War in Ukraine — Megathread

[Lane]

If there's one glaring lesson to be learned from this war, it's that a country with nuclear weapons can commit unspeakable atrocities on a neighboring country, and essentially get away with it, because other countries (like the U.S.) don't want to risk a confrontation with a nuclear power.

I think my above comment deserves a second reading. I say this because the possible use of nuclear weapons by Russia in Ukraine seems to have completely upended prevailing attitudes over many decades that they should NEVER be used. With Putin's cavalier attitude about the possible use of nuclear weapons, it can't help but affect other countries of the world and their own attitude toward nuclear weapons.

I mention this because of the following ABC News article I just read. I believe the inference by Israel (bolded below) is that they are prepared to use tactical nuclear weapons against Iran to prevent it from getting nuclear weapons. Israel, from official comments over many years, considers a nuclear armed Iran an existential threat. They can't defeat them in a conventional military conflict, but can land a devastating nuclear bomb knockout blow if it feels it has to. And I believe they would.

Israel raises Iran concerns with visiting UN nuclear chief

Bennett's office said that while Israel prefers diplomacy, "it reserves the right to self-defense and to action against Iran in order to block its nuclear program should the international community not succeed in the relevant time frame."​

 

[Joeseph Stope]

All this talk of long-range missiles and drones... there is the moral issue of bombing all these women and children out of the apartment blocks.

But if it turns into a long war -- and that seems to be the shape it's taking... It's the Economy Stupid!

Meet you on the soup line.

 

[Luman]

Joe Biden is going to turn 80 years old, this year. If anything happens to him, this is his replacement. Just let that sink in for a few minutes.

 

[lolkas]

Joe Biden is going to turn 80 years old, this year. If anything happens to him, this is his replacement. Just let that sink in for a few minutes.

View attachment 50484

Lmao.

 

[lolkas]

To add: poor people in Ukraine and Russia. Now a lot more people will suffer consequences of war; death, injuries, hearing loss, tinnitus...

 

[Juan]

It's harder a surprise: we send weapons to Ukraine and "they go missing" or are sold in the black market.

Nato and EU sound alarm over Ukraine weapons smuggling

Countries call for greater tracking of arms to stop sales to Europe's black market

 

[Rainer]

It's harder a surprise: we send weapons to Ukraine and "they go missing" or are sold in the black market.

Nato and EU sound alarm over Ukraine weapons smuggling

Interesting. Your link points to an article with a different headline:

"Nato and EU sound alarm over risk of Ukraine weapons smuggling"

Additionally, the very same news outlet writes today that:

"Kyiv quells fears of weapons smuggling from Ukraine"

A fear that, to me, would seem patently absurd on its face.

 

[Juan]

Interesting. Your link points to an article with a different headline:

"Nato and EU sound alarm over risk of Ukraine weapons smuggling"

Additionally, the very same news outlet writes today that:

"Kyiv quells fears of weapons smuggling from Ukraine"

A fear that, to me, would seem patently absurd on its face.

The possibility of weapons sent by the West being smuggled in Ukraine is all over the news.

There was a British newspaper reporting that Ukraine is proposing to create an administrative body to control that weapons are not being smuggled... which is ridiculous, since Ukraine is a country at war and guaranteeing control over the weapons they are provided with is pretty much impossible...

So the EU and the US are sending weapons to Ukraine (all this paid by the taxpayers, as an act of faith and goodwill) so that they are ultimately sold for a profit without any control, ending up in the hands of terrorists and God knows where...

 

[Joeseph Stope]

The possibility of weapons sent by the West being smuggled in Ukraine is all over the news.

There was a British newspaper reporting that Ukraine is proposing to create an administrative body to control that weapons are not being smuggled... which is ridiculous, since Ukraine is a country at war and guaranteeing control over the weapons they are provided with is pretty much impossible...

So the EU and the US are sending weapons to Ukraine (all this paid by the taxpayers, as an act of faith and goodwill) so that they are ultimately sold for a profit without any control, ending up in the hands of terrorists and God knows where...

I agree that it is a problem. One would assume that Zelensky is delighted to receive these long-range rockets and drones. But the Rooskies are just as delighted to discover where they are being stored. One precaution is to distribute them among several secret storage sites. And that means less control over them.

Of course you must know the first casualty of war.

It's the truth.

And the Russians are good at spreading disinformation, exaggeration, blowing out of proportion etc.

 

[Luman]

In 2021, President Biden left over seven billion dollars worth of American guns and military equipment to the Taliban in Afghanistan, which could have been given to Ukraine.

