Why Advise Against Headphones?

This debate will rage on for years to come.

Look, at the end of the day, you are dealing with sound pressure levels. Your eardrum doesn't care whether the source is a set of speakers, environmental sound, hearing aids, or headphones, etc. The SPL at your eardrum is all that matters. In other words, 60 dBA at the eardrum via headphones is no different to 60 dBA from any other sound source like conversational sound, for example. The sound wave hitting your ear would be scientifically identical and would carry the same amount of energy (ignoring infra and ultrasonic frequencies, of course).

There have been many studies conducted where special microphones were used to measure sound pressure levels at the eardrum. I'm not aware of any study that has suggested that equivalent low-level waveforms from headphones are different or inherently dangerous to human hearing. On a logical level, this makes sense as we are just following the laws of physics. If headphones are dangerous then so are hearing aids and white noise generators, that is unless they warp the space-time continuum somehow :p

The real risk with headphones is ear fatigue from overuse and a phenomenon whereby people can't help but slowly increase the volume over time without realising it. As the brain normalises the incoming sound it's really easy to get into dangerous territory unknowingly, and background noise can play a big part in this process. This is why both passive and active noise cancelling headphones were invented.

There is nothing out there that can validate the idea that headphones are inherently dangerous at safe volumes. @Bartoli is correct when he said it's flawed to use data exclusively from a site full of tinnitus sufferers. There is no control for this which makes any conclusion meaningless and anyone who attempts to interpret such data either way is likely only confirming their own bias. This is why the scientific method is so rigorous, it has to remove all potential for human bias which is rife in all experimentation.

If one feels more at ease by never using headphones again then I'd say that's a good course of action, but for someone to claim outright that headphones are inherently dangerous at safe levels (and time exposures) is a bit misguided, I feel. There is no evidence to support such an idea.

Statistical analysis is a minefield. There is no way that one could conclude that headphone usage was the cause of a worsening. What else was that person doing? If they all ate cheese as well, then maybe it was that? Did they all wear shoes that day? How do we know the shoes didn't cause it? Did they take antibiotics? Etc, etc.

This leads me to something I've already mentioned on here but I'll say it again. I was at a lecture once where the topic of statistical data and it's interpretation/analysis was spoken about at length. I also have a book about this which is a good read (forgot the title at the moment). There are so many facets to this that I couldn't possibly fit them all into a paragraph, but I think it's something worth knowing. One of the main points that sticks out, which he was very clear about, is when we automatically attribute a cause to a certain effect, and believe it to be true. Even when the evidence overwhelmingly suggests it. He simplified this with a demonstration that involved people who had experienced a yellowing of their teeth, that he labelled (A), and people with lung cancer that he labelled (C). He stated that the data would suggest - with a very high probability - that anyone with yellow teeth (A) would have a significantly higher chance of obtaining lung cancer than those with whiter teeth. This is where data can be deceiving and why its analysis is so difficult, because different lenses can be applied and truth can still be found. At this point he introduced smoking and labelled it (B), and only then does the scenario begin to make more sense. The yellowing of the teeth (A) becomes almost irrelevant once you add in smoking (B). Because it's then that you can see that smoking (B) causes yellow teeth (A), but it can also lead to lung cancer (C). The link between (A) and (C) is no longer important, but is still true. Smoking (B) is the real cause, but if (B) is not known or understood then you wouldn't have the information required to understand what is really happening.

This is why human biases are problematic.
Couldn't agree more. As I read the title I couldn't help but think: "The OP just opened Pandora's box"

I kind of knew what I was getting myself into when replying, but I still think correct information should be provided so the OP can make an informed decision. So I said what the heck and dove in. Even without a black belt in tinnitus.
 
Couldn't agree more. As I read the title I couldn't help but think: "The OP just opened Pandora's box"

I kind of knew what I was getting myself into when replying, but I still think correct information should be provided so the OP can make an informed decision. So I said what the heck and dove in. Even without a black belt in tinnitus.

A black belt in tinnitus takes a minimum of 60 years :D
 
Though I find this condescending, I'd rather keep an open mind and learn.

