South Korean Clinic Treatment (Dr. Minbo Shim)

[bill 112]

All i know @snow86 told me he decided to end up himself last month i dare not to write him, as i got into severe pains last 4 days, new tinnitus level... terible.. anyway snow has really bad noise and sounds all over spectrum after RTMS

Man I really feel Snows pain,I'm probably in the very same situation he found himself him.

Unbearable excruciating T and H that leaves me zoned out from the pain all day everyday,if it wasn't for my family I'd be dead that I can guarantee you but sadly I have to keep on trying to have a life and just torturing myself as a result.

I really do hope Snow is doing ok and is alive and well.

 

[lolkas]

Maybe 80% is a reasonable prerequisite if they are going through extra work to get you to be allowed to stay in country with with visa.

I wonder how airbnb works with this kind of stuff.

I checked and surprisingly you can get decent appartments for like $60/day in that city

 

[GregCA]

Yeah the laser treatment I don't understand. So it's literally impossible to get medicine to the inner ear because of so many obstacles...yet light hits it no problem :-/

It's not impossible at all. It's done routinely with trans tympanic injections, in particular with steroids.
There is one obstacle yes, the ear drum, and then one has to be careful about the delicate structures in the middle ear, but it's far from "impossible".
Light has an advantage that it can penetrate structures that aren't completely opaque or reflective, which makes it much less intrusive, since we don't have to "poke things".

 

[Artemis2K]

I checked and surprisingly you can get decent appartments for like $60/day in that city

I mean with getting visas. Surely they can help better than the clinic. The visa would have to last for at least 4 days depending on the plan. It's not realistic to go in, get treated, and then leave, at least that's how I see it.

 

[lolkas]

I mean with getting visas. Surely they can help better than the clinic. The visa would have to last for at least 4 days depending on the plan. It's not realistic to go in, get treated, and then leave, at least that's how I see it.

I have russian passport and for me it is easy to stay 60 days in 1 visit. fot US citizens its 90 days stay, no visa. i can do either or, but US seems to be better in my case.

 

[Artemis2K]

I have russian passport and for me it is easy to stay 60 days in 1 visit. fot US citizens its 90 days stay, no visa. i can do either or, but US seems to be better in my case.

So I wouldn't need a Visa if I thought about that treatment? Even if I wanted to stay for 15 days to get two?

 

[lolkas]

So I wouldn't need a Visa if I thought about that treatment? Even if I wanted to stay for 15 days to get two?

US citizen ? then u just need your passport, can stay up to 90 days in single trip if im correct

 

[Artemis2K]

I guess next thing to do is ask for him to provide authentication. That is, give links to websites that prove he is a respected ENT, stem cell and growth factor expert, etc. Though I have started to believe him, I would like to have as much concrete proof as possible, such as government recognition, or more media reports about him. More digital footprints.

It's hard doing background checks without knowing Korean.

 

[jdjd09]

So, I am unable to concentrate honestly enough to read through this entire thread? Are people saying they believe they found someone who is able to cure hearing loss with stem cells? How can one contact him? Is this very credible? Sorry, I'm just very stressed and would love to know what hope there is out there.

 

[Artemis2K]

So, I am unable to concentrate honestly enough to read through this entire thread? Are people saying they believe they found someone who is able to cure hearing loss with stem cells? How can one contact him? Is this very credible? Sorry, I'm just very stressed and would love to know what hope there is out there.

It's a maybe. He is a rather public person and truly has visited Stanford at Heller's lab. What we know is that he exists, visited Stanford, and exposed himself a lot to where I personally am starting to be skeptical of the possibility of him being a scam artist. He has offered me a great deal in email, even with that yearly October month long "sales festa" thing of 50% off for all foreigners. He said that due to me being young and with near-normal hearing I should have no problem with results and offered to do both ears no additional cost.

