Christian78
Member
- Dec 17, 2013
- 965
- Tinnitus Since
- (Sep 2013)
- Cause of Tinnitus
- progressive tinnitus, time of expiring in next 3-6 months
Tinnitus, TMJ, Headaches, Neck Pain, Facial Pain, etc. — Possible Treatment
- Thread starter erik
- Start date
Member- Apr 28, 2014
- 272
- Tinnitus Since
- 2008
- Cause of Tinnitus
- ME/CFS, Dysautonomia
@applewine
Its some serious interesting information you have there indeed! Thanks for sharing!
Im going to read through it.
Did you have a look at the DVDs you bought yet?
@Mr. Cartman I just got notification that the DVD's have shipped. It will probably be a while until I get them and can review them.
- Apr 28, 2014
- 272
- Tinnitus Since
- 2008
- Cause of Tinnitus
- ME/CFS, Dysautonomia
@Mr. Cartman I had another idea. Trigger points have a much lower ph than surrounding tissue. So, why not hyperventilate while applying pressure to the trigger point?
This will trigger respiratory alkalosis. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Respiratory_alkalosis
Alkaloid is the opposite of low ph (acid).
You should press for 60 seconds while hyperventilating and then release. You can continue to hyperventilate if you want. When the new blood flushes in it should be more alkaloid than normal, so that may help! I don't know if the acidity is perpetuating the problem as a causal factor, positive feedback, or if it is purely a byproduct, but it is worth a try.
Actually, I just found a direct connection to ph and ACh !
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3440564/
"Furthermore, a low pH downregulates acetylcholinesterase (AChE), increases the efficacy of acetylcholine (ACh), and maintains the sarcomere (super-) contraction."
It looks like Jan Dommerholt wrote it. I've met him and been treated by him. He does dry needling, not manual pressure.
AChE is the enzyme that breaks down ACh.
Wouldn't it be cool if hyperventilating was the missing component for trigger point treatment that has been missing all these decades?
A note on breathing though. Breath with your belly / diaphram. You should be pushing your belling out when you breath, not your chest. The reason you want to do this is because chest breathing activates the scalene muscles. Chronic hyperventilation is actually listed as a cause of scalene trigger points. In general whenever doing therapeutic breathing it should be from the belly for relaxation.
This will trigger respiratory alkalosis. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Respiratory_alkalosis
Alkaloid is the opposite of low ph (acid).
You should press for 60 seconds while hyperventilating and then release. You can continue to hyperventilate if you want. When the new blood flushes in it should be more alkaloid than normal, so that may help! I don't know if the acidity is perpetuating the problem as a causal factor, positive feedback, or if it is purely a byproduct, but it is worth a try.
Actually, I just found a direct connection to ph and ACh !
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3440564/
"Furthermore, a low pH downregulates acetylcholinesterase (AChE), increases the efficacy of acetylcholine (ACh), and maintains the sarcomere (super-) contraction."
It looks like Jan Dommerholt wrote it. I've met him and been treated by him. He does dry needling, not manual pressure.
AChE is the enzyme that breaks down ACh.
Wouldn't it be cool if hyperventilating was the missing component for trigger point treatment that has been missing all these decades?
A note on breathing though. Breath with your belly / diaphram. You should be pushing your belling out when you breath, not your chest. The reason you want to do this is because chest breathing activates the scalene muscles. Chronic hyperventilation is actually listed as a cause of scalene trigger points. In general whenever doing therapeutic breathing it should be from the belly for relaxation.
- Apr 28, 2014
- 272
- Tinnitus Since
- 2008
- Cause of Tinnitus
- ME/CFS, Dysautonomia
@Mr. Cartman I received the Julstro DVD's. I just watched the first one, which is for the head. She mentions the Julstro technique includes holding for 60 seconds. Also, see my post above which is an idea I just had to combine hyperventilating with the 60 seconds of pressure.
- Apr 28, 2014
- 272
- Tinnitus Since
- 2008
- Cause of Tinnitus
- ME/CFS, Dysautonomia
I'm now wondering why hyperventilation increases blood ph. I did a search and a student of biology answered this question:
https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20060623105609AANm7BG
"Well, hyperventilation is the state of breathing faster or deeper (hyper) than necessary, and thereby reducing the carbon dioxide concentration of the blood below normal. This causes various symptoms such as numbness or tingling in the hands, feet and lips, lightheadedness, dizziness, headache, chest pain, slurred speech and sometimes fainting.
