessarily protecting one's ears is a bad practice and can cause further problems. This is why nobody recommends doing it. In fact, experts are very clear about this and warn people not to. There are many stories of people - who when starting to overprotect (do not confuse this with sensible use of protection) - became so dependent that they end up isolating themselves in their homes. Phonophobia can lead to OCD like symptoms where it can become an obsession to protect at all costs. Obviously, this depends on how susceptible one is to this kind of behaviour, but it is common to see individuals getting trapped in their own mind which is why it shouldn't be recommended.

I couldn't agree more. But you keep suggesting that this is what I advocate. Please stop using the straw man argument.

Let me repeat:

There is a Russian saying that translates to "Get an unwise person to pray - he will end up splitting the skin on his forehead." This is describing a devout person falling on the ground as he prays

and, his forehead hitting the floor with enough force to result in an injury.

The meaning of the saying is that you might be taught something that is sensible (it is an old saying, so the people who came up with it had a positive attitude about religion), and then overdo it.

This might be helpful too:

If you look at what OSHA allows in the US regarding exposure to noise, it's very difficult to find fault with an employer for noise related injury. As far as I am concerned they allow too much exposure for too long a time and these permitted exposures really need to be adjusted down.

What you are citing is not even true for the healthy people. There has not been any research about what kinds of sounds are safe for people with T.

Only a small slice of it:

http://discovermagazine.com/2010/oct/26-ringing-in-the-ears-goes-much-deeper

This just proves that stress might have an impact on T. Recall that when the sound is moderate, it doesn't occur to the sufferer that it could possibly have an impact on T. So the sufferer is NOT stressed out. I had already talked about it. I guess I need to repeat myself again

https://www.tinnitustalk.com/members/jacob-alvarez.28262/#profile-post-14402

My friend played a dog whistle app on his phone and now two days later my ears are ringing and it wont go away
...
No i was not upset and the noise didnt even bother me when he played it

Strong negative and emotional responses, that can lead to a physiological response, can be triggered by any stimulus.

If you think the scenario below is plausible, it explains your other beliefs:

Suppose I am crazy, and want to experience pain every time, say, I see a black cat. I don't think that my brain can cause me to have pain for weeks or months at a time, following this random cue. Also, many sufferers report getting the spike the next morning. No matter how much I work myself up, my brain is not complex enough to provide me with a pain (in the same part of my body each time) as I wake up the next day. And yet, this is what most of the people who get spikes experience every time they get a spike.

For some people, all sound becomes a problem, so using protection, 24/7, is not the right advice.

Who said that it was?!

What?

You say that when one gets a major spike after participating in a loud conversation, it is due to stress. But what happens is that the person is not aware that sounds like that can harm them. They talk to their friends and are stress-free. The next day (or when they walk out of their friends' home), the hear the spike. So the only relation to such a case that stress has is that it is the only explanation someone who refuses to accept reality will use

"People should not be getting spikes from sounds that are no louder than a person talking"And yet - they do. Despite not thinking twice about the episode - because they Know that conversations are too quiet to cause any problems. (If they were worried about the conversation, they wouldn't be having it in the first place.) They first become aware that something is wrong the next morning, as they are waking up. And then it lasts for days or weeks or months.

 

[Greg Sacramento]

Keyword: Depression.
It would be impossible to place or make sense of all the possible physical and emotional effects of tinnitus into one post or one thread. I won't post inside statistics of mental health counselors, ER units and crisis centers that give care to those that received tinnitus within my area where many are children and teenagers. This will be an one time post because this is scary stuff. I don't like to talk about suicide, but depression is on the forefront among children with hearing loss and receiving tinnitus. We are all caring members, but anything where there's argument, disagreement or depressing body language can confuse them. With this, the subject of noise protection is no different than many other subjects that involves depression.

Fear and depression is not all one of the same. Tinnitus is a neuro disease and hyperacusis is more biological real than a fear aspect. Protection needs should be discussed with medical facts besides that of safe noise levels. Some with physical tinnitus should not be wearing heavy protection gear because it can cause more damage by compression. Light gear is needed. Always take off protection in a quiet environment. Some shouldn't wear protection for lengths of time daily because it might lower auditory threshold. The bottom line is in our ears, one must protect around loud noise and that is 80 decibels regardless of OSHA and others that will obey the power of industry and commerce. That's what needed to be said, protect only around loud noise. For some it may be 70-75 decibels and for others it may be 80-85 decibels.

