Tinnitus Retraining Therapy

[Ed209]

Also, why can't we still advocate for a cure? TRT isn't a cure, and we deserve one. If you wouldn't apply this to any other condition, why do so to tinnitus?

I agree with you and have stated this numerous times. However, there seems to be a degree of deep-seated apathy within the tinnitus community that has no explanation. Maybe it is because of the way a lot of tinnitus patients are treated by professionals? There is often a complete lack of empathy and compassion as people are brushed aside and made to feel stupid for feeling suicidal about a noise. I've heard some really silly things said by audiologists, but then I suppose it's not entirely their fault. Their knowledge is based upon some outdated ideas, the most notable of which is Jastreboff's neurophysiological model of tinnitus.

I feel that many professionals should be retrained (based solely upon my experience). It's not a nice feeling to go into a consultation feeling that you know more than the supposed expert does. It's demoralising and one can also feel stigmatised by the tone they often use (like what you have is akin to a cold or a headache or something).

I was told to let my daughter scream in my ears (at point-blank range) and not to use earplugs in front of her. I was also told that there was no need for me to use earplugs at a band rehearsal. I could give many examples of the bad information that I was given. All I can say is that I immediately lost respect, and her advice thereafter went over my head as my brain had already switched off.

When my (non-extended) audiogram was perfect I asked her about cochlear synaptopathy and cringed as her eyes glazed over as she was clueless as to what I was talking about. I began to wonder which one of us was supposed to be the expert.

To make matters worse, the first ENT I saw said the opposite. He warned me against continuing to expose my ears to loud guitars as an occupation and told me that it could continue to get worse. It's these contradictions that confuse people.

I am habituated and my tinnitus is very intrusive and loud; there's a cacophony of noise in my head and ears at all times. However, I realise that things can change in the blink of an eye and I could be back in hell in a matter of seconds. I feel like I am dragging a heavy burden around with me and it's like a ticking time-bomb. That's why I'd prefer to see real treatments or a cure, to help those who can't habituate or as a safety net for those who are like myself.

We need more options!

 

[HootOwl]

Michael Leigh x TRT is my OTP.

When is season 2 of the anime coming out.

 

[FGG]

(Even tone). How is that not a placebo? Do you know what a placebo is? The entire point of double blind studies is so that attitude doesn't influence the results. Literally, and I mean literally, the point of science is that something affects your body whether you want it to or not.

Any medical problem that is 90% based on optimism is not a serious medical problem.

Therefore, you are victim blaming. Many people who fail with TRT believed in it and stopped believing in it after it failed.

You are diametrically opposed to helping people. You basically are shilling for a placebo effect and want others to not influence that placebo. Therefore, you are saying these conditions aren't serious. TRT is a cult of confirmation bias and throwing out inconvenient results.

The more I read defenses of TRT, it reminds me of the "Law of Attraction" for ears. Which also is supposed to work if you "believe in it enough".

 

[Michael Leigh]

(Even tone). How is that not a placebo? Do you know what a placebo is? The entire point of double blind studies is so that attitude doesn't influence the results. Literally, and I mean literally, the point of science is that something affects your body whether you want it to or not.

Any medical problem that is 90% based on optimism is not a serious medical problem.

Therefore, you are victim blaming. Many people who fail with TRT believed in it and stopped believing in it after it failed.

You are diametrically opposed to helping people. You basically are shilling for a placebo effect and want others to not influence that placebo. Therefore, you are saying these conditions aren't serious. TRT is a cult of confirmation bias and throwing out inconvenient results.

@Zugzug

I told you before that I visit this forum to help people that are having difficulty coping with tinnitus, particularly noise induced, because that is what I am familiar with. Since you do not have NIT I am unable to help you. I am not here to answer your questions as I find them confrontational. For this reason I ended my last post to you by saying: I hope you get some professional medical treatment.

You will now be placed on ignore for the reasons I have previously explained.
Take care and I wish you well.

