Spike After Cinema

[Darbiter]

A few days ago I saw The Force Awakens at my local multiplex. I thought I'd be fine if I brought my musician's earplugs which reduce the noise level by ~20db. As anyone who's seen the movie knows, however, it's bloody loud and my T has noticeably increased since.
Part of me says since I was wearing protection the noise probably didn't do any damage, and I could just be worrying and checking on my T more. But action movies are really loud so I was wondering, what are people's opinions regarding whether or not you can damage your hearing at the movies even when using protection?

 

[Charlie396]

Oh man, this topic is what I was afraid of

 

[Andersson]

Never had a problems with cinemas.
I use simple 20dB plugs when I feel it's to loud. Some movies I skip them when it's ok like comedy.

Cinemas can be loud but not so much to do permanent damage. Never hear anyone with T that got that way personally. With protection I see no reason to stress over it.

 

[Ed209]

I just started a thread before I saw this, my post should be merged as a reply here.

 

[Ed209]

A few days ago I saw The Force Awakens at my local multiplex. I thought I'd be fine if I brought my musician's earplugs which reduce the noise level by ~20db. As anyone who's seen the movie knows, however, it's bloody loud and my T has noticeably increased since.
Part of me says since I was wearing protection the noise probably didn't do any damage, and I could just be worrying and checking on my T more. But action movies are really loud so I was wondering, what are people's opinions regarding whether or not you can damage your hearing at the movies even when using protection?

Ok I'm not a Dr but I feel I have a ton of experience in this situation to give advice. I will say almost without doubt that your spike has absolutely nothing to do with the film, especially if you were wearing 20db plugs. In my opinion 20db for a cinema is overdoing it anyway, and I'd say either the earplugs themselves have caused the spike or you overthinking that the film has caused damage has created the spike.

Bare in mind if you use ear plugs too strong for the situation you're in it can be just as bad as you are only making your head noise louder, which means your brain will pay a lot of attention to it. When you take the plugs out your brain will still be focusing on the noise at the new louder level, and if you're stressing about it then it's like a feedback loop making it even louder.

I'll give you an example of what stress can do. The very first band practise I went back to - which psychologically was a huge deal at the time - seemed to cause a spike afterwards cause I was stressing about it. I wore my ACS 26db filters and the sound level sounded fine, the problem was my massively overthinking brain convincing me I should get out the room (a lot of this caused by reading too many forums). Low and behold I had a spike that came after the practise and the following day. At the next practise I took a proper decibel meter instead of using my phone, I found that the reading on my phone was 12db over, I found with a proper meter our sessions were hitting around 96db which meant I was hearing around 70db.

The funny thing is once I knew I was definitely safe I never had another band rehearsal spike, im absolutely certain the previous spike was my own stress levels at being back in a practise room combined with reading too many internet stories.

Live your lives, I swear the best thing is to not stop doing what you used to and stop reading forums so much. My life hit rock bottom and has taken a huge turn since I stopped moping and making excuses not to go to parties and band rehearsals etc. With ear plugs I'm safe and my T is now in the background, I just stopped giving a shit about it.

All the people that say this in other threads are absolutely right, the day T stops being your main priority is the day you'll start living again. At the same time you'll realise it starts to drift into background, you just won't care about it.

 

[LeQuack]

It think the movies rarely go above 100dB, here is an article saying:
"Researchers investigated the sound level of some recent movies. At a showing of 'Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets' they found an average sound level of 74 dB. A peak was registered at 93 dB during the battle with the snake.

'The Lord of the Rings, The Two Towers' was even noisier, with an average noise level of 78 dB and a peak of 95 dB. But more alarming is that the movie lasts a little over 3 hours, and that the sound level is above 80 dB for 29% of the time."

Source:
http://www.hear-it.org/hearing-loss-coming-to-a-theatre-near-you-1

So with 20dB ear plugs the noise shouldn't exceed 80dB at max, usually below that. So noise wise you should be fine, I don't see how you could get damage from that. I would say it's mostly stress.

 

[Zimichael]

As is common with threads like this there are some "variables" that get left out...