I'll repeat my question. Please provide me with some evidence of your claim about headphones being dangerous on low levels.

You find it condescending that I say you have a lot to learn? Then how on earth are you going to improve and acquire knowledge if you don't learn from your betters? I certainly did. I learnt from tinnitus veterans at forums and read books on tinnitus and done my own research. Corresponding and counselled people with noise induced tinnitus. This is how someone learns about this condition. Not by reading reams of data at websites written by health professionals that have never experienced tinnitus in their life, and are looked upon in awe because they have medical qualifications but have no experience of tinnitus, and the way it can affect a person's mental and emotional wellbeing.

You come here talking absolute rubbish and expect me to keep quiet when I know you are wrong. I do not need to prove anything to you but since you have asked politely, I will place below a post by @Alessandro Rossi which he submitted to this forum today on another thread titled: Headphones - white noise Generators and tinnitus. I hope Alessandro doesn't mind. In addition to this, I suggest you peruse some of the many posts in this forum, and read where members regret returning to using headphones even at low volume, because their tinnitus has increased.

Now, I will not be continuing with this correspondence. Even though you have been polite and to a certain extent respectful, please accept my apologies for not answering any future enquires you make on this topic.

Michael

Alessandro Rossi

I'd like to share my experience. I have tinnitus and hyperacusis, bought a pair of good "audiophile" headphones (sennheiser hd660s) for my hifi system. Sadly I soon discovered that even at low volumes both my T and H got worse. Equalizing a bit was indeed helpful, cutting superhigh frequencies, but still painful. Had to stop.
Also proximity is REALLY influent to me. Listening at 50db at 1 meter and 50 db at 3 meters does A LOT of difference
 
@Jack V

Thank you for your kind comments.

The advice that I give about headphone use and tinnitus is for people that are specifically affected by: Noise induced tinnitus. Also known as tinnitus caused by exposure to loud noise. On your Avatar is reads: Tinnitus caused by entropy. I believe this is a gradual decline in hearing that has resulted in you developing tinnitus? Therefore, your tinnitus is not noise induced.

The ear canal is approximately 26mm in length 1 inch. A headphone placed over the outer ear or an earbud inserted into the entrance of the canal and music played, produces airwaves/sound pressure. These airwaves only have one course of travel and that is straight towards the eardrum. Behind the eardrum the cochlea is situated. People that have suffered an acoustic trauma/noise induced tinnitus the cochlea seems to be more sensitive to sound even after habituation has been reached. I believe the reason for this is because a lot of people that develop noise induced tinnitus, have some oversensitivity to sound known as hyperacusis.

People that have tinnitus which wasn't caused by exposure to loud noise do not usually have hyperacusis as a result of exposure to loud noise. However, I am aware some do experience oversensitivity to sound which may be classified as hyperacusis.

The severity of hyperacusis when caused by exposure to loud noise does seem to vary between people. However, even after it has been treated or improves by itself and a person no longer experiences oversensitivity to sounds. For some reason the auditory system has been affected in such a way it's not like it was prior to the onset of Noise induced tinnitus. One could say it's like being cut by a knife, although the wound heals a scar remains. This is what I have surmised having corresponded with people at various tinnitus forums and spoken to on the telephone that have noise induced tinnitus. Many of these people have returned to using headphones and used them at low volume and found their tinnitus has got worse. This may not happen immediately but once it does, the tinnitus doesn't usually return to its previous baseline level. In contrast to this some people with noise induced tinnitus use headphones and suffer no ill effects.

I have corresponded with a lot of people with noise induced tinnitus, who have returned to using headphones and regretted it because their tinnitus has increased. There are many posts in this forum written by people with NIT that have returned to using headphones after they have habituated and regretted it. I just don't think its worth risking your health, knowing how debilitating tinnitus can be when it reaches severe levels and this is sustained.

Music played through speakers can cause tinnitus to spike and increase to a new permanent level. However, providing a person with noise induced tinnitus, is careful of not being exposed to overly loud sounds from speakers they will usually be alright. Sound from speakers is dispersed over a wider area before reaching the ear. One must still exercise caution and don't put faith in noise reducing earplugs and think, going to a club or concert where loud sounds are played all night they will be safe. Nothing more could be further from the truth. If external sound is loud enough, it can pass through the head and be transferred to the inner ear by bone conduction and cause irritation spiking the tinnitus, which could increase it to a new permanent level.

