TNF Alpha and Brain Inflammation

[JK888]

As I wrote in the other thread, LDN can help with neuro inflammation. It also acts to reduce all the pro-inflammatory cytokines:

Be careful about jumping to conclusions about anything regarding plasma levels. TONS of medications can reduce TNF in plasma. That is just blood. The tissue they need to target can technically only be tested upon autopsy. Maybe a spinal tap could give some info, but it wouldn't be necessarily useful. The kind of low level chronic inflammation we are talking about is not necessarily distinguishable in CSF either, much less plasma (blood).

Technically, several medications (such as Bupropion and some other psych drugs) do lower TNFa in the brain, but it is very weak and almost not worth mentioning at all.

 

[JK888]

I need to see what research has been done on the last 2 (other than antioxidants). Steroids?

Steroids are effective, but they cannot be used long term.

Even using Psilocybin requires regular dosing. If I had been using steroids at this frequency over the past year, I would be due for a double hip replacement.

 

[Uklawyer]

@JK888, what do you think about the startup in your article looking at LSD to help with neurodegenerative disease? Looks like they are looking at retina function at the moment.

And what about antioxidants to help with neuroinflammation?

 

[Lukee]

Be careful about jumping to conclusions about anything regarding plasma levels. TONS of medications can reduce TNF in plasma. That is just blood. The tissue they need to target can technically only be tested upon autopsy. Maybe a spinal tap could give some info, but it wouldn't be necessarily useful. The kind of low level chronic inflammation we are talking about is not necessarily distinguishable in CSF either, much less plasma (blood).

Technically, several medications (such as Bupropion and some other psych drugs) do lower TNFa in the brain, but it is very weak and almost not worth mentioning at all.

Agreed, but LDN has been clinically shown to reduce neuroinflammation. I'm not sure about how TNFa specifically translates from plasma levels to brain but for sure there is some anti inflammatory effect of the brain.

All that being said, there might be some synergistic effect of combining psychedelics and LDN.

 

[Lukee]

@JK888, what do you think about the startup in your article looking at LSD to help with neurodegenerative disease? Looks like they are looking at retina function at the moment.

And what about antioxidants to help with neuroinflammation?

As @JK888 points out, there are many substances that affect inflammatory markers but not in the brain. I think LDN (and I guess psychedelics) can help with targeting neuroinflammation.

 

[JK888]

@JK888, what do you think about the startup in your article looking at LSD to help with neurodegenerative disease? Looks like they are looking at retina function at the moment.

And what about antioxidants to help with neuroinflammation?

I think that they will have great results. The effects of 5ht2a agonism and inflammation are well documented. They can look at dozens of different inflammatory diseases, the mechanism is the same.

Antioxidants? Sure. They are good for you. Destress, eat healthy, yadda yadda. But taking some antioxidants won't necessarily reverse neurodegenerative disease. I'm sure they are great preventatives, but that ship has sailed, hasn't it?

I am coming from a different perspective here. I don't hear my tinnitus anymore. I take Psilocybin, which has a very similar mechanism to LSD. I'm done, I crossed the finish line. I have zero interest in pursuing other dead end routes.

 

[Uklawyer]

I think that they will have great results. The effects of 5ht2a agonism and inflammation are well documented. They can look at dozens of different inflammatory diseases, the mechanism is the same.

I am coming from a different perspective here. I don't hear my tinnitus anymore. I take Psilocybin, which has a very similar mechanism to LSD. I'm done, I crossed the finish line. I have zero interest in pursuing other dead end routes.

So you are also looking at reducing inflammation as a means of reducing tinnitus?

 

[Lukee]

So you are also looking at reducing inflammation as a means of reducing tinnitus?

@JK888 is not looking at anything. She's telling you that Psilocybin has cured her tinnitus. I don't think she can tell you the exact mechanism as to why it works but I'd guess it's a combination of new neural pathways being formed and anti-inflammatory properties of Psilocybin.

 

[Uklawyer]

@JK888 is not looking at anything. She's telling you that Psilocybin has cured her tinnitus. I don't think she can tell you the exact mechanism as to why it works but I'd guess it's a combination of new neural pathways being formed and anti-inflammatory properties of Psilocybin.

I understand that. I was just pointing out the inflammation angle, given that @JK888 didn't seem too hot on the use of antioxidants to help with tinnitus - despite referencing the anti-inflammatory properties (implied) of LSD.

From what I have read on here - with frequent comment from you on relevant threads - we have anti-inflammatory approaches with Dexamethasone/corticosteroids, hallucinogens and antioxidants as possible pathways to remission.

