Went to a Birthday Party Tonight — Hoping for the Best!

[John Mahan]

It's not hard to keep roughly the same volume of Tinnitus for a few years. I'm assuming your current spikes of Tinnitus, are worse than the ones that you had 3 years ago. Is it not right? Unless you've had no spikes 3 years ago.

I don't have many real spikes. I am sometimes surprised by the loudness of my tinnitus but honestly have pretty high confidence this volume fluctuation will once again subside.

My tinnitus loudness is based upon brain waves due to deep sleep i.e. dream state. Things throughout the day don't affect it that much. Sleep changes my tinnitus much more than brain wave activity when awake.

 

[Pawel1]

I don't have many real spikes. I am sometimes surprised by the loudness of my tinnitus but honestly have pretty high confidence this volume fluctuation will once again subside.

My tinnitus loudness is based upon brain waves due to deep sleep i.e. dream state. Things throughout the day don't affect it that much. Sleep changes my tinnitus much more than brain wave activity when awake.

I hope that's what it is in my case as well. My Tinnitus is really bothering today, but I had a bad night's sleep. I hope for better tomorrow.

 

[Bill Bauer]

avoid situations that "have the potential" to cause harm. Some people won't fly in planes because it may crash

For some of us, death is significantly less scary than having to spend decades living with debilitating tinnitus. How can "turning off the light" (and going back to the state that one had been in between the time of the Big Bang and one's birth) be compared to decades of relentless torture?!

You are right, many risks are not so bad (if the worst thing that can happen is that one dies). But other risks (e.g., severe chronic pain lasting decades, tinnitus lasting decades) are on a whole other level.

Rather, I'm asking you to stop telling others what is wrong for them.

I am sharing my thoughts with them. I am not Telling them they shouldn't do it, I am providing them with the arguments to not do it. If they aren't convinced by my arguments - so be it.

Sometimes it is live and learn. Don't touch! That is hot! I told you. Very sad.

You have no idea if the sound in your head is louder or softer than in my head or if you handle it better or worse.

Actually - I Do. Now think about why that might be (but I won't spell it out).

 

[MattS]

I don't have many real spikes. I am sometimes surprised by the loudness of my tinnitus but honestly have pretty high confidence this volume fluctuation will once again subside.

My tinnitus loudness is based upon brain waves due to deep sleep i.e. dream state. Things throughout the day don't affect it that much. Sleep changes my tinnitus much more than brain wave activity when awake.

Honestly, I don't know if that's lucky or unlucky. On the one hand, it frees you up to live life; on the other hand, there's very little you can do to modify your T-levels. I'm the opposite: if I lock myself in a deep dark quiet hole, I *will* feel better; but of course, then I'm in a deep, dark hole.

 

[Sash]

Interesting debate millions with Tinnitus continue their regular activities A) They are not aware or B) They do not give a stuff. The minority on this forum do care as it is affected them in someway.

I don't agree one should fully curtail one's social life as like @MattS mentioned it just leads to anxiety and depression but one has to be sensible and pick and choose the events he or she attends. Yes there is a chance it can get worse and some of us are older and wise enough I guess to deal with it. Tinnitus is not the worse medical condition to have. Its bloody annoying and currently so so loud (hear it above everything probably around 7/10 including my electric toothbrush) but I am not in pain or discomfort and doesn't affect my sleep

We will be more prone to age related conditions as we get older plus. My dad has hearing problems so maybe I was susceptible to Tinnitus.

Members on this forum care and mean well but just wish they were little more pragmatic and put everything into perspective. There are going to be cases that are heartbreaking but for every such case there are thousands of success cases how people have overcome their battle with Tinnitus where it not longer affects them. Just human nature to focus attention on the heartbreaking case and get worried than the many success cases. I am the same to a degree if I get 99 compliments and 1 insult. I will focus my mind on that 1 insult instead of the compliments before that.

 

[MattS]

11pm. Exactly 24 hours later, and I am... almost back to baseline.

Left ear: 2/10 ( but a bit higher pitched)
Right ear: 1/10
Head: 2/10 (but a bit higher pitched)

We'll see what tomorrow brings, but it looks like I've learned that I can survive a 90 dB party with plugs. Don't know that I'm going to seek out parties like this in the future, but certainly good to know I can attend when they come up. Pretty useful learning, me thinks.