One is, whether you have any form of SRT = "sound reactive Tinnitus". If you do, don't follow the advice of those with "normal Tinnitus". Bone up on what's going on or you could end up in a lot worse shape for a lot of your life. It's not worth it. And yeah, those who have looked at my Profile and my posts over the years know that I know what I'm talking about. Fortunately though, SRT is pretty rare compared to "normal T".

Movies...Well before my T & H ver. 3.o in 2012 I went to a movie finally with the dance group I was in. It was not an action movie but was a smallish theater and bloody loud! Fortunately I had my best plugs (around 32 db protection) and used them and could still hear it just fine. So, that implies it was loud!

Now dig this quote form top post on Google search: "Decibel levels in movies?"

http://kxan.com/2014/02/14/testing-movie-theater-volume-too-loud/

"Certain types of high-spectacle movies, such as Transformers, have decibel levels of 90 for almost the entire movie and have decibel levels of 120 for significant periods and at some points get to 130 decibels. Now 130 decibels is a jet engine at about 10 meters," says Dr. Bedolla.

Then you have the standard stuff like...

1. 
   Noise levels are measured in decibels, or dB for short. The higher the decibel level, the louder the noise. Sounds that are louder than 85 dB can cause permanent hearing loss. The hearing system can be injured not only by a loud blast or explosion but also by prolonged exposure to high noise levels.
   Noise - American Speech-Language-Hearing Association

And...
http://www.dangerousdecibels.org/education/information-center/decibel-exposure-time-guidelines/

Then to give this some perspective, I finally got a decibel meter from Amazon a few weeks ago. Very accurate and has settings to register max and min dB levels within a set time frame, etc. I took it into Safeway this morning as had asked the manager to turn the bloody PA system down when the robot voice said: "Deli Department 2-0-0-1" or whatever. It was loud even with my Etymotic 25's in. Well they had it way lower and I only got around 82 decibels off it though I was in so early the place was near empty. Maybe it goes up when more people noising the place up???

Next was my local Organic Foods Coop. Again I go in early to avoid the free range hippie kids screeching around the place, and general buzz - it's a busy place. The checkouts are often incredibly loud. Now I had a meter in my hand and it was one of the quieter ladies I went to (there are six aisles). Plus it was only somewhat busy. The meter hit 87 decibles without a blink...and I know it was a helluva lot quieter in there than usual.

No no one can tell me the average movie I saw many years ago was not as loud as that! Movies were much louder!

And don't forget the easy one to forget...TIME EXPOSURE, TIME EXPOSURE, TIME EXPOSURE...Not just volume level.

It's your life - once you have had T you have some choices about whether maybe you want more of it later.

Best, Zimichael

 

[glynis]

I go on ok at the Cinima and loved going to see James Bond and was loud and use my plugs.
My tinnitus is not noise related ..
If you do find Cinimas a problem I would get it on DVD a few months later and make a night of it with popcorn etc...lots of love glynis

 

[Ed209]

"Certain types of high-spectacle movies, such as Transformers, have decibel levels of 90 for almost the entire movie and have decibel levels of 120 for significant periods and at some points get to 130 decibels. Now 130 decibels is a jet engine at about 10 meters," says Dr. Bedolla.

Unless cinemas are significantly louder outside the U.K. I struggle to see how a film could ever reach 130db. I think some people forget the decibel scale is logarithmic, which means every 3db is a doubling in power which equates to a perceived double in volume around every 6db.

90db is very loud, to reach 93db you need to double the power output. 130db is ridiculously loud. If a cinema played a film that peaked any where near that you'd clear the room. Pain begins at around 120db. Possibly the loudest sustained volume you can be exposed to in my opinion would be a rock gig, which would be around the 115db level.

 

[Andersson]

Don't know what cinemas reach 130dB. No one I ever went to came close to that lol.

Here that would not be legal for one.
And if some cinema in us reached 130dB I doubt that would be legal either.

