Still Go Clubbing or to Bars or Go Rave at Music Festivals?

[Tinker Bell]

She wouldn't. However, it would seem that the most loud noise (that one is exposed to for a long time) will be the culprit. Chances are that the loudest noise she will be exposed to for the longest time will happen at that festival.

Tinnitus is not only caused by noise exposure, and Sandra does not even exactly know what caused her tinnitus. So again, whose to say it would be the concert versus something else.

She didn't take precautions - she went to the festival. Wearing earplugs is like a drunk person drinking coffee to stay awake as he or she drives home. I am saying that drinking and driving is reckless, and you are saying that it is not nice for me to say that it is essentially the drunk driver's fault if he or she becomes disabled as a result of a crash.

No. Just no. That is a very poor analogy. Ear plugs offer protection against loud noises. Coffee does not protect against the effects of intoxication.

The more accurate analogy would be a person exhausted after a long shift drinking coffee to try to stay awake, yet falling asleep while driving home. That actually happened to my aunt, and yes I think it would be pretty horrible to blame her for her death.

The point is that this threshold appears to be lower for T sufferers.

That is an assumption we're making on this forum. I've yet to have an ENT or audiologist tell me that is true. Nor any of the people I know with 20+ years of tinnitus.

So if you were to get diabetes you would not let it dictate what you can and cannot eat?

You do realize diabetics can have sugar. They have to monitor their glucose levels. Sometimes it's safe, and sometimes it is not. They take precautions. They know what is safe and when it is safe. So not that unlike tinnitus in that we need to monitor our sound environment and take precautions when necessary.

The discrepancy is in what we think is safe. If you think earplugs and earmuffs do not protect against sound, that's a different discussion.

 

[Bill Bauer]

That is an assumption we're making on this forum.

It is not an assumption if there are numerous example to support it. One example of it happening to someone invalidates the assumption that our threshold is the same as that of healthy people.

You broke me. I don't have the energy to argue with you anymore. I feel like Sisyphus.

 

[eldudebro]

If it destroys your ears then probably not worth it.

There is always a risk with any activity. Can't live a life on what ifs. Sure, there is a chance I could go to a rock concert tomorrow and worsen my tinnitus even despite ear protection.

I personally feel comfortable doing so. That is my choice and if it were to worsen then that'll be my burden to carry.

 

[Julien87]

It is not an assumption if there are numerous example to support it. One example of it happening to someone invalidates the assumption that our threshold is the same as that of healthy people.

You broke me. I don't have the energy to argue with you anymore. I feel like Sisyphus.

You can have numerous examples about everything, that does not define the trend and does not make the rule. Having the whole picture is what matters.

 

[quietatnight]

Your just asking for trouble, that you really don't want trust me. Stay clear of those kinds of places.


Quietatnight

 

[Bill Bauer]

You can have numerous examples about everything, that does not define the trend and does not make the rule. Having the whole picture is what matters.

To some of us, any significant (1% or greater) risk of making our T permanently worse is unacceptable. As we had established yesterday, the evidence on this website implies that the risk is certainly 1% or greater. So the big picture is if you think that 1% is not an acceptable risk, then you shouldn't attend loud events.

 

[Julien87]

The evidence on this website, you are thinking about your poll? Are you serious?

 

[Tinker Bell]

It is not an assumption if there are numerous example to support it. One example of it happening to someone invalidates the assumption that our threshold is the same as that of healthy people.

You broke me. I don't have the energy to argue with you anymore. I feel like Sisyphus.

Numerous examples on a forum that attracts members dealing with anxiety. Are there numerous examples beyond this forum? If there are, I'd have to think there would be an obvious trend observable by ENTs, audiologists and doctors. And overall data would not suggest that tinnitus and the perception of tinnitus gets better over time.

Sisyphus? You know he was rolling that rock as punishment for being deceitful. I absolutely do NOT this you are being deceitful, but I think TT's polls are not the most accurate measure of many things due to member bias.

I really do like the outside data you share on this forum. It's a great contribution to TT. Much of it is encouraging and positive, which goes the opposite of many of the small polls on TT. I think there's a reason for that and we should keep that in mind.