I don't believe a scam artist would offer such a deal. It just doesn't make sense to me. If I was a scam artist I wouldn't be as generous. I also don't believe a scam artist would be as public to where he basically had a target on his back saying "Look at me, I am a frauding load of bullcrap and should be in jail". If he is a scam artist, he is probably on thin ice. I am pretty sure he is a real ENT, and ENTs do make a lot of money, so I don't think fraud would be worth losing his reputation and job. It would not make sense to me, to risk your comfortable job over unnecessary and fraudulent bullcrap.

So, to fully answer your question: this is an interesting circumstance and a possibility of truth, but there is no completely solid evidence of genuineness.

 

[lolkas]

So, I am unable to concentrate honestly enough to read through this entire thread? Are people saying they believe they found someone who is able to cure hearing loss with stem cells? How can one contact him? Is this very credible? Sorry, I'm just very stressed and would love to know what hope there is out there.

Hey, well it is hard to say how well it works, but it seem to work. Results vary based on patient, however we don`t know what makes success/progress of particular patient better or worse. Doctor at that clinic seems not to be just a regular doctor, but scientist as well and as result of his work was able to find a way to regenerate hearing. Again, scale of how efficient is varying on "case-by-case" and is different from everyone. Some people get results from 1 shot (injections), some require 5 injections to get same result. So far this is as much as we know in terms of efficiency of this treatment.

Clinic by itself seems to be legit as far as that goes, looks like people are visiting it for other issues primarily (hearing regeneration is very new).

 

[Artemis2K]

Hey, well it is hard to say how well it works, but it seem to work. Results vary based on patient, however we don`t know what makes success/progress of particular patient better or worse. Doctor at that clinic seems not to be just a regular doctor, but scientist as well and as result of his work was able to find a way to regenerate hearing. Again, scale of how efficient is varying on "case-by-case" and is different from everyone. Some people get results from 1 shot (injections), some require 5 injections to get same result. So far this is as much as we know in terms of efficiency of this treatment.

Clinic by itself seems to be legit as far as that goes, looks like people are visiting it for other issues primarily (hearing regeneration is very new).

I kind of wish that my idea of hearing research organizations sponsored people to visit happened now lol.

I still haven't gotten an answer on whether or not he regenerated haircells along with the surrounding nerves. Got the impression he did the latter, but not former.

 

[gotyoubynuts]

Food for thought!

If the clinic / doctor was legit:

Why doesn't he publish his findings in RESPECTED peer reviewed medical journals?

Why isn't he world news?

Is he like Dr Wilden... claims LLLT cures hearing loss and tinnitus!

Our misery drives us to believe the most unlikely things!

 

[Artemis2K]

Speaking of which, maybe it would be a benefit if others started emailing the Hearing Health Foundation about the guy, with all the information you have about them. It would encourage them to investigate deeper, and maybe hire someone knows Korean, specifically a Korean, to investigate. If someone from there looked into it as well, we would have more concrete data.

 

[gotyoubynuts]

Speaking of which, maybe it would be a benefit if others started emailing the Hearing Health Foundation about the guy, with all the information you have about them. It would encourage them to investigate deeper, and maybe hire someone knows Korean, specifically a Korean, to investigate. If someone from there looked into it as well, we would have more concrete data.

There must be someone here who speaks Korean!

 

[Artemis2K]

Food for thought!

If the clinic / doctor was legit:

Why doesn't he publish his findings in RESPECTED peer reviewed medical journals?

Why isn't he world news?

Is he like Dr Wilden... claims LLLT cures hearing loss and tinnitus!

Our misery drives us to believe the most unlikely things!

Unless you actually have solid information, you know just as much as the rest of us. Don't be so cynical. I'm cautiously optimistic, amd am starting to believe him, but I am not going to say this is fact until there is solid proof. I also don't want to deny everything as that is equally as bad as believing everything.

We are all going through some forms of torment. The possibility of good news is uplifting.