ENT doctors are physicians they are not tinnitus experts. In fact they do not treat tinnitus, they treat underlying medical conditions within the auditory system Ear, Nose, Throat, that is causing the tinnitus. They treat them medically or surgically. When there is no underlying medical condition causing the tinnitus as in Noise induced tinnitus, the patient should be referred to Audiology. Here, they will see either a Hearing Therapist or Audiologist that specialises in Tinnitus and Hyperacusis treatment and management. This is the current practice in the United Kingdom. I do not know the procedures used in other parts of the world for people with Noise induced tinnitus.

Treatment for noise induced tinnitus at Audiology, can include: TRT (or elements of it) CBT, Counselling, Mindfullness, Relaxation therapy, Sound therapy using white noise generators, hearing aids and medication. One or a combination of these treatments may be used.

Using headphones as you have been told by your doctors will probably be fine for you. Those with NIT I advise caution.

As I have said ENT doctors are not tinnitus experts they are physicians. Therefore, some will tell tinnitus patients what they want to hear, without knowing the risks a person takes using headphones that has Noise induced tinnitus. Most of these doctors do not have tinnitus. Those that do probably have it mild and it may not be noise induced. I doubt the majority of them have experienced tinnitus at the levels most people experience in this forum. Therefore, how can they possibly understand how debilitating this condition can be for someone affected with it? Most of what they know about tinnitus is from consultation with their patients but they have little perhaps no experience of living with Noise induced tinnitus.

It is the reason so many people at tinnitus forums say: "My ENT doctor doesn't understand what I am going through". Some people give ENT doctors a sentimental reverence because they are medically qualified but this does not mean they know about tinnitus. They are physicians and understand the anatomy of the Ear, Nose, Throat. They treat these organs medically or surgically and I believe most will do this to the best of their ability, because this is their area of expertise.

My ENT doctor is an Audiovestibular physician with a Phd. I have a lot of respect for her and we have a good rapport. She once told me that I know more about tinnitus than her for the simple reason she has never experienced tinnitus. She also said ENT doctors do not treat tinnitus, they treat underlying medical problems that cause it. She continued and said: When there is no underlying medical problem found to causing the tinnitus, the patient is referred to Audiology to see either a Hearing Therapist or Audiologist that specialises in Tinnitus and Hyperacusis treatment and management. I also learnt that most (not all) of these health professionals were either born with tinnitus or acquired it at some time in their life. My Hearing Therapist who I saw for TRT treatment was born with tinnitus.

This is particularly useful in the treatment of TRT and CBT where counselling is given for tinnitus. In my opinion, unless a person has tinnitus, I do not believe they can give high quality tinnitus counselling. One can read about how tinnitus can affect a person and what can cause it but unless they experience tinnitus they cannot understand it.

Michael
Thanks for your response.

To clarify:

My cause is noise-induced.

It was an audiologist with expertise in tinnitus who suggested I use my AirPods Pros as a way to periodically add sound enrichment, similar to how I might use hearing aids. I would of course keep volume levels low. Nonetheless, the source of that advice was indeed an audiologist with tinnitus expertise.

I'm still relatively new to this, learning as much as I can, and trying to make sense of all the information I'm encountering. And even though I try to understand different points of view, I absolutely appreciate the experience that you are sharing and take it to heart.

Incidentally, I wonder if the problem with headphones is that there's simply more potential for abuse, and abuse is less obvious to the user.

(Other than using noise-cancelling headphones while flying, I have not yet used headphones or AirPods for sound enrichment).
 