 

[Lukee]

I understand that. I was just pointing out the inflammation angle, given that @JK888 didn't seem too hot on the use of antioxidants to help with tinnitus - despite referencing the anti-inflammatory properties (implied) of LSD.

From what I have read on here - with frequent comment from you on relevant threads - we have anti-inflammatory approaches with Dexamethasone/corticosteroids, hallucinogens and antioxidants as possible pathways to remission.

I believe that the majority of tinnitus is caused by a form of inflammation. This might be due to mitochondrial dysfunction in the inner ear but I surely can't prove anything. If you follow the evidence, it lines up even though people choose not to believe it because it doesn't fit their narrative.

As @JK888 is saying, antioxidants are good for preventative but I don't think they are enough for reversing this type of inflammation. When you see @Renka's post about intratympanic Dexamethasone, you realize that inflammation is such a large factor in all this. One common theory I've read is that the inflammation incapacitates the hair cells as opposed to them actually being dead, and once the inflammation is removed, the hair cells become active again.

 

[Uklawyer]

I believe that the majority of tinnitus is caused by a form of inflammation. This might be due to mitochondrial dysfunction in the inner ear but I surely can't prove anything. If you follow the evidence, it lines up even though people choose not to believe it because it doesn't fit their narrative.

As @JK888 is saying, antioxidants are good for preventative but I don't think they are enough for reversing this type of inflammation. When you see @Renka's post about intratympanic Dexamethasone, you realize that inflammation is such a large factor in all this. One common theory I've read is that the inflammation incapacitates the hair cells as opposed to them actually being dead, and once the inflammation is removed, the hair cells become active again.

Well, it certainly looks like one possible explanation for tinnitus - and the treatments that appear to have worked for some certainly seem to bear this out. I don't know if large doses of various antioxidants and other anti-inflammatory supplements will help in any way, but I may have to try that out initially.Then, perhaps see about corticosteroids before waiting for hallucinogens.

 

[Lukee]

Well, it certainly looks like one possible explanation for tinnitus - and the treatments that appear to have worked for some certainly seem to bear this out. I don't know if large doses of various antioxidants and other anti-inflammatory supplements will help in any way, but I may have to try that out initially.Then, perhaps see about corticosteroids before waiting for hallucinogens.

I'd say you are safer with psychedelics over steroids unless you are doing IT and even then I'd still guess Psilocybin is safer.

 

[Uklawyer]

I'd say you are safer with psychedelics over steroids unless you are doing IT and even then I'd still guess Psilocybin is safer.

Really? I have never tried them so could not say (though I thought some people on here had reported negative effects from its use).

 

[JK888]

Really? I have never tried them so could not say (though I thought some people on here had reported negative effects from its use).

Yes. MUCH safer. Overusing steroids can lead to bone death, particularly the leg bones. I know someone who got desperate to make their cluster headaches stop, and overused steroids. They had to have double hip replacements.

With Psilocybin, there is no physical risk anywhere close to that.

I don't think you understand the difficulty involved in lowering neuroinflammation. Solving the issue of neuroinflammation would solve a lot of incurable, progressive neurodegenerative diseases. Alzheimer's and other dementias included. Some "antioxidants" are not going to cut it.

Other than a healthy diet, I don't take additional supplements to "maintain the silence". I do take a small, subhallucinogenic dose of Psilocybin once a week to maintain.

 

[JK888]

I'll just ask my doctor for Etanercept. Then I had a discussion with him and found out that it's insanely expensive.

It is insanely expensive, and unlikely to have an effect on neuroinflammation unless injected directly in the spine.

It doesn't cross the blood brain barrier otherwise.

Psilocybin does block TNFa and crosses the blood brain barrier and it is practically free.

 

[Johnny Karate]

Where do you get Psilocybin?

 

[JK888]

Where do you get Psilocybin?

Most people grow it themselves.

This is a course on how.

 

[Johnny Karate]

Most people grow it themselves.

This is a course on how.

Thanks man. I am to the point where i am willing to try anything.

 

[DebInAustralia]

I remain interested in this possible therapeutic target: neuroinflammation.

From the research, there are 2 possible ways to tackle neuroinflammation:

1. downregulate the activation of the microglia

2. inhibit TNF-alpha

There are several people on Tinnitus Talk; including a good friend of mine, who has experienced significant benefit from using supplements/meds that suppress TNF-alpha such as LDN and Curcumin.

