Tinnitus, TMJ, Headaches, Neck Pain, Facial Pain, etc. — Possible Treatment

[Mr. Cartman]

Am I the only one who gets face thingling / numbness below the eyes? I'm also the only one with any vision shaking up close and the only one who is getting weird cold water or burning sensations?

Ive had / got so many weird symptoms that I dont know where to start. Tingling, facial pain, numbness, cold / warm sensations.. I can relate very well to @chronicburn . I think whatever is up with him, is up with me, and maybe you as well.

When I drove my car today I got this tingling / twitching stuff below my left eye just to name one weird thing that has happened during the day. It kinda felt like electric jolts.

Do you have any success with NUCCA yet?

 

[chronicburn]

@Sound Wave
@chronicburn
@Sjtof
@Jay M

I just had that EUREKA moment while reading through this. I do believe this could explain a lot of cases of somatic T,
also the link between tinnitus, muscle tension in jaw and neck, loud noise, anxiety etc.

I had to manually format the text, so please forgive me if there are some typos in the article.

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( Source: http://www.headclin.co.za/uploads/ftp/DrShevelPublications/Specialist_Forum_May06.pdf )
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Headache and tinnitus:
correlation found

Introduction
Researchers at The Headache Clinic have found an interesting correlation between headaches and tinnitus. Both tinnitus and headaches are exceedingly common, and each affects about 20% of the population. This means that in South Africa alone, there may be as many as 8 million headache sufferers and possibly the same number of people with tinnitus! More people visit their doctor for headaches than for any other ailment, and tinnitus is the most common complaint seen by ENT surgeons.

Tinnitus is when one hears noises that aren't there. The noises most commonly heard are ringing, buzzing, zinging, whistling, humming, whooshing, or the high pitched sound that Christmas beetles make. Most people don't have very loud tinnitus, but some unlucky individuals experience such loud noise that it interferes with their normal everyday routine. It can be so loud that people sometimes say they feel like committing suicide and some have.

Although there is no external noise source, the noise is very real for someone with tinnitus.
Tinnitus can be extremely debilitating, affecting peoples' ability to work or cope with normal life activities.

People with tinnitus may suffer from:

. Extreme distress (this is common)
. Depression
. Frequent mood swings, depression or anxiety attacks
. Tension, irritability or frustration
. Poor concentration
. Sleep problems.

The interesting thing is that all the above problem so often also occur in headache and migraine sufferers.

Co-morbidity

When the doctors at The Headache Clinic examined their statistics, they found that a significant proportion of headache sufferers also suffered from tinnitus. The numbers were higher than one would expect in a random sample of the general population. Of a sample of 150 patients whose migraines had been successfully treated, no fewer than 67 (45%) had suffered from tinnitus. This figure is more than double that found in the general population. After successful headache teatment, 39 of the 67 reported that their tinnitus had either disappeared, or had improved substantially. The same correlation was found in those people who suffered from tension headache.

Where was the correlation - what was the link?

The Headache Clinic research team did a through computer generated search of the medical literature - thousands of papers were sourced and read, and the results confirmed what they had found. Tinnitus is a commons symptom of people who have muscle tension of the jaw and/or neck muscles. The research team found a large number of papers published in intenational respected medical journals, where the link between muscle tension and tinnitus had been reported. Not only that, but there was also a link between tinnitus and a bad bite. When the bite was corrected, and the muscle tension treated, the tinnitus improved or disappeared. All of the 150 headache patients that had been successfully treated had been suffering from headache related to muscle tension in the jaw and neck muscles. Muscle tension is found in both tension headache sufferers and in migraine sufferers.

When the muscle tension is reduced, the headaches and migraines disappear or improve drastically in most people.
But how could muscle tension in the jaw and neck cause a ringing in the ears?
And how could an uneven bite be part of the problem?

Where the bite comes in, is that when someone has a bite problem, it may cause existing muscle tension problems to become worse. This can happen at any time, but may also occur if there is a new tooth filling that hasn't been trimmed down sufficiently, or if the dentist has fitted a crown or bridge that is a little high, or even with ill-fitting or uncomfortable dentures.

Dental treatment
The solution?

The problem with treating tinnitus is that because muscle tension and bite problems are usually treated by dentists and dental specialists, all the reports were in journals read by dentists and dental specialists.
To make matters more complicated, in all the reports, tinnitus is mentioned almost in passing, together with other symptoms. None of the reports appeared in those journals read by ENT Surgeons.

The result has beent hat ENTs, to whom tinnitus sufferers are usually referred, are to a large extent unaware that some of the patients they are seeing can be helped or even cured by their dental colleagues. That means that there are large numbers of people out there with a condition that can be treated, but who are not receiving the correct treatment because of the way medicine has been compartmentalised into different disciplines, which very seldom communicate with one another.

But even though muscle tension in the jaw and neck muscles can cause a ringing in the ears, what is the mechanism? How do tense muscles cause one to hear sounds that aren't there?

Mechanism

To understand the answer one has to first learn a little about how the eardrum works. The eardrum (tympanic membrane) is actually like any other drum - that is, it is a tight membrane that vibrates when sound waves hit it - like a drum that vibrates when it is beaten with drumsticks. If the eardrum is too tight or too loose, then the sound will be of a different quality. So the eardrum has to remain tuned all the time, to maintain its proper tension, and to allow us to hear properly. The secret of the link lies in the way that the eardrum is tuned. On the inside of the eardrum is a tiny muscle (the tensor tympani muscle) that attaches to the eardrum, and by tensing and relaxing, keeps the drum at its best tension. This muscle is working all the time, and when it is working properly, keeps the eardrum at just the right tension. But it doesn't work in isolation. It is one of a group of muscles that tends to act together because their nerves end in the same part ofthe brain - in other words, if some of the muscles in the group tense up, then the others are also likely to become tense. If the tensor tympani pulls a little too hard, then it pulls the eardrum too tight, and one starts hearing noises. That is why headache and migraine sufferers who have been treated successfully for their headaches, also often notice an improvement in their tinnitus.

The tie-up between headaches caused by muscle tension and tinnitus was wonderfully explained in 1964 by Hylmar Myrhaug, a Danish Ear Nose and Throat Surgeon writing in the British Joumal of Oral Surgery. He explained that the constant tension on the ear drum from the tensor tympani over the years, slowly made the drum stretch. In his article, he described the changes that take place in the eardrum, which make it possible to diagnose the presence of jaw and neck muscle tension by just looking at the changed way that the drum reflects light!
Approximately 50-60% of people with tinnitus have muscle tension that can be treated, so there is hope for at least half of the world's tinnitus sufferers.

Often the tinnitus starts with exposure to loud sounds, or with extreme stress, or trauma such as a whiplash injury. This type of tinnitus is particularly likely to be related to muscle tension, as all these stimuli can result in muscle tension. In many tinnitus sufferers, however, the noise starts without any identifiable cause. It just starts spontaneously, and may get worse and worse as time passes. This type is also often related to muscle tension.

The relationship between muscle tension and tinnitus can sometimes be dramatically demonstrated. One of the patients at The Headache Clinic complained that when his neck was painful, the tinnitus was loudest.
As it happens, while he was being examined, his tinnitus became very loud, and he was able to pinpoint the place in his neck muscles that always became painful. The nursing sister who was examining him injected a little local anaesthetic into the painful spot, which relaxed the muscle and took away the pain. This reaction had been expected, but what also happened is that within 20 seconds the tinnitus had died down so much that it was barely audible.

Prevention

But it is not emergency treatment like this that is really important. It is far better to prevent the problem than to treat it once it is there. With the vast experience that The Headache Clinic team has accumulated in the prevention of headaches and migraines, it was a simple matter to tum that knowledge to the preventive treatment of tinnitus.
Particularly because the two conditions may be caused by the same problem - muscle tension.
This doesn't mean that all headache and migraine sufferers will have tinnitus, and or that all tinnitus sufferers will get headaches. Muscle tension in one patient may result only in tinnitus, in another in migraine, and in a third, both may occur at the same time. People react differently.

