Psychopharmaceuticals

[Jiri]

I dedicate this thread to all the tinnitus and/or hyperacusis sufferers receiveing treatment with psychiatric drugs.

There are a large number of people worldwide who are on some type of a psychiatric drug treatment to help them cope better with intrusive tinnitus. Unfortunatelly, some psychiatrists have a lack of knowledge about tinnitus and will irresponsibly prescribe drugs that can be in the long term detrimental to their patients.

Particularly, there is one class of psychiatric drugs I would like to warn everybody about - benzodiazepines. These types of drugs are not meant to be taken long-term. One of the protracted withdrawal symptoms could be tinnitus.

This thread should therefore serve as a platform to share experiences, helpful links; and manuals that would (if needed) help you and your doctor draw up a detailed withdrawal schedule on the basis of principles they set out.

If you are unsure about your medication interactions it is always for the best to ask a clinical pharmacist.

Please, find attached: Icarus Project 'Harm Reduction Guide to Coming Off Psychiatric Drugs' and Dr. Breggin's 'Your Drug May be Your Problem - How and Why to Stop Taking Psychiatric Medications'

Helpful links:

1. https://www.benzo.org.uk/manual/ (Professor Heather Ashton's Manual aka 'The Ashton Manual')
2. http://www.benzobuddies.org/forum/index.php
   
3. http://survivingantidepressants.org/
   
4. http://www.pdr.net/

 

[vermillion]

What about using benzos intermittently. Let's say once or twice a month?

 

[Jiri]

What about using benzos intermittently. Let's say once or twice a month?

That should be ok. Though, benzos aren't over-the-counter drugs so it is down to your doctor to decide.

 

[Sonic17]

It is obvious that loud/excessive noise can lead to hearing loss and therefore Tinnitus, but with benzo's and a/d's the Tinnitus seems to be coming more from the brain. My question is, if they claim these meds can cause Tinnitus, then why can they not figure out a cure for this brain Tinnitus or at least a medication to take away the noise temporarily. If it is understood how a med can cause T, shouldn't a cure be possible? Just thinking out loud.....

 

[Jiri]

My question is, if they claim these meds can cause Tinnitus, then why can they not figure out a cure for this brain Tinnitus or at least a medication to take away the noise temporarily. If it is understood how a med can cause T, shouldn't a cure be possible?

Difficult. I don't think it's fully understood how some meds can cause T. Even some over-the-counter drugs can be t-generating. Nonetheless, it is a toxic injury and as such very difficult to treat.

When it comes to a cure, I asked the Uni of Michigan team, if tinnitus drug-induced patients could also benefit from their device. The simple answer was: 'They haven't tried it on those types of tinnitus so they don't know.'

Check out the link number one 1. in my original post, and see chapter III. You will notice that it's been estimated that 10 - 15% of patients develop a 'post-withdrawal symptom'. One of those is sensory symptom tinnitus. Why? It is not known.

Note: These are long-term benzodiazepine users (https://www.benzo.org.uk/manual/bzcha03.htm).

& we're talking just about benzos. People are often taking other drugs too, which may enhance their effects (Lyrica e.g.)

There are too many variables to consider. The number of medications you're on, for how long you've been taking them, your taper plan, knowledge of the doctor under whose supervision you have put yourself, your genetic predispositions..

This is a good documentary to watch about benzos and their effects on people:

On the other hand, there are plenty of people who have been on psychiatric drugs for years and haven't developed any bad withdrawal symptoms. Plus there is neuroplasticity. Brains do have some capability to recover from damage.

 

[just1morething]

@Jiri, It seems many of the major tinnitus Dr.'s like Abraham Shulman, Dr. Levine, Jack Vernon as well as Kevin Hogan have used benzos in the treatment of tinnitus. They must think the risk/benefit ratio is okay. I did see some benzo withdrawal videos though that look alarming. Hogan claimed Xanax saved his life.

https://www.kevinhogan.com/FAQ.htm

 

[Wolfears]

It is obvious that loud/excessive noise can lead to hearing loss and therefore Tinnitus, but with benzo's and a/d's the Tinnitus seems to be coming more from the brain. My question is, if they claim these meds can cause Tinnitus, then why can they not figure out a cure for this brain Tinnitus or at least a medication to take away the noise temporarily. If it is understood how a med can cause T, shouldn't a cure be possible? Just thinking out loud.....

Yes I always thought that about marijuana...since it will make the T consistently and reliably louder for vast majority of users, logic tells me there also has to be a way to lower the T volume for most sufferers.
All they have to do is study it and then reverse engineer it to create the opposite effect.
Should be fairly simple for the smart scientists who know their stuff.