The reason it causes the blood pH to increase is because of the levels of carbon dioxide...carbon dioxide gets converted into bicarbonate and hydrogen ions. So basically a decrease in carbon dioxide levels in the blood will increase the pH of blood. The reason is because carbon dioxide breaks up into bicarbonate (H2CO3), which is a buffer used to maintain blood's pH. But if there are not enough carbon dioxide molecules then there will be no dissociation and therefore an increase in pH. Since pH is a measure of the activity of hydrogen ions (H+) in a solution and, therefore, its acidity or alkalinity. pH= pK+Log [HCO3-]/[H2CO3] determines the pH of blood. "
So, if you breath a lot you deplete C02 from the blood. If C02 is depleted from the blood then you deplete carbonic acid because C02 dissociates (comes apart) in solutions into carbonic acid.
The carbonic acid averages ph out to a lower ph because it is an acid, so without it the ph goes up (alkaline).
It is also interesting that hydrogen ions are mentioned, because it is my understanding that hydrogen ions are now what is believe to cause muscle soreness, not lactic acid as was thought for a long time.
I'm also finding that hydrogen ions lower the ph in muscles (more acid). As we know more acid downregulates AChE and if AChE breaks down ACh, then of course ACh will go up and if ACh goes up then muscles will contract.
http://ptjournal.apta.org/content/81/12/1897.full
"The build-up of H+ within the muscle lowers the pH"
When the muscle contracts then it blocks out the flushing of hydrogen ions and ph does not go up. Thus the ACh / ph contraction continues.
Hyperventilation may be the best approach to lowering blood ph, but it makes me wonder if there would be any other way to increase blood ph without decreasing carbon dioxide and hyperventilation which causes changes in the brain and oxygen levels.
I've read that the whole thing about diet influencing blood ph is bogus. I think the only way you can influence blood ph would be through IV.
However, I did a search on blood ph and found three buffer systems listed:
http://faculty.stcc.edu/AandP/AP/AP2pages/Units21to23/ph/buffers.htm
" A buffer is a molecule that tends to either bind or release hydrogen ions in order to maintain a particular pH"
This is really interesting because Julstro and trigger point people talk about hydrogen ions all the time, but I didn't hear them relate it to buffers and blood ph, except Jan Dommerhalt's article did.
https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20060623105609AANm7BG
"Well, hyperventilation is the state of breathing faster or deeper (hyper) than necessary, and thereby reducing the carbon dioxide concentration of the blood below normal. This causes various symptoms such as numbness or tingling in the hands, feet and lips, lightheadedness, dizziness, headache, chest pain, slurred speech and sometimes fainting.
The reason it causes the blood pH to increase is because of the levels of carbon dioxide...carbon dioxide gets converted into bicarbonate and hydrogen ions. So basically a decrease in carbon dioxide levels in the blood will increase the pH of blood. The reason is because carbon dioxide breaks up into bicarbonate (H2CO3), which is a buffer used to maintain blood's pH. But if there are not enough carbon dioxide molecules then there will be no dissociation and therefore an increase in pH. Since pH is a measure of the activity of hydrogen ions (H+) in a solution and, therefore, its acidity or alkalinity. pH= pK+Log [HCO3-]/[H2CO3] determines the pH of blood. "
So, if you breath a lot you deplete C02 from the blood. If C02 is depleted from the blood then you deplete carbonic acid because C02 dissociates (comes apart) in solutions into carbonic acid.
The carbonic acid averages ph out to a lower ph because it is an acid, so without it the ph goes up (alkaline).
It is also interesting that hydrogen ions are mentioned, because it is my understanding that hydrogen ions are now what is believe to cause muscle soreness, not lactic acid as was thought for a long time.
I'm also finding that hydrogen ions lower the ph in muscles (more acid). As we know more acid downregulates AChE and if AChE breaks down ACh, then of course ACh will go up and if ACh goes up then muscles will contract.
http://ptjournal.apta.org/content/81/12/1897.full
"The build-up of H+ within the muscle lowers the pH"
When the muscle contracts then it blocks out the flushing of hydrogen ions and ph does not go up. Thus the ACh / ph contraction continues.
Hyperventilation may be the best approach to lowering blood ph, but it makes me wonder if there would be any other way to increase blood ph without decreasing carbon dioxide and hyperventilation which causes changes in the brain and oxygen levels.
I've read that the whole thing about diet influencing blood ph is bogus. I think the only way you can influence blood ph would be through IV.
However, I did a search on blood ph and found three buffer systems listed:
http://faculty.stcc.edu/AandP/AP/AP2pages/Units21to23/ph/buffers.htm
" A buffer is a molecule that tends to either bind or release hydrogen ions in order to maintain a particular pH"
This is really interesting because Julstro and trigger point people talk about hydrogen ions all the time, but I didn't hear them relate it to buffers and blood ph, except Jan Dommerhalt's article did.
- bicarbonate buffer system (we already know this one)
- phosphate buffer system
- protein buffer system
- Aug 21, 2014
- 5,049
- Tinnitus Since
- 1999
- Cause of Tinnitus
- karma
i didn't actually take much adderall at all .... and lots of people use tons of benzos / speed, and don't have t....