(But I won't count my chickens write yet... Let's see what tomorrow brings.)

Night all.

 

[Sven]

Since you used proper protection the entire time and if your measuring was alright you should be fine. The elevation/increase you feel is most likely caused by your own worrying/thinking about it.

I'm - once again - experiencing the same. I think I'm battling it better this time, since I know that it most likely will recede back to normal.

That being said, there's no denying that Bill Bauer has a point with his false security talk. However, each occasion is different.

 

[Simon Czt]

So are the two ENTs below:



Might this explain the results of the poll below?
https://www.tinnitustalk.com/thread...orum-more-useful-than-your-ents-advice.28006/
where 85% of respondents thought that the advice of their ENT was useless or made their T worse (with almost 18% saying that this advice made their T worse).

Not if you compare the costs and benefits. The benefit of exposure is fun for several hours. The cost is the potential torture and regret lasting a lifetime.

Earplugs provide a false sense of security All of the Time:


You can ignore reality, but you won't be able to ignore the consequences of ignoring reality. Ultimately, it is those whose tinnitus is the loudest, who have tinnitus rule their life. Avoidance increases the chance that one's tinnitus won't be loud, and THAT is the way to ensure that tinnitus doesn't rule one's life.

Are you saying that it wouldn't be a shame if you taking a foolish risk were to lead to you getting debilitating tinnitus, making your body uninhabitable? Basically throwing your life away?

If you begin hitting a wall with a hammer, it takes some time before you make a hole in the wall. You might end up being better off getting a permanent increase Now, than not getting this feedback, and continuing harming your health and ending up with a louder permanent increase in the future.

Don't use my story as an argument, thank you

 

[MattS]

Since you used proper protection the entire time and if your measuring was alright you should be fine. The elevation/increase you feel is most likely caused by your own worrying/thinking about it.

I'm - once again - experiencing the same. I think I'm battling it better this time, since I know that it most likely will recede back to normal.

That being said, there's no denying that Bill Bauer has a point with his false security talk. However, each occasion is different.

Thanks Sven. My guess is some of the drum percussions got a little louder than my decibel meter caught, but it was a pretty tame event overall. Still had me nervous, of course; but I hoped I'd be okay

I agree that @Bill Bauer has a point. In fact, he often has several good points to make, and his caution is good for new tinnitus sufferers to heed. That said, he may be a bit over the top with his advice, and massively confuses anecdotal examples with empirical evidence. So new sufferers: heed his advice - but also know that life is not over, and that you can still have a social life if you act responsibly with your hearing.

 

[Bill Bauer]

Don't use my story as an argument, thank you

I won't go against your wishes, but please explain why you don't want the people to learn from your mistakes?

 

[Bill Bauer]

and massively confuses anecdotal examples with empirical evidence.

In the absence of empirical evidence, we have to use all of the information available to us.

So new sufferers: heed his advice - but also know that life is not over, and that you can still have a social life if you act responsibly with your hearing.

I agree with the above, but I guess we have different definitions of acting responsibly.

 

[John Mahan]

In the absence of empirical evidence, we have to use all of the information available to us.

I agree with the above, but I guess we have different definitions of acting responsibly.

I agree with Matt. Bill, you are an over protector which limits life experience needlessly. Michael FWIW is the same way with his protectionist policies. If you think about it, this is somewhat projected in a person's personality as they write on the forum. There are conservative people that like to stay under the bed during a lightening storm or under the bed generally because this is their comfort zone and others who want a fuller life and enjoy a good storm. So my view of your approach is lose lose because tinnitus may actually improve by a fuller life, not the opposite. This is my personal experience juxtaposed yours. No different than belief headphones are the boogie man...false limits applied without scientific data to support.

 

[Bill Bauer]

Bill, you are an over protector which limits life experience needlessly.

Oh, really? Here is the latest person whose experiences prove that experiencing regret as a result of "overprotecting" is preferable to the alternative:

My tinnitus was severe initially, but it went away completely but then it returned, slowly at first, as I continued to enjoy a few concerts and clubs (with earplugs and in moderation). I only continued to do these activities after an ENT told me that I should continue to do all the things I usually did, just wear protection - I first and foremost blame her for the situation I am now in (horrendously loud tinnitus and hyperacusis) from bad advice. I should have trusted my gut instinct and never went to another rock concert again, but no I trusted her advice... perhaps because I wanted to.