 

[Sonic17]

All they have to do is study it and then reverse engineer it to create the opposite effect.

That is how I see it. To be able to list a side effect of a med being Tinnitus, they must understand how an alteration in brain chemistry/transmission causes T. This should give them some understanding in developing a medication to cure or at least reduce T.
Wishing.......

 

[Sonic17]

Does anyone know if Ativan is as effective as Xanax? I understand Xanax has a longer half life, but in terms of lowering T is one better then the other?

 

[Jiri]

Stay away from Benzos would be my advice, if in doubt watch the documentary. However, I think the least harmful of them all should be Clonazepam to us. There are actually studies trying to prove its efficacy in treating tinnitus.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22626945
"CONCLUSION: Clonazepam is effective in treating tinnitus; G biloba is ineffective."

Still, Benzos shouldn't be used for more than 2-4 weeks maximum if you take them daily. If you search youtube videos, there are unfortunatelly some very disturbing ones where ppl tried to come off them. Physical side effect: T.

@just1morething Well, if you have severe tinnitus and end up in a psychiatric hospital then they will give you benzos with other psycho drugs to save your life. It's justified.

Then again, Prof. Heather Ashton (Professor of Clinical Psychopharmacology in case anybody was wondering) stated No.: 1. Doctors don't think what they're prescribing, 2. Pushing by the drug companies (it's business), 3. Not enough research. Later on she states that if you mix them with other drugs like antidepressants or painkillers, the additive effect can kill you. It's also sad to hear her say that when medical students go into drug companies they sell their souls.

The guys you named might have used them but the questions to me are: how long was the treatment duration, the risk/benefit ratio is ok only in serious cases, in my opinion. Check this out: https://www.tinnitusformula.com/library/benzodiazepine-withdrawal-syndrome-and-tinnitus/

You're absolutely right about the online benzo withdrawal videos. Absolutely terrible - structural damage to the brain.

Anyway, wish me luck. I'm in my 1st week of Clonazepam and Brintellix/Trintellix withdrawal after being on them for 6 months nonstop. The sad thing is I was meant to be slowly withdrawn from Clonazepam after my first month on it (while I still wasn't physically dependent on it) and instead Pregabalin should've been increased.

 

[just1morething]

@Jiri, Good luck on your slow withdrawal! I see a psychiatrist this coming Tuesday. See what he has to say regarding my tinnitus. Brutal right now. I'm going to try hearing aids again.

I watched this one:

 

[just1morething]

@Jiri, I'm going to try a cervical epidural next Wedneday. I need relief bad. Do you still think your noise could be related to your neck? I had one great day but can't duplicate it.

 

[Jiri]

Good luck on your slow withdrawal! I see a psychiatrist this coming Tuesday.

Thanks, I'll need all the luck. My psychiatrist is now my ex-psychiatrist because of her irresponsible (to say the least) approach - she was directly instructed from the hospital to withdraw me from that tranquilizer and didn't do it.

I'm so sorry to hear your tinnitus is brutal I hope it's just a temporary spike. Yes, I do think the ringing in my left ear is due to my neck injury, and I was also offered the steroid injection. Try it, and please let me know if it worked.

This is what gets me the most, in the beginning it was just 1. a head/neck injury (mild ringing in my left ear), two weeks later 2. acu trauma (bad bad tinnitus) and NOW priorities changed (thanks to that cow) and I have to be focusing on drugs that might have been contributing to my tinnitus not getting any better this whole time but the opposite. Completely avoidable had I not been following terrible medical advice in good faith! Which is now No. 3.

I'm watching the vid - very interesting! If I were you I'd also try that cranial sacral therapy and find a good physio.

 

[kelpiemsp]

There is so much mis information. Benzos are not otoxic. That's why you don't see real research ever talking about it. A few flyers and one professor spouting off about it is hardly hard evidence. We all know that benzo withdrawal makes you stressed and that leads to a spike. But that is the absolute extent of it.

 

[Jiri]

There is so much mis information.

Well, with all due respect, I don't think that Prof. Ashton was spouting. As a matter of fact, I was so desperate at one point that I got in touch with her. I don't want this thread to spread fear but to raise awareness of psych. drugs, their possible adverse effects on us (mainly worsening of t. & h.) and to clarify things. A discussion, not an argument. Facts.

Also, it wasn't just her talking in the documentary but another renowned expert Prof. Malcolm Lader OBE and they both provided evidence to support their claims. I mean they give lectures to medical personell too about the topic.

What about this brochure: http://hlaa-sbc.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/Ototoxic_Brochure.pdf ? Benzos and other psychiatric drugs listed as ototoxic. Also a scam? What about Dr. Breggin and his claims?

