Toilet Lid Noise and Corticosteroids?

[TuneOut]

Un-. If it was disproven I'm sure we would have seen a google scholar post by now

There's got to be some study somewhere that indicates whether damaged ears are more susceptible to trauma. $1,000,000 bounty to the first person who finds it!

 

[kelpiemsp]

If you are a cancer research scientist, how could you make a statement saying that the probability of one of the readers here getting cancer had increased by 300%? Given how uncertain all of this is (how many people would read my posts, how many would decide to get prednisone, how many will actually be able to get their hands on prednisone, the dosage that they will be taking, the number of days they will take it for, etc.) not a very scientific statement, right?

I just asked for a source, I didn't say that prednisone doesn't cause cancer. I couldn't see anything about it among the first 50 or so results on Google Scholar. Since I am potentially going to be taking more prednisone in the future, being able to see the study (studies?) linking it to cancer would certainly be helpful.

What is your question? How can a cancer research scientist do a quick study on an internet forum? Thanks for asking. I made a back of the envelope calculation. I used if someone had taken prednisone every time you recommended it, as an estimated dose. Secondly, I did a search for how many times you recommended prednisone to see what the exposure was. I then used these numbers to create an odds ratio (these are very conservative estimate only adding the cancers I mentioned)

304.67 percent is probably actually a lot closer Also, a percent increase doesn't need to know anything how about many people read your posts. As we have established the populations. Does this make sense?

I'm not sure on what source you should use. Most of my sources are from the patient population I have to serve. If you keep reading google scholar you can find it. Maybe try JAMA or the New England Journal of Medicine?

 

[Tinniger]

The danger of noise, even with pre-damaged ears, remains a product of intensity * duration. Due to the short duration, I do not believe that the noise described is sufficient to cause damage.

 

[Bill Bauer]

How can a cancer research scientist do a quick study on an internet forum?

The study that you have access to must have specified how many Prednisone pills are dangerous. In other words, taking it for a month must be more dangerous than taking it for three days. So how many pills are you assuming one is going to take to increase one's chance of getting cancer?

 

[kelpiemsp]

The danish cancer registry. Having 15 or more prescriptions for steroids filled over the eight-year period was associated with a 1.52-fold increase in basal cell carcinoma risk and a 2.45-fold increase in risk for squamous cell carcinoma. Non-Hodgkin's lymphoma risk was found to be 2.68-fold higher for patients having 10 to 14 prescriptions filled over the study period. So looking at those cancers combined you have a 152 percent plus 245 plus 268. So seriously... think twice maybe three times before you scare someone to the ER. Now 15 is a lot, but there's is a linear dose response here. Also with the lymphomas it only take just over per year. Back to skin cancer it only takes 7.5 times over 4 years or 3.75 over two will still increase your risk. This study was backed by findings from the journal of the national cancer institute. I mean think about it. Prednisone shuts off the bodies immune system, a lymphoma is a no brainer as we know the etiology of lymphomas. And skin cancer well again it's very logical given the etiology. If you have noise induced hearing loss, a perforated ear drum, or are suddenly deaf get the steroids it's a one time thing and again easily worth the risk. But after that your playing with fire. The ENTs and MDs aren't stupid, they are balancing these statistics every time they prescribe medication. And if they don't act like it, it's probably because they can't bill for educating a client on risk ratios and frankly don't have the patience to explain why they make every decision they do.

 

[Sonic17]

I've been following the thread and I would agree as a T sufferer my ears are definitely compromised. I cannot tolerate noises that I was able to before I had T; seems pretty basic.
Advice on how to not aggravate this miserable condition is received well by most of us on the forum.

 

[Sonic17]

Prednisone is a safe and widely used medication; if it was that harmful it would no longer be prescribed.

 

[Tinker Bell]

Prednisone is a safe and widely used medication; if it was that harmful it would no longer be prescribed.

But like all prescribed medications it is safe when correctly taken. Any medication can be misused and become unsafe, causing more harm than good.

I have had several family members and an acquaintance who needed multiple doses of steroids this past year. They were closely monitored by their doctors, time was allotted between prescriptions, and there was a maximum exposure amount per year.

Rushing to the ER, lying to the doctors, and trying to stockpile prednisone to have on had — does that sound like correctly taking medications? Are these individuals fully reporting their medical history, including all other incidences of prednisone usage?

 

[Julien87]

@Bill Bauer I'm glad you can search google, but clearly not well enough. I need to get back to my job. Oh wait, luckily this intersects with it nicely as I am a cancer research scientist. I was going to give you a source but I feel likes it's pointless. Radiation treats cancer, it also causes it. That should explain it well enough for you. Just insert prednisone. That's why people don't have CT scans all the time. This really shouldn't be rocket science...

By "do you have a source", I'm pretty sure he was asking for a thread where someone tells he got cancer after using prednisone.
No offense Bill, just kidding.