Treatment

When it comes to treatment, there are a number of options. The philosophy adopted by The Headache Clinic is that if it is at all possible to treat a condition without drugs, then that should be the first choice. Fortunately this can be achieved in most patients with problems related to muscle tension. About 80% of headache and migraine sufferers, and 60% of tinnitus sufferers can be helped with a patented intra-oral appliance called the Posture Modifying Appliance or PMA. that is exclusive to The Headache Clinic. It is exceedingly comfortable, doesn't interfere with speech, is invisible to other people, and it is highly effective in reducing tension in the jaw and neck muscles, and consequently, because it is a part of the group, in the tensor tympani.
Patients often ask how an intra-oral appliance like the PMA can help to reduce tension in the muscles of the neck. This is a fair question, but there is a very simple answer. The jaw and neck muscles work together in a finely co-ordinated manner. When the jaw muscles are tense up, so do the neck muscles. When the jaw muscles relax, the neck muscles also relax. If this were not so, then every time one opened and closed one's jaws to speak, chew, or swallow, then the head would bob up and down - unless of course the neck muscles compensated for the changes in jaw muscle tension. The muscles are able to co-ordinate so well because they are all controlled by the same part of the brain.

The Posture Modifying Appliance is sometimes used in conjunction with physiotherapy, or with trigger point injections to the tense muscles, which means that the muscle tension is being tackled by combining two or more therapies. The injections could be a combination of cortisone and a local anaesthetic, or in some cases, Botox. It is also important to check the bite, and to eliminate any bite problems that may be contributing to the problem.
In cerlain patients, it may also be necessary to provide an added kick-start with specific medications, although in most cases, medication is not necessary.

So the important message for headache and migraine and tinnitus sufferers out there is that help is at hand. All these problems can be successfully treated in the majority of people, and it is no longer necessary to resign yourself to a life of constant pain or intolerable buzzing in the ears or both.

Now that is a very interesting post thanks for that! The explanation about the eardrum being tensed up could very well explain the correlation to other muscles being tensed, the way that musclerelaxants dim the t slightly, and above aml else why it seems to reactto sounds and etc (in my case muscles in the ear tense up and my t morphs a bit in the direction of the sound being heard, for example the sound of my motorcycle often lowers the frequency of my t and gives it a white noisish aspect, but this could also be my mind playing tricks with me . It still wouldnt explain how we experience repeated muscle tension in the corresponding areas. I can't believe tmd would be responsible for all of it, in my case my whiplash mightve started it, but i'm still not sure what's the big factor behind all that tension continuously building up. (It at least feels that way, because we both had periods of intermittent t, and that slight hiss, before the ''real'' onset of t.
Hoping that your mri or mine will answer something.

@chronicburn
@Sjtof
@applewine

I was in contact with a doctor today that will inject my triggerpoints with anesthetics (something similar to lidocaine) if the MRI images doesnt show anything.

How you all doing btw?

Also great that you'll be able to inject tps with anesthetics! If this is all literally related to the muscle tension, you might expect at least a big short term relief of your t, i'm very curious to the outcome! I don't know about the risks of doing that in the neck area though, but it looks weirder than it is, they're just muscles after all.

I'm doing quite fine i suppose, roughly speaking i had a period of very low t, really enjoyed it, also pains are almost absent again, expcept for feelings concerning the ear itself, i had some really awful pain stings inside my right ear when turning my neck the last days, when it happened i could reproduce thzt exaxt same pain by lmoving my neck again in the same position for a few mins or so and then it disappeared, don't know what that could be, but it felt like very painful muscle spasms, they were thumping also according with my heartrate. Lately my t spiked up again and my neck is feeling quite stiff, but it's my own fault for a part, have been very busy lately and kind of neglected my neck and etc, i'm confident i can bring it down again soon, and like you said i'm gonna try some things out as well, this has to go, and posture and stretching and such provides relief but there must be more than that .

Last i was reading a few posts back what you were saying about the stylohyloid and pterigoideus muscles, they are killers for me too, in fact it was extensive release of tension in the pteriigoideus/stylohyloid muscle (im not fullysure which one) that sparked a period of very low t for weeks last month, lowest i ever had, a mellow white noise sound instead of the crt one, nowadays those muscles are agzin very tense, but it seems a lot harder to release tension this time, so i don't know for sure...

 

[applewine]

I have not seen the MRI report, but I got a summary over the phone. They are mailing me a copy. I was not scheduled to go back to see the doctor that ordered it for about a month after having it. I was told C-5 and C-6 were bulging, but I think that may be a normal variance you could observe in any population as I've read about discs and such.

I've been to two NUCCA appointments where they did an "adjustment" and the last one they said I didn't need one and he just briefly said he wants me to do trigger point treatment with a tennis ball on my back where I feel it. He also said to do some other stretches. He sent me an email with instructions.

I'm extremely doubtful of the NUCCA thing, but I'm curious enough as to why people do it or think it works.

I did a search for "trigger points face numbness" and got this page:
http://www.minnesotamedicine.com/Past-Issues/Past-Issues-2010/May-2010/Clinical-Hubbard-May-2010

The page mentions "neurological symptoms" and "sensory symptoms". It mentions the trigemonocervical complex. That is something I've been tipped off to before when I posed ton a TMJ forum that a dentist answers questions to. He said my symptoms could be caused by the trigeminal cervical nucleus. It goes by a few names.

I mentioned this to my neurologist and he said that was impossible because I would be severely injured if that were the case. However I think he is wrong and is not familiar with lesser forms of malfunction. That neurologist also didn't know what trigger points where.

Check out that link. It does NOT mention cold water sensations all over that are not connected to trigger points, but it does talk about the brain and sensory stuff in a vague reference.

It says "to be effective, trigger-point therapy must be performed by a physical therapist who is skilled in manual therapy with myofascial release techniques.32"

So does that mean I tell my primary care doctor to refer my to a physiatrist or physical therapy clinic where they have a physical therapist that is skilled in that? According to the website the physical therapist is supposed to be able to find and put pressure on these trigger points. Every physical therapist, even the ones I pay %100 out of pocket and those who specialize in trigger points have said it is beneath them to press on trigger points. The few that do treat trigger points use dry needles where I am and I've tried that. I don't think that works as well for everything because you have to find the trigger points with your hands and by communicating with the patient to find them.

It is a two-way process of asking the patient for feedback where the trigger points are and then pressing on them the right way. You also have to know the referral patterns. Physical therapist in the USA say this is the work of a Message therapist but they know nothing of medical stuff and neurology and of course medical services don't cover their work. If I found one I knew would work I would pay them, but it is so hard to find them and you have to pay $100 per visit to test their service to see if they even know what they are doing.

 

[Mr. Cartman]

Now that is a very interesting post thanks for that! The explanation about the eardrum being tensed up could very well explain the correlation to other muscles being tensed, the way that musclerelaxants dim the t slightly, and above aml else why it seems to reactto sounds and etc (in my case muscles in the ear tense up and my t morphs a bit in the direction of the sound being heard, for example the sound of my motorcycle often lowers the frequency of my t and gives it a white noisish aspect, but this could also be my mind playing tricks with me . It still wouldnt explain how we experience repeated muscle tension in the corresponding areas. I can't believe tmd would be responsible for all of it, in my case my whiplash mightve started it, but i'm still not sure what's the big factor behind all that tension continuously building up. (It at least feels that way, because we both had periods of intermittent t, and that slight hiss, before the ''real'' onset of t.
Hoping that your mri or mine will answer something.