US abandoned $7B in military equipment in Afghanistan ahead of Taliban takeover

 

[Juan]

In 2021, President Biden left over seven billion dollars worth of American guns and military equipment to the Taliban in Afghanistan, which could have been given to Ukraine.

US abandoned $7B in military equipment in Afghanistan ahead of Taliban takeover

That's hardly surprising, since the US has been sending weapons without control to terrorist groups all over the world... sometimes terrorists have interests aligned with those of the US.

 

[Juan]

I agree that it is a problem. One would assume that Zelensky is delighted to receive these long-range rockets and drones. But the Rooskies are just as delighted to discover where they are being stored. One precaution is to distribute them among several secret storage sites. And that means less control over them.

Of course you must know the first casualty of war.

It's the truth.

And the Russians are good at spreading disinformation, exaggeration, blowing out of proportion etc.

I do not really see the point of sending weapons to Ukraine when they are going to lose the war anyway... Russia will keep making money from oil and gas sales and they will be able to finance their absurd war no matter for how long.

And the EU will end up purchasing Russian petrol from third countries, which is just ridiculous.

Actually today on the news there are headlines reporting that Saudi Arabia is purchasing Russian oil from third countries just to drive up prices and reduce offer.

 

[AnthonyMcDonald]

not really see the point of sending weapons to Ukraine when they are going to lose the war anyway...

I agree. Not to put the blame on Ukraine, because I do not agree with Рutin's motives, but I think they are honestly delaying the inevitable. They will not win the war, the people Russia and especially Ukraine will continue suffering for the stubbornness of both nations leaders.

It's ridiculous that peace has not been made yet, even if it means potentially losing Donetsk and Luhansk. It's just not worth it in the long run.

 

[Lane]

I do not really see the point of sending weapons to Ukraine when they are going to lose the war anyway...

It's ridiculous that peace has not been made yet

How do you make peace with Putin, a tyrant who has no interest in peace, and is only interested in the total subjugation and capitulation of Ukraine. Some people (like the Ukrainians) would rather die than live under an evil perpetuated by the serial killer Putin and the Russian military. If I were in Ukraine, I would be one of these of people. And I'd be pleading for much more in military assistance.

The Ukrainians have the will to fight, and I believe, if given the opportunity, will likely prevail in a protracted war with Russia. History is filled with numerous examples of supposed inferior and outnumbered people being able to prevail when their very freedoms and existence were on the line. The rag-tag Americans ability to win the Revolutionary War in 1776 against the vaunted British military is but one example. Give the Ukrainians what they need, and they will give the Russians what they deserve!

 

[AnthonyMcDonald]

How do you make peace with Putin, a tyrant who has no interest in peace, and is only interested in the total subjugation and capitulation of Ukraine.

I'm not being biased, but supposedly the goal of this "operation" was to free the oppressed Donetsk and Luhansk. I believe Putin offered to withdraw forces if they were freed, and Zelensky declined. This is the supposed story.

In any case I hate this war and it's screwed the development of Russia and Ukraine in many, many ways and should be ended as soon as possible.

 

[Juan]

How do you make peace with Putin, a tyrant who has no interest in peace, and is only interested in the total subjugation and capitulation of Ukraine. Some people (like the Ukrainians) would rather die than live under an evil perpetuated by the serial killer Putin and the Russian military. If I were in Ukraine, I would be one of these of people. And I'd be pleading for much more in military assistance.

The Ukrainians have the will to fight, and I believe, if given the opportunity, will likely prevail in a protracted war with Russia. History is filled with numerous examples of supposed inferior and outnumbered people being able to prevail when their very freedoms and existence were on the line. The rag-tag Americans ability to win the Revolutionary War in 1776 against the vaunted British military is but one example. Give the Ukrainians what they need, and they will give the Russians what they deserve!

Plane carrying munitions crashes in Greece killing all onboard
Army and explosive experts use drone amid toxicity fears from wreck reported to be Ukrainian aircraft

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...ng-dangerous-cargo-crashes-in-northern-greece

We were discussing previously the possibility of weapons sent by the EU and the US to Ukraine being smuggled and sold in the black market:

"A large cargo aircraft transporting munitions from Serbia to Bangladesh has crashed and exploded in a ball of flames in northern Greece, killing all eight crew onboard.

Serbia's defence minister, Nebojša Stefanović, said the plane was carrying 11.5 tonnes of military products, including illuminating mortar shells and training shells, and the buyer was the Bangladesh defence ministry.