 

[gotyoubynuts]

Unless you actually have solid information, you know just as much as the rest of us. Don't be so cynical. I'm cautiously optimistic, amd am starting to believe him, but I am not going to say this is fact until there is solid proof. I also don't want to deny everything as that is equally as bad as believing everything.

We are all going through some forms of torment. The possibility of good news is uplifting.

It is very dangerous to lean on the side of trusting without solid proof.

Always err on the side of caution.

 

[Artemis2K]

It is very dangerous to lean on the side of trusting without solid proof.

Always err on the side of caution.

Being cautious is great. However, there is such a thing as being too cautious and too cynical.

 

[Kane Moffat]

@gotyoubynuts , TT or yourself could hire a translater from Upwork they would be pretty cheap and could translate what was needed.

 

[wags]

Well, nt-3 is a growth factor, I think. At least that's what I got from Wikipedia. Americans have had some good results with nt-3 in related to ribbon synapse.

Hey @Artemis2K

I'm currently connecting some dots here, and have done some reading about this technique that Dr. Sham is proposing. It looks to be based on some research published in 2015 by Dr. Kujawa and Dr. Liberman of Massachusetts Eye and Ear. In a paper titled "Synaptopathy in the noise-exposed and aging cochlea: Primary neural degeneration in acquired sensorineural hearing loss", Dr. Kujawa and Dr. Liberman go on to explain the details of a phenomenon called "hidden hearing loss" and come to the following conclusion:

Thus, there is reason to believe that, in humans, round-window delivery of neurotrophins in a slow-release gel, as well as possible systemic delivery of a neurotrophin agonist, could rescue the synaptopathic phenotype, if delivered within some yet unknown therapeutic window before the degeneration of the SGN had proceeded too far along its path.

Basically what he is looking to have happen is the auditory nerve fibers under your inner hair cells that have been damaged due to trauma would reattach themselves and begin to function again (start sending signals from the inner hair cell to the spiral ganglion). In addition, the paper does mention NT-3 as well as BDNF, as you were speculating.

Dr. Sham could very well be someone using the theory presented in this paper in the real world, outside of U.S. regulatory guidelines. I wonder if it would be worth emailing Dr. Liberman and getting his input?

Paper here: http://www.metroatlantaotolaryngology.org/journal/may15/liberman.pdf

 

[Kane Moffat]

I think you're right @wags . this could just be exactly the same kind of treatment we are expecting to get in the west in 10 years but it's just not regulated and probably less refined.

Still though i think the treatment could be legitimate.

 

[Aaron123]

This is just speculation, but I think that's related to things like nt-3 and bdnf. I haven't asked.

According to this earlier post https://www.tinnitustalk.com/threads/inner-ear-hair-cell-regeneration-—-maybe-we-can-know-more.3131/page-70#post-217077 the "growth factors" are derived from blood or bone marrow. Assuming this information is correct, he is not using NT-3 or BDNF.

In addition, the paper does mention NT-3 as well as BDNF, as you were speculating.

The speculation is almost certainly incorrect.

I wonder if it would be worth emailing Professor Liberman and getting his input?

No. Work by Liberman and others shows that you need almost complete denervation of the auditory nerve to raise thresholds to the levels described in the audiograms on the web page. That level of HL is almost certainly due to hair cell loss.

 

[Artemis2K]

Hey @Artemis2K

I'm currently connecting some dots here, and have done some reading about this technique that Dr. Sham is proposing. It looks to be based on some research published in 2015 by Dr. Kujawa and Dr. Liberman of Massachusetts Eye and Ear. In a paper titled "Synaptopathy in the noise-exposed and aging cochlea: Primary neural degeneration in acquired sensorineural hearing loss", Dr. Kujawa and Dr. Liberman go on to explain the details of a phenomenon called "hidden hearing loss" and come to the following conclusion:


Basically what he is looking to have happen is the auditory nerve fibers under your inner hair cells that have been damaged due to trauma would reattach themselves and begin to function again (start sending signals from the inner hair cell to the spiral ganglion). In addition, the paper does mention NT-3 as well as BDNF, as you were speculating.