I cancelled a appt. yesterday for a second opinion on TMD causing my T, but it was not filled so I rescheduled.
I didn't think I had TMD after all, but after talking to someone there about my symptoms (noise) or lack of other symptoms (no jaw pain at all) they said that you can have tinnituswithout jaw pain. So I will find out tomorrow if my head noise is directly related to my TMJ area once again, or totally inner ear or brain based. There is a $567 consultation fee so I hope I get some meaningful diagnosis.
You would think I would have my source of T identified by now, but I'm still unsure. One ENT thought there was a 99.9% chance it was my inner ear causing it, but it varies and changes ears so much I am confused. On Eriks' post on this thread they even mentioned bad posture from being in front of a computer could cause T, so you never know. Inner ear based T seems so permanent that I hate to even think of that, especially with my present high volume noise.
The doctor said i have no hearing loss but I Hear this sound in my head preferably the left side (not syringed ear) in my head. The volume doesn't change much but the tone does. So my question is, is TMD/J always related with pain? I have no pain nowhere in my jaw or face but I do know that some of my teeth are uneven. No headaches also. Do you guys know if T can still happen? My neck is so stiff though I' don't know why. I guess its all this stress from what's been happening.
- Aug 21, 2014
- 5,049
- Tinnitus Since
- 1999
- Cause of Tinnitus
- karma
If you don't have jaw problems that cause discomfort I'd be wary of a TMJ diagnosis. There are probably lots of people in the world with uneven teeth who do not have TMJ.
In my case -- my jaw can dislocate on one side, it clicks on both sides (once in a while, very painfully), and when my TMJ-related T tones are flaring up, I generally have significant pain and a feeling of fullness under the eyes and in the ear.
No pain, no ear stuffiness, no jaw clicking... doesn't sound like TMJ.
Anecdotally, IWLM's suggestion of sleeping with a rolled up towel under the neck, does turn down my ringing and also seems to deal with some of the other TMJ problems.
In my case -- my jaw can dislocate on one side, it clicks on both sides (once in a while, very painfully), and when my TMJ-related T tones are flaring up, I generally have significant pain and a feeling of fullness under the eyes and in the ear.
No pain, no ear stuffiness, no jaw clicking... doesn't sound like TMJ.
Anecdotally, IWLM's suggestion of sleeping with a rolled up towel under the neck, does turn down my ringing and also seems to deal with some of the other TMJ problems.
- Aug 21, 2014
- 5,049
- Tinnitus Since
- 1999
- Cause of Tinnitus
- karma
And one other thought on this comment... I was thinking through my ear history yesterday, and realized that when I was about 5-6 I had a series of very, very severe inner ear infections, and then when I was about 12 I remember having my first episode of "muffled, distorted hearing" that lasted for hours after some very routine (not loud) noise exposure. So, the drugs over the years probably didn't help, but I think it would be unwise to blame all my problems on drug use when I had clear damage and anatomical differences well before I started taking any of that shit.
Christian78
Member
- Dec 17, 2013
- 965
- Tinnitus Since
- (Sep 2013)
- Cause of Tinnitus
- progressive tinnitus, time of expiring in next 3-6 months
- Aug 21, 2014
- 5,049
- Tinnitus Since
- 1999
- Cause of Tinnitus
- karma
A series of infections, probably impacting both ears but the left probably got the worst. I say that because my left ear drum is visibly scarred, and my only actual hearing issues are on the left...
Beyond that, I know many people who took far more benzos and ADHD drugs than I ever did, and did not develop hearing issues as a result, so even if the drugs were a factor, they had some interaction with my particular brain/body that they do not have in most people. Yes, these drugs are considered as potential vectors for hearing/sensory issues, but the vast majority of users do not have problems.
I have the trigger point therapy workbook where the author does list points on the face for tinnitus. I plan to use it now that the buzzing has increased due to the only change I made, using CBD oil. GREAT for some things, but not for tinnitus. Did a search and sure enough.
- Apr 28, 2014
- 272
- Tinnitus Since
- 2008
- Cause of Tinnitus
- ME/CFS, Dysautonomia
I did a google search and found another page saying excessive orgasming depletes the brain of acetacholine which causes back pain. http://goo.gl/EtFum8
As we know excessive ACh is also implicated as the cause of trigger points at the motor end plate. Perhaps could the motor end plate up regulate ACh to compensate for lower ACh in the CNS? This up regulation then causes a local pathology. One may have to abstain from alcohol as well as I don't know what sort of neurotransmitter depletion or conversions could be going on or synergy.
I suggest abstaining from orgasming for 90 days as an experiment. There may also be supplements to restore ACh for greater benefit.
As we know excessive ACh is also implicated as the cause of trigger points at the motor end plate. Perhaps could the motor end plate up regulate ACh to compensate for lower ACh in the CNS? This up regulation then causes a local pathology. One may have to abstain from alcohol as well as I don't know what sort of neurotransmitter depletion or conversions could be going on or synergy.