Greek authorities said there were eight crew members onboard. A Ukrainian foreign ministry spokesman said they were all Ukrainian citizens.

Video and witness reports suggested the Antonov An-12 plane caught fire while still in the air. Witnesses said they had heard explosions as it flew over the area on Saturday night, Athens News Agency reported. Greek authorities said the pilot had made an emergency call before crashing."

 

[ZFire]

I do not really see the point of sending weapons to Ukraine when they are going to lose the war anyway

Would you like me to show you pictures of half-naked Ukrainian children, blindfolded, their hands tied behind their backs, and killed in execution style with bullets to their head? How about mass graves of burnt corpses? Maybe that'll change your mind?

Prolonging the war means staving off genocide. The West's commitment to arming those who are fighting against the genocide of their own people is necessary and warranted. Allowing savage orcs to just steamroll the country without resistance would be a terrible humanitarian scenario.

Ukraine have just received HIMARS and putting them to use.

It's ridiculous that peace has not been made yet, even if it means potentially losing Donetsk and Luhansk. It's just not worth it in the long run.

A recent poll suggests that some 89% of Ukrainians reject ceding any territory for peace; fully two thirds believe Ukraine can push Russian troops out of the country entirely.

Who cares what you think or I think for that matter.

I'm not being biased, but supposedly the goal of this "operation" was to free the oppressed Donetsk and Luhansk. I believe Putin offered to withdraw forces if they were freed, and Zelensky declined. This is the supposed story.

Lol.

 

[Lane]

I'm not being biased, but supposedly the goal of this "operation" was to free the oppressed Donetsk and Luhansk. I believe Putin offered to withdraw forces if they were freed, and Zelensky declined. This is the supposed story.

Hi @AnthonyMcDonald -- Putin is not to be believed or trusted regarding anything he says. He said before he started the war that it was ridiculous rhetoric coming out of the West that he intended to do so. Look what he did. He started the war out by invading the whole country, trying to capture Kiev the capital, and hopefully assassinate the political leaders of Ukraine, with Zelensky being his top target. When his military operation failed miserably, he decided to concentrate on the Donetsk and Luhansk regions.

But this was a tactical step, and in no way means he would be content to control just those two provinces. He wants the whole country. He has essentially said so, because he believes it is part of Russia, and so is Russian (not Ukrainian), and his taking total control of Ukraine is his objective. Since the war started, he's made similar comments about the Baltic states, and even Sweden, countries he believes to be part of the great Russian empire. He's a madman, dreaming in his own mind of his becoming a hero by restoring Russia's long lost glory.

In any case I hate this war

That's because you're a normal person. People like Putin are not "normal". They relish war, and like all serial killers, relish the killing of innocent men, women, and children. (It's actually somewhat similar to the authoritarian wannabe Donald Trump relishing the attack on the American Capitol building, though more extreme). It amazes me that anybody thinks "diplomacy" or "reasoned discussions" are possible with Putin. Only when he experiences very painful military defeats might he be ready to consider negotiations. So far, tens of thousands of Russian military casualties doesn't seem to have deterred him in the least.

 

[dan]

I agree. Not to put the blame on Ukraine, because I do not agree with Рutin's motives, but I think they are honestly delaying the inevitable. They will not win the war, the people Russia and especially Ukraine will continue suffering for the stubbornness of both nations leaders.

It's ridiculous that peace has not been made yet, even if it means potentially losing Donetsk and Luhansk. It's just not worth it in the long run.

For Ukrainians, it's not about stopping suffering and deaths, but as another member said, Ukrainians would rather die than subjugate themselves to Russia. It is what it is. Think Vietnam (Vietcong), Afghanistan (Taliban), etc. They will not stop until Russians are out of their country, unless Putin exterminates every last Ukrainian. Do not underestimate Ukrainian will.

 

[ZFire]

For Ukrainians, it's not about stopping suffering and deaths, but as another member said, Ukrainians would rather die than subjugate themselves to Russia. It is what it is. Think Vietnam (Vietcong), Afghanistan (Taliban), etc. They will not stop until Russians are out of their country, unless Putin exterminates every last Ukrainian. Do not underestimate Ukrainian will.

Yup.

 

[ZFire]

But this was a tactical step, and in no way means he would be content to control just those two provinces. He wants the whole country. He has essentially said so, because he believes it is part of Russia, and so is Russian (not Ukrainian), and his taking total control of Ukraine is his objective.