 

[SugarMagnolia]

There's got to be some study somewhere that indicates whether damaged ears are more susceptible to trauma.

Yes please. This is what I desperately want to know.

 

[kelpiemsp]

Actually we can rejoice! https://asa.scitation.org/doi/abs/10.1121/1.2027789 "In any event, the results prove that a damaged chinchilla ear is not more susceptible to further damage—if anything, it is less susceptible"

Of course susceptible to more damage and hearing loss is not the same as susceptible to T increase/spike.

 

[Sonic17]

Rushing to the ER, lying to the doctors, and trying to stockpile prednisone to have on had — does that sound like correctly taking medications?

Hmmm, did I miss a thread? I have never seen a post encouraging this. Although I have not been on the forum much lately.

 

[Sonic17]

But like all prescribed medications it is safe when correctly taken

Yes, this is common sense. Tylenol can become dangerous if not used properly.

 

[Ed209]

Hmmm, did I miss a thread? I have never seen a post encouraging this. Although I have not been on the forum much lately.

Unfortunately, stock-piling and taking prednisone is encouraged and regularly talked about on here. And yes, I've seen recommendations to lie to Doctors in ER on a regular basis. There are people on here who take prednisone like they're smarties anytime a 'loud' noise is experienced. This ranges from slamming doors to falling toilet seats to all sorts of sounds. It's unhealthy and wrong.

Sure, take prednisone if you are exposed to a legitimately dangerous noise if that's what your Dr advises. I certainly wouldn't take the advice of an armchair expert - off a forum - when it comes to drugs and ones health though.

 

[Tinker Bell]

Hmmm, did I miss a thread? I have never seen a post encouraging this. Although I have not been on the forum much lately.

Yes, these behaviors are encouraged on multiple threads and even on the first page of this particular thread.

 

[SugarMagnolia]

Actually we can rejoice! https://asa.scitation.org/doi/abs/10.1121/1.2027789 "In any event, the results prove that a damaged chinchilla ear is not more susceptible to further damage—if anything, it is less susceptible"

Of course susceptible to more damage and hearing loss is not the same as susceptible to T increase/spike.

I feel dumb asking this but: How is a T increase not the same thing as more damage? I thought T was the result of damage done by the acoustic trauma.

 

[GregCA]

Don't misuse Bayesian inference here, especially when your a priori probability is NOT the end result of an accurate deductive reasoning process. This false use of statistics is really not benefiting anyone.

This is an unfortunate but recurrent theme.

I do wish there was a way to rate posts as "dangerous" with a little icon. Perhaps a more PC adjective would be "eyebrow raiser".

Hmmm, did I miss a thread? I have never seen a post encouraging this. Although I have not been on the forum much lately.

It does happen fairly frequently, usually from the same source(s).

 

[kelpiemsp]

I feel dumb asking this but: How is a T increase not the same thing as more damage? I thought T was the result of damage done by the acoustic trauma.

Don't feel dumb at all! T is the result of so many things, nobody truly knows all causes. But for some T sufferers its root cause does not involve the auditory system, at least directly. Some people with severe hearing loss don't have T. The only thing we do know, is that regardless of the cause, the brain can stop it from happening.

 

[Sonic17]

Unfortunately, stock-piling and taking prednisone is encouraged and regularly talked about on here. And yes, I've seen recommendations to lie to Doctors in ER on a regular basis.

I guess I take this advice with a grain of salt. Physicians generally do not hand out Prednisone like it is candy and it therefore really is impossible to "stockpile"; not where I live anyways. My experience has been that people generally under use medication that has been prescribed to them, so anything they have "stockpiled" as you say is still being used within safe limits.

 

[Tinker Bell]

I would get steroids, if I were you. I would take them for 2-3 days. And then I would keep the rest to be used in case something like that happens again.

Are there any studies indicating that only 2-3 days of prednisone is effective for SSHL?

Any data I have read recommended a dosing of at least 10 days. My original ENT prescribed 15 days, and any subsequent specialists confirmed that was an ideal dosing. Two specialists — one who does cochlear implants and another who does considerable research — even indicated there is difficulty in reducing inflammation near the cochlear through oral steroids. Thus the value of high dosing and intratympanic injections, which better target the specific area.

In other instances of oral steroid use (back pain, asthma, autoimmune conditions, etc), do doctors ever prescribe only two or three days of the medication? I have heard of five day dosing, but never only two days.

And where are the glowing posts about oral steroids on TT? If we are going to view the experiences of our fellow TT members as the gold standard for how tinnitus behaves, then we should have countless success stories to read. Oddly, I only recall seeing complaints of spikes while taking or tapering off steroids.

 

[SugarMagnolia]

I feel like, even if a noise didn't cause more damage or hearing loss, but "just" an increase in T, that would be bad enough to make me avoid the noise. So the chinchilla study doesn't put me at ease.

brain can stop it from happening.