 

[Mario martz]

Btw I think it's pretty interesting this statement:
"I find it an interesting debate on whether people with noise induced tinnitus especially should take the risk and expose themselves to further loud sound."

So what about us...the people who got tinnitus because of Fibromyalgia, Lyme, Meniere's, Labyrinthitis, MS, etc etc...
Is there someone out there who has a comment on this?

because there are many different people with acoustic trauma who have damage in the higher frequencies... the other cases has damage in the low frequencies... can we talk about this?

 

[maltese]

Pax, pax, pax.

Guys, no one will convince anyone here, so I suggest that... we all give up.

We all have opinions, we all have to make decisions and live with their consequences.


I hope we all make only the best decisions.

 

[Bill Bauer]

Numerous examples on a forum that attracts members dealing with anxiety. Are there numerous examples beyond this forum?

Like I said earlier, if you are reading this forum, you are part of the subpopulation for whom the information on this forum is relevant.

If there are, I'd have to think there would be an obvious trend observable by ENTs, audiologists and doctors.

People go to their ENTs early after the onset of their T. They learn that ENT can't help them. As a result, people will normally not go to their ENT when they experience a spike. This is how ENTs might end up not being aware of any of these trends.

think TT's polls are not the most accurate measure of many things due to member bias.

The information in these polls might not be useful for an ENT who must treat the general population of T sufferers. However, if you have a profile on this forum, then the information in the polls are relevant for YOU, as you ARE part of the population that responded to the poll.

Ok, now I definitely done arguing, at least for today. In this argument, the victory goes to Friendship!

 

[attheedgeofscience]

That is an assumption we're making on this forum. I've yet to have an ENT or audiologist tell me that is true.

If you are still at the stage where you think that your average "ENT" or "audiologist" down-the-block is your best resource for up-to-date information (including knowledge and correlations of auditory insults vs. pure-tone audiograms), then you have a steep learning curve in front of you. Within the clinical field (as opposed to the research field), there is much outdated knowledge on how the inner ear behaves after an auditory insult. However, the following paper...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2812055

...examines both the direct and delayed effects of an auditory insult with reversible threshold shifts (as opposed to permanent threshold shifts). What is seen is that:

1. The hearing threshold shifts return to normal ("obviously" since this was the premise of the investigation).
2. There is delayed damage taking place within the cochlea (specifically cells in the SGN and synaptic connections between hair cells and nerve fibres; not the inner hair cells, themselves). This delayed damage can linger on for weeks and months.

#2 above was seen in a situation where the temporary threshold shift was assumed to be benign (vs. OSHA guidelines for noise exposure). The conclusion to the paper is that noise exposure is likely to be more dangerous than we might think. Indeed, for those who do not have access to the paper, below a snippet of the section covering the conclusion:

The paper does not really cover repeat noise exposure situations but given the nature of how an auditory insult behaves (and increased danger due to delayed effects), it is evident that recurring noise exposure is hazardous. And don't just take my word for it:

Source: https://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/12/01/when-everyday-noise-is-unbearable

 

[Tinker Bell]

If you are still at the stage where you think that your average "ENT" or "audiologist" down-the-block is your best resource for up-to-date information (including knowledge and correlations of auditory insults vs. pure-tone audiograms), then you have a steep learning curve in front of you. Within the clinical field (as opposed to the research field), there is much outdated knowledge on how the inner ear behaves after an auditory insult. However, the following paper...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2812055

...examines both the direct and delayed effects of an auditory insult with reversible threshold shifts (as opposed to permanent threshold shifts). What is seen is that:

1. The hearing threshold shifts return to normal ("obviously" since this was the premise of the investigation).
2. There is delayed damage taking place within the cochlea (specifically cells in the SGN and synaptic connections between hair cells and nerve fibres; not the inner hair cells, themselves). This delayed damage can linger on for weeks and months.