Michael

 

[Michael Leigh]

@Michael Leigh I want you to understand some of the things you say really hurt to me and most of us here on this forum who also disagree with your statement.

You are entitled to your opinions and they are noted.
Gooday.

Michael

 

[HootOwl]

Forum member: poses legitimate questions regarding the medical validity and placebo effect of TRT, in an effort to discuss the probability of treatment working for any one individual and reduce the common element of victim-blaming that surrounds older tinnitus treatments.

Michael Leigh: SToP BEinG CoNFrONtATiONal

 

[Star64]

You might think you had TRT but unless your treatment was as I described it wasn't. Therefore, I agree you were scammed. If you did have proper TRT (which I doubt) and you found it to be ineffective which is possible. More than likely, it was your negative thinking towards tinnitus and the belief that no treatment will work, instilled and reinforced in your mind, by the negative people that you associate with. Tinnitus is 90% mental I do not mean it's severity can be controlled by mere thought alone. The condition is intrinsically linked to our mental and emotional well-being and for this reason, it's important to have a positive and open mind. This cannot be achieved if one associates with negative thinking people at tinnitus forums.

Michael

I genuinely believe you think your helping people when you post, but seriously Michael! there is nothing positive about your post above.

While positivity is intended to be uplifting and helpful, this post outright blames people for having negative emotions regarding their tinnitus, which you should know can be extremely detrimental.

This type of positivity culture which I see as victim blaming will often see people internalize their struggles and cause them to feel guilt and shame, unfortunately not all of us can put on a happy face all the time.

TRT is not going to work for everybody, but when you read on a support forum that a treatment did not work because of ones negative thinking its no wonder people in the suicidal thread feel like a burden instead of a normal human being, with normal emotional feelings.

Too many times I have seen people who express their feelings of frustration, sadness, depression, anger, or grief met with comments of "it could be worse" or "maybe it would help to change your attitude about it."

Tinnitus is already a very isolating thing, with most people not understanding what you're going through, I am all for positivity but not at the expense of making others feel guilty.

 

[Zugzug]

What a perfect example of how TRT is being used to blame the patient. If it didn't work you were just negative. How arrogant do you even have to be to suggest someone didn't benefit from TRT because they were too negative? Quite abhorrent behavior.

Michael, the humble non-expert, knows that 90% of hearing disorders are attitude. How? Because he's an expert with intuition beyond scientific reports. But he's also not an expert, and doesn't claim to be one.

Virtue signaling is so fun. It must be fun to take the credit for people's body healing itself with time.

 

[Jazzer]

I genuinely believe you think your helping people when you post, but seriously Michael! there is nothing positive about your post above.

While positivity is intended to be uplifting and helpful, this post outright blames people for having negative emotions regarding their tinnitus, which you should know can be extremely detrimental.

This type of positivity culture which I see as victim blaming will often see people internalize their struggles and cause them to feel guilt and shame, unfortunately not all of us can put on a happy face all the time.

TRT is not going to work for everybody, but when you read on a support forum that a treatment did not work because of ones negative thinking its no wonder people in the suicidal thread feel like a burden instead of a normal human being, with normal emotional feelings.

Too many times I have seen people who express their feelings of frustration, sadness, depression, anger, or grief met with comments of "it could be worse" or "maybe it would help to change your attitude about it."

Tinnitus is already a very isolating thing, with most people not understanding what you're going through, I am all for positivity but not at the expense of making others feel guilty.

Absolutely spot on post Star.

Michael Leigh like some others on this forum, are very happy to keep throwing the accusation of negativity at sufferers.

That wretched word should never come from the mouth, or pen, of anybody who genuinely cares for others.

It is hurtful, damaging, adds a further burden to the sufferer, and should have been ditched years ago.

It also shows a total lack of understanding.

I have consistently campaigned for it to be dropped,
but of course - 'they - know - best !!'

 

[Zugzug]

I genuinely believe you think your helping people when you post, but seriously Michael! there is nothing positive about your post above.