Then how on earth are you going to improve and acquire knowledge if you don't learn from your betters?
I don't mind learning.
But really, referring to yourself as the better one is not going to win you this argument. It does show how you think about the people on here. Get off your high horse.
You come here talking absolute rubbish and expect me to keep quiet
I don't expect you to keep quiet. Where did I say that?
I do not need to prove anything to you but since you have asked politely, I will place below a post by @Alessandro Rossi
It's another piece of anecdotal evidence. On a tinnitus forum. Please learn the difference between that and proof.
In addition to this, I suggest you peruse some of the many posts in this forum, and read where members regret returning to using headphones even at low volume, because their tinnitus has increased.
Still anecdotal evidence. Ed has explained in his post why human bias is responsible. I suggest you peruse his posts to gain some knowledge on the subject.
 
Thanks for your response.

To clarify:

My cause is noise-induced.

It was an audiologist with expertise in tinnitus who suggested I use my AirPods Pros as a way to periodically add sound enrichment, similar to how I might use hearing aids. I would of course keep volume levels low. Nonetheless, the source of that advice was indeed an audiologist with tinnitus expertise.

HI @Jack V

Thank you for the clarification.

I do understand your predicament and therefore you will have to make a decision. Whether to follow the advice of your Audiologist who you say is a tinnitus expert. It is not up to me to say whether I am an expert in tinnitus but I will say I have a lot of experience in it. Not just my own as I have mentioned throughout this thread and elsewhere on this forum but corresponding with people affected by tinnitus, at other forums and counselling them with this condition. Before I leave I would like to tell you a short story and if you want to check its veracity, as proof that I am not making it up. Then please search through my posts for I have mentioned it a few times.

A while back someone telephoned me in a lot of distress. Her Audiologist who supposedly was a tinnitus expert, advised her to play music through headphones at low level, a few times a day to help treat her tinnitus and hyperacusis. She said both the tinnitus and hyperacusis increased to a level they became intolerable and she had to stop using the headphones. When she relayed this information to the Audiologist, to my utter astonishment this so called expert, advised her to continue using these dangerous devices. Thankfully she didn't and eventually recovered.

I wish you well.

Michael

PS: You might find some of my articles in the links below helpful.

https://www.tinnitustalk.com/threads/new-to-tinnitus-what-to-do.12558/
https://www.tinnitustalk.com/threads/tinnitus-a-personal-view.18668/
https://www.tinnitustalk.com/threads/hyperacusis-as-i-see-it.19174/
https://www.tinnitustalk.com/threads/acquiring-a-positive-mindset.23969/
https://www.tinnitustalk.com/threads/tinnitus-and-the-negative-mindset.23705/
https://www.tinnitustalk.com/threads/the-habituation-process.20767/
https://www.tinnitustalk.com/threads/is-positivity-important.23150/
https://www.tinnitustalk.com/threads/the-complexities-of-tinnitus-and-hyperacusis.25733/
 
Fact is, why to risk? If someone have noise induced T and H, maybe by default should avoid headphones, considering the several witnesses. Or at least be supercautious. Anyway one can still enjoy music and life without headphones I think. do I mind not being able to use them? Yes I do:)
 
Fact is, why to risk? If someone have noise induced T and H, maybe by default should avoid headphones, considering the several witnesses. Or at least be supercautious. Anyway one can still enjoy music and life without headphones I think.

Well said @Alessandro Rossi

I haven't used headphones since I got tinnitus 24 years ago and don't miss them. It is quite strange looking back, as I used to listen to my music a lot through high quality Beyer headphones being an Audiophile. I now enjoy music listening through speakers and to be honest it's more realistic and engaging. I realize most people are not an Audiophile but I believe you are since you bought high-end Sennheiser headphones.

A good HI-FI system when set up correctly will create a three dimensional soundstage. The speakers will completely disappear and the listener will be at one with the music. All you will hear is music which will have height, width and depth within the soundstage. One will easily be able to pick-out where the musicians were placed during the recording, as there will be clear demarcations between instruments. Audiophiles call this process synergy. As the listener engages more into the music, they will be transported into another realm metaphorically speaking and the experience some say can be ethereal and I sense this. Goose bumps will be felt on the arms, legs and hairs on the back of the neck will be raised. This is what a good Audio system can create when setup correctly.