Exactly right @Lane. Putin's declared terms for victory were to "denazify" and "demilitarize" Ukraine. The clown said so himself. But after their embarrassing blitzkrieg-like attempt to overtake key Ukrainian cities, with Kiev being the crucial point of convergence, they were forced to change up their military operation plans by retreating and shifting their war efforts to the east. Putin's objectives still remains the same however.

 

[Lane]

The mother in this video is Russian, whose married to a Ukrainian. The young violinist is their daughter. Feels like a fitting song for the tragedy unfolding in Ukraine.

If you like the first video, you'll also probably like this one as well. -- Here's a third one.

 

[AnthonyMcDonald]

unless Putin exterminates every last Ukrainian.

But this isn't a good end result. But yeah. I just want it to stop.

 

[Juan]

Prolonging the war means staving off genocide.

That's what Zelensky is doing. I think the guy should reach an agreement even if it is a bad agreement. Thinking that Ukraine can win the war is just not realistic.

Zelensky's bad decisions are going to cost many lives that could be saved. In the meantime, he can promote himself in social networks.

The West's commitment to arming those who are fighting against the genocide of their own people is necessary and warranted.

So that weapons are smuggled by Ukrainians, sold in the black market, and sent somewhere else?

A recent poll suggests that some 89% of Ukrainians reject ceding any territory for peace; fully two thirds believe Ukraine can push Russian troops out of the country entirely.

The poll must have asked Zelensky and people who are comfortably sitting in an office, and not those who are dying... and their families.

 

[ZFire]

That's what Zelensky is doing. I think the guy should reach an agreement even if it is a bad agreement. Thinking that Ukraine can win the war is just not realistic.

Zelensky's bad decisions are going to cost many lives that could be saved. In the meantime, he can promote himself in social networks.

So that weapons are smuggled by Ukrainians, sold in the black market, and sent somewhere else?

The poll must have asked Zelensky and people who are comfortably sitting in an office, and not those who are dying... and their families.

 

[AnthonyMcDonald]

That's what Zelensky is doing. I think the guy should reach an agreement even if it is a bad agreement. Thinking that Ukraine can win the war is just not realistic.

I agree. As much as I hate to admit it, there is absolutely no way Ukraine is going to ever win this war. All Zelensky will do is push Putin to do more serious fucked up shit/drastic measure to finish the war quicker (like actually bombing cities for real) or other horrible things. Even if Russia nukes Kiev, NATO will not enter a war with Russia. Everything is leading to this.

The US and NATO is not sending enough equipment to make any significant difference, just for that "hey guys, I helped, I'm a good guy!" bragging rights.

 

[Juan]

I agree. As much as I hate to admit it, there is absolutely no way Ukraine is going to ever win this war. All Zelensky will do is push Putin to do more serious fucked up shit/drastic measure to finish the war quicker (like actually bombing cities for real) or other horrible things. Even if Russia nukes Kiev, NATO will not enter a war with Russia. Everything is leading to this.

The US and NATO is not sending enough equipment to make any significant difference, just for that "hey guys, I helped, I'm a good guy!" bragging rights.

There are times when one has to be practical, and Zelensky is not doing the right thing for Ukrainian people. He is just promoting himself on social media while his fellow citizens die.

 

[AnthonyMcDonald]

There are times when one has to be practical, and Zelensky is not doing the right thing for Ukrainian people. He is just promoting himself on social media while his fellow citizens die.

He refuses to do any negotiations for peace, at all, meanwhile rallying the people of Ukraine to give up their lives for basically no reason. I honestly don't understand why people call him a hero, a hero would do anything to try to achieve peace.

 

[Lane]

He refuses to do any negotiations for peace

You seem to be unaware that Zelensky repeatedly stressed in the early weeks of the war his willingness to sit down and discuss peace with Putin. He was rebuffed every time. It's the Russians who have steadfastly refused all negotiations. Please get your facts straight.

I'm not sure what Zelensky's stance on negotiations is at this time. Watching tens of thousands of innocent Ukrainians get slaughtered from deliberate strikes on civilian targets by the Russian military may have changed that. How do you negotiate with barbarians who have no interest in stopping their atrocities?

 

[AnthonyMcDonald]

Watching tens of thousands of innocent Ukrainians get slaughtered from deliberate strikes on civilian targets

This whole situation is very he said she said. Both Russia and Ukraine spew constant propaganda that either side is murdering civilians. It's hard to say what's the truth and what isn't.