Many that receive tinnitus will end up in an ER later because something happened that increased their tinnitus. Care givers don't report tests, ear cleaning procedures, inappropriate non safe medications given and dental treatment complications that either causes tinnitus or increases it.

Children and teenagers do get depressed with hearing loss and tinnitus and when they become incapable of trauma defense with tinnitus bad things happen. It's not always told that tinnitus, hearing loss and depression was cause.

 

[Digital Doc]

This continues to be a challenge between balancing overprotection and underprotection to a sensible middle ground.

I want to point out that the OSHA guidelines of hearing protection of 85 db for 8 hours requires hearing protection is for workers and specifically to prevent noise induced hearing loss. This threshold is also too high as it starts lower at 80 db in other parts of the world. This may be due to that there are 16 other hours in the day, with potential for additional noise exposure when not at work.

However, these thresholds are not the same for those who already have NIHL, which can manifest as tinnitus. Plenty of folks here, myself included, will spike, and continue to have their T at lower thresholds of sound than those OSHA recommendations. I have gotten spikes from sounds that are in the 60 and 70 db ranges, and now know to avoid them so this will not happen again.

For them, a sensible solution is that if the sound is bothersome, it is best to avoid it, and protect until this is possible. Wearing hearing protection 24-7, of any sort, is not a good solution with plenty of it's own downsides as already enumerated.

Stress can make the T worse, but does not cause T on it's own. Also, being stress free does not eliminate the T.

 

[Greg Sacramento]

@Digital Doc Excellent

However, these thresholds are not the same for those who already have NIHL, which can manifest as tinnitus. Plenty of folks here, myself included, will spike, and continue to have their T at lower thresholds of sound than those OSHA recommendations. I have gotten spikes from sounds that are in the 60 and 70 db ranges, and now know to avoid them so this will not happen again.

For them, a sensible solution is that if the sound is bothersome, it is best to avoid it, and protect until this is possible. Wearing hearing protection 24-7, of any sort, is not a good solution with plenty of it's own downsides as already enumerated.

 

[RichL]

There goes the theory above:
https://www.tinnitustalk.com/members/jacob-alvarez.28262/#profile-post-14402

I know I said I wouldn't be replying, but your seemingly inability to have a broad spectrum on this subject is quite baffling.

This is how it is.
Everybody is different, every individuals reaction to anything is unique to them, I had a mate with me the day I got this horrible disease, he was fine, didn't even get any fleeting T the night my ears rang for a half hour or so, I was unlucky, or stupid, it's as simple as that.
I knew my ears were already sensitive to louder noises, more so than others!

You have already shown that you don't read others comments properly as asking a question that was clearly covered in my second post will attest to.

Why did you keep the earplugs in when you were at home?

Which was answered in that post that you supposedly read!

I was so paranoid that my T would get worse, it consumed me, so I thought maybe if I tried foam ear plugs I wouldn't be so paranoid about wondering whether any noise had hurt my hearing so to speak and that was the start, my T was not that loud because when I inserted these foam earplugs I felt safe, I could do things that people with normal hearing could do, so I left them in.......24/7, it was fine for the next 10 years, started working, met my future wife, things were pretty good, my hearing and T stayed at the same level.

Fact: Tinnitus researchers have already some time back concluded in numerous studies, that Tinnitus, as well as being a physical ailment has psychological elements to it, as can be determined in the way T increases or diminishes with the mood of the patient, it is the very reason why trials of any new treatment have Placebos.

You've heard of the Placebo effect I take it?

It's widely accepted that the Placebo effect is very real, so stands to reason and has scientific proof that you can will yourself to be sick by excessively worrying about certain illnesses, anxiety causes this same affect, the only difference is anxiety is difficult to control, so someone with excessive worry disorder can worry there Tinnitus to worsen, even if no more damage has been done.

Look no further than our very own Dannyboy, (RIP) for proof that the will to die can sometimes overcome the hope that things can get better and the will to live!