I suggest abstaining from orgasming for 90 days as an experiment. There may also be supplements to restore ACh for greater benefit.
- Aug 21, 2014
- 5,049
- Tinnitus Since
- 1999
- Cause of Tinnitus
- karma
Haha, good luck with that! After about 10 days I turn into a 14 year old and start orgasming in my sleep
- Apr 28, 2014
- 272
- Tinnitus Since
- 2008
- Cause of Tinnitus
- ME/CFS, Dysautonomia
@linearb
That may be an exaggeration. However, even if it were the case it would likely not be a problem for the experiment. The important thing is to not preempt the process in any way.
If it occurs internally, which it will eventually, that likely will not excessively deplete ACh because this is not accelerating the the rate at which the body is already replacing and producing these neurotransmitters and creating the maximum holdable amount before release. Getting back on a purely internal regulation of these neurotransmitters is the goal and consistent with your comment and nothing to worry about.
I think you will also find an increase in mood and energy.
That may be an exaggeration. However, even if it were the case it would likely not be a problem for the experiment. The important thing is to not preempt the process in any way.
If it occurs internally, which it will eventually, that likely will not excessively deplete ACh because this is not accelerating the the rate at which the body is already replacing and producing these neurotransmitters and creating the maximum holdable amount before release. Getting back on a purely internal regulation of these neurotransmitters is the goal and consistent with your comment and nothing to worry about.
I think you will also find an increase in mood and energy.
- Aug 21, 2014
- 5,049
- Tinnitus Since
- 1999
- Cause of Tinnitus
- karma
you're probably right at least about the second part, but I'm happily married and do not envision a 3-month drought is in my short to mid term future....
I'm less sure of the first part, because regular but not excessive sex is pretty strongly correlated with me feeling awesome.
- Apr 28, 2014
- 272
- Tinnitus Since
- 2008
- Cause of Tinnitus
- ME/CFS, Dysautonomia
@Mr. Cartman For SCM treatment try pressing instead of pinching the SCM at the very top near the corner of the jaw. Try doing it more forward toward the artery, but not on top of it.
You are supposed to be pinching as high as possible on the SCM, but I have found that I can no pinch all the way up and get a pain response.
Pressing is necessary because the muscles is not accessible enough to pinch and get all of the muscle. You think you are getting it, but you are either not getting the correct division, or not enough of it.
If you I press I will get lots of pain there. Ear pain I think so, pain in temples, some kind o pain in the area.
You are supposed to be pinching as high as possible on the SCM, but I have found that I can no pinch all the way up and get a pain response.
Pressing is necessary because the muscles is not accessible enough to pinch and get all of the muscle. You think you are getting it, but you are either not getting the correct division, or not enough of it.
If you I press I will get lots of pain there. Ear pain I think so, pain in temples, some kind o pain in the area.
- Apr 28, 2014
- 272
- Tinnitus Since
- 2008
- Cause of Tinnitus
- ME/CFS, Dysautonomia
@Mr. Cartman I just had my teeth cleaned and when I was done I could not bite down on my teeth for a few hours afterward. My jaw would not go back far enough to make contact. The only teeth that would make contact were biting down onto the backs of my two front teeth.
I think this was because my mouth was open for 30 minutes for the cleaning. This is a TMD stretch as well, so it will relax those muscles. This is the kind of thing that makes me think that wherever your bite is after 30 minutes of holding your mouth open that that is where your teeth should be. I had to pull my jaw backwards and it wouldn't even go in order to make contact on my teeth. It wasn't until after eating I think that it went back to "normal".
I'm not totally sure how wide open it was during cleaning. I'm not sure if it was open all the way past the the full open "dislocation" position, or the stop that is right before that. It may have been all the way so they could see and work on my teeth, but I don't know what I do without thinking.
This bite is probably closer also to how the teeth would have been before my invisilign orthodontics and also to how they were when the orthotics were in my mouth because they go on top of the teeth as well.
I'm unsure if this is a teeth location problem. The dentist said he could make me night guard. He said that often after orthodontics they can't get the bite just right so it makes your jaw muscles, temples and neck muscles hurt!
I think this was because my mouth was open for 30 minutes for the cleaning. This is a TMD stretch as well, so it will relax those muscles. This is the kind of thing that makes me think that wherever your bite is after 30 minutes of holding your mouth open that that is where your teeth should be. I had to pull my jaw backwards and it wouldn't even go in order to make contact on my teeth. It wasn't until after eating I think that it went back to "normal".
I'm not totally sure how wide open it was during cleaning. I'm not sure if it was open all the way past the the full open "dislocation" position, or the stop that is right before that. It may have been all the way so they could see and work on my teeth, but I don't know what I do without thinking.