I wrote to a world renowned Lyme herbalist; Stephen Buhner, who has suggested using:

1. Baikal skullcap for deactivating the microglia

2. Curcumin combined with Resveratrol to inhibit TNF-alpha

Interesting to note that prior to my relapse, I was taking Baikal skullcap as part of a formula made up for my Lyme disease. Maybe that is why my tinnitus had been behaving.

If anyone is interested in trying this, please let me know.

 

[Lukee]

I remain interested in this possible therapeutic target: neuroinflammation.

From the research, there are 2 possible ways to tackle neuroinflammation:

1. downregulate the activation of the microglia

2. inhibit TNF-alpha

There are several people on Tinnitus Talk; including a good friend of mine, who has experienced significant benefit from using supplements/meds that suppress TNF-alpha such as LDN and Curcumin.

I wrote to a world renowned Lyme herbalist; Stephen Buhner, who has suggested using:

1. Baikal skullcap for deactivating the microglia

2. Curcumin combined with Resveratrol to inhibit TNF-alpha

Interesting to note that prior to my relapse, I was taking Baikal skullcap as part of a formula made up for my Lyme disease. Maybe that is why my tinnitus had been behaving.

If anyone is interested in trying this, please let me know.

I am on the same page as you. I believe LDN can help a subset of sufferers, as we've already seen.

In terms of surprising TNF-a, I think psychedelics could also be promising. There are several that are TNF-a inhibitors, psilocybin is one for starters. Psychedelics also work to inhibit other inflammatory pathways with different psychedelics affecting different pathways. Lately, I have been interested in the sigma-1r receptor and it's activation by DMT or even fluvoxamine. Sigma-1r agonism has been reported to ameliorate long Covid symptoms but has also, in some instances (see Dr. Drew), reduced or eliminated tinnitus.

I don't think these targeting these pathways will help everyone but they could offer some relief and help break the cycle so that healing can take place.

 

[DebInAustralia]

Hi Luke,

During another relapse in 2020, I looked at taking LDN. Everyone I spoke to said it either didn't help them, or moreso, made their tinnitus spike. I only know of one person, who has a probable background of hydrops, who is virtually tinnitus free whilst on 1 mg LDN. I know Dirk de Ridder suggests LDN based on a trial he conducted, showing some positive results. However, I was never game to try in case it made it worse.

Are you going to try LDN, Psilocybin, other?

I don't know anything about the sigma-1r receptor or the drugs you mention. What is the sigma's relationship with tinnitus?

 

[DebInAustralia]

I think that they will have great results. The effects of 5ht2a agonism and inflammation are well documented. They can look at dozens of different inflammatory diseases, the mechanism is the same.

Antioxidants? Sure. They are good for you. Destress, eat healthy, yadda yadda. But taking some antioxidants won't necessarily reverse neurodegenerative disease. I'm sure they are great preventatives, but that ship has sailed, hasn't it?

I am coming from a different perspective here. I don't hear my tinnitus anymore. I take Psilocybin, which has a very similar mechanism to LSD. I'm done, I crossed the finish line. I have zero interest in pursuing other dead end routes

My apologies if you have already discussed this, but how did you arrive at using Psilocybin?

 

[IntotheBlue03]

Hi @DebInAustralia,

I am absolutely interested in trying this and am happy that I was able to locate this thread as I believe increased TNF-a may be the culprit for me. I was just diagnosed with an autoimmune disease that went misdiagnosed for 25 years (non-radiographic axial Spondyloarthritis) and it has wreaked havoc on my body in the form of spinal and joint damage amongst other symptoms. My CRP is the one inflammatory marker that has consistently increased over the years despite weight loss (from obese to a healthy BMI), changes to a mostly anti inflammatory diet, and 4 miles of walking daily for physical activity.

I had never explored the supplement route until recently as I'd like to avoid biologics if possible, to reduce TNF-a and see if reduced neuroinflammation reduces this recent onset of chronic tinnitus amongst other symptoms I experience. In addition, as my CRP was increasing I was experiencing intermittent tinnitus on and off for the past 5 years. I've had 2 normal audiograms (though I suspect I have normal age related ultra high frequency hearing loss as my tinnitus pitch is in the 15-16 kHz range, which I assume is normal for 36, otherwise everyone at this age and older would have tinnitus so there must be another factor).