Dr. Sham could very well be someone using the theory presented in this paper in the real world, outside of U.S. regulatory guidelines. I wonder if it would be worth emailing Dr. Liberman and getting his input?

Paper here: http://www.metroatlantaotolaryngology.org/journal/may15/liberman.pdf

Lol, it's Dr. Shim. Or are you just being funny, calling him a sham? xD

Yes, I am aware of that paper. It was widely talked about previously. I just don't understand how Dr. Shim could have restored like 30 dB in the profoundly deaf in some cases. I'm trying to figure that out.

 

[wags]

That level of HL is almost certainly due to hair cell loss.

I just don't understand how Dr. Shim could have restored like 30 dB in the profoundly deaf in some cases. I'm trying to figure that out.

I think this is the red flag. Correct me if I'm wrong @Aaron123 but I do not believe growth factors alone would promote the actual regeneration of inner/outer hair cells, it only has been shown to restore the ANF of the hair cells themselves?

Lol, it's Dr. Shim. Or are you just being funny, calling him a sham? xD

That was an honest typo,

 

[Artemis2K]

According to this earlier post https://www.tinnitustalk.com/threads/inner-ear-hair-cell-regeneration-—-maybe-we-can-know-more.3131/page-70#post-217077 the "growth factors" are derived from blood or bone marrow. Assuming this information is correct, he is not using NT-3 or BDNF.


The speculation is almost certainly incorrect.


No. Work by Liberman and others shows that you need almost complete denervation of the auditory nerve to raise thresholds to the levels described in the audiograms on the web page. That level of HL is almost certainly due to hair cell loss.

Doesn't say much, but it does show that bdnf is connected to bloodstream in a distant way. http://www.forbes.com/sites/daviddisalvo/2013/10/13/how-exercise-makes-your-brain-grow/#7cdd6fe648c1

I guess a lot of us could be exercising more lol.

 

[Artemis2K]

I think this is the red flag. Correct me if I'm wrong @Aaron123 but I do not believe growth factors alone would promote the actual regeneration of inner/outer hair cells, it only has been shown to restore the ANF of the hair cells themselves?


That was an honest typo,

Problem is, if he was showing results that were insignificant, that would be a red flag and we wouldn't be talking about it. His sites have given varieties of results for different types of people.

 

[lolkas]

I still kinda think he is mixig these growth factors with something, possibly nt-3 and/or bdnf but dont take my word on that. Hey, if that is enough to promote regeneration of nerve fibers and etc to restore hearing but maybe growth factors alone are not as good as if they would be really mixed with nt-3/bdnf ?

He is either mixing but not sharing his findings since its not a streamline procedure yet, or growth factors alone are enough to promote regeneration, however by itself it is not as alefficient as if would be mixed with other thongs and possiboy that is why efficiency of this treatment is not consistent? i.e. some people get same result with one injection where others need two to achieve same progress.

 

[Aaron123]

it only has been shown to restore the ANF of the hair cells themselves?

The "N" stands for neurotrophic or neorotrophin so the effect is on nerves.

There is some evidence that NT-3 can be helpful, but I believe the treatment was almost immediately after trauma (and was in mice/rats/etc).

 

[wags]

There is some evidence that NT-3 can be helpful, but I believe the treatment was almost immediately after trauma (and was in mice/rats/etc).

ANF refers to the auditory nerve fiber, the fiber on the base of the inner hair cell that connects to the spiral ganglion:

The paper in question hypothesizes that the window with which NT-3 regeneration has to happen is before the spiral ganglion nerves have deteriorated to the point of where they no longer would receive the signal from their respective nerve fibers after they have been regenerated.

Basically, the principal still stands though, NT-3 restores the auditory nerve fibers, not the inner hair cells.

 

[Artemis2K]

I believe this to be relevant. Sounds like this could be what he is using. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3213779/