This bite is probably closer also to how the teeth would have been before my invisilign orthodontics and also to how they were when the orthotics were in my mouth because they go on top of the teeth as well.
I'm unsure if this is a teeth location problem. The dentist said he could make me night guard. He said that often after orthodontics they can't get the bite just right so it makes your jaw muscles, temples and neck muscles hurt!
Another status report from me. I'm working on the splenius capitus muscles together with my therapist.
So far there is still improvement, but I had a very very bad week last week on holiday in Germany. 25 min of somewhat loud restaurant music which freaked me out a lot. Just a year ago this didn't bother me at all. I went to the toilet there to flee from the music, definately going to make an appointment with the hearing protection specialist soon.
Unfortunately back from Germany I had to use the 2700khz residual inhibition again last week to calm the T down a bit. This was the first in months I had to do this. I also felt like if there was some sort of an imprint of my jaw bone under my right ear, but I did not clench at all during that day.
I had a lot of pain last week also. Not headaches but pain on the head. This was after the TMJ specialist visit, so I guess my body was trying to do some work or some more stress came out. My neck therapist said it could be the muscles attached to the first rib, so I started to do manipulations on that as well.
Sometimes it feels like stress captured into my body is coming out in waves that give headaches on day 1, nausea on day 2 and more T on day 3. Day 4 and 5 are facial pain or something else.
Today, I have a lot of itching inside my face near my ear. I think it's the lateral pterygoid muscles. I hope it's some healing, T is very low today. So still every week is different. Sometimes when I work on the neck muscles I'm very nauseous or I have tension headaches. When tension headaches appear my T is low. So it's an ongoing cycle of pain, T and more muscle work, 3 times a week now.
I'm definately not going to do the Botox. I've read that certain doses can affect swallow muscles which gives trouble. And I don't want that stuff to end up somewhere it does more harm than good.
@applewine get the bite splint. I'm very sure that if I did not get it my clenching was much more intense at night.
I still cannot thank my therapists enough. So much knowledge I got from them and so much encouragement.
I found a link which describes almost all of the muscles that I'm working on:
http://www.pain-education.com/facial-pain.html
Next monday I'm going to start with a psychologist
So far there is still improvement, but I had a very very bad week last week on holiday in Germany. 25 min of somewhat loud restaurant music which freaked me out a lot. Just a year ago this didn't bother me at all. I went to the toilet there to flee from the music, definately going to make an appointment with the hearing protection specialist soon.
Unfortunately back from Germany I had to use the 2700khz residual inhibition again last week to calm the T down a bit. This was the first in months I had to do this. I also felt like if there was some sort of an imprint of my jaw bone under my right ear, but I did not clench at all during that day.
I had a lot of pain last week also. Not headaches but pain on the head. This was after the TMJ specialist visit, so I guess my body was trying to do some work or some more stress came out. My neck therapist said it could be the muscles attached to the first rib, so I started to do manipulations on that as well.
Sometimes it feels like stress captured into my body is coming out in waves that give headaches on day 1, nausea on day 2 and more T on day 3. Day 4 and 5 are facial pain or something else.
Today, I have a lot of itching inside my face near my ear. I think it's the lateral pterygoid muscles. I hope it's some healing, T is very low today. So still every week is different. Sometimes when I work on the neck muscles I'm very nauseous or I have tension headaches. When tension headaches appear my T is low. So it's an ongoing cycle of pain, T and more muscle work, 3 times a week now.
I'm definately not going to do the Botox. I've read that certain doses can affect swallow muscles which gives trouble. And I don't want that stuff to end up somewhere it does more harm than good.
@applewine get the bite splint. I'm very sure that if I did not get it my clenching was much more intense at night.
I still cannot thank my therapists enough. So much knowledge I got from them and so much encouragement.
I found a link which describes almost all of the muscles that I'm working on:
http://www.pain-education.com/facial-pain.html
Next monday I'm going to start with a psychologist
Yes, I'm adjusting my posture and yes this is very closely related. Position of the head puts much more tension on the neck muscles which in due result pull on the facial muscles. I've experienced this myself for months.
Even putting my chin onto my body (head forward) amplified the tinnitus because neck muscles became more sore. Occipitalis muscle pain which in due result pulls on the masseter muscles which gives facial pain and the circle is round.
What did the maxillofacial surgeon said? That is one route I want to explore next.
Hi @Codaz,
The maxillofacial surgeon basically said that there is nothing skeletally wrong with me, but confirmed that my muscles are spasming. He conducted a series of tests, including a sonogram and a doppler, as well as an MRI and MRA, and found that my back right neck muscle is spasming uncontrollably, and that this is causing a residual spasm throughout my head and over my jaw. He also found significant swelling on my Temporomandibular Joint and associated muscle groups. He also confirmed that my jaw is out of alignment, but it's (again) not skeletal - it's being caused by muscle tension that is pulling the right side of my jaw further down, and tightening the left side of my jaw. Now, when I look in the mirror, I can see it -- when I open my mouth, my lower jaw isn't straight aligned with the top of my mouth; it's crooked and at a diagonal. Relatives even notice this when I point it out.