Michael
 
One's tinnitus could worsen regardless of headphone use, but it would be easy for that person to blame the headphones if they were being used (assuming they were used at safe levels). This would be an assumption, however, and the worsening could be due to any number of things such as a muscular issue, a postural problem (tech neck), lack of sleep, a vascular issue, a drug issue, food or drink related, an allergy, stress, randomness, etc, etc. Without a controlled experiment that's blinded to remove bias, it's just guesswork.

I've never been a huge headphone user per se, I mainly used them to mix and record back in the day. Nowadays, I mainly use them on long haul flights and for listening to certain content. For example, I used headphones to review some of the early podcast edits and to listen to the audio for the interview with Gaby Olthuis's mother. I also used them when I did the interview with CJ Wildheart. The podcast can't be done properly without the use of headphones which means all those involved with the interviewing will have had to have used them.

My noise-induced tinnitus hasn't become worse whilst using headphones (at safe levels) and I've used them a fair few times. Of course, this is equally anecdotal and means nothing, scientifically speaking. There may be something we are overlooking which means that headphones are dangerous at low volume, but it seems unlikely and until there's evidence to confirm one way or another it's all just speculation.

I would advise that people do their own research and make their own decisions, but if one is anxiety-prone then it may be best to stop using them. If an unrelated spike starts on a day that one is using headphones then it will be difficult for that person to believe that the headphones weren't the cause, especially after reading these threads.

I remember having a horrendous tinnitus day that just happened to be the day after I avoided going to a party (in the earlier days) and I remember thinking how thankful I was that I didn't go. The reason is that I knew I would have had a meltdown and blamed myself for going as I would have had no doubt that the noise was the cause. The guilt would have driven my anxiety into the stratosphere which would have no doubt fuelled my tinnitus spike. I remember talking about this incident with Jack Straw whilst doing a podcast (ironically whilst using headphones). It's such a complex condition that attempting to understand what affects it and why it fluctuates is futile at times, and it's easy to contribute cause to the last thing we did that was perceived as being dangerous (even if it wasn't).

It's just the same as if a spike randomly came on whilst taking antibiotics. It would be easy to constitute blame to them even if it had nothing to do with them.

In summary, tinnitus can be a minefield and looking for answers sometimes is not as straightforward as one would think. It's a personal decision whether one wants to continue using headphones or not but just remember that there are inherent risks in doing so which have already been discussed. If you do use them, keep the volume low and don't use them for long periods of time.
 
As a general rule, the more I avoid loud places/situations, the more I get better, or feel better, or at least the condition keeps stationary.
dangerous things not necessarily loud but still painful TO ME are headphones and telephone calls with the device leaning the ear.
 
As a general rule, the more I avoid loud places/situations, the more I get better, or feel better, or at least the condition keeps stationary.
dangerous things not necessarily loud but still painful TO ME are headphones and telephone calls with the device leaning the ear.

You have the right approach @Alessandro Rossi and know what is right or wrong for you. That I admire unlike some of the folly that some members do, and when things go wrong say: I didn't know.....

Take care
Michael
 
You have the right approach @Alessandro Rossi and know what is right or wrong for you. That I admire unlike some of the folly that some members do, and when things go wrong say: I didn't know.....

Take care
Michael

It's a bit harsh to call people's decisions in life folly, Michael. You should know better than anyone how unpredictable this condition can be and one still has to attempt to enjoy the life they have. A person's decisions are not always reckless. Some can experience a worsening whilst living like a recluse so there are no easy answers.
 
As a general rule, the more I avoid loud places/situations, the more I get better, or feel better, or at least the condition keeps stationary.
dangerous things not necessarily loud but still painful TO ME are headphones and telephone calls with the device leaning the ear.

This makes total sense, Alessandro, as you appear to have hyperacusis. If headphones cause you pain then don't use them.
 
Well said @Alessandro Rossi

I haven't used headphones since I got tinnitus 24 years ago and don't miss them. It is quite strange looking back, as I used to listen to my music a lot through high quality Beyer headphones being an Audiophile. I now enjoy music listening through speakers and to be honest it's more realistic and engaging. I realize most people are not an Audiophile but I believe you are since you bought high-end Sennheiser headphones.