While positivity is intended to be uplifting and helpful, this post outright blames people for having negative emotions regarding their tinnitus, which you should know can be extremely detrimental.

This type of positivity culture which I see as victim blaming will often see people internalize their struggles and cause them to feel guilt and shame, unfortunately not all of us can put on a happy face all the time.

TRT is not going to work for everybody, but when you read on a support forum that a treatment did not work because of ones negative thinking its no wonder people in the suicidal thread feel like a burden instead of a normal human being, with normal emotional feelings.

Too many times I have seen people who express their feelings of frustration, sadness, depression, anger, or grief met with comments of "it could be worse" or "maybe it would help to change your attitude about it."

Tinnitus is already a very isolating thing, with most people not understanding what you're going through, I am all for positivity but not at the expense of making others feel guilty.

I once had a teacher who was obsessed with positivity. If he asked us how we were doing, we had to say "great."

As I got older, I realized how strange and antithetical to correct psychological techniques this was. What if one of the kids was being abused? What if they were sick and their parents sent them to school and told them to suck it up?

As a guiding principle, I agree that being enabled can be a bad thing. But when I picture people on here venting, I picture them having people around them that don't relate. I picture them faking happiness a lot and being fed up with it so coming on here to unload.

Toxic positivity is really, really bad.

 

[GregCA]

I feel that many professionals should be retrained (based solely upon my experience).

Oh so that's what Tinnitus Retraining Therapy is about...

 

[Contrast]

You guys do realize the vast majority of ENT's would defend Leigh's position. The only thing calling him here out does is help new comers avoid his trap.

 

[Zugzug]

I'm one of the worst cases of hyperacusis. I'm ignored by Michael, despite trying to see the good in him and praising him.

Meanwhile, the scared person who had tinnitus for a few weeks thinks Michael is a hero.

Apparently the difference between me and that person is attitude. I'm done saying nice things. You have to be a straight up immoral monster to view the world like that.

 

[FGG]

You guys do realize the vast majority of ENT's would defend Leigh's position. The only thing calling him here out does is help new comers avoid his trap.

That's still something but it's also possible enough patients will eventually push back enough to prompt ENTs to look into the studies more.

 

[Michael Leigh]

I genuinely believe you think your helping people when you post, but seriously Michael! there is nothing positive about your post above.

While positivity is intended to be uplifting and helpful, this post outright blames people for having negative emotions regarding their tinnitus, which you should know can be extremely detrimental.

This type of positivity culture which I see as victim blaming will often see people internalize their struggles and cause them to feel guilt and shame, unfortunately not all of us can put on a happy face all the time.

TRT is not going to work for everybody, but when you read on a support forum that a treatment did not work because of ones negative thinking its no wonder people in the suicidal thread feel like a burden instead of a normal human being, with normal emotional feelings.

Too many times I have seen people who express their feelings of frustration, sadness, depression, anger, or grief met with comments of "it could be worse" or "maybe it would help to change your attitude about it."

Tinnitus is already a very isolating thing, with most people not understanding what you're going through, I am all for positivity but not at the expense of making others feel guilty.

Thank you for your post @Star64 I have previously said I am here to help people with Noise induced tinnitus and that is what I intend to do. I am not here to answer questions or get into discussions with forum members, particularly when they are confrontational. I know what I meant when I wrote the post that you are referring to but unfortunately some people don't. In the passed I have found our correspondence to be amicable, even jovial at times and that's all I'm prepared to say.

Goodbye and I wish you well.
Michael

 

[ASilverLight]

I am habituated and my tinnitus is very intrusive and loud; there's a cacophony of noise in my head and ears at all times. However, I realise that things can change in the blink of an eye and I could be back in hell in a matter of seconds. I feel like I am dragging a heavy burden around with me and it's like a ticking time-bomb. That's why I'd prefer to see real treatments or a cure, to help those who can't habituate or as a safety net for those who are like myself.

We need more options!