The Maxillofacial Surgeon instructed me to start using a night guard, because he suspected clenching -- not grinding -- as the cause of all of this (and probably stress, poor posture, and poor sleep as the underlying aggravators for the clenching). The night guard I am wearing is a pro form custom orthotic, which retails from surgeons and dentists for ~$600, but you can actually buy on Amazon for $75. I've been wearing it for about a week now, and inflammation in my jaw is way down. Additionally, he's told me to wear it at night all night for four consecutive weeks to see if this lowers the Tinnitus.
The Surgeon can't really help me until these standard protocols fail, and because there's little risk of permanent damage in my case, since my problem is neuromuscular, and not skeletal.
Hope this helps!
The maxillofacial surgeon basically said that there is nothing skeletally wrong with me, but confirmed that my muscles are spasming. He conducted a series of tests, including a sonogram and a doppler, as well as an MRI and MRA, and found that my back right neck muscle is spasming uncontrollably, and that this is causing a residual spasm throughout my head and over my jaw. He also found significant swelling on my Temporomandibular Joint and associated muscle groups. He also confirmed that my jaw is out of alignment, but it's (again) not skeletal - it's being caused by muscle tension that is pulling the right side of my jaw further down, and tightening the left side of my jaw. Now, when I look in the mirror, I can see it -- when I open my mouth, my lower jaw isn't straight aligned with the top of my mouth; it's crooked and at a diagonal. Relatives even notice this when I point it out.
The Maxillofacial Surgeon instructed me to start using a night guard, because he suspected clenching -- not grinding -- as the cause of all of this (and probably stress, poor posture, and poor sleep as the underlying aggravators for the clenching). The night guard I am wearing is a pro form custom orthotic, which retails from surgeons and dentists for ~$600, but you can actually buy on Amazon for $75. I've been wearing it for about a week now, and inflammation in my jaw is way down. Additionally, he's told me to wear it at night all night for four consecutive weeks to see if this lowers the Tinnitus.
The Surgeon can't really help me until these standard protocols fail, and because there's little risk of permanent damage in my case, since my problem is neuromuscular, and not skeletal.
Hope this helps!
Then I would advise you to go to a TMJ Physiotherapist or some therapist that is known with TMD / CMD disorders.
It's a very long road. I'm going now for the tenth month. Every week. A lot of facial pain in the last months and still a lot of muscle tension. T fluctuates between 80% better and 20% better. Depending on neck movement / position and stiffness and also stress.
They did say to me 10 months ago: we cannot guarentee you any result at all. But so far I have my life (partially) back were ENT's said just live with it. And they give me some mental support, which is very much needed.
This picture is 99% comparable to my situation how I am treated:
@applewine
Hi and thanks for the great the info
I havent been much online lately, but Im still trying out some stuff.
Im staying away from all kinds of computer related activity for a while
Im scheduled up for new series of MRIs with contrast. Ill let you know how it works out.
I think @Codaz is onto something here
I hope you are doing well mate
Hi and thanks for the great the info
I havent been much online lately, but Im still trying out some stuff.
Im staying away from all kinds of computer related activity for a while
Im scheduled up for new series of MRIs with contrast. Ill let you know how it works out.
I think @Codaz is onto something here
I hope you are doing well mate
Oh yeah, this week is much better than last week. Unfortunately I have more halucinations than constant T.
So crunch a plastic bag and I have more T, the constant sound although is lower. So doing nothing = low T.
The stupid thing is that I tried to pick up my master thesis again. Which means I look down onto my desk on the papers. This pulls so much on my neck muscles that I do not only feel dizzy and have some pain, but also tension and amplified T.
So I was at the neck physio's office today. I discussed it and she urged me to alter the position of my books and/or writing material and to take more breaks for my neck.
Also, I have a new excersize as homework that I should do 4 sessions of 8 repeats a day.
It looks like this photo. The band is connected to the door knob. During the excersize it pulls a lot on my shoulder / neck and eventually the facial muscles as your neck is trying to compensate for the lack of movement in shoulder muscles. So I'm not happy with the progress but I'll just follow up what these guys tell me to do.
@Nick the Swede
Did the botox injections specifically inject the temporalis muscles or in one of the nerves or how does it go?
So crunch a plastic bag and I have more T, the constant sound although is lower. So doing nothing = low T.
The stupid thing is that I tried to pick up my master thesis again. Which means I look down onto my desk on the papers. This pulls so much on my neck muscles that I do not only feel dizzy and have some pain, but also tension and amplified T.
So I was at the neck physio's office today. I discussed it and she urged me to alter the position of my books and/or writing material and to take more breaks for my neck.