Transformers was nowhere near that level here

 

[Darbiter]

I did omit the fact that I discretely looked at my iphone db meter during the film. Highest "fast" reading was 97dba, I'm guessing a peak reading would've been much higher though

 

[Ed209]

I did omit the fact that I discretely looked at my iphone db meter during the film. Highest "fast" reading was 97dba, I'm guessing a peak reading would've been much higher though

Non of the iPhone meters are calibrated. The ones I used ran around 12db over the real measurement compared to a calibrated decibel meter.

Your 97db reading was probably in the vicinity of 85db.

I think people on these boards generally underestimate just how loud something has to be just to hit above 90 and stay there for any sustained time. 90 is nightclub territory; it would be very loud for a film to average in the 90s. I've only measured one film on a proper meter and that was Star Wars on Sunday and the highest peaks I got during the loud parts at the start were 83db. The rest was between 60 and 76 on average. I put the meter away after I measured the trailers and what I perceived as the loud parts in the film. I never got it above 83db, I was sitting in the middle of the room.

I'm a movie buff and have seen possibly more films at the cinema then anyone on this board, and the volume of the film to me seemed on a par with any other action film I've seen. This would suggest as an educated guess that 90db is probably the upper limit at an average cinema if the film has some serious loud parts.

I'll take some more measurements when I see a film in a smaller room and see what I get then.

 

[linearb]

90db is very loud, to reach 93db you need to double the power output. 130db is ridiculously loud. If a cinema played a film that peaked any where near that you'd clear the room. Pain begins at around 120db. Possibly the loudest sustained volume you can be exposed to in my opinion would be a rock gig, which would be around the 115db level.

This made me curious what the loudest concerts ever get under any circumstances is, and lol:

Leftfield

How loud must a group be to bring the roof down? For British electronica excessives Leftfield, the answer was an excruciating 137 dB in June 1996 at South London's Brixton Academy, where chunks of plaster and dust began raining on their dance-crazed audience.

wow.
http://www.gibson.com/News-Lifestyle/Features/en-us/10-Loudest-Rock-Bands.aspx

 

[Blujay]

But action movies are really loud so I was wondering, what are people's opinions regarding whether or not you can damage your hearing at the movies even when using protection?

I would never make a blanket statement that it's safe to attend the movies, even with earplugs. There are way too many variables, the most important being a viewer's degree of prior hearing damage.

Each and every time you set foot in a theater, you're on your own.

I was at the theater yesterday, and the bass from the theater "next door" was shaking the "concrete" floor in our theater. There's is a point where decibel levels are academic and meaningless. When concrete is vibrating, that's too loud, and it's irresponsible to advise someone with auditory damage that they'll be fine in the theater as long as they wear earplugs. That's like telling your arthritic grandmother that it's okay to play pro football as long as she wears knee pads.

Zimichael, that was an excellent article you posted on the ridiculous (and totally unnecessary) movie theater volumes. For some reason, movie makers think that an on-screen explosion should be as loud as a real one, and that like the fictional characters, theater patrons should be deafened by the blast.

 

[Ed209]

I would never make a blanket statement that it's safe to attend the movies, even with earplugs. There are way too many variables, the most important being a viewer's degree of prior hearing damage.

I think statements like these are what hold people back and make T so crippling. There is not a shred of evidence that shows the cinema is bad for your ears, quite the contrary, I'd say there's more evidence that suggests they are not. That is unless there are cinemas in the world that I don't know about that really do peak at 130db.

With ear plugs I'd say you are completely and utterly fine at the cinema. Even without them I'd say you're still ok, but better to be safe if in any doubt.

The problem I have is that everyday life is as loud as the cinema, so if you start going down that path you'd wear earplugs 24/7 which is totally unnecessary and will probably cause you sensitivity issues. It's generally not a good idea to reduce your external sound input too much when it's not needed as you only increase your brains attention to your T.

 

[Ed209]

I'd just add as a general rule that it's too loud when you can no longer hear people speaking from a metre or so away. If you need to talk directly into someone's ear to be heard then it's dangerously loud. A cinema does not fit this criteria at all, we generally whisper so as to not interrupt viewing for others, if it was too loud we would be shouting and still not be heard.