Jacob Alverez did not have T before he blamed a dog whistle for his ringing.
Since you do not understand empirical evidence I will explain...Empirical evidence is information acquired by observation or experimentation, the chances of his T being totally unrelated to his experience with a dog whistle are high, getting T two days after his initial experience with the whistle tells anyone with half a brain that this is unlikely to have been the cause unless he has a dogs hearing range which I highly doubt!

Nobody is advocating not protecting ones ears from a noisy situation, the facts are all of us who now have T are either unlucky, in the case of noise trauma or, made a silly mistake by not protecting our hearing properly, I can guarantee no one has got T, from noise trauma, wearing hearing protection I don't include T sufferers that have this disease from medication, TMJ or mineres disease!

One person claiming to have got T from something never heard of before, like a dog whistle, is not slam dunk evidence for anything as the chances of his T being completely unrelated are extremely high.

@Ed209 has already blinded you with science, so there's little point in me doing the same, this is definitely my last post as I have better things to be doing than arguing with someone who offers one sentence answers and claims a theory being blown out of the water from it.

Rich

 

[Bill Bauer]

You have already shown that you don't read others comments properly as asking a question that was clearly covered in my second post will attest to.

You don't need to worry about my reading comprehension. Your post wasn't showing. When you quoted your own post, I got an error message when I clicked on the "up arrow" on the quote. Today I am able to see it.

Everybody is different, every individuals reaction to anything is unique to them

Who said that it wasn't? The answer is - you did. You were giving everyone the advice to not protect your ears. I was the one telling them to be aware of the danger and to make sure to listen to the signals from their own bodies.

Everyone is different, and yet you and Ed stated it as fact that when someone gets a T spike as a result of exposure to a Moderate noise, the spike Had to have been caused by stress. This, despite most sufferers reporting not being stressed out at the time of the exposure to the mild noise.

Here is another report in an endless series of sad reports that many people here are trying to pretend do not exist. We really do seem to get these reports on a daily basis:

I've had a similar story. Extreme loudness H for 4 weeks, which then improved. However, after a 2hour restaurant visit I had a major setback. Its been 4 months now and no signifcant improvement.

Would you say that you were stressed during that restaurant visit (because you were worried about the noise level there), and that this stress is what had caused your setback?

I had actually had a very good time. I did reflect on the noise level a bit during the 2nd hour. After 1hr I took a break in the bathroom and listened after T changes, but did not feel anything off.

However, after exiting the restaurang on a quiet street after 2hrs I could hear a new tone and realized I had made a mistake.

It was not a particularly noisy restaurant, but there was some noise and some music.

Which one do you believe it was - the stress or the sounds itself?

I stress at work, but no spike. But after a dinner I enjoyed with friends... why would I get the worst setback ever? I had not exposed myself to that much noise for that long period since I came down with severe hyperacusis. Pretty sure its noise.

But who knows? Maybe I'm stressed and don't realize it.

so stands to reason and has scientific proof that you can will yourself to be sick by excessively worrying about certain illnesses

The problem with this reasoning is that none of us (me, the two people I quoted in this thread, and the many people whose posts about this I've read over the past two years) were actually stressed! In all of those cases the noise was mild, and we all thought that it couldn't possibly cause any problems. So we were Not worried about it.

 

[RichL]

Who said that it wasn't? The answer is - you did. You were giving everyone the advice to not protect your ears. I was the one telling them to be aware of the danger and to make sure to listen to the signals from their own bodies.

This is starting to get old and tiresome now, nowhere did I advocate to anyone to "not protect their ears", I clearly stated and used the exact phrase, "Over protecting", you talk about a straw-man argument?....Pot, Kettle....Black, as I said you seemingly lack any clear ability to comprehend what you read!

Who said that it wasn't? The answer is - you did. You were giving everyone the advice to not protect your ears. I was the one telling them to be aware of the danger and to make sure to listen to the signals from their own bodies.

Again ditto to a straw-man argument!

Everyone is different, and yet you and Ed stated it as fact that when someone gets a T spike as a result of exposure to a Moderate noise, the spike Had to have been caused by stress. This, despite most sufferers reporting not being stressed out at the time of the exposure to the mild noise.

Nowhere did I say that a spike "had to of been caused by stress" Honestly WTF is wrong with you?
Stress and anxiety are two different chemical bodily reactions, even though they at times go hand and hand.

Here learn the difference...https://www.psycom.net/stress-vs-anxiety-difference

When someone's tinnitus spikes because of what is termed as a moderate noise, several things are at play.