Also great that you'll be able to inject tps with anesthetics! If this is all literally related to the muscle tension, you might expect at least a big short term relief of your t, i'm very curious to the outcome! I don't know about the risks of doing that in the neck area though, but it looks weirder than it is, they're just muscles after all.

I'm doing quite fine i suppose, roughly speaking i had a period of very low t, really enjoyed it, also pains are almost absent again, expcept for feelings concerning the ear itself, i had some really awful pain stings inside my right ear when turning my neck the last days, when it happened i could reproduce thzt exaxt same pain by lmoving my neck again in the same position for a few mins or so and then it disappeared, don't know what that could be, but it felt like very painful muscle spasms, they were thumping also according with my heartrate. Lately my t spiked up again and my neck is feeling quite stiff, but it's my own fault for a part, have been very busy lately and kind of neglected my neck and etc, i'm confident i can bring it down again soon, and like you said i'm gonna try some things out as well, this has to go, and posture and stretching and such provides relief but there must be more than that .

Last i was reading a few posts back what you were saying about the stylohyloid and pterigoideus muscles, they are killers for me too, in fact it was extensive release of tension in the pteriigoideus/stylohyloid muscle (im not fullysure which one) that sparked a period of very low t for weeks last month, lowest i ever had, a mellow white noise sound instead of the crt one, nowadays those muscles are agzin very tense, but it seems a lot harder to release tension this time, so i don't know for sure...

Hi mate! Good to hear that you are doing better! Ive had a lot less pain the last days as well, but its interesting what you say about the ear pain.. I have had that on and off, and a constant weird feeling in my ears.. Like the ears are very far apart eachother, or like the eardrum is missing... Hard to explain, but its just a weird feeling... And when the pain kicks in, its indeed pulsating to my heartbeats. When my heart beats, thats when the pain peaks.

But this funny weird feeling in my ears are very annoying! It literally feels like the eardrum is being overstretched or something. And occasionally I have this pressure sensation around my nose, mostly one side at the time.

However, the last two days my T has been pretty much gone. I havent heard it during the day at all, which I would think is a good sign, but Ive been paying really good attention to my muscles as well.

Its really good to hear that the pain are easing down for you! I would think that to completely get rid of it, we have to find the root of this problem, and I doubt that the jaw is the root cause as well, but rather the neck area, and that the jaw tension is a secondary symptom.

I was hoping you had received the MRI report by now

If they cant find any obvious cause on the MRI that can be treated, I will inject every single TP with anesthetic to see how it works out.

 

[Mr. Cartman]

I have not seen the MRI report, but I got a summary over the phone. They are mailing me a copy. I was not scheduled to go back to see the doctor that ordered it for about a month after having it. I was told C-5 and C-6 were bulging, but I think that may be a normal variance you could observe in any population as I've read about discs and such.

I've been to two NUCCA appointments where they did an "adjustment" and the last one they said I didn't need one and he just briefly said he wants me to do trigger point treatment with a tennis ball on my back where I feel it. He also said to do some other stretches. He sent me an email with instructions.

I'm extremely doubtful of the NUCCA thing, but I'm curious enough as to why people do it or think it works.

I did a search for "trigger points face numbness" and got this page:
http://www.minnesotamedicine.com/Past-Issues/Past-Issues-2010/May-2010/Clinical-Hubbard-May-2010

The page mentions "neurological symptoms" and "sensory symptoms". It mentions the trigemonocervical complex. That is something I've been tipped off to before when I posed ton a TMJ forum that a dentist answers questions to. He said my symptoms could be caused by the trigeminal cervical nucleus. It goes by a few names.

I mentioned this to my neurologist and he said that was impossible because I would be severely injured if that were the case. However I think he is wrong and is not familiar with lesser forms of malfunction. That neurologist also didn't know what trigger points where.

Check out that link. It does NOT mention cold water sensations all over that are not connected to trigger points, but it does talk about the brain and sensory stuff in a vague reference.

It says "to be effective, trigger-point therapy must be performed by a physical therapist who is skilled in manual therapy with myofascial release techniques.32"

So does that mean I tell my primary care doctor to refer my to a physiatrist or physical therapy clinic where they have a physical therapist that is skilled in that? According to the website the physical therapist is supposed to be able to find and put pressure on these trigger points. Every physical therapist, even the ones I pay %100 out of pocket and those who specialize in trigger points have said it is beneath them to press on trigger points. The few that do treat trigger points use dry needles where I am and I've tried that. I don't think that works as well for everything because you have to find the trigger points with your hands and by communicating with the patient to find them.

It is a two-way process of asking the patient for feedback where the trigger points are and then pressing on them the right way. You also have to know the referral patterns. Physical therapist in the USA say this is the work of a Message therapist but they know nothing of medical stuff and neurology and of course medical services don't cover their work. If I found one I knew would work I would pay them, but it is so hard to find them and you have to pay $100 per visit to test their service to see if they even know what they are doing.

So now they say you dont need NUCCA treatment, but instead use a tennisball at home?

I do believe that there is something to triggerpoints and that they can cause pain indeed, but Im not quite sure if triggerpoints are the cause of the stuff Im experiencing. There are several spots where nerves pierces through muscles, and I believe that if those muscles develop triggerpoints or tension in close relation to the nerve, it could result in some nasty neuralgia symptoms.

Did they include T1 in your MRI?

I included T1 and T2 as well, as I find it very interesting that all 4 of us have this painful spot between our shoulderblades.

Very interesting article you found there.

I would think that measuring nerve firings could provide some accurate information though, at least where the signals originates from. And botox might be a good nerve block. If im heading for TP injections, Ill make sure to let you know how it works out.

I find it very odd that the physical therapists you have seen does not want to try to manually release your triggerpoints.
Ive seen a couple of physios, and all of them have been very familiar with triggerpoints and they would do whatever I ask them to do with them (execpt the last one that didnt want to mess with my neck).. I think that TP injections using lidocaine or something similar would at least provide some clues as to what TPs that are causing what (if its TP related).

Ill even try to paralyze a few muscles and nerves as well, if TP injections fails.

 

[chronicburn]

Hi mate! Good to hear that you are doing better! Ive had a lot less pain the last days as well, but its interesting what you say about the ear pain.. I have had that on and off, and a constant weird feeling in my ears.. Like the ears are very far apart eachother, or like the eardrum is missing... Hard to explain, but its just a weird feeling... And when the pain kicks in, its indeed pulsating to my heartbeats. When my heart beats, thats when the pain peaks.

But this funny weird feeling in my ears are very annoying! It literally feels like the eardrum is being overstretched or something. And occasionally I have this pressure sensation around my nose, mostly one side at the time.

However, the last two days my T has been pretty much gone. I havent heard it during the day at all, which I would think is a good sign, but Ive been paying really good attention to my muscles as well.

Its really good to hear that the pain are easing down for you! I would think that to completely get rid of it, we have to find the root of this problem, and I doubt that the jaw is the root cause as well, but rather the neck area, and that the jaw tension is a secondary symptom.

I was hoping you had received the MRI report by now

If they cant find any obvious cause on the MRI that can be treated, I will inject every single TP with anesthetic to see how it works out.

Yes that's exactly the kind of pulsation i'm experiencing with the ear pain, and i can relate a lot to that weird feeling, it feels like a soft disc thats experiencing tension, it is like you say stretched too much, in my ear or something like that, so it could be very possible that it is the ear drum or one of the related middle ear muscles could be the cause of that feeling.

That pressure sensation next/inside the nose is something i have as well on and off, i've had this for a very long time though, i suspect sinus or ET troubles for that, i recall you having troubles with that too some times?
On the other hand some muscles in the neck area can cause symptoms which do really look like clogged sinuses, including sinus headaches and so on if i recall correctly.