 

[Blujay]

There is not a shred of evidence that shows the cinema is bad for your ears, quite the contrary, I'd say there's more evidence that suggests they are not.

Ed209:

Please type "Movies too loud" into your Google search window, and have a look at the news articles.

Also, please provide the evidence you speak of that suggests movies are not harmful to the ears.

 

[Andersson]

Ed209:

Please type "Movies too loud" into your Google search window, and have a look at the news articles.

Also, please provide the evidence you speak of that suggests movies are not harmful to the ears.

Well, there are plenty of Cinemas that never peak above 90dB, and stay below 80dB.
At least here where I live.

So yeah, not harmful, unless you have some really severe condition.

Sure there are some cinemas that go above the recommended/law and blast it, but the cinemas here follow the same standard in max sound. And then there are smaller scale cinemas that don't have regulations they follow I guess.

And yes you can never know, thats why you should bring plugs if you go to a totally new cinema you never been before, check how the sound is. If its to loud even with plugs, well then leave and go to another Cinema with normal sound levels

I never been to a Cinema that reached high dB levels, but I know like IMAX can be louder for example, never been to a IMAX cinema myself though.

 

[Ed209]

"Noise measurements were made in cinemas during the showing of four films, to establish whether the noise levels from films might pose a risk of damage to hearing. The L Aeq levels for the full playing time of each film were all below 80 dB(A). Noise levels did sometimes exceed 90 dB(A) but this was never for more than a total of two minutes, and was usually for only a few seconds. Repeat L Aeq levels for the same films were shown to vary by 3-4 dB across different cinemas. Based on this limited sample of films and cinemas, there is no evidence that sound levels in cinemas cause permanent damage to hearing."


How to cite this URL:
Ferguson MA, Davis AC, Lovell EA. Cinemas - do they pose a risk to hearing?. Noise Health [serial online] 2000 [cited 2015 Dec 23];2:55-8. Available from: http://www.noiseandhealth.org/text.asp?2000/2/8/55/31751

I don't think it helps to google things like "movies too loud" because you are going to find negative things without a doubt. It's like typing in "cycling is dangerous", "driving is dangerous", "which foods give you cancer". There is a lot of information out there about everything and anything. The problem is how you use that information because if you take things at face value you'd never do anything ever again. In fact you may as well just live in a padded cell.

The fact of the matter is cinemas run at around 70db-80db average, (in the uk) with occasional peaks that last a few seconds that can go up to 90db. With 10db ear plugs as a precaution you are totally safe. I'd say arguably without ear plugs you are safe, they are just not that loud. IMAX is a different story I've yet to use a meter in there so can't comment.

One thing I will say is don't trust what you read, buy a decibel meter and check the levels for yourselves. All I will say is catching a train/using the subway, HGV driving, doing long car journeys, restaurants, everyday sounds like lawnmowers being used (even if it's not you), shopping malls etc etc, the list is huge. They all run the same decibel figures as an average film, if you live your life worrying you will never do anything, and there is no need at these levels to stick ear plugs in all the time.

The danger levels have always been the real noisy environments such as work which requires muffs, concerts, band rehearsals, loud bars and clubs etc. These definitely without a doubt cause damage because they run well above 90db and well into the 100s.

I've never come out of a movie with ringing ears and I've never heard of people directly relating the onset of T to a visit to the cinema.

I'm not saying there's not a chance it can happen, I just think people go overboard in forums which definitely doesn't help psychologically. I think this is a HUGE problem for people, especially when T onset is new. People read all this doom and gloom and think they'll never leave the house again because they'll damage their ears. It's this kind of thinking that seriously holds people back.

 

[Zimichael]

I think statements like these are what hold people back and make T so crippling. There is not a shred of evidence that shows the cinema is bad for your ears, quite the contrary, I'd say there's more evidence that suggests they are not. That is unless there are cinemas in the world that I don't know about that really do peak at 130db.