 

[MattS]

Oh, really? Here is the latest person whose experiences prove that experiencing regret as a result of "overprotecting" is preferable to the alternative:

Wait, Bill: is that another anecdote?

 

[MattS]

Re my status:

Today was actually a GREAT tinnitus day overall. Woke to low tinnitus, had low levels most of the day. Well below my normal baseline levels. It was grand.

At about 6pm my levels increased, and they've been slightly elevated since. Not terrible, but above the wonderfully low levels from the rest of the day. Just now I watched a Stranger Things episode that threw all kinds of nice alien sounds at me. Strangely soothing, in a "nature sounds from another world" kind of way.

Bottom line: I'd say I'm fully recovered from my birthday party on Sat night. And while I'll remain nervous any time I'm out and about in louder environments, the fact that I *can* be in those environments with proper protection is, truly, freeing. Tinnitus sucks, but it does not have to be a death sentence.

Be smart.
Be careful.
But be.

 

[Sven]

Re my status:

Today was actually a GREAT tinnitus day overall. Woke to low tinnitus, had low levels most of the day. Well below my normal baseline levels. It was grand.

At about 6pm my levels increased, and they've been slightly elevated since. Not terrible, but above the wonderfully low levels from the rest of the day. Just now I watched a Stranger Things episode that threw all kinds of nice alien sounds at me. Strangely soothing, in a "nature sounds from another world" kind of way.

Bottom line: I'd say I'm fully recovered from my birthday party on Sat night. And while I'll remain nervous any time I'm out and about in louder environments, the fact that I *can* be in those environments with proper protection is, truly, freeing. Tinnitus sucks, but it does not have to be a death sentence.

Be smart.
Be careful.
But be.

Congratulations.

 

[Bill Bauer]

Wait, Bill: is that another anecdote?

Yes.

Now, keep in mind that 1000 anecdotes won't prove that something is safe. However, all it takes is ONE anecdote to prove that something is Unsafe. Since loud debilitating tinnitus is basically equivalent to being burned alive for decades to come, if something increases the probability of permanent debilitating tinnitus, it is to be avoided.

But please feel free to ignore information. Go ahead, act as if you don't have tinnitus (and so these "normal" actions have a higher chance of rewarding you with debilitating tinnitus compared to their impact on a healthy person) and make my day.

 

[Bill Bauer]

the fact that I *can* be in those environments with proper protection is, truly, freeing.

If you were to study that "anecdote" (and other anecdotes just like it), you would see that it took him 11 years, but eventually he learned that he was wrong about thinking that he could be in those environments (even with "proper" protection). I guess you want to increase the probability that you will learn the hard way. Ok.

 

[Bill Bauer]

Tinnitus sucks, but it does not have to be a death sentence.

Right. So why are you increasing the probability that you will get the death sentence?

 

[John Mahan]

Oh, really? Here is the latest person whose experiences prove that experiencing regret as a result of "overprotecting" is preferable to the alternative:

Bill, have you been hanging out with Michael? Do you artificially assign causation to anecdotal accounts with no proven correlation between tinnitus going up and down considering 'all influencing factors'?

This is such a dangerous trap Bill and you should know better or at least acknowledge what you are doing. Matt understands it. Scientific method. Cause and effect.

People's tinnitus and hyperacusis can spike independently of noise exposure. What you leave out in your arm chair analogizing is...people contract tinnitus and hyperacusis all the time independent of any change in lifestyle. People's cells mutate and divide and people even die because of it. Certainly hearing changes as we all know full well. You wrongly accuse sound as the culprit.

You want to analogize about the brain and hearing? Take the brain and eye sight. Do you know what happens to the brain when denied sensory input? It dies on some level.
This has been proven with cats and certainly true of people. During the early part of a cat or person's life when the brain is forming. When amblyopia in artificially induced in test cases, the neural plasticity of the brain never recovers. Can't be reversed. Full sightedness is no longer possible. This is based upon sensory deprivation...in this case optical input to one eye. Denial of sensory input is bad for the brain.
https://www.nature.com/articles/eye199654


Environment is only one factor. The ENT is right. Your causation is wrong. And hence your and Michael's overprotection posture on coping with tinnitus. All you are doing is depriving yourself of life. An excuse to withdraw. Of course loud sound exposure is bad. It always has been.
My Audiologist agrees with the ENT, that sound deprivation is bad. Getting back to better hearing is partly related to a full sound signature in one's life.