A. Was the noise at a Db level that would cause damage to any part of the hearing mechanism?

B. Does the Tinnitus sufferer have noise reactive Tinnitus?

If A is in play and the sufferer does not have B, then the only thing that can cause an increase in tinnitus is anxiety, the brain, it is a proven scientific fact that a human can will health problems on themselves, please EDUCATE YOURSELF!

As for the rest of your so called evidence, A series of scared individuals struggling to come to terms as to why this shit has happened and suffering from an ailment that is definitely worse than most physically obvious ones as it is a brain ailment which the severity is definitely dictated by ones state of mind.

The problem with this reasoning is that none of us (me, the two people I quoted in this thread, and the many people whose posts about this I've read over the past two years) were actually stressed! In all of those cases the noise was mild, and we all thought that it couldn't possibly cause any problems. So we were Not worried about it.

And there's the mistake right there, " In all those cases the noise was mild and we all THOUGHT"..

Your first case, the two hour restaurant visit, did either of you realize a study has been done on restaurant ambiance and noise levels?

Hope you like long reads...

https://asa.scitation.org/doi/pdf/10.1121/2.0000674

https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2018/11/how-restaurants-got-so-loud/576715/

A typical restaurant averages 80db, most come in over that, you need ear protection over 80db, so your first instance turns out to be not so innocent!

I'm done here as I can't be bothered with educating someone who doesn't want to be educated, the information is out there, you show your inability to want to learn anything by misquoting and presenting what I call ignorant almost childish forms of evidence in the way of conversations you've had with other ignorant tinnitus sufferers who don't know when hearing needs protecting.
I will refrain from putting you on ignore if you will at least show a willingness to learn and not just argue for the sake of it, or because your looking for some kind of victorious self congratulatory pat on the back, I hope for the former.

Regards Rich

 

[RichL]

What does your friend consider loud noises? Is he talking about the OSHA standards? "Loud noises" is subjective and doesn't really help this discuss too much. He could mean OSHA 8 hours at 80 dB or he could be talking about an impulse noise at 80 dB.

Edit: Upon looking at the link you provided it follows the OSHA standards of 85 for 8 hours. With this conclusion, unless anyone is riding motor cycles or going to concerts, there is no need to protect against everyday sounds because it is very unlikely to exceed 8 hours at 80 dB for an average person.

Is this what your suggesting because this is what some people consider "under protecting".

I'm sorry if I am coming off as hostile this discussion regarding this is just annoying me at this point. since everyone keeps running around in circles.

Totally agree, very annoying!

 

[Bill Bauer]

Upon looking at the link you provided it follows the OSHA standards of 85 for 8 hours. With this conclusion, unless anyone is riding motor cycles or going to concerts, there is no need to protect against everyday sounds because it is very unlikely to exceed 8 hours at 80 dB for an average person.

First of all, the average person doesn't have tinnitus! There hasn't been any research into what sort of noise exposure is safe for T sufferers.

Second of all

The OSHA regulations for noise exposure (i.e. 8 hours at 85db TWA) is hilariously outdated.

The study the standards were based on was looking for permanent threshold shifts in large groups of industrial workers, and if the majority of workers did not see a permanent threshold shift the exposure level was deemed safe. Note, that's for the the majority of workers, some unlucky few still would lose hearing over time in an occupation at that level. Moreover, more recent research has shown that you can have significant hearing damage before ever seeing a permanent threshold shift. Many people with tinnitus and hyperacusis have a normal audiogram.

If you look at what OSHA allows in the US regarding exposure to noise, it's very difficult to find fault with an employer for noise related injury. As far as I am concerned they allow too much exposure for too long a time and these permitted exposures really need to be adjusted down.

 

[Bill Bauer]

your seemingly inability to have a broad spectrum on this subject is quite baffling.

Forget about me, but please reply to

However, these thresholds are not the same for those who already have NIHL, which can manifest as tinnitus. Plenty of folks here, myself included, will spike, and continue to have their T at lower thresholds of sound than those OSHA recommendations. I have gotten spikes from sounds that are in the 60 and 70 db ranges, and now know to avoid them so this will not happen again.

For them, a sensible solution is that if the sound is bothersome, it is best to avoid it, and protect until this is possible. Wearing hearing protection 24-7, of any sort, is not a good solution with plenty of it's own downsides as already enumerated.