A good HI-FI system when set up correctly will create a three dimensional soundstage. The speakers will completely disappear and the listener will be at one with the music. All you will hear is music which will have height, width and depth within the soundstage. One will easily be able to pick-out where the musicians were placed during the recording, as there will be clear demarcations between instruments. Audiophiles call this process synergy. As the listener engages more into the music, they will be transported into another realm metaphorically speaking and the experience some say can be ethereal and I sense this. Goose bumps will be felt on the arms, legs and hairs on the back of the neck will be raised. This is what a good Audio system can create when setup correctly.

Michael
I guess the question that keeps circling back to me is why your position on headphones does not match your position on speakers. Quite the opposite, you listen to music through speakers loud enough to generate goosebumps.

Aren't you concerned your speakers could also exacerbate your tinnitus?
 
Aren't you concerned your speakers could also exacerbate your tinnitus?

@Jack V

No I am not because I know what my ears can tolerate and do not listen at sound levels which I know are going to cause me harm. Everything I wrote in my previous post about my HI-FI is true. If you go to any Audiophile forum people will tell you a similar story.

A good Audio system creates music which doesn't have to be played at loud listening levels to be enjoyed, especially classical and opera. I also listen to American Jazz fusion: Lee Ritenour, Michael Franks, Fourplay, Diane Schuur and many others that are regularly played at 60 to 70 decibels without causing me any problems.

I have completely habituated to my tinnitus. I once had severe painful hyperacusis that was cured using white noise generators, as part of TRT 24 years ago and it has remained this way.

Michael
 
WNG=earbuds. As you say you're an audiophile, I hope you understand this.

White noise generators are not earbuds. If you wish to engage in correspondence with me, then please address me with respect and in the proper manner. If you do not then I will not reply and may consider placing you on my ignore list. I am not here to duel with you or anyone else. I have discussed this matter at length with you already and no longer wish to continue with it.

Goodbye and I wish you well.
Michael
 
White noise generators are not earbuds. If you wish to engage in correspondence with me, then please address me with respect and in the proper manner. If you do not then I will not reply and may consider placing you on my ignore list. I am not here to duel with you or anyone else. I have discussed this matter at length with you already and no longer wish to continue with it.

Goodbye and I wish you well.
Michael

With all due respect, Michael, you don't discuss these things at length or with any decorum. When someone politely gives a counterpoint to one of your arguments you often become rude and discourteous. If you disagree with something then you should refute the points being made by explaining why they are wrong instead of being obnoxiously rude. Where are your manners? And what is the proper way to address you in this context?

It's fine to disagree, but to be petty enough to threaten to ignore Bartoli for stating that WNGs are similar to earbuds is just childish.

WNGs send sound waves directly into one's ear canal similar to how hearing aids and earphones work. I know you will say that white noise doesn't have the same dynamic range as music, but if the levels are kept low then what is the difference? The peaks can be kept in check by using a safety limiter, or one can just be vigilant about the overall volume and exposure time. Fundamentally, however, they are all introducing sound waves directly into the ear canal. What matters is the amplitude of the waveform at the eardrum and not the delivery method.
 
White noise generators are not earbuds. If you wish to engage in correspondence with me, then please address me with respect and in the proper manner. If you do not then I will not reply and may consider placing you on my ignore list. I am not here to duel with you or anyone else. I have discussed this matter at length with you already and no longer wish to continue with it.

Goodbye and I wish you well.
Michael
Michael

I don't see how I've addressed you with disrespect but if I did, accept my apologies.
I will still reply in public because I think what I have to say could be valuable to the OP and others. It is in many threads that I see you advising people to be cautious with headphones on low levels. You go on to ask people about their history, and often come to the conclusion that they have noise-induced tinnitus and it's the headphones that did them in. I mostly cringe when confronted with the flawed reasoning behind it, and I decided to challenge some of the views you present as the truth. In writing a public answer, I at least have a written account of why I don't agree with your views on low-level listening through headphones. Rest assured, I'm not going to do this outside of this thread, but somehow it feels wrong to keep silent when false information is spread over and over on this forum, because I feel new sufferers have the right to reliable information.

I see in your posts that you believe the distance to someone's eardrum and the degree to which the ear has been closed off matters. It does not.