 

[Bill Bauer]

People's tinnitus and hyperacusis can spike independently of noise exposure.

First of all, we are talking about serious and/or permanent changes to tinnitus. There is very little chance of it happening for no reason.

Second of all, (in the absence of scientific trials) the best person to judge the reason for the spike is the sufferer. They know what they had been exposed to, they have the most information about their own body. They are the ones who think that their spike didn't happen for no reason, but happened as a result of, say, noise exposure. They have good reasons for it (e.g., the spike beginning right after the noise exposure).

people contract tinnitus and hyperacusis all the time independent of any change in lifestyle.

Luckily this is a lot more rare than getting it as a result of some actual cause such as noise exposure or ototoxic medication. I would also guess that the vast majority of those cases is people's lifestyle catching up to them - someone killing 99% of the hair cells that they need to kill to get tinnitus with their lifestyle, and then being surprised when that last 1% of the cells die and they get tinnitus.

This is such a dangerous trap

Even more dangerous than ignoring information?!

 

[MattS]

Yes.

Now, keep in mind that 1000 anecdotes won't prove that something is safe. However, all it takes is ONE anecdote to prove that something is Unsafe.

I think we just figured out why we don't agree on much. And why you wouldn't make a good scientist.

Let me see if I can reframe this statement to add some additional validity:

Anecdotes can never prove anything, period.

1 to 1000 anecdotes can suggest that something *can be* safe (the more anecdotes, the more confidence in the conclusion).

1 to 1000 anecdotes can suggest that something *can be* dangerous (the more anecdotes, the more confidence in the conclusion).

Yes, that seems about right.

 

[John Mahan]

First of all, we are talking about serious and/or permanent changes to tinnitus. There is very little chance of it happening for no reason.

Second of all, (in the absence of scientific trials) the best person to judge the reason for the spike is the sufferer. They know what they had been exposed to, they have the most information about their own body. They are the ones who think that their spike didn't happen for no reason, but happened as a result of, say, noise exposure. They have good reasons for it (e.g., the spike beginning right after the noise exposure).

Luckily this is a lot more rare than getting it as a result of some actual cause such as noise exposure or ototoxic medication. I would also guess that the vast majority of those cases is people's lifestyle catching up to them - someone killing 99% of the hair cells that they need to kill to get tinnitus with their lifestyle, and then being surprised when that last 1% of the cells die and they get tinnitus.

Even more dangerous than ignoring information?!

Agree with Matt.
There was a thread which I even thought to extreme a while ago. It had to do with going to a concert with precautionary hearing protection. Concerts of course are known for their loud sound exposure which can be hazardous to even healthy ears.

To me, Eric Clapton the famous rock guitarist is kind of the poster boy for sound exposure. He said in spite of his tinnitus, he will never stop playing his guitar in concerts. He is 72 years old. Many musicians feel this way.

I am somewhat in the middle camp. You and Michael are in the protect camp which I believe is actually bad for hearing and tinnitus. I am in the normal sound exposure camp including listening to headphones at conservative dB level...well below 50 dB. And many famous rock musicians now elderly after a long life of sound over exposure and with tinnitus are still performing in concerts, I will likely no longer attend.

So there are gradations in terms of belief when it comes to avoidance of making tinnitus worse. Less can be more, and too much is bad of course but Goldilocks for me is where I like to be.

 

[Gabriel]

I mentioned like six or seven anecdote where people went to concert, some even without earplugs, and nothing happened to them, some were even happier and had less tinnitus, because of the relief of going to a concert.

Everyone is different, and I think little tests are not stupid. But by a little test I mean increasing the volume of the noise exposure little by little.
If you get a spike just by going to a pub then it's obvious you should not go to a concert. But if it's okay, then you could try a little louder place, for half an hour, go out and check if you're okay... Etc.
And if everything is fine, then you know you can enjoy.

Also all tinnitus are not related to noise issues. For example me. It's all in my brain. I got it by listening to my tinnitus in silence. And got other sounds idk the f#@k how, but not noise related, rather being in silence and hearing sounds and then be unable to unhear it.