Another thing i keep noticing quite regularly, when i sit/lay back in a relaxed position, with my neck supported, so the SCM and the levator aren't being stressed at all, after a few mins or so sitting in that position, my T often morphs from the usual mix between white noise and a CRT, into a low pure tone, but it flutters a bit, like an engine that's running on it's last drops of gas or something like that, on the other hand, this doesn't happen always, but quite often when doing that, so it boggles me a bit, ever had something like this? The CRt tone was 100% gone for about an hour last night when i was doing this, then i sat back up to grab something and the crt tone was back instantaneously, and the low tone faded away in a second or so. If i stood up and walked around i would be able to reduce the CRT tone a bit, but it doesn't do the same as supporting the neck 100%.
I'm guessing this is either very much related to the muscles supporting the neck, or because i randomly stimulate a certain point in my neck by doing this, or i reduce bloodflow because my head is laid back and supported, i have no clue actually.

Great to hear that your T is almost gone mate, for a long time hopefully!
About the MRI i'm still waiting for the results unfortunately, i actually contacted the hospital today to ask why it took so long they said most of their staff is on holiday, and it could very well take another 3weeks or so... Sounds like the summer months are a terrible time if you need to go the hospital . So yeah chances are that yours will even arrive sooner than mine, i will certainly keep you posted though!

 

[Mr. Cartman]

Yes that's exactly the kind of pulsation i'm experiencing with the ear pain, and i can relate a lot to that weird feeling, it feels like a soft disc thats experiencing tension, it is like you say stretched too much, in my ear or something like that, so it could be very possible that it is the ear drum or one of the related middle ear muscles could be the cause of that feeling.

That pressure sensation next/inside the nose is something i have as well on and off, i've had this for a very long time though, i suspect sinus or ET troubles for that, i recall you having troubles with that too some times?
On the other hand some muscles in the neck area can cause symptoms which do really look like clogged sinuses, including sinus headaches and so on if i recall correctly.

Another thing i keep noticing quite regularly, when i sit/lay back in a relaxed position, with my neck supported, so the SCM and the levator aren't being stressed at all, after a few mins or so sitting in that position, my T often morphs from the usual mix between white noise and a CRT, into a low pure tone, but it flutters a bit, like an engine that's running on it's last drops of gas or something like that, on the other hand, this doesn't happen always, but quite often when doing that, so it boggles me a bit, ever had something like this? The CRt tone was 100% gone for about an hour last night when i was doing this, then i sat back up to grab something and the crt tone was back instantaneously, and the low tone faded away in a second or so. If i stood up and walked around i would be able to reduce the CRT tone a bit, but it doesn't do the same as supporting the neck 100%.
I'm guessing this is either very much related to the muscles supporting the neck, or because i randomly stimulate a certain point in my neck by doing this, or i reduce bloodflow because my head is laid back and supported, i have no clue actually.

Great to hear that your T is almost gone mate, for a long time hopefully!
About the MRI i'm still waiting for the results unfortunately, i actually contacted the hospital today to ask why it took so long they said most of their staff is on holiday, and it could very well take another 3weeks or so... Sounds like the summer months are a terrible time if you need to go the hospital . So yeah chances are that yours will even arrive sooner than mine, i will certainly keep you posted though!

Yeah, from what I understand, the muscles in the ear are more or less working together in a group, together with neck and jaw muscles. So if one tense up, the other one might as well, as it seems like they dont work 100% in isolation.

I had one interesting discovery this night though.. All the pain related to tension was gone in my jaw/face/neck etc, until I made a sudden neck movement while getting up from bed. My neck made a pop sound (it felt like it was originating from the C1/c2/C3 area), and suddenly tension in the lateral pterygoid muscle started to build up to a point where it became quite hurtful. It also slightly started to spasm, and the pretty much non-existing T came back. Also, when I press my finger on the C2 area of my neck (kind of between the scalenes and levator scapulae), it triggers this nose pressure sensation I was talking about. So I think its definitely neck related.

A few days ago I was swimming in the pool, and when diving a little down my ears would start to hurt slightly. I think it could be due to increased pressure on the eardrum. If that is the case, I guess it could suggest that the eardrum is unusually tight.

My T morphs all the time when I change posture, being stressed, being relaxed etc.. If Im able to lay down and relax, I even get some kind of a weird feeling of a pressure change inside my ears. Like something opens up and realeasing all the pressure. I dont know if its because of muscles or what. If i retract my neck for a prolonged time, my ears even starts to tickle. Like the soda bubble feeling Sjtof was talking about.

Have you ever tried to "stretch" your temporalis?

Ive been doing that lately, and I found it to be very hurtful as well.
I just place my palms on both side of my head, a little above the ears, and while kind of stretching the muscle upwards (both sides at the same time) towards the top of my head using my palms, I open my mouth as far as I can. I also do this in the temple area. It seems to be a nice stretch to release some of the tension there, but it hurts bad as well.

Im kind of curious about the MRI though.. I hope they pay good attention to whats going on there!

 

[applewine]

I don't know if they included T1 and T2. I thought they were scanning all of the cervical bones, including the brainstem.

My earliest treatment was for TMJ and I paid $13,000 and then backed out when I discovered the treatment was not based on a valid diagnosis and insurance paid for about $300 and refused to tell me up front if it would be covered or not like they are required to do. So, I lost about $12,000 on that.

What kind of doctor specialist is giving you the trigger point injections? Is it a physiatrist? Like I said I saw a physiatrist and he just wanted to prescribe Lyrica and no trigger point injections. I saw another physiatrist and she said she didn't have her trigger point book and also said she suggest I see another physiatrist for some X-ray and prescribed a muscle relaxant. I also saw a neurologist who specializes and is well noted in trigger point books and he just wanted to prescribe Lyrica also. That was this guy: http://www.painpoints.com/about/biographies/gerwin.html
And he wrote this book: http://www.amazon.com/Muscle-Pain-Diagnosis-Siegfried-Mense/dp/3642054676/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1408768610&sr=8-3&keywords=gerwin trigger points

Dr. Gerwin also appears in the "bible" of trigger points which are the books I own by Travel and Simmons "Myofascial Pain and Dysfunction: The Trigger Point Manual" These are big red hardcover books. This book: http://www.amazon.com/dp/0683083635/?tag=tinntalk-20

As I said though this neurologist who supposedly is a world expert and is in the books on treatment with injecting with lidocaine just wanted to prescribe me Lyrica. I also went to Johns Hopkins hospital which is a big center of medical expertise and all they did was one test and discharge me. They said I could see Dr. Gerwin which was at the hospital, but if I wanted to see him for trigger points I would have to see him at his private practice and pay out of pocket.

As I said the physical therapists did dry needling as they are not allowed to inject drugs like lidocaine. I saw two physical therapists which are supposed to be very good with dry needling. One even wrote in his profile that he was the creator of a treatment plan for TMD trigger points for the whole training company. He was not good though because he did not work with me and was very intimidated in dealing with me. He would not search for the trigger points and didn't like me talking and was always trying to hurry me up. That was the one paid mostly by insurance. That was this guy: http://www.kinetacore.com/physical-therapy/Nelson-Min-PT-MS-ATC/page234.html

The other one was probably much more skilled and I paid her without insurance and she was nice and took her time. However, she believed she could feel the trigger points. I believe this is incorrect and you have to use the feedback of the patient to locate them by eliciting a referral pattern and trial and error through an agile process. This takes time and requires both interaction as well as knowledge of common referral patterns and an understanding that all referrals are documented as this is not possible. Even if you do all that it may still not work ever, who knows. Referrals can overlap and be abnormal in some people as well. That was this one: http://www.bethesdaphysiocare.com/about/bio_finnegan.html

The third physical therapist was certified for manual / hand based trigger point therapy as I saw on his profile after searching for a "PT" with "CMTPT" with his credentials, but when I saw him he said he would not do any physical trigger points therapy, only dry needle. That was this guy: http://www.kinetacore.com/physical-therapy/Tamer-S-Issa-PT-DPT-OCS/page231.html The "CMTPT" is for physical hands on. He said I should see a massage therapist as it would cost less. I said they don't know medical stuff and it would cost more anyway because massage therapy is not a recognized insurance credential so if the PT does the exact same procedure it is covered, but not a massage therapist.