That being said this is my supplemental line up to hopefully see if I can go into remission and discern if reduced neuroinflammation has an effect on my tinnitus:

Fish Oil 3600 mg Daily
Meriva 500-SF Curcumin Phytosome 500mg Daily
Palmitoylethanolamide 400mg Daily
CoQ10 200 mg Daily
(I have found several recent published studies that show reduction of TNF-a in these supplements to some degree)

Do you have any recommendation mg wise for Skullcap or Resveratrol? Are there any concerns about worsening tinnitus or tinnitus as a side effect that anyone has come across for these supplements? Not seeking medical advice, just opinion of course.

I plan to start this next Wednesday following a PRP treatment I am having this Wednesday.

 

[Lane]

Hi @IntotheBlue03 -- You might find THIS POST interesting. It describes how a man from London got rid of his tinnitus after 14 years by using Traditional Chinese Medicine (TCM). -- All the Best...

 

[Uklawyer]

I believe increased TNF-a may be the culprit for me. I was just diagnosed with an autoimmune disease that went misdiagnosed for 25 years (non-radiographic axial Spondyloarthritis)

Funny, I was just reading up on Sacroiliitis (inflammation of the joint between the sacrum and the pelvis) as I am sure that this is what I have been suffering from over the past couple of weeks.

I saw that this could be caused by overexpression of TNF, and, therefore, that TNF inhibitors (etanercept (Enbrel), adalimumab (Humira) and infliximab (Remicade) are a way of treating the inflammation.

I wonder if there is a correlation between my back pain and the tinnitus at all.

 

[Uklawyer]

Interesting to note that prior to my relapse, I was taking Baikal skullcap as part of a formula made up for my Lyme disease. Maybe that is why my tinnitus had been behaving.

If anyone is interested in trying this, please let me know.

@DebInAustralia, I am interested in this.

What do you mean when you state that your tinnitus was "behaving" when taking Baikal Skullcap? How low was it compared to it not behaving? Was it at baseline or better than baseline?

Thanks.

 

[DebInAustralia]

@DebInAustralia, I am interested in this.

What do you mean when you state that your tinnitus was "behaving" when taking Baikal Skullcap? How low was it compared to it not behaving? Was it at baseline or better than baseline?

Thanks for your question.

I made 2 new friends in 2013. Tinnitus and hyperacusis.

Several 'fall outs' with my friends over the years.

Not sure if i have ever truly habituated vs. volume reduction.

Diagnosed with Lyme in 2017. Started treatment with traditional Chinese herbs; including Baikal Skullcap.

It is really only a hypothesis that the Baikal may have driven down TNF. I know from speaking briefly with Stephen Buhner, that it can.

Aside from Magnesium L-Threonate, I am not currently taking anything since my relapse in October 2021, because I wasn't sure if something I was taking was impacting on things.

I experienced a relapse late 2020. Stopped all my herbs etc. Nothing I did helped, so forced myself to return back to work in the hope that I would habituate. Must have gradually.

Then another short lived relapse in March 2021, which must have resolved.

Plenty of stress in 2021, so maybe that is partly responsible for where I am at now.

I have had raised TNF-alpha serum levels before, but obviously this isn't a reflection of CNS TNF.

I am waiting on another serum TNF (just for curiosity's sake), and will discuss at my next naturopathic appointment.

I can't actually say with certainty when my tinnitus quietened down. I can say that when it had, I wasn't hearing it a lot of the time, or when i did, it didn't seem to bother me. At one point last year, with all the time off with my head injury, I would sit in my room for many hours doing crafts etc and I don't recall even hearing it.

My tinnitus does fluctuate though (suspect the perimenopause might have something to do with this.)

I would give the Baikal Skullcap a try - drives down TNF.

Resveratrol deactivates microglia.

 

[Uklawyer]

Diagnosed with Lyme in 2017. Started treatment with traditional Chinese herbs; including Baikal Skullcap.

So you are not sure if the Baikal Skullcap helped or not? I might have to read more about it and see.

How is the Lyme?

 

[DebInAustralia]

So you are not sure if the Baikal Skullcap helped or not? I might have to read more about it and see.

How is the Lyme?

I am sorry I couldn't be more helpful.

If you look up Stephen Buhner and Baikal Skullcap, i dare say he has written quite a lot about it.

I'm not taking anything for my Lyme now, because I stopped everything with the relapse. My symptoms aren't too horrible, but it can fluctuate.

 

[Uklawyer]

@DebInAustralia, not at all - it is all helpful.

Have you tried any programs for Lyme Disease? Stuff like Gupta Program, ANS Rewire, DNRS, Vital-Side? What kind of symptoms do you have?