The only thing that matters in your perception of sound is the decibel level at the eardrum.
The absolute energy required to evoke such a level depends on the proximity to the eardrum. That is why earbuds only need tiny diaphragms, headphones need larger, and speakers larger still. There's also the degree of movement a diaphragm can achieve that matters. (Long-throw subwoofers don't need super large diameters to achieve adequate low-end.) As an audiophile I suppose you understand this. If earbuds would cause some unwanted and dangerous buildup of frequencies in the ear, this would manifest itself as frequencies being overemphasized, throwing the whole listening experience out of balance. You would notice this, much in the same way that a listening room could have unwanted resonation until acoustically treated. I saw you had this done in your house, so I suppose you understand my point. The person who treated your room must be someone whose advice you appreciate, so maybe you can present him with your views on low-level listening through headphones?

I'll give another example. The absolute energy of a rocket taking off is enough to kill someone nearby, or deafen someone miles away. While headphones can't kill, they could deafen someone after a long exposure, even though the absolute energy they can produce is far lower than the rocket. This is another example of how only the decibel level measured AT THE EAR is of any value in discussing whether something is potentially dangerous.

If you don't accept this, then we should rewrite the physics books. That is how science works. You cannot just cherrypick what you believe in. At the end of the day, gravity still matters to you whether you believe in it or not.
Your standpoint is based only on accounts of people and bears no connection to physics.

By all means, I'll advise anyone to listen to their bodies and if something is giving them discomfort, then they should stop doing that. Whether it's headphones, speakers, and so on.

If one day there is irrefutable evidence that I was wrong, I'll gladly accept that, because that's also how science works, it begs to be challenged in an ever-ongoing quest to come as close to the truth as possible.
For now, there is nothing pointing in this direction.

An open mind doesn't take offense in being challenged and proven wrong. An open mind is glad to change his views as he is presented with the evidence.
The way in which you present your views as the truth, going on to call yourself "the better" in this discussion and telling others they have much to learn, thereby implying you have exclusive rights to the truth, is just baffling to me.

Throwing a lot of money towards your hi-fi system doesn't make you an expert either, much in the same way any MAMIL can buy the exact bike Chris Froome rode in the TDF, but it still doesn't mean they have anything of importance to say on how to win said race.

All the best
 
I certainly don't agree with Michael Leigh on everything, TRT being one example, but generally I think his advice on headphones is very sensible. Why risk it when even at low volumes they present some risk, especially as its all too easy to accidentally increase the volume level to more than you intended.

WNGs are a completely different device to headphones and although they may well not help tinnitus and may actually aggravate some people's tinnitus, they certainly don't present the risk that headphones do.
 
With all due respect, Michael, you don't discuss these things at length or with any decorum. When someone politely gives a counterpoint to one of your arguments you often become rude and discourteous. If you disagree with something then you should refute the points being made by explaining why they are wrong instead of being obnoxiously rude. Where are your manners? And what is the proper way to address you in this context?

It's fine to disagree, but to be petty enough to threaten to ignore Bartoli for stating that WNGs are similar to earbuds is just childish.

WNGs send sound waves directly into one's ear canal similar to how hearing aids and earphones work. I know you will say that white noise doesn't have the same dynamic range as music, but if the levels are kept low then what is the difference? The peaks can be kept in check by using a safety limiter, or one can just be vigilant about the overall volume and exposure time. Fundamentally, however, they are all introducing sound waves directly into the ear canal. What matters is the amplitude of the waveform at the eardrum and not the delivery method.
Not to mention that a lot of music has very limited dynamic range because of compression.
 
Not to mention that a lot of music has very limited dynamic range because of compression.

Modern music is compressed to hell. You only have to look at the waveform of a modern song to see that most look like a solid block in comparison to the dynamic forms of the past. Too many got caught up in the loudness war and ruined mixes by brick wall mastering their records.
 
WNGs are a completely different device to headphones and although they may well not help tinnitus and may actually aggravate some people's tinnitus, they certainly don't present the risk that headphones do.

They both transfer energy in the form of a wave by vibrating air particles. I agree that the risk for misuse with headphones is clearly much greater, but if both devices are used at the same weighted decibel ratios then there is no difference.