Please, do not get me wrong. I would be so so happy if you proved all this to be false and backed up your claims with some solid facts that it's you who's in the clear. It would with no doubt restore hope for better tomorrows fo many of us!

 

[kelpiemsp]

Ashton calls it a side effect not ototoxic. And a DO is not a MD major difference. Also, you are choosing to believe two people vs the entire majority... literally thousands of MDs and PhDs because it is convenient.

 

[Jiri]

Even my ENT said those drugs can initiate tinnitus (he's also Ph.D.). Ok, let's not call it ototoxic (a direct damage to hairs inside cochlea) but neurotoxic d. in brain which can also lead to t.. 'convenient' doesn't disprove what I said earlier.

Two professor's one of whom is a professor of Clinical Psychopharmacology (she can give lectures about benzos to any of those M.D., Ph.D.s at any time she wants).

....still waiting for your evidence-based facts.

 

[just1morething]

Mixing drugs is not good either:

Then there are the other potential life threatening and life altering problems related to benzodiazepine use. How many women are aware that their Ativan is teratogenic and can cause miscarriage and birth defects in the first 8 weeks before they even realize they are pregnant and can get safely off? Studies have shown that long-term benzodiazepine use can also lead to increased infections, car accidents, Alzheimer's, diabetes, cancer, suicide, and the list goes on and on. This is a problem that goes well beyond addiction and it's not exclusive to Xanax.

If there is going to be any hope of reducing the potentially hundreds of thousands of benzodiazepine-related deaths every year then we have to look at the entire class of benzodiazepine drugs just as we do opiates. It would almost seem ridiculous for legislators to put forward a bill to address the "Codeine epidemic". It's every bit as silly to focus all our attention only on Xanax.

When actor Heath Ledger died 2 opiates and 3 benzodiazepines were found in his in his system including Valium (diazepam), Restoril (temazepam) and Xanax (alprazolam). While this may seem excessive, it is not uncommon for people (including many celebrities who have died) to be prescribed multiple different benzodiazepines along with opiates for different problems such as insomnia, pain, and anxiety. Deaths like this are why the FDA recently issued a black box warning against combining opiates and benzodiazepines. But what is being done about the irresponsible and off-label prescribing that continues to flood benzodiazepines into our homes and onto the streets?

 

[kelpiemsp]

Show me a paper in a peer reviewed medical journal that leads a study that shows multiple people have had permanent tinnitus caused by benzo use. Just one. Not temporary.

 

[David Dubros]

I have been using clonazepam daily for 3 months for anxiety and it quiets my T down to silence so i dont buy the "bad benzo " talk.

 

[Jiri]

Interesting. I provided already sources. I was hoping that perhaps this time around you'd be the one trying to show a peer-reviewed paper proving the claims stated here wrong.

After all, it was you saying "There is so much misinformation."

 

[kelpiemsp]

Interesting. I provided already sources. I was hoping that perhaps this time around you'd be the one trying to show a peer-reviewed paper proving the claims stated here wrong.

After all, it was you saying "There is so much misinformation."

None of yours met my qualifications. Interesting.

 

[Greg Sacramento]

@kelpiemsp @Jiri The New England Journal of Medicine gathered some case histories that may support part of both of your thesis. There is concern per quick withdrawal for those with physical muscular and jaw related tinnitus. Withdrawal often does cause muscle spasms of the back and neck where that can cause more stress on joints and nerves, including TMD. Hundreds of reports are noted and referenced to physical tinnitus where tinnitus started or increased from quick withdrawal.

It's never clear and dry when physical tinnitus is present. It's like all the discussion on noise protection. Those with physical muscular tinnitus should be more concerned with loud noise because the facial nerve, accessory nerve, cranial nerves - VII and X are more active.

The New England Journal of Medicine has a study where withdrawal can cause hyperacusis for about one in five.

 

[just1morething]

@Jiri, Great awareness thread! It made me realize all the CNS depressants I'm taking and how dangerous it can be. I think we all feel better with less drugs in our system.

 

[bob bauer]

I have been on Ativan for 13 years, also Temazepam. Currently trying to taper off Mirtazapine and after I take the meds at night my ears explode, I can't sleep and it's frighteningly loud. I'm about ready to end my life, this is agony.

 

[Nanny chocolate]

Don't despair Bob. I'm sorry you are suffering with this horrible tinnitus condition. Mine is painfully loud today for no obvious reason.
Thinking of you.
Eve
@bob bauer

 

[Jiri]

Great awareness thread! It made me realize all the CNS depressants I'm taking and how dangerous it can be. I think we all feel better with less drugs in our system.