Also, I have a new excersize as homework that I should do 4 sessions of 8 repeats a day.
It looks like this photo. The band is connected to the door knob. During the excersize it pulls a lot on my shoulder / neck and eventually the facial muscles as your neck is trying to compensate for the lack of movement in shoulder muscles. So I'm not happy with the progress but I'll just follow up what these guys tell me to do.
@Nick the Swede
Did the botox injections specifically inject the temporalis muscles or in one of the nerves or how does it go?
- Apr 28, 2014
- 272
- Tinnitus Since
- 2008
- Cause of Tinnitus
- ME/CFS, Dysautonomia
@Mr. Cartman @Kaelon @Codaz It has been a while. I have some new stuff to report.
I just had my teeth cleaned a week ago and after the cleaning I noticed something very interesting. I was not able to bite down on my teeth, except only make contact with the backs of the top two front teeth !
No matter how hard I tried to bit down or pull my jaw back it would just not do it! I think this is may not be new, but I had skipped the last two cleanings.
I think basically what happened is that my mouth was open for 30 minutes or whatever while the dental hygienist was cleaning my teeth. My mouth was not straining and was relaxed, but what this did is it stretched the muscles. This is actually a TMD stretch to hold the mouth open, but I don't normally perform it for 30 minutes because I have no reason to, because of drooling etc. At the dental office I had to and also the suction allows you to keep the mouth mostly open the whole time.
So, I hypothesize that if TMD is a dental problem (which I do not know) then holding the mouth open for 30 minutes would reveal the correct location for the teeth. Once you bite down after that you will only be able to bite down where your muscles will allow it without having any muscles chronically shortened and contracted.
After I tried to eat food the muscles did go back. This change happened just from holding the mouth open and not using any appliance. Essentially what I had after the stretch was the appearance of an overjet and overbite which prevented any of the teeth from making contact, except the back of the two top front teeth.
I'd be very curious if everyone could try holding their mouth open for 30 minutes like they are at the dentist a see where their muscles will let them bite down afterward.
When was the last time you all had your teeth cleaned and did you notice this afterward?
I just had my teeth cleaned a week ago and after the cleaning I noticed something very interesting. I was not able to bite down on my teeth, except only make contact with the backs of the top two front teeth !
No matter how hard I tried to bit down or pull my jaw back it would just not do it! I think this is may not be new, but I had skipped the last two cleanings.
I think basically what happened is that my mouth was open for 30 minutes or whatever while the dental hygienist was cleaning my teeth. My mouth was not straining and was relaxed, but what this did is it stretched the muscles. This is actually a TMD stretch to hold the mouth open, but I don't normally perform it for 30 minutes because I have no reason to, because of drooling etc. At the dental office I had to and also the suction allows you to keep the mouth mostly open the whole time.
So, I hypothesize that if TMD is a dental problem (which I do not know) then holding the mouth open for 30 minutes would reveal the correct location for the teeth. Once you bite down after that you will only be able to bite down where your muscles will allow it without having any muscles chronically shortened and contracted.
After I tried to eat food the muscles did go back. This change happened just from holding the mouth open and not using any appliance. Essentially what I had after the stretch was the appearance of an overjet and overbite which prevented any of the teeth from making contact, except the back of the two top front teeth.
I'd be very curious if everyone could try holding their mouth open for 30 minutes like they are at the dentist a see where their muscles will let them bite down afterward.
When was the last time you all had your teeth cleaned and did you notice this afterward?
@applewine
Yeah, it has been a while indeed
I have done the same thing, and the jaw re-alignment happened for me as well. It went back to its "original" position after eating and such.
I found that my orbital nerves and orbital muscles are in very bad shape, and when working them out it feels as if the supraorbital and supratrochlear nerve (or one of them) is about to burst. The same seems to be the case for the infraorbital nerve, zygomaticotemporal nerve and the auriculotemporal nerve.. Not sure how it became this bad, but I think it has to do with eye strain and static facial expression.. Also, the trochlear nerve is the nerve that innervates the superior oblique muscle.
From Wikipedia: "The superior oblique muscle, or obliquus oculi superior, is a fusiform muscle originating in the upper, medial side of the orbit (i.e. from beside the nose) which abducts, depresses and internally rotates the eye. It is the only extraocular muscle innervated by the trochlear nerve (the fourth cranial nerve)."
--
I did a lot of jaw exercises with resistance yesterday until my jaw muscles failed, and it set off a lot of events regarding tinnitus fluctuations.
Im going to continue the jaw and eye exersices and see what it does, and I believe that my jaw is a part of this and maybe the orbital muscles as well.
Also, thanks for sharing all the great info
Im going to limit my computer usage for a good while because I feel that it strains my eyes and muscles in the face pretty bad, but Ill chime in now and then At least its worth a shot
@Codaz
Thanks for the update and the exercise! I hope you are doing better!