#2 above was seen in a situation where the temporary threshold shift was assumed to be benign (vs. OSHA guidelines for noise exposure). The conclusion to the paper is that noise exposure is likely to be more dangerous than we might think. Indeed, for those who do not have access to the paper, below a snippet of the section covering the conclusion:

View attachment 13489

The paper does not really cover repeat noise exposure situations but given the nature of how an auditory insult behaves (and increased danger due to delayed effects), it is evident that recurring noise exposure is hazardous. And don't just take my word for it:

View attachment 13490

Source: https://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/12/01/when-everyday-noise-is-unbearable

Actually, I've seen three ENTs at leading teaching/research medical facilities. Far from average but all three encouraged follow up for additional concerns and said patients with hearing loss and tinnitus need to protect against the same sound levels as everyone else. They also thought it was important to test my hearing several times, to look out for any additional charges. After several months from the initial hearing loss, they felt it had stabilized and would no longer decline. Which kind of goes along with the study suggesting hearing loss can take time to appear.

The study used 100 dB for two hours on its test subjects. Obviously that could cause hearing damage for even healthy ears. It also only examined a one time incident of exposure, so it does not really explain if damaged ears are more susceptible to damage from lower sounds. They did expose their test subjects to 80dB after the initial trauma, so they must not think that volume further caused damage or their conclusion would have been different.

The blog and some of the quotes reference hyperacusis, and really that's a whole different ballgame than tinnitus alone.

 

[Tinker Bell]

Ok, now I definitely done arguing, at least for today. In this argument, the victory goes to Friendship!

I agree!

And a public service announcement for everyone: if your tinnitus gets worse, notify your ENT or audiologist. Contact a research hospital if you're not satisfied with your doctor. Do what you can to make the medical community aware. They might not be able to help you, but if there's a trend -- it helps for doctors to be aware.

 

[Fangen]

But you go to movie theaters, correct? I think some members think movie theaters are too loud. It's difficult because "loud" is such a subjective term. It's difficult to gauge. It would be easier if we used decibel levels as a guide (i.e. loud is events 85 decibels) but that's difficult because we do not all have decibel meters.

I do but I know the theaters in my country have a hard regulation on the loudness so it never really gets louder than 75-80 db. I don't go to IMAX for that reason. I got T from a concert and the loudness is def a BIG difference. It is for sure much worse.
Going to a cinema with plugs and being in a noisy restaurant is almost equally loud?

 

[TuneOut]

You can have numerous examples about everything, that does not define the trend and does not make the rule. Having the whole picture is what matters.

I'm more concerned with that 8% of people that NIOSH estimates will still develop hearing loss despite following their "scientific" guidelines for noise exposure. If you and Lars Ulrich can handle a concert without problems then go have a blast, so to speak. I'm only going to give advice that I know will protect *everyone* here.

 

[Julien87]

I'm more concerned with that 8% of people that NIOSH estimates will still develop hearing loss despite following their "scientific" guidelines for noise exposure. If you and Lars Ulrich can handle a concert without problems then go have a blast, so to speak. I'm only going to give advice that I know will protect *everyone* here.

What are you on? I always said concerts are a threat for everyone.

 

[TuneOut]

What are you on? I always said concerts are a threat for everyone.

I'm on Nardil. And I take Ambien at night. Thanks for asking.

 

[Julien87]

Should try another mix, that messes up your brain circuitry

 

[Tinker Bell]

I do but I know the theaters in my country have a hard regulation on the loudness so it never really gets louder than 75-80 db. I don't go to IMAX for that reason. I got T from a concert and the loudness is def a BIG difference. It is for sure much worse.
Going to a cinema with plugs and being in a noisy restaurant is almost equally loud?

I wish our theaters were the same! And yes, concerts are definetly much louder than that range. I think there are quite a few things that fall within the 75-80 range like crowded restaurants or being in the car. I went to the grocery store today and the freezer section was within that range. Granted I wasn't there for two hours, but it did take me a long time to pick out ice cream.

 

[JohnnyMx]

I'm just going to give my opinion, based in my own experience.

More than 50% of my problems with T, was not the sound, neither the loudness (even when I can hear it over the sound of the engines inside an airplane)... my biggest problem, the one that was developing into big depression, was thinking my life was over.