Thanks! That was my point, psychiatrists here are handing out benzos and antds. like M&M's candies + in my experience they don't care like good psychotherapists do. "Oh, you have problem? Here, take this. It'll help(wink,wink)"

Short term use, sure. Intermittently to overcome a tough time, help you fall asleep from time to time when the noise is just too much. Ok, understood. These drugs do have a place in the world. It's the long-term use that could make things far worse and I'm not talking just about t.&h. now (the case of Prozac and Eli Lilly). They say suicide, I say murder.

+ physicall dependence, being unable to come off them when you want to (can't do 'cold turkey') possible protracted post-withdrawal symptoms one of which is actually worsening of the condition(s) u took 'em for in the 1st place? Yea

None of yours met my qualifications.

And who are you, sir, that your qualifications should matter, hm? You're an anonymous user on an internet forum that could be claiming absolutely anything vs renowned world experts on the topic. Suffice it to say.

The burden of proof lies on the person in a disagreement to produce the evidence that will prove the claims they have made against the other party. So still waiting for your evidence-based facts.

 

[Jiri]

I have been on Ativan for 13 years, also Temazepam. Currently trying to taper off Mirtazapine and after I take the meds at night my ears explode, I can't sleep and it's frighteningly loud. I'm about ready to end my life, this is agony.

If you are serious, then please don't do it, Bob. Seriously, you need all the help and support. Check out the Research News on this forum. There are some very promising studies that I believe will bring us relieve. Better days are ahead.

 

[kelpiemsp]

Thanks! That was my point, psychiatrists here are handing out benzos and antds. like M&M's candies + in my experience they don't care like good psychotherapists do. "Oh, you have problem? Here, take this. It'll help(wink,wink)"

Short term use, sure. Intermittently to overcome a tough time, help you fall asleep from time to time when the noise is just too much. Ok, understood. These drugs do have a place in the world. It's the long-term use that could make things far worse and I'm not talking just about t.&h. now (the case of Prozac and Eli Lilly). They say suicide, I say murder.

+ physicall dependence, being unable to come off them when you want to (can't do 'cold turkey') possible protracted post-withdrawal symptoms one of which is actually worsening of the condition(s) u took 'em for in the 1st place? Yea


And who are you, sir, that your qualifications should matter, hm? You're an anonymous user on an internet forum that could be claiming absolutely anything vs renowned world experts on the topic. Suffice it to say.

The burden of proof lies on the person in a disagreement to produce the evidence that will prove the claims they have made against the other party. So still waiting for your evidence-based facts.

Touche. However, you're grossly misusing their own words and just because someone is famous in the world of people struggling with benzo addiction hardly makes them world renown. More like internet renowned, in a small group of people that happen to not agree with the 99 percent of other medical professionals.

As for myself, I am anonymous to you, but not all on this forum. I think our ideas should be based on merit, not qualifications. However, PM me and I will gladly show you my qualifications. But to simplify matters, this is my job. I am a research scientist. I work in cancer, but eh, reading a study is pretty much the same across fields.

I am not saying I know more than Dr. Ashton, but I am saying you are grossly misrepresenting her work.

Also, I think you are confused. You need to prove something exists (i.e. that permanent Tinnitus is caused by benzo use or withdrawal) before I can disprove it. It's how science works. Are you familiar with hypothesis testing?

 

[Jiri]

Look here, say whatever you will. I grew tired of this now, sorry. First off, it's you calling her "spouting off hardly an evidence", ok? Then you want me to prove smth when it's clearly your job to disprove what was stated here by me, her or whoever and provide evidence-based facts in support to your claims. Now it's you again saying that "I am grossly misrepresenting her work". Lol, really? I read her whole manual, then I contacted her (with questions obviously) and got a reply back saying that "I am rightfully concerned" along with other things which I won't go into too much detail bec it was a private mail. I watched the videos with her and merely repeated/highlighted what she herself said in the videos. Btw, it's funny how you're now regarding her as "Dr. Ashton" too. I was trying to be respectful. This time I'm just tired of all the anties who always have to contribute their misinformed views where they aren't needed.

If tinnitus didn't send me to me knees back in Nov. 2017 I'd have been a research scientist myself by now too at a reputable uni. Take it, or leave it. Don't care. This is what I was doing the whole time myself, gathering data, analysing and then drawing conclusions. Using both qualitative and quantitative methods in languages that weren't even mine.

If you work as a cancer r. scientist then that's awesome and I hope you do great. I also wish you the best of luck in participation with the U o Minessota study.

Bye.