Then it seems like scientists should be trying to discover a way to make the brain stop the T from happening.

 

[kelpiemsp]

I feel like, even if a noise didn't cause more damage or hearing loss, but "just" an increase in T, that would be bad enough to make me avoid the noise. So the chinchilla study doesn't put me at ease.


Then it seems like scientists should be trying to discover a way to make the brain stop the T from happening.

They are! I am currently being interviewed as a participant in the second trial.

https://www.tinnitustalk.com/thread...igan-tinnitus-discovery-—-signal-timing.2805/

and

https://www.tinnitustalk.com/thread...rch-with-acoustic-and-body-stimulation.28022/

 

[GregCA]

Physicians generally do not hand out Prednisone like it is candy and it therefore really is impossible to "stockpile"; not where I live anyways.

You're right. That's precisely why some of the advice you'll read in here specifically instructs people to lie to the doctors in order to be prescribed drugs (and "stockpile" them).

 

[Ed209]

I guess I take this advice with a grain of salt. Physicians generally do not hand out Prednisone like it is candy and it therefore really is impossible to "stockpile"; not where I live anyways. My experience has been that people generally under use medication that has been prescribed to them, so anything they have "stockpiled" as you say is still being used within safe limits.

It's not impossible when people are lying to their Doctors. For example: a door slams and they freak out. They believe damage has occurred - mainly through behaviour learned online - so they immediately seek prednisone. Instead of telling the doctor that a door slammed (which seems too pathetic in the cold light of day) they exaggerate the story into something far more drastic which often ends up with the doctor in question giving the person a course of prednisone. If this isn't bad enough, then on top of this I have seen threads where it's advised that this isn't enough and that they must go to another ER and seek even more prednisone using the same tactics.

This really happens on here.

 

[Ed209]

You're right. That's precisely why some of the advice you'll read in here specifically instructs people to lie to the doctors in order to be prescribed drugs (and "stockpile" them).

Exactly! You beat me to it.

 

[SugarMagnolia]

They are! I am currently being interviewed as a participant in the second trial.

That's awesome. I look forward to reading about it.

 

[Ed209]

Are there any studies indicating that only 2-3 days of prednisone is effective for SSHL?

Any data I have read recommended a dosing of at least 10 days. My original ENT prescribed 15 days, and any subsequent specialists confirmed that was an ideal dosing. Two specialists — one who does cochlear implants and another who does considerable research — even indicated there is difficulty in reducing inflammation near the cochlear through oral steroids. Thus the value of high dosing and intratympanic injections, which better target the specific area.

In other instances of oral steroid use (back pain, asthma, autoimmune conditions, etc), do doctors ever prescribe only two or three days of the medication? I have heard of five day dosing, but never only two days.

And where are the glowing posts about oral steroids on TT? If we are going to view the experiences of our fellow TT members as the gold standard for how tinnitus behaves, then we should have countless success stories to read. Oddly, I only recall seeing complaints of spikes while taking or tapering off steroids.

Unfortunately Tinker Bell, nobody does any further research when it comes to drugs. Some are happy to believe random people who post on forums over qualified medics who have trained in this field. Apparently, Joe Bloggs from TT has all the answers that the experts lack.

I cringe when I see people telling others to stock up on drugs and what dosage to take. Prednisone is the prime candidate.

 

[Sonic17]

In other instances of oral steroid use (back pain, asthma, autoimmune conditions, etc), do doctors ever prescribe only two or three days of the medication?

Yes, however drug therapy may differ country to country.

 

[Sonic17]

Are these individuals fully reporting their medical history, including all other incidences of prednisone usage?

This is impossible to do in Manitoba, Canada. We have electronic computer systems that track all meds., Dr visits, consults etc into one system. If I go to the Dr. here all of this information is at the health care provider's fingertips. Lying about meds, medical history etc is virtually impossible.
What is really sad is that most of us that suffer with Tinnitus have not found appropriate health care in our current medical system. That is great @kelpiemsp that you are participating in trials to help T and that you @Tinker Bell seem to have an amazing ENT; however; for different reasons, the majority of us on this forum have not had the good fortune that you two have had in obtaining help with our T.

 

[kelpiemsp]

This is impossible to do in Manitoba, Canada. We have electronic computer systems that track all meds., Dr visits, consults etc into one system. If I go to the Dr. here all of this information is at the health care provider's fingertips. Lying about meds, medical history etc is virtually impossible.

I wish this were true. Maybe Canada is way beyond the United States as far as tech is concerned (I understand our health care systems are different). But, I have a hard enough integrating cancer data in the United States. Last week I had to call three people and let them know they had positive pathology reports indicating likely cancer because the EMR (electronic medical record) between the local clinic and large site doing colonoscopies did not link. I can think of 5 different medical records systems off the top of my head, and while we have recently launched the "care anywhere" protocol, you can bet small offices are still faxing prescriptions, pathology reports etc.