That I could not be a normal person again, being unable to attend a kids party with my boys, or taking my boys to the cinema... Once I understood that... yes my situation was bad, and yes tinnitus is bad... I also understood that I was still alive, I should live my life.

Starting to live my life again, helped me to habituate, to get out of depression.

Yes, I go out to loud places (you need to know your limits, for example, I don't feel comfortable in small closed rock venues)... offcourse, I use very good earplugs, take breaks, don't get to close to the speakers... nobrainer things that EVERYONE should do, even those without Tinnitus.

I've never had an increase.

I go to loud restaurants, go to cinemas, go to bars, to parties with my children... and I use earplugs whenever its needed... I do not overprotect my ears, for example, eating at McDonalds (bad hamburguers I know).

My advise:

1) Live your life at its fullest.
2) If you think you would like to attend a loud place, then go, OFFCOURSE WITH EAR PROTECTION (everyone should do this, even those without T.
3) Know your limits... you should detect with something is not good... maybe alot of Bass in the speakers... maybe your earplugs are not working well... Fix the problem.

If go take the path of statistics... I think that I have greater chances of dying in a car accident everyday commuting to work... or getting hit in the street by a car while crossing the path, or dying from influenza, or developing cancer...

ONE MORE THING... a friend of mine, 35 years young, with a Phd, newly married with a beatiful girl... died 10 days ago... in a car accident... statistics are good sometimes... but there are alot of risks outthere... alot more.

Live at your fullest, while you take care of your ears.

Regards,

 

[Bill Bauer]

I've never had an increase.

Doesn't mean that if you keep up with this lifestyle you will not have an increase. Also just because you were lucky, doesn't mean other people who will act recklessly will be as lucky.
Every week there are posts here about people regretting their decision to take that risk. Today's post about this topic is
https://www.tinnitustalk.com/threads/spike-reassurance.23828/

If go take the path of statistics... I think that I have greater chances of dying in a car accident everyday commuting to work... or getting hit in the street by a car while crossing the path, or dying from influenza, or developing cancer...

In
https://www.tinnitustalk.com/thread...-tinnitus-and-regretted-it.23061/#post-269381
I showed that statistics tell us that the chance of getting a permanent spike after adopting a lifestyle that includes loud events is higher than 8.5%, and we can be 90% sure of this figure.

More than 50% of my problems with T, was not the sound

Sounds like your T is not very loud. If you continue with your lifestyle, there is a chance that it will get louder, and then 100% of your problems with T might be related to the sound, as you will be Yearning for your life to be over...

 

[JohnnyMx]

Sounds like your T is not very loud.

I can hear my T inside of an airplane, even in the seats near the turbines... how loud is that? Maybe mild as you say.

Again, I'm not calling for a recklessly behavior, I always promote BIG protection, and taking care of your ears... But I always promote to live your life at its fullest... I think that, telling people you can't go to the cinema anymore, or to bars to have a drink with your friends, does not help people to habituate, to get them out of depression...

Again, I always advise people to know the limits... in my example, I don't go to very loud concerts or venues, but I enjoy a very nice acoustic guitar performance, offcourse, wearing earplugs.

I really understand you, I really, really do. I've been there...

I think that, people with your thinking, and people with my thinking, should work together to define a set of rules and norms, to help people to LIVE THEIR LIFES AT ITS FULLEST, but without risking their ears, keeping their T under control, taking control of their lifes.

Regards!

 

[Bill Bauer]

I can hear my T inside of an airplane, even in the seats near the turbines... how loud is that?

That's very loud. Are you sure this is not the result of all of the noise you haven't protected your ears from?

Also, it can always get louder, and eventually it can be loud enough to get your attention...

I always promote BIG protection

Ear plugs don't Always give enough protection:
https://www.tinnitustalk.com/threads/wearing-foam-ear-plugs-on-a-roller-coaster.22559/#post-259198

I apologize for coming off as a bit aggressive. But I am not sure how else I can convey how I feel about taking risks when it comes to tinnitus...

It seems to me that since you haven't seen any deterioration, there is a high chance that you will be ok. The thing is that for others that chance is lower...