This is all over a period of years. I've also seen one CMTPT certified massage therapist who did some treatment and then suggested I see a chiropractor she gave me and a doctor. The chiropractor did a long evaluation and then said "It is all in your head, that will be $100 please". The doctor she sent me to did a test using an invalid test for Lyme disease and said I had it. I then felt I needed to pursue that and found the lyme disease organization doctor referral and went to one and he treated me for 6 months with many dangerous antibiotics and then tried to convince me I had an incurable infectious disease and I had to keep paying him or I would die. I had to pay all out of pocket too.

I would suggest against Botox highly. It is bad for muscles and you need them healthy for healing. It is not recommended for trigger points. You need those muscles functioning too, you don't want any atrophy. It is a neurotoxin you know, though temporary, but who knows.

I would also recommend against steroid injection as there is limit to this and I remember side effects about not getting these. I also don't think it will do anything for trigger points. I believe you want lidocaine injection, anesthetic. I will not allow steroid or Botox if I get it done. Don't even think about paralyzing muscles or steroids.

I've had this since 2006 (8 years) and been unable to get medical treatment to cure this. My doctors didn't even know about trigger points. I've probably had tends of thousands of dollars worth of medical expenditures and scans because they won't treat the trigger points or even know what they are and chasing weird symptoms. Maybe I'll go back to my primary care now that I'm in a better network of doctors and ask for a referral to a physiatrist he thinks is good or who could do trigger point injections.

The NUCCA chiropractor did an "adjustment" today. He gave me instructions on stretches and said to use the lacrosse ball for the trigger points in my back. His theory is that if you fix the neck then you can do trigger point therapy and it won't keep coming back. I've tried trigger point therapy before using pressure and they always come back and I've never gotten my T type symptoms to go away or all symptoms.

 

[Mr. Cartman]

I don't know if they included T1 and T2. I thought they were scanning all of the cervical bones, including the brainstem.

My earliest treatment was for TMJ and I paid $13,000 and then backed out and insurance paid for about $300 and refused to tell me up front if it would be o

What kind of doctor specialist is giving you the trigger point injections? Is it a physiatrist? Like I said I saw a physiatrist and he just wanted to prescribe Lyrica and no trigger point injections. I saw another physiatrist and she said she didn't have her trigger point book and also said she suggest I see another physiatrist for some X-ray and prescribed a muscle relaxant. I also saw a neurologist who specializes and is well noted in trigger point books and he just wanted to prescribe Lyrica also. That was this guy: http://www.painpoints.com/about/biographies/gerwin.html
And he wrote this book: http://www.amazon.com/Muscle-Pain-Diagnosis-Siegfried-Mense/dp/3642054676/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1408768610&sr=8-3&keywords=gerwin trigger points

Dr. Gerwin also appears in the "bible" of trigger points which are the books I own by Travel and Simmons "Myofascial Pain and Dysfunction: The Trigger Point Manual" These are big red hardcover books. This book: http://www.amazon.com/dp/0683083635/?tag=tinntalk-20

As I said though this neurologist who supposedly is a world expert and is in the books on treatment with injecting with lidocaine just wanted to prescribe me Lyrica. I also went to Johns Hopkins hospital which is a big center of medical expertise and all they did was one test and discharge me. They said I could see Dr. Gerwin which was at the hospital, but if I wanted to see him for trigger points I would have to see him at his private practice and pay out of pocket.

As I said the physical therapists did dry needling as they are not allowed to inject drugs like lidocaine. I saw two physical therapists which are supposed to be very good with dry needling. One even wrote in his profile that he was the creator of a treatment plan for TMD trigger points for the whole training company. He was not good though because he did not work with me and was very intimidated in dealing with me. He would not search for the trigger points and didn't like me talking and was always trying to hurry me up. That was the one paid mostly by insurance. That was this guy: http://www.kinetacore.com/physical-therapy/Nelson-Min-PT-MS-ATC/page234.html

The other one was probably much more skilled and I paid her without insurance and she was nice and took her time. However, she believed she could feel the trigger points. I believe this is incorrect and you have to use the feedback of the patient to locate them by eliciting a referral pattern and trial and error through an agile process. This takes time and requires both interaction as well as knowledge of common referral patterns and an understanding that all referrals are documented as this is not possible. Even if you do all that it may still not work ever, who knows. Referrals can overlap and be abnormal in some people as well. That was this one: http://www.bethesdaphysiocare.com/about/bio_finnegan.html

The third physical therapist was certified for manual / hand based trigger point therapy as I saw on his profile after searching for a "PT" with "CMTPT" with his credentials, but when I saw him he said he would not do any physical trigger points therapy, only dry needle. That was this guy: http://www.kinetacore.com/physical-therapy/Tamer-S-Issa-PT-DPT-OCS/page231.html The "CMTPT" is for physical hands on. He said I should see a massage therapist as it would cost less. I said they don't know medical stuff and it would cost more anyway because massage therapy is not a recognized insurance credential so if the PT does the exact same procedure it is covered, but not a massage therapist.

This is all over a period of years. I've also seen one CMTPT certified massage therapist who did some treatment and then suggested I see a chiropractor she gave me and a doctor. The chiropractor did a long evaluation and then said "It is all in your head, that will be $100 please". The doctor she sent me to did a test using an invalid test for Lyme disease and said I had it. I then felt I needed to pursue that and found the lyme disease organization doctor referral and went to one and he treated me for 6 months with many dangerous antibiotics and then tried to convince me I had an incurable infectious disease and I had to keep paying him or I would die. I had to pay all out of pocket too.

I would suggest against Botox highly. It is bad for muscles and you need them healthy for healing. It is not recommended for trigger points. You need those muscles functioning too, you don't want any atrophy. It is a neurotoxin you know, though temporary, but who knows.

I would also recommend against steroid injection as there is limit to this and I remember side effects about not getting these. I also don't think it will do anything for trigger points. I believe you want lidocaine injection, anesthetic. I will not allow steroid or Botox if I get it done. Don't even think about paralyzing muscles or steroids.

I've had this since 2006 (8 years) and been unable to get medical treatment to cure this. My doctors didn't even know about trigger points. I've probably had tends of thousands of dollars worth of medical expenditures and scans because they won't treat the trigger points or even know what they are and chasing weird symptoms. Maybe I'll go back to my primary care now that I'm in a better network of doctors and ask for a referral to a physiatrist he thinks is good or who could do trigger point injections.

The NUCCA chiropractor did an "adjustment" today. He gave me instructions on stretches and said to use the lacrosse ball for the trigger points in my back. His theory is that if you fix the neck then you can do trigger point therapy and it won't keep coming back. I've tried trigger point therapy before using pressure and they always come back and I've never gotten my T type symptoms to go away or all symptoms.

Wow, so much back and forth and none of them would inject anesthetic.. The guy I talked to is currently working as a general practitioner (GP) and he said that triggerpoint injections are very common here and pretty much every GP does it. I asked my primary care doctor (GP) as well, and I just realized that he does it as well. Both said that they have had great results with triggerpoint injections (as long as the problem is triggerpoint related).

Im kind of curious if theres something to this painful spot between our shoulder blades (T1) though, as I find it quite interesting that you, me, Sjtof and chronicburn have this. It could be muscular as well though, so I will have to wait for the MRI report before I would know what to make of that.