I guess I'll habituate eventually. I'm less than 4 months in and even though it's still a confusing hell, I also know that this means I may still improve, especially as I get closer to figuring out what's really causing my tinnitus. That doesn't mean my 20s are going to be lost to a horrible condition. For me, not having silence is horrible but the real thing that gets to me is how much my options from now on are limited, and how a lot of opportunities are taken from me at such a young age.

That, and the fact I went from no tinnitus ever and supreme hearing to a symphony of sounds different in both ears and still supreme hearing - but it's intrusive enough to keep me from enjoying music.

I've barely started living, and now this. Learning to ''deal'' with the condition can maybe make an improvement in my life, emotionally, but it won't increase my quality of life and for that reason we NEED better treatments/cures. We need to look at what really makes the brain misfire signals so much, and how to diminish that.

 

[Michael Leigh]

I'm one of the worst cases of hyperacusis. I'm ignored by Michael, despite trying to see the good in him and praising him.

Meanwhile, the scared person who had tinnitus for a few weeks thinks Michael is a hero.

Apparently the difference between me and that person is attitude. I'm done saying nice things. You have to be a straight up immoral monster to view the world like that.

I have not placed you on ignore yet but if you push me too far then I will.

Michael

 

[Greg Sacramento]

There are several reasons that I don't like recommendation of TRT and mindfulness. Just a little focus only on corporate direct reasons and not all the angles as discussed in logic practice (good or greedy). I refer to corporate as management of medical health care services and insurance companies.

Most doctors and license healthcare givers have practicing rights or associations to medical care giving establishments. For hospitals - having given treatment or referral is important to 'Chief of Staff' accreditation rating services. I was on my hospital rating service management team for both State and Federal accreditation. In medical chart reviewing, if treatment wasn't given - doctors were asked to fill in TRT or of the same. This method is also used by government healthcare agencies.

Some ENTs, pain doctors and other doctors may say that medically you will have to live with your tinnitus. They will mention TRT, mindfulness or meditation. They will chart this as giving treatment.

I will take a dollar for every time that I heard a doctor say for someone with tinnitus and even sometimes pain, our system can't spend the time and insurance payment allocation needed beyond hearing tests and a MRI.

 

[FGG]

There are several reasons that I don't like recommendation of TRT and mindfulness. Just a little focus only on corporate direct reasons and not all the angles as discussed in logic practice (good or greedy). I refer to corporate as management of medical health care services and insurance companies.

Most doctors and license healthcare givers have practicing rights or associations to medical care giving establishments. For hospitals - having given treatment or referral is important to 'Chief of Staff' accreditation rating services. I was on my hospital rating service management team for both State and Federal accreditation. In medical chart reviewing, if treatment wasn't given - doctors were asked to fill in TRT or of the same. This method is also used by government healthcare agencies.

Some ENTs, pain doctors and other doctors may say that medically you will have to live with your tinnitus. They will mention TRT, mindfulness or meditation. They will chart this as giving treatment.

I will take a dollar for every time that I heard a doctor say for someone with tinnitus and even sometimes pain, our system can't spend the time and insurance payment allocation needed beyond hearing tests and a MRI.

This absolutely confirms for me, at least in the US health care system, TRT does more harm than good.

 

[Zugzug]

There are several reasons that I don't like recommendation of TRT and mindfulness. Just a little focus only on corporate direct reasons and not all the angles as discussed in logic practice (good or greedy). I refer to corporate as management of medical health care services and insurance companies.

Most doctors and license healthcare givers have practicing rights or associations to medical care giving establishments. For hospitals - having given treatment or referral is important to 'Chief of Staff' accreditation rating services. I was on my hospital rating service management team for both State and Federal accreditation. In medical chart reviewing, if treatment wasn't given - doctors were asked to fill in TRT or of the same. This method is also used by government healthcare agencies.

Some ENTs, pain doctors and other doctors may say that medically you will have to live with your tinnitus. They will mention TRT, mindfulness or meditation. They will chart this as giving treatment.