And when I go out, to a loud place, I get a whistle, or less, fullness in hear. But it never affects my tinnitus. Actually each time my tinnitus disappears, weird enough .

Finally, I will just say that there is way of saying things. @Bill Bauer your way is quite bad. You just make people feel bad if they go out, and even emphasize on the fact they should have big regrets. You also belittle or make people feel stupid. And honestly, each time I read you, it's almost like you enjoy people making mistakes just to say "you were stupid, I told you". You are not comforting at all and very negative and dark. And I really think people need positivity here. I am really negative myself but not when I am here because I don't want people to feel it.

 

[Bill Bauer]

And why you wouldn't make a good scientist.

I AM a scientist. I presented one of my papers at the University of Sorbonne (the one making an appearance in Victor Hugo's Hunchback of Notre Dame). I am aware of the scientific method, and trust me I am aware of statistics. The question is what to do when scientific studies aren't available. The answer is not to completely ignore information.

 

[MattS]

I AM a scientist. I presented one of my papers at the University of Sorbonne (the one making an appearance in Victor Hugo's Hunchback of Notre Dame). I am aware of the scientific method, and trust me I am aware of statistics. The question is what to do when scientific studies aren't available. The answer is not to completely ignore information.

Good lord.

Well, then you have no excuse.

Then again, I said you wouldn't make a *good* scientist; till proven otherwise, that's gotta hold.

The answer is not to ignore; it is to consider it in measured fashion, in an amount representative of its likelihood of accuracy.

But clearly you already know that.

 

[Bartoli]

Tinnitus is not cancer - it doesn't multiply or metastasize. It is - ostensibly - about inflammation, which may increase, decrease or stay the same, in any given individual.

We don't really know that it's about inflammation. That's just one of the models. It recently gained a lot of attention due to some newspaper article. In the case of inflammation, wouldn't prednisolone work for long-term tinnitus?

If you're into Lenire, you're supporting the theory of hyperactivity in the brain, which is what rTMS is based on.
There's also central gain theory and the perception update model, etc...

It may very well be that the mechanism that gives rise to tinnitus will only be discovered after they succeed to cure it lessen it consistently. Sort of like in retrospect, the results confirm the model that science used to work out the treatment or drug that cured it. Which isn't unlike many drug discoveries i.e. penicillin.

That being said, I hope they find something sooner rather than later.

 

[Bill Bauer]

I said you wouldn't make a *good* scientist; till proven otherwise, that's gotta hold.

Not easy for a bad scientist to get invited to present their research at the University of Sorbonne.

The answer is not to ignore; it is to consider it in measured fashion, in an amount representative of its likelihood of accuracy.

Yes, you assign less significance to results for which there is no control, compared to the significance that you would assign to a scientific study. But in the absence of scientific studies, and IF what's at stake is basically an infinite amount that one risks losing, one better pay a LOT of attention to any change in the probability of losing that infinite amount.

 

[MattS]

We don't really know that it's about inflammation. That's just one of the models. It recently gained a lot of attention due to some newspaper article. In the case of inflammation, wouldn't prednisolone work for long-term tinnitus?

If you're into Lenire, you're supporting the theory of hyperactivity in the brain, which is what rTMS is based on.
There's also central gain theory and the perception update model, etc...

It may very well be that the mechanism that gives rise to tinnitus will only be discovered after they succeed to cure it lessen it consistently. Sort of like in retrospect, the results confirm the model that science used to work out the treatment or drug that cured it. Which isn't unlike many drug discoveries i.e. penicillin.

That being said, I hope they find something sooner rather than later.

Totally agree Bartoli - that's why I said inflammation was 'ostensibly' the cause.

Personally, I think the likelihood that NIT begins with inflammation is very high. Damaged cells = inflammation.

Whether an inflammatory process is behind chronic tinnitus or not is another question. I'm pretty partial to the hyper-responsive or synchronized-responsivess of auditory neurons myself. Given the electrical nature of the noise in many instances, it just seems likely that the cause is electrical in some form. But who really knows at this point...

Thanks for the comment - it's a helpful addition to the conversation.

 

[MattS]

Not easy for a bad scientist to get invited to present their research at the University of Sorbonne.

Another anecdote