In my case, I do suspect that its all about the neck / shoulder / upper back area, and whatever is up with the jaw is more or less a secondary symptom of the neck.

 

[applewine]

This is crazy. Trigger points were discovered in America. I've been to multiple physiatrists who wouldn't touch me. They are doctors of physical medicine and all they can do is use a prescription pen. They specialize in muscles and one I saw had the same medical text books as me, but said she left it at home. She said she couldn't do anything without them and of course I still had to pay for the visit. I've been to a massage a therapist who worked with the discoverer of trigger points who was telling me to stretch and was not working the trigger points well and sent me to a bad doctor and bad chiropractor who just took my money with fake service.

I went to a neurologist who is renowned in the primary medical literature on trigger points who wouldn't even touch me and just wanted to write a prescription. He is the co-author in the medical book on the discovery of trigger points. These are the bibles on trigger points. They document everything. He should know this more than anyone. In order to even let me see him the hospital said I had to see him at his private practice if I wanted to discuss trigger points. If I want to see him again it is a two month wait and probably worthless. He didn't do anything.
Read this page at the neurologists website and you should know he would be a super expert on trigge rpoins: http://www.painpoints.com/services/painmgmt_myofascial.html

If you know what the "red books" are on trigger points they are the primary literature on the subject by the discoverer and my neurologist I went to was the co-author. Maybe I'll go back, but honestly I'm so tired of seeing people and being disappointed when they are supposed to be able to help and they never turn out to be what they are supposed to be. It is like some strange movie where people's identities are being changed.

How could you general practitioner know where to inject you? Wouldn't they have to study trigger points, referrals and know about all of that? I've been to the "world experts" and they couldn't or wouldn't even do it. I've been to doctors of "physical medicine", which are called physiatrists and they wouldn't do anything physical on me, just offer a prescription for Lyrica which I declined.

This is nonsense and such a scam. I don't want to do injections if they may hurt me, but seriously this is nonsense.

Trigger points are not easy to find all the time. I've got a vague feeling of pain in my whole right hip, lower back, leg groin area. Trigger points are tiny, so how do you know where to inject for that? There are many refer all patterns that could cause that and many places within those referral patterns the trigger point could be, and it could be multiple working together in multiple places. See how time consuming and complex? It could take a doctor working with you all day for many days to work it all out maybe, unless they are very good.

I think the doctors have realized that since the cost of their services are regulated that they can't charge more for curing people so where is in the incentive to cure people? They get paid for an office visit whether they do anything or note. Also prescribing a drug is easy and they don't have to know anatomy or work closely with a patient or do any complex physical examination which is time consuming.

Where is the incentive for a good doctor to learn more since he gets paid the same as the doctor who doesn't know something. The best doctors don't get paid more. Then you have the doctors who work outside the insurance regulated market. They could charge more to cure you, but often the people attracted to that area are the scam artists that charge extreme dollar for services which are totally unfounded like the TMD treatments or use fake tests.

 

[Sound Wave]

PTs here in Finland are instructed not to do TP injections / dry needling of the SCM muscle, because it's so close to neck arteries. This is a good caution imho - you DO NOT want to have somebody needling you close to your arteries if he/she is not experienced.

I have had three dry needling treatments of TPs around face, neck and shoulders. Two sessions HURT LIKE HELL. In hindsight, it was probably because she used thicker acupuncture needles than the other one. So ask for quality needles if you can. By far the most painful TP / acupuncture spot was the one between a thumb and the forefinger. Wow, what a pain. These spots can be omitted though when treating the upper body and I would do that if I were to have dryneedling done again.

 

[Mr. Cartman]

This is crazy. Trigger points were discovered in America. I've been to multiple physiatrists who wouldn't touch me. They are doctors of physical medicine and all they can do is use a prescription pen. They specialize in muscles and one I saw had the same medical text books as me, but said she left it at home. She said she couldn't do anything without them and of course I still had to pay for the visit. I've been to a massage a therapist who worked with the discoverer of trigger points who was telling me to stretch and was not working the trigger points well and sent me to a bad doctor and bad chiropractor who just took my money with fake service.

I went to a neurologist who is renowned in the primary medical literature on trigger points who wouldn't even touch me and just wanted to write a prescription. He is the co-author in the medical book on the discovery of trigger points. These are the bibles on trigger points. They document everything. He should know this more than anyone. In order to even let me see him the hospital said I had to see him at his private practice if I wanted to discuss trigger points. If I want to see him again it is a two month wait and probably worthless. He didn't do anything.
Read this page at the neurologists website and you should know he would be a super expert on trigge rpoins: http://www.painpoints.com/services/painmgmt_myofascial.html

If you know what the "red books" are on trigger points they are the primary literature on the subject by the discoverer and my neurologist I went to was the co-author. Maybe I'll go back, but honestly I'm so tired of seeing people and being disappointed when they are supposed to be able to help and they never turn out to be what they are supposed to be. It is like some strange movie where people's identities are being changed.

How could you general practitioner know where to inject you? Wouldn't they have to study trigger points, referrals and know about all of that? I've been to the "world experts" and they couldn't or wouldn't even do it. I've been to doctors of "physical medicine", which are called physiatrists and they wouldn't do anything physical on me, just offer a prescription for Lyrica which I declined.

This is nonsense and such a scam. I don't want to do injections if they may hurt me, but seriously this is nonsense.

Trigger points are not easy to find all the time. I've got a vague feeling of pain in my whole right hip, lower back, leg groin area. Trigger points are tiny, so how do you know where to inject for that? There are many refer all patterns that could cause that and many places within those referral patterns the trigger point could be, and it could be multiple working together in multiple places. See how time consuming and complex? It could take a doctor working with you all day for many days to work it all out maybe, unless they are very good.

I think the doctors have realized that since the cost of their services are regulated that they can't charge more for curing people so where is in the incentive to cure people? They get paid for an office visit whether they do anything or note. Also prescribing a drug is easy and they don't have to know anatomy or work closely with a patient or do any complex physical examination which is time consuming.

Where is the incentive for a good doctor to learn more since he gets paid the same as the doctor who doesn't know something. The best doctors don't get paid more. Then you have the doctors who work outside the insurance regulated market. They could charge more to cure you, but often the people attracted to that area are the scam artists that charge extreme dollar for services which are totally unfounded like the TMD treatments or use fake tests.

Thats weird man. I would think that trigger point injections would be prettty common in the US..

When I had my arteries scanned using ultrasound, this guy pointed out a few muscle knots.. He just scanned around on my neck and said, "oh, there you have a pretty large muscle knot.. And oh.. another one.. And theres one.. .." until he said that the walls of my arteries and veins are in great shape, and theres no sign of inflammation. I was looking at the screen while he was doing it, and I could clearly see those lumps he was referring to. So it could be that ultrasound is able to point out some of the muscle knots. It seems like doctors here are doing this at a regular basis, and that they know what they are doing (for the most part).

It will probably be a little time consuming to locate the right spots (if its TP related), but Im not in a hurry
I have to wait for the MRI report as well, and probably do some nerve firing imaging / tests too before I try the TP injections.

 

[Mr. Cartman]

PTs here in Finland are instructed not to do TP injections / dry needling of the SCM muscle, because it's so close to neck arteries. This is a good caution imho - you DO NOT want to have somebody needling you close to your arteries if he/she is not experienced.

I have had three dry needling treatments of TPs around face, neck and shoulders. Two sessions HURT LIKE HELL. In hindsight, it was probably because she used thicker acupuncture needles than the other one. So ask for quality needles if you can. By far the most painful TP / acupuncture spot was the one between a thumb and the forefinger. Wow, what a pain. These spots can be omitted though when treating the upper body and I would do that if I were to have dryneedling done again.