Yeah, it has been a while indeed
I have done the same thing, and the jaw re-alignment happened for me as well. It went back to its "original" position after eating and such.
I found that my orbital nerves and orbital muscles are in very bad shape, and when working them out it feels as if the supraorbital and supratrochlear nerve (or one of them) is about to burst. The same seems to be the case for the infraorbital nerve, zygomaticotemporal nerve and the auriculotemporal nerve.. Not sure how it became this bad, but I think it has to do with eye strain and static facial expression.. Also, the trochlear nerve is the nerve that innervates the superior oblique muscle.
From Wikipedia: "The superior oblique muscle, or obliquus oculi superior, is a fusiform muscle originating in the upper, medial side of the orbit (i.e. from beside the nose) which abducts, depresses and internally rotates the eye. It is the only extraocular muscle innervated by the trochlear nerve (the fourth cranial nerve)."
--
I did a lot of jaw exercises with resistance yesterday until my jaw muscles failed, and it set off a lot of events regarding tinnitus fluctuations.
Im going to continue the jaw and eye exersices and see what it does, and I believe that my jaw is a part of this and maybe the orbital muscles as well.
Also, thanks for sharing all the great info
Im going to limit my computer usage for a good while because I feel that it strains my eyes and muscles in the face pretty bad, but Ill chime in now and then
At least its worth a shot @Codaz
Thanks for the update and the exercise! I hope you are doing better!
@applewine @Codaz
I forgot to tell, but I might have found something.
I started to notice that when keeping my jaw in its original position like it usually is, somehow there are muscles there that seems to automatically tense up if im stressed or whatever.. Im especially talking about the digastric, anterior neck muscles and muscles that kind of feels like as if they were attached to my ears. Not sure if its the auricularis anterior, temporalis or what, but somehow those muscles seems to tense up automatically if I dont pay attention to them, like its a dysfunctional muscle pattern that has been hardcoded into the motoric cortex, and I think whatever muscles those are, they are related to my tinnitus.
Anyways, I remember a while back that I read about someone who said he got rid of his usual concert tinnitus by wiggling his jaw, and it caught my attention.
I then moved my jaw slightly to the right and kept this position for a prolonged amount of time, and somehow, keeping the jaw in a position where its located slightly to the left or slightly to the right seems to inhibit the muscles that I found to be more or less chronic tensed up. I have no idea why, but maybe the activation of the lateral pterygoid does that?
Just thought I should share
I forgot to tell, but I might have found something.
I started to notice that when keeping my jaw in its original position like it usually is, somehow there are muscles there that seems to automatically tense up if im stressed or whatever.. Im especially talking about the digastric, anterior neck muscles and muscles that kind of feels like as if they were attached to my ears. Not sure if its the auricularis anterior, temporalis or what, but somehow those muscles seems to tense up automatically if I dont pay attention to them, like its a dysfunctional muscle pattern that has been hardcoded into the motoric cortex, and I think whatever muscles those are, they are related to my tinnitus.
Anyways, I remember a while back that I read about someone who said he got rid of his usual concert tinnitus by wiggling his jaw, and it caught my attention.
I then moved my jaw slightly to the right and kept this position for a prolonged amount of time, and somehow, keeping the jaw in a position where its located slightly to the left or slightly to the right seems to inhibit the muscles that I found to be more or less chronic tensed up. I have no idea why, but maybe the activation of the lateral pterygoid does that?
Just thought I should share
Interesting find. I went to TMJ physio again on thursday and it's definately tension that builds up during the week. Stress days it's much and much worse. If i'm pretty relaxed on therapy day she is able to push back the T for 75%.
I hope it lasts until next week. Or at least a couple of days. Neck position / posture is extremely important as well.
Wrong neck position for a day = more jaw problems. At least on me. My neck physio said that it is wrong behavior that should be unlearned. Because you do it unconciously you have to pay attention to it. Best way is to set a timer every 30 min and pay attention to your back, neck and jaw position.
I hope it lasts until next week. Or at least a couple of days. Neck position / posture is extremely important as well.
Wrong neck position for a day = more jaw problems. At least on me. My neck physio said that it is wrong behavior that should be unlearned. Because you do it unconciously you have to pay attention to it. Best way is to set a timer every 30 min and pay attention to your back, neck and jaw position.
It's a very grey area in which maxillofacial surgeons (dental surgeons) and jaw physiotherapist work together. They both know something but not enough (yet) to finally kill T. Maybe I should return to a gnatologist. However with the right treatment dental / jaw problems can be pushed back. The facial muscles are very difficult, problems can occur randomly again. That's why some dental operations are not conducted as they can make the problem worse or do not help at all and make more damage than good. I had my teeth cleaned and I was worried about the dental tool noise. But it went fine.
Log in or register to get the full forum benefits!
Similar threads