1. I did not make that quote, it was in the top search item article in Google c/o Dr. Bedolla.

2. I'm not trying to "hold anybody back", I'm just adding an often "forgotten" element here on TT that there is variation in what kinds of T people have and the consequences thereof. Often...actually too often, people assume "their kind of T is therefore the same as everyone else's"...Wrong!

3. Last time I was in my local movie theater (before my T/H ver. 3.0) on a few times a year basis, I can assure you that the floors and walls shook from the "loud action movies" in the theater rooms either side of the movie I was in. There is no way that those were only marginally more dB's than what I was getting at the checkout stand of my local foods Coop yesterday (87 db's) - with a good meter, not an iPhone.

4. Generally I shut up about all this stuff as get tired of the repetition, and ignorance of SRT (sound-reactive Tinnitus), yet right there on the Support page when I happened to skim through it yesterday (which again, I seldom do any more) there were two very clear new threads...to me...of people reporting and experiencing "Sound-Reactive-Tinnitus" - and in short, not realizing it and thus playing with fire!
It almost physically hurts me to read it, like it does watching road-workers in Bangkok using jackhammers sounding like huge caliber machine guns with zero hearing protection. And yeah with my fingers in my ears I was close enough to check for plugs = none. No OSHA there!

5. I greatly miss the fact that I can't get anywhere close to going, even with plugs in and over-head Bose NC's, to the latest Star Wars movie. I don't know how old you are, but the first Star Wars movie, and "2001 - A Space Odyssey" ten years before, were seminal and integral parts of my less 'damaged' late youth. I would give a lot to be able to continue that long visual journey at a big screen...but cannot.
I hope with a warning or two, to allow some others to not fall into that loss by being aware of sound aspects that I was not...as had no TT Forum to educate me.

Yes of course, live life, like I did...but once you have had T I suggest "paying attention" even if it goes down and you adapt to it, like mostly it does.

Zimichael

 

[Zimichael]

I'm not saying there's not a chance it can happen, I just think people go overboard in forums which definitely doesn't help psychologically. I think this is a HUGE problem for people, especially when T onset is new. People read all this doom and gloom and think they'll never leave the house again because they'll damage their ears. It's this kind of thinking that seriously holds people back.

This is why I don't post much any more. This from someone who has had T for five months.

Oh well...everyone here is free to chose their own information sources and lives they want to lead.

 

[Ed209]

Sorry Zimichael, I'm not trying to be argumentative here but I just don't take random facts from anywhere at face value, no matter who has quoted it. I prefer to use my own judgement, and real life measurements, and I can say without any doubts that no films in the UK will ever hit peaks of 130, it's just an insane volume. It's around 4 times louder than an average rock concert.

 

[Ed209]

This is why I don't post much any more. This from someone who has had T for five months.

Oh well...everyone here is free to chose their own information sources and lives they want to lead.

Not sure if you're saying you've had T for 5 months or if you're referring to me. I've had T for well over 10 years, I had a major spike 5 months ago. My T is most likely from being a musician.

 

[Zimichael]

@Ed209 ... The UK is a civilized country (I lived there for many years and visited often). The USA is not in the same category. Even my brother (lives in Las Vegas) says he now walks out of movies due to them hurting his ears.
I think it varies all over the map re volume levels for same movies here, as there are indeed "industry standards", but they are not enforced really...Too big a country to cover where the problem is not taken seriously at all. Though the VA is beginning to wake up to "noise exposure", purely because it is costing them so bloody much!!!

In the end, it's up to everyone to be their own "monitor", however, it is kinda sad to see how many new people hit this forum on a daily basis with the classic: "I just got ringing in my ears that won't go away and I'm totally freaked out!" And some are repeats...Those are the folks I am mainly targeting for a little "heads up" in particular. "Once bitten twice shy" tends to get forgotten by our bodies and minds. It's natural, but can be devastating...I'm proof of that - and no, I am not trying to "scare" anyone with that statement. Just pure and simple fact.

Best, Zimichael

P.S. Sorry, just saw your "5 months" comment. All I can go by is what people say in their Profiles or side bars...and your Profile is pretty bare. Well, if you got a spike 5 months ago, I suggest you may somewhat fall into the category of people who I am exactly attempting to address. Be careful, would be my simple suggestion.