Did you have any luck with the dry needling? I didnt find it very useful at all.. It felt like it did release some of the tension for a few hours or so.. (or at least that something did happen), but I cant say that Im sold to the concept.

Its going to be interesting to see what happens when they are injected with anesthetic though..

 

[Sound Wave]

No, didn't help. I have had much better results from regular PT / massage.

 

[applewine]

I did some checking and procaine may be preferential to lidocaine. Procaine may be shorter acting and is thus healthier somehow. Also, I'm reading reports of clinics using preservative free procaine. Preservative free procaine may be the best option. http://www.optimumclinic.ca/blog/trigger-point-injections-what-are-they/

Further research talks about something called "neural therapy" using these anesthetics. I also found some woman who received "neural therapy" and acquired some condition the doctor said was mercury poisoning. It was explained that somehow the injections caused mercury to be released that was stored. Who knows. She then received a chelator called DMPS which caused another condition. http://www.dmpsbackfire.com/detox/default.shtml

This site also mentions that "What is known is that the "caines" (novocaine, lidocaine, procaine, etc.) are broken down in the body into "anilines".Studies have found anilines to be "aggressive carcinogens".So you want to use as little novocaine as you need in the dentist's office, and look with a healthy suspicion at the use of procaine injections."

I wonder about that or if you need to worry about that. Obviously dry needling or acupuncture don't have that. Does studies have shown dry needling to be just as effective. Also, studies have shown limited results from either lidocaine or dry needling, so who knows.

Have you ever considered acupuncture? I wonder if an acupuncturist would be better than a physical therapist doing dry needling. I haven't seen one because I figured not, but who knows.

Also, I could see the physical therapist that the orofacial pain specialist gave me the card of. He said I didn't have a a TMJ problem, that I had trigger points referring to that area from lower down and showed me a chart in his office which I knew all too well.

 

[applewine]

PTs here in Finland are instructed not to do TP injections / dry needling of the SCM muscle, because it's so close to neck arteries. This is a good caution imho - you DO NOT want to have somebody needling you close to your arteries if he/she is not experienced.

I have had three dry needling treatments of TPs around face, neck and shoulders. Two sessions HURT LIKE HELL. In hindsight, it was probably because she used thicker acupuncture needles than the other one. So ask for quality needles if you can. By far the most painful TP / acupuncture spot was the one between a thumb and the forefinger. Wow, what a pain. These spots can be omitted though when treating the upper body and I would do that if I were to have dryneedling done again.

I had my SCM dry needled by two physical therapist. It was worthless I think because they have to be so careful that they can't target the spot you need. Also the will do the sternal branch which is easier to get to and safe, but the problem is with the clavicular branch which is deeper.

This is why I concluded that a good massage therapist who really knows trigger points would be better for many trigger points than a needle if that is the only tool they have because you simply can't access many trigger points safely with a needle. Also, you can't search for trigger points with a needle easily like you can with your hands. You can search with your hands first and ask the patient what they feel to find them and then use the needle, but people who use needles tend to not do that even if they say they will.

 

[applewine]

This woman practices manual trigger point therapy in florida under a massage therapist license. I believe she is probably very good. http://www.julstro.com/pain-free-athlete-clinic-in-cary-nc/

She makes a lot of "self treatment" literature to buy, and I got one of her documents a while back, but honestly even self treatment I think is too hard even though she says it is easy. The problem with find a good trigger pints massage therapist is that you have to travel very far to get to one I think. I don't know if there is one near me that is actually good.

There are two massage therapist near me with the CMTPT certification. One is who sent me to the bad doctor and chiropractor after basically failing to treat me. The other is a person who learned under the first one and says he wants to find the "why" of the pain. I would think this could be good, but honestly I suspect it is because he can't treat well. He wants to find things like saying it is your chair, desk, pillow, foot length and stuff like that. The first visit he does not treat at all and just tells you about stuff like that for $250 I think.

I could give him a try and almost saw him before, but who knows. I'm doing the NUCCA thing right now and supposed to do self stretches and trigger point treatment treatment with a tennis ball under the chiropractors instruction to do so at home.

 

[Sound Wave]

Sorry for double posting, but a reminder about this Finnish doctor's thesis about TP lidocaine treatment + videos about it. I went to see her some months ago and wrote about it elsewhere here. Note also how she uses cold spray and warm cloth rapidly together. This is explained in detail in her thesis.

http://www.uta.fi/kirjasto/vaitokset/2000/200090.html

 

[Mr. Cartman]

I did some checking and procaine may be preferential to lidocaine. Procaine may be shorter acting and is thus healthier somehow. Also, I'm reading reports of clinics using preservative free procaine. Preservative free procaine may be the best option. http://www.optimumclinic.ca/blog/trigger-point-injections-what-are-they/

Further research talks about something called "neural therapy" using these anesthetics. I also found some woman who received "neural therapy" and acquired some condition the doctor said was mercury poisoning. It was explained that somehow the injections caused mercury to be released that was stored. Who knows. She then received a chelator called DMPS which caused another condition. http://www.dmpsbackfire.com/detox/default.shtml

This site also mentions that "What is known is that the "caines" (novocaine, lidocaine, procaine, etc.) are broken down in the body into "anilines".Studies have found anilines to be "aggressive carcinogens".So you want to use as little novocaine as you need in the dentist's office, and look with a healthy suspicion at the use of procaine injections."

I wonder about that or if you need to worry about that. Obviously dry needling or acupuncture don't have that. Does studies have shown dry needling to be just as effective. Also, studies have shown limited results from either lidocaine or dry needling, so who knows.

Have you ever considered acupuncture? I wonder if an acupuncturist would be better than a physical therapist doing dry needling. I haven't seen one because I figured not, but who knows.

Also, I could see the physical therapist that the orofacial pain specialist gave me the card of. He said I didn't have a a TMJ problem, that I had trigger points referring to that area from lower down and showed me a chart in his office which I knew all too well.

I dont know why I was not alerted by your posts (as Im watching this thread), but I accidently stumbled upon it now.

Thats some great information you have there.. I can pretty much decide myself what anesthetic I want to have injected (to a certain limit of course) so Im definitely going to do a little reserach as well

I have tried acupuncture, but cant say I got anything out of it.
Did you try it out?

I had MRI done of my neck and upper back today though, and they said that I will have the results in about a week.
It was done at a private clinic, and it seemed to be pretty high-tech and it was very fast but it made a lot of noise. My earplugs fell out while I was lying there, and it literally felt like someone was slamming a slegdehammer next to my ears

But the sound had no effect on my tinnitus at all..

Throat and jaw is up next month Im going to make sure those earplugs dont fall out this time

@chronicburn

 

[Mr. Cartman]

Sorry for double posting, but a reminder about this Finnish doctor's thesis about TP lidocaine treatment + videos about it. I went to see her some months ago and wrote about it elsewhere here. Note also how she uses cold spray and warm cloth rapidly together. This is explained in detail in her thesis.

http://www.uta.fi/kirjasto/vaitokset/2000/200090.html

Yup

Did you have lidocaine injected?

 

[applewine]

She mentioned the spray and stretch with vapocoolant. That is what the big red books on trigger points talk about along with anesthetic injection. I went to a physical therapist once (one not listed before) who said that they don't do spray and stretch anymore. The spray is supposed to distract the body or reflex somehow to allow it to stretch. It is some kind of reaction you can't control.

I remember seeing that video on this thread much earlier. I think I need a doctor like that. It is a little scary to see a needle going in the neck there though. Also, I have no idea how they know where to inject in the muscle or which muscle. Trigger points are small and you can't feel where it is. You just feel a big dull ache all over and you know there is a trigger point somewhere above or below that pain that is causing it. Sometimes the pain is where the trigger point is but often it is not or the pain is so diffuse you can't pin-point the pain even if you were lucky enough to have the pain where the trigger point is. Trigger points refer pain.