I will take a dollar for every time that I heard a doctor say for someone with tinnitus and even sometimes pain, our system can't spend the time and insurance payment allocation needed beyond hearing tests and a MRI.

That's precisely what I'm upset about -- that feeling of satisfaction when a doctor thinks they correctly sent someone to a psychiatrist for treatment. Nope, you did nothing. It's okay, it's not your fault that the therapies aren't available to you as a doctor. Just don't think that because the patient doesn't return, the psychiatrist squared them away.

 

[Contrast]

That's precisely what I'm upset about -- that feeling of satisfaction when a doctor thinks they correctly sent someone to a psychiatrist for treatment. Nope, you did nothing. It's okay, it's not your fault that the therapies aren't available to you as a doctor. Just don't think that because the patient doesn't return, the psychiatrist squared them away.

I don't think it's entirely like that. Doctors know we are miserable, they just follow the limited options they have.

The state is looking for the cheapest possible option to get you out the door and back to work, and CBT is the cheapest option. That's why even TRT lost it's stronghold to CBT. The cheapest low risk option will always win.


Economics dictate everything.

 

[Michael Leigh]

You guys do realize the vast majority of ENT's would defend Leigh's position. The only thing calling him here out does is help new comers avoid his trap.

If ENT's were to defend me as you say @Contrast then I hope it is for the right reasons and not what you or others might believe them to be, regarding my comments on negativity and tinnitus. I have mentioned many times in this forum, there is nothing wrong in a person expressing how they feel about tinnitus when they find it stressful, debilitating or otherwise. I know from personal experience having to endure four long years to habituate for the second time and how emotionally draining it was at times. Somehow I kept my resolve as others have in this forum when tinnitus has taken them to the brink. My remarks on negativity and tinnitus, are directed at those that denounce all forms of treatment for the condition because they deem them as ineffective because they are not cures. This is quite different from one expressing the need for finding a cure or asking the question why hasn't one been found yet?

You talk about newcomers avoiding my trap. How about the trap they are likely to find themselves in, when they read posts from you and others, ridiculing and berating someone that's written they are having success with TRT. When that isn't enough pasting reports in the forum from websites to refute their claims. Resulting in the member making a swift exit perhaps never returning again for I sensed she was quite upset.

I regularly meet x Tinnitus Talk members at other forums and I am always asked, is it still full of negative people. They are not talking about people expressing the way tinnitus makes them feel.

Michael.

 

[Autumnly]

My remarks on negativity and tinnitus, are directed at those that denounce all forms of treatment for the condition because they deem them as ineffective because they are not cures. This is quite different from one expressing the need for finding a cure or asking a question why hasn't one been found yet?

Mainly because they want a cure for the condition and nothing else will be acceptable. They moan and groan with likeminded people, blaming their government and medical professionals for their plight in life.

You regularly mock and shame people who are in severe distress and wondering why we haven't found a cure yet. Also, wondering why we haven't found a cure yet is not the same as saying someone would accept nothing but a cure. You accuse many people of settling for nothing but a cure but most people, while they'd love to see a cure, want treatments that can noticeably reduce the volume.

How about the trap they are likely to find themselves in, when they read posts from you and others, ridiculing and berating someone that's written they are having success with TRT. When that isn't enough pasting reports in the forum from websites to refute their claims. Resulting in the member making a swift exit perhaps never returning again for I sensed she was quite upset.

That member literally said she doesn't believe that millions of people are suffering due to tinnitus even when shown the numbers by the American Tinnitus Association. The post is right there in her thread. She made it clear that she believes everyone can achieve habituation and that tinnitus distress is purely based on someone's emotional reaction - she probably learned that from TRT and Julian Cowan Hill. Also, even the people who disagreed with her congratulated her on getting better. These success stories show how harmful TRT and the neurophysiological model by Jastreboff are as they blame the patient for not getting better and see tinnitus as a condition that can never be debilitating in itself.

 

[Ed209]

The state is looking for the cheapest possible option to get you out the door and back to work, and CBT is the cheapest option. That's why even TRT lost it's stronghold to CBT. The cheapest low risk option will always win.