Stress can make the T worse, but does not cause T on it's own. Also, being stress free does not eliminate the T.

 

[RichL]

Forget about me, but please reply to

Oh dear!
And this is why you will be ignored, I covered this in one of my previous comments!
Heard of reactive Tinnitus?
Tinnitus that is noise reactive especially to certain frequencies regardless of db level is a special case and again you completely ignored my comment on the differences between anxiety and stress!

There is no hope for you, you really need to educate yourself!
all the best,
Rich

 

[Bill Bauer]

Oh dear!
And this is why you will be ignored, I covered this in one of my previous comments!
Heard of reactive Tinnitus?
Tinnitus that is noise reactive especially to certain frequencies regardless of db level is a special case and again you completely ignored my comment on the differences between anxiety and stress!

There is no hope for you, you really need to educate yourself!
all the best,
Rich

Sorry, I don't know what you are talking about. I searched this forum using keywords "anxiety" and "stress" with you being the author, and I am getting just two posts. I see that none of these posts could be the post that you are referring to.
https://www.tinnitustalk.com/search...=relevance&c[date]=1550131200&c[user][0]=4014

 

[Bill Bauer]

Interesting
https://www.medicalmarijuana.com/me...cannabis-uses/tinnitus-cannabis-gives-relief/

According to the American Tinnitus Association, there are several things you can do to protect yourself from excessive noise related tinnitus:

...

When around any noise that bothers your ears (a concert, sporting event, hunting) wear hearing protection or reduce noise levels.

Even everyday noises, such as blow drying your hair or using a lawnmower, can require protection. Keep earplugs or earmuffs handy for these activities.

 

[Jack Straw]

First of all, the average person doesn't have tinnitus! There hasn't been any research into what sort of noise exposure is safe for T sufferers.

Second of all

The quotes you provided are not back by science literature rather just opinions of forum postsers.

 

[Ed209]

You were giving everyone the advice to not protect your ears. I was the one telling them to be aware of the danger and to make sure to listen to the signals from their own bodies.

Everyone is different, and yet you and Ed stated it as fact that when someone gets a T spike as a result of exposure to a Moderate noise, the spike Had to have been caused by stress. This, despite most sufferers reporting not being stressed out at the time of the exposure to the mild noise.

Where has anyone said not to protect one's ears?

I love how you ask for what research I was basing it on and then skim right past it. You would argue red is blue to try and prove a point. Everyone's tinnitus is certainly unique, we all know that, but your advice causes paranoia and fear towards all sound. This is the key difference. When someone's ears spike because they got into a conversation (whilst wearing earplugs) but we're concerned because they weren't wearing ear muffs, then yes, there is no question that there is involvement from their limbic system. I hear stories like this all the time where the sounds that are causing spikes are completely non-threatening.

You are the perfect training manual for how to induce phonophobia and hyperacusis.

This is just two random examples out of hundreds:

To be honest, I was concerned about the noises when I first detected them but before I found Tinnitus Talk, I was not listening to it all day. I just went to Urgent Care because at times I could detect it.

It wasn't until certain members such as Bill Bauer replied to my post (which was written under an anxious state) with some truly worrying advice that I truly heard the noise as "very loud." Though I understand that they meant well, the next few days it was all I could focus on and I felt withdrawn.

—————————————————————

it's got me overprotecting and concerned about all noises, yeh. it's like I am actually afraid of sound now. When the wife talks to me and she is too close I feel myself wanting to put muffs on or move backwards. everyday normal noises are scary now and I was not like this a year or so ago!

Every time there is a positive discussion around defeating this mental illness (phonophobia/OCD) you always come back and put your big foot in it. I'm staggered at your stupidity as there are people here reading this who are suicidal, and instead of using some common sense you have continued to say all the wrong things.

This is not a petty internet debate when you have extremely vulnerable people reading it. I've advised everyone who's in this position to stop reading this forum and to seek professional help immediately. Enough damage has been caused already. Nobody here is advocating that one shouldn't protect their ears around dangerous noise; we are saying if you find yourself protecting at all hours of the day then you have a problem and you need to seek help. There is a massive difference here that I feel some of you are missing, and if you're not, then what you are doing is indefensible.