An interesting thing is you will also see references in some book so "skin trigger points". The big red books mention this but never talk about what it is. Perhaps this is something I have experienced all my life where I will scratch a part of my body and with every scratch of my hand I will feel a sharp pin sized sensation on my skin in another part of my body. It is perfectly timed and correlates with each scratch of the hand. I believe these are skin trigger points. The spinal / nervous system is linking the sensory input from these two spots in the brain, when they are actually not connected.\

I have never had treatment from an acupuncturist, just from a physical therapist dry needles.

 

[applewine]

Sorry for double posting, but a reminder about this Finnish doctor's thesis about TP lidocaine treatment + videos about it. I went to see her some months ago and wrote about it elsewhere here. Note also how she uses cold spray and warm cloth rapidly together. This is explained in detail in her thesis.

http://www.uta.fi/kirjasto/vaitokset/2000/200090.html

@Sound Wave
@Mr. Cartman
So you went to see her, then what happened? What was your treatment and it didn't work or you need more?

I cannot read her language. I looked at that link. I also pasted her name into google and found this page, which I cannot read either: http://personal.fimnet.fi/laaketiede/hanski.tapiovaara/tinnitus.htm

She appears to be an "audiologist". In the USA that name is not a physician, they just test hearing. She may be some kind of ENT doctor or perhaps what we call a neuro-otologist here in the USA, which are rare compared to an Ear Nose and Throat (ENT) doctor.

Maybe that is why she deals with tinnitus or has research on that. That link I provides shows a lot of pictures which look like all sorts of nervous systems of the upper cervical area that I have heard are involved in tinnitus.

Also of note is if you know about the "Local twitch response" from needling they say that is the significant indicator whether using dry or injection technique. I can often just pull / pince / pluck and hold a muscle group like my upper shoulder and it will start jumping all over the place. These are local twitch responses going crazy. After pulling and holding all the "jumps" will be out of the muscle and it will feel a little more relaxed. My neck was bothering me a lot an hour ago and I just reached up there and pulled and now my neck does not feel as bad, but there are other muscles involved.

Am I the only one who gets weird random burning and water sensations all over? I especially tend to get water sensations in my legs or feet.

 

[Sound Wave]

I wrote about my visit into this thread: https://www.tinnitustalk.com/threads/trigger-point-injection-treatment-for-tinnitus.213/#post-1014

She is a proper and very experienced ENT doctor, not just an audiologist. Actually the day I visited here, she had just come back from New Zealand where she attended the annual T conference. She's been going to those for decades + she has T herself.

@applewine, you can feel a TP with your fingers, but you need to be very experienced in palpation techniques. Related to TPs is fascia, i.e. layer of fibrous tissue in muscles. My PT is educating herself on fascia manipulation and it feels very similar to TP palpation.

 

[Mr. Cartman]

@applewine
@Sound Wave

I bought a cheap ultrasound device just out of curiosity. I didnt expect anything out of it, but I gave it a try.
As soon as put it on my back at full power something really odd happened. When I applied it in certain location of my back, neck and shoulders I would get this intense buzz in my brain / ears. Its definitely nothing Im just imagining because it is very prominant and it has a feel to it. The apparatus itself doesnt produce any noticeable, hearable sound. It seems like there is a border as to where this happens. I have attached an image of where I can use it in order to get this insane buzz in my brain / ears. If I use the device outside those borders I dont notice anything.

At first I thought it was bone conduction of vibrations or something, but it happens even with a slight skin touch.

I have no idea if this is normal in all people, but I found this odd!? And whats even more odd is that this electrical buzz fades a bit down if I retract my neck. The buzz seems to have the same properties as my tinnitus, just that its more prominent and its located inside my brain and ears and has a physical touch to it. Like someone is snapping thousands of tiny strings in my head..

It hasnt done anything regarding the original tinnitus sound itself though (used it for like 20 minutes as of yesterday). But this low-to medium pitched buzz happens every time I use the device in this area.

Maybe its normal.. No idea..

 

[Sound Wave]

Interesting. Can you a link to your ultrasound device?

 

[Mr. Cartman]

Interesting. Can you a link to your ultrasound device?

My listing has been removed, but I think its exactly similar to this: http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-1Mhz-Fa...Beauty-Massager-Pain-Therapy-3y-/321484131932

The link above was the cheapest 1Mhz ultrasound device I could find.

Dont expect it do do anything regarding your T though, I just found the stuff I wrote in my previous post to be very odd.
Just curious if this is something everyone would experience, or if its just limited to certain types of T.

 

[Sound Wave]

Aah, it's one of these ultrasounds. I thought it would be one those where you can see inside your body. Those could be useful in locating e.g. trigger points. Lets keep experimenting!

 

[Mr. Cartman]

Aah, it's one of these ultrasounds. I thought it would be one those where you can see inside your body. Those could be useful in locating e.g. trigger points. Lets keep experimenting!

I know someone who has that kind of ultrasound, I might talk to him about this stuff

I did it again now, and the same thing happens.. What I find kind of creepy is that the brain / ear sound remains for half a second after I turn off the device. And it really seems like there is a connection between the intensity of the buzz and the painfulness of the spot Im applying the device to.. Like the tender spots are able to conduct more sound to my brain.. Its just weird If I tense the muscles of my neck and back while using the device, the buzz becomes pretty insane, to the point that Im a little skeptical of using it..

 

[applewine]

I wrote about my visit into this thread: https://www.tinnitustalk.com/threads/trigger-point-injection-treatment-for-tinnitus.213/#post-1014

She is a proper and very experienced ENT doctor, not just an audiologist. Actually the day I visited here, she had just come back from New Zealand where she attended the annual T conference. She's been going to those for decades + she has T herself.

@applewine, you can feel a TP with your fingers, but you need to be very experienced in palpation techniques. Related to TPs is fascia, i.e. layer of fibrous tissue in muscles. My PT is educating herself on fascia manipulation and it feels very similar to TP palpation.

I heard her say 20 years too. I wasn't sure if she meant the same patient has been coming back for 20 years over and over or if she meant she has been practicing this treatment on people for 20 years with success.

I'm surprised you didn't get the injections or try it. I also remember something about a special gauge of needle being best. It may be mentioned in the trigger point manual.

 

[applewine]

@applewine
@Sound Wave

I bought a cheap ultrasound device just out of curiosity. I didnt expect anything out of it, but I gave it a try.
As soon as put it on my back at full power something really odd happened. When I applied it in certain location of my back, neck and shoulders I would get this intense buzz in my brain / ears. Its definitely nothing Im just imagining because it is very prominant and it has a feel to it. The apparatus itself doesnt produce any noticeable, hearable sound. It seems like there is a border as to where this happens. I have attached an image of where I can use it in order to get this insane buzz in my brain / ears. If I use the device outside those borders I dont notice anything.

View attachment 2711

At first I thought it was bone conduction of vibrations or something, but it happens even with a slight skin touch.

I have no idea if this is normal in all people, but I found this odd!? And whats even more odd is that this electrical buzz fades a bit down if I retract my neck. The buzz seems to have the same properties as my tinnitus, just that its more prominent and its located inside my brain and ears and has a physical touch to it. Like someone is snapping thousands of tiny strings in my head..

It hasnt done anything regarding the original tinnitus sound itself though (used it for like 20 minutes as of yesterday). But this low-to medium pitched buzz happens every time I use the device in this area.

Maybe its normal.. No idea..

It looks like that is the lower, middle and upper trapezius. The lower trapezius has a trigger point area I have mentioned here before called "the joker". The joker is located between the shoulder blades and is called such because it can trigger the trigger points further up near the head and cause head pain. http://myemail.constantcontact.com/...ache-.html?soid=1101121545271&aid=F4kTfHC2oo4