There are many different kinds of wearable WNGs and this isn't discussed very much when comparisons are made. Some are in-ear and block off the ear canal much the same as earbuds do. The behind-the-ear variety transfer sound through either an open tube or an earbud-style adapter. If we compare like-for-like as measured at the eardrum, what is the difference between using headphones to deliver a 60 dBA sound and a WNG? Do the air particles behave differently when they realise it's a WNG that's creating the energy to move them as opposed to something else? If they both have the same amount of energy being transferred then how is this possible?

This would be like saying that one object weighs more than another even though the scales say they are both the same.

This gives a rough idea of the decibel output of various WNGs:

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37A067C0-0EB0-48CE-A601-D82282833225.jpeg


The idea that WNGs can be worn for many hours of the day "safely" but that any form of headphone is dangerous no matter how low the volume is nonsensical and is a perfect example of cognitive dissonance.

WNGs are also incredibly expensive for what they are. I've seen people paying £220 - £500 + for what is essentially a flimsy piece of plastic delivering various kinds of sounds to the ear. I'm aware they are programmable but that's still a lot of money for the sake of convenience.

BTW, I'm not against the use of WNGs in any way. If they help someone then I'm all for it.
 
I don't see how I've addressed you with disrespect but if I did, accept my apologies.

@Bartoli

Thank you for your apology which I accept. It was the manner in which your quote/statement to me was worded which I took a dislike to.

I am here to help people that are having difficulty coping with tinnitus that was caused by Noise trauma because that is what I am familiar with. There are other types of tinnitus caused by an underlying medical problem within the auditory system but I rarely advise on this. Occasionally I recommend these people to use sound enrichment and try relaxation exercises as a way of reducing stress, which can help the tinnitus to be less intrusive. Ultimately, tinnitus caused by an underlying medical condition needs to be treated by an ENT doctor, either medically or surgically, medication may also be required. A person may need a referral to an Audiologist for hearing aid/s, counselling.

The advice I give to people in this forum affected by noise induced tinnitus is based on personal experience and treatments that I have had for this condition. Namely, TRT which involved counselling and the use of white noise generators, which I still use whenever I feel the need. My views and opinions on treating and managing noise induced tinnitus is also shared by people seasoned to it and fellow tinnitus veterans. I have had this condition for many years and my reasons for being here and to be at other tinnitus forums is to help people as I was once helped.

I appreciate my advice may not sit well with some people and that is perfectly fine as they are entitled to their opinion. However, I want it understood, I am not here to engage in long winded arguments simply for the sake of writing or having to prove myself repeatedly over a topic, particularly the one on headphone use and those affected with Noise induced tinnitus. I have mentioned many times in this forum, some people with NIT are not adversely affected by headphone use at low volume but many are. Peruse some of the many posts in this forum where people regret returning to using headphones because their tinnitus has increased.

Some people in this forum offer no help because their main agenda is to cause as much disruption and discord as possible towards anyone that tries, and especially anyone encouraging positivity and to incorporate that into one's life. Treatments such as TRT, CBT are quickly denounced and said to be ineffective yet many of these people have never tried them. Anyone that dares to say they are having success with a particular treatment. At lightening speed those with a negative mindset rush to retrieve information from websites and paste into this forum to refute such claims.

It is for this reason I agree with a lot of what Professor Pawel Jastreboff said in his video and something I have known for a considerable length of time and wrote about it in my post: The Good The Bad and The Ugly in March 2017 https://www.tinnitustalk.com/threads/the-good-the-bad-and-the-ugly.20467/

Michael

PS: I hope this matter can now be put to rest.
 
Having worn white noise generators for extended periods as well as headphones I can confirm they are completely different - wngs will not cause tinnitus to be raised for extended periods though they might aggravate tinnitus. Headphones, on the other hand you might be able to get away on low volumes but the potential to cause raised tinnitus for an extended period by accidentally turning the volume higher (even for a short time) is great and therefore best avoided.

Of course it's each forum member's decision but over the seven years I've been a member of tinnitus talk I've seen plenty of members who thought they had their headphone use under control live to regret their decision.
 

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