 

[Ed209]

Like I said Zimichael, non of us can use blanket statements about the whole world, which is why I'm telling people to use their own judgement. If you're unsure take a decibel meter into the cinema you use most and check the levels personally. I've been to cinemas in the US and non I visited were above 90db. I didn't have a meter with me but I know from being a musician how loud things roughly are. I'd say they were around the same level as the UK cinemas.

Vegas might be a different story like you say.

 

[Telis]

It all depends on your ears, I would not recommend pushing it if your ears hurt. I could sit through a movie in pain and maybe or maybe not come out with permanant damage, to me this seems like a stupid risk. I'm good watching movies at home, what's the big deal.

 

[Blujay]

Ed209 wrote:
"I don't think it helps to google things like "movies too loud" because you are going to find negative things without a doubt."
----

I wasn't trying to find "negative" things. I was trying to show why I wouldn't make blanket statements about the safety of volume in theaters.

There are huge variances in volume among both theaters and movies. And your citing a positive study of a mere four movies, unfortunately, sounds more like you are trying to win a debate rather than be cautious toward the readers here (which include many people with extremely serious hearing problems and damage to their auditory systems).

Your speedy response to my post also tells me that you aren't very interested in taking the time to read the news articles I suggested, which outline the complaints, problems, and pending law regarding movie volumes.

I wanted to show that many movies and theaters have become so loud that it is a now a mainstream issue, even for those with normal hearing.

If the mainstream public is complaining that movies are way too loud, then it's Russian roulette for the people here. It's simply not a good idea to imply on this forum that movies in general are safe.

 

[Ed209]

@Blujay

I couldn't care less about winning a debate, that doesn't even enter my head. In all my messages I clearly recommend precaution with the use of ear plugs and then state my personal belief that the cinemas I use are not dangerous. People need to use their own judgement, that study I put up is only because you asked me.

By far the biggest problem with T is overthinking and stressing about everything that's out there. In other words living in fear of it getting worse. You will NEVER move on if it owns you is all I'm saying.

When I read stuff saying films hit 130db, it's outrageous and it touches a nerve with me, because that's the kind of stuff I'd have read when I was at rock bottom and it would make me feel 10 times worse. It only takes common sense to know when something is dangerously loud, not these stupid internet scare studies that cover all sorts of things nowadays.

If in doubt just take your own meter with you and you'll see that the average will be between 70db-80db. Something playing consistently at 75db is a lot louder than you might think; to the untrained ear you could easily become overwhelmed by sounds around that level thinking they are over 90db, just by all the stuff that gets written online. It's going too far the other way and making people phonophobic in situations that are ok and normal.

You can't go around with ear plugs in 24/7. I'm simply saying use some common sense, of course a cinema can potentially go dangerously loud, any room with speakers can which is why I take ear plugs with me any time I'm in an environment with a sound system.

The last thing I'll add - which is not a dig in anyway - is that most the people who are overly cautious are the ones that seem to post the most on the forums, giving too much of their attention to T. The ones who post less are more likely to get back to normal in my opinion, the less time thinking and worrying about T the better. It's the only way to stop prioritising it. I've only come back with my update to help others as I've found that I've improved MASSIVELY by not looking at T online anymore and stressing about all kinds of everyday sounds.

I hit rock bottom because I was overwhelmed by online scare stories. I feel better because I figured all this stuff about avoiding everything is a bunch of shit, you just need to wear ear plugs when things get loud, not all the time like some would have you believe. Before you know it T is just an afterthought even though it's no different.

 

[Andersson]

I am starting to really understand why 99% of T population stay away from forums
Even those with moderate to severe T.

 

[Ed209]

@Andersson

My T is intrusive so everything I say is not said lightly believe me. I just think some people go too far online and from a pyschological point of view it can make people feel worse. It will certainly slow your recovery down because you will stay in what I call "high alert mode". Just be sensible and stop thinking about it. Easier said than done to begin with but a huge step forward is to limit your forum use if you're of a certain personality type.