There isn't an effective treatment to offer and that's the problem. CBT can be tried by anyone, with enough patience and drive, for the price of a good book. I'm aware, however, that it's far from practical for many who are deeply depressed and don't have the motivation to give it a go, and it certainly won't help everyone. Far from it. That is why we need treatments that can objectively lower the volume of the perceived noise.

This requires more funding and research.

 

[Greg Sacramento]

https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT01177137

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamaotolaryngology/article-abstract/2734346

For discussion

 

[Lucifer]

@Autumnly

Which Tinnitus Talk member are you talking about who said that she doesn't believe that people are suffering due to tinnitus and that everyone can habituate?

 

[Michael Leigh]

@Lucifer

The person to whom I refer in my post to @Contrast she is just one of many, that have been ridiculed and berated by certain members in this forum, for saying they are having success with TRT and other forms of tinnitus treatment, that has lead them on the path to habituation.

Michael

 

[Autumnly]

@Autumnly

Which Tinnitus Talk member are you talking about who said that she doesn't believe that people are suffering due to tinnitus and that everyone can habituate?

Spoiler

Why are there harldly any therapists? Why are there so few well-written books by experts? And why are there so few people on this forum? Because there are not millions of people in tinnitus distress.

If it was true that millions of people are in utter distress with tinnitus there would be more therapists offering their help.

It says, in a nutshell, that according to tinnitus expert Prof Jastrebroff, the brain has special neurons that can amplify sounds according to our negative emotions. We can understand this when we think of a mother who wakes up when her new-born stirs (fear) but sleeps through a thunder storm. In other words, the more we dislike or fear the tinnitus the louder it becomes. This is vicious, I know, but the good news is that if we let go of these negative feelings, the amplifier neurons will become unresponsive and the ear noises will revert to their healthy state, where we can only hear them when we concentrate but where they rarely or never intrude into our consciousness uninvited.

As soon your brain gets that message it will start to switch the amplifier neurons lower and eventually off.

Never mind what Jastrebroff says - maybe he was in a bad mood.

Autumnly, can you please provide evidence for these claims as you may otherwise be accused of scare-mongering.

Also, it's clear from the ratings and comments she got that many people liked her success story and were happy for her. Michael is, as usual, painting a one-sided picture of the story. People didn't criticize her for benefitting from TRT but implying it would work for everyone, saying people are fear-mongering if they share "negative" statistics and saying she doesn't believe millions of people worldwide are currently suffering.

 

[Lucifer]

@Lucifer

The person to whom I refer in my post to @Contrast she is just one of many, that have been ridiculed and berated by certain members in this forum, for saying they are having success with TRT and other forms of tinnitus treatment, that has lead them on the path to habituation.

Michael

I mean that's good that she got relief from TRT and it worked for her. She's one of the few people on this forum that I know who has had success with TRT other than you.

But if it's true that she stated that she doesn't believe that millions of people can suffer from tinnitus and that everyone can habituate to tinnitus that is NOT OK to say at all. She is being rude to us severe suffers who have been here longer on this forum than her.

If that's the case she needs to know more about different levels of tinnitus and not everyone can habituate. I just hope she understand this.

 

[Lucifer]

Also, it's clear from the ratings and comments she got that many people liked her success story and were happy for her. Michael is, as usual, painting a one-sided picture of the story. People didn't criticize her for benefitting from TRT but implying it would work for everyone, saying people are fear-mongering if they share "negative" statistics and saying she doesn't believe millions of people worldwide are currently suffering.

Omg this is definitely NOT OK. She is bashing severe sufferers by saying she doesn't believe that millions of people suffer. These words that she has stated hurt our tinnitus community.

This is what happens when newbies listen to the wrong advice and fall for the trap.

She does not realise the words that she is saying hurt us as severe tinnitus sufferers.

This is NOT OK and when she comes back to the forums I hope that she realises her words hurt us and changes her opinion.