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Why TRT Fails People ...

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#31
ampumpkin said:
you can also take your negativity elsewhere :)
Click to expand...

I will do just that - so don't worry; I already "announced" my departure about 3 weeks ago:

https://www.tinnitustalk.com/threads/am-101-tactt1-results-released.1994/page-54#post-66073

But some days ago, while tracking down a few pieces of info I had myself posted on TT for a person who has suffered from severe hearing loss since early childhood (she found me via facebook), I noticed the free TRT publicity had gotten a little bit out of control here on the board. So I decided to make a brief return and "straighten things out" a little bit; objectivity is evidently lacking with some members on this board - that's for sure (not aimed at you necessarily).

You may not like me - quite clearly - but I have provided more insight on tinnitus than any single doctor in the entire world (believe it or not - and if you don't, then feel free to ask Markku for a neutral opinion). Obtaining those "insights" nearly cost me my life at one point:

https://www.tinnitustalk.com/threads/hypnotherapy.4386/#post-43132

And it isn't over yet. But wherever my journey into the world of experimental medicine takes me next, it will be a trip that I travel alone.
 
#32
attheedgeofscience said:
I will do just that - so don't worry; I already "announced" my departure about 3 weeks ago:

https://www.tinnitustalk.com/threads/am-101-tactt1-results-released.1994/page-54#post-66073

But some days ago, while tracking down a few pieces of info I had myself posted on TT for a person who has suffered from severe hearing loss since early childhood (she found me via facebook), I noticed the free TRT publicity had gotten a little bit out of control here on the board. So I decided to make a brief return and "straighten things out" a little bit; objectivity is evidently lacking with some members on this board - that's for sure (not aimed at you necessarily).

You may not like me - quite clearly - but I have provided more insight on tinnitus than any single doctor in the entire world (believe it or not - and if you don't, then feel free to ask Markku for a neutral opinion). Obtaining those "insights" nearly cost me my life at one point:

https://www.tinnitustalk.com/threads/hypnotherapy.4386/#post-43132

And it isn't over yet. But wherever my journey into the world of experimental medicine takes me next, it will be a trip that I travel alone.
Click to expand...

Well the thing that puzzles me, is that if TRT helps people (and evidently it does), then why is it such a big deal if it is "advertized" on here? I wouldn't care if TRT, CBT, Neuromonics, retigabine, etc are "advertized" on here if they are giving people relief and giving them their life "back".

It seems like you're so against a method that works for a lot of people; so perhaps it's not for everyone, but what method works 100% of the time for everyone in every situation for any health problem?

Quite honestly, if I did TRT and it worked for me, then I seriously wouldn't care if every hard-earned penny of mine went straight into Dr. Nagler's bank account. As far as I would be concerned it would be money well spent. (BTW, I know that Dr. Nagler has already said he doesn't make any money off of TRT. But my point is simply to state that to me, it would be irrelevant whether he did or not. What would be relevant for me is that I get results that help me move on so tinnitus doesn't control my life.)

I just don't understand why you're so against habituation. Sure it's not ideal. But if it comes down to habituation and moving on with my life versus remaining miserable and letting T control my life, then I'll take habituation every time. Those two options exist. You know what doesn't exist an as option as of right now? A cure. When/if a cure comes up, I'll take that over habituation, but we're not there yet. And I refuse to let T control my life until one is found.
 
#34
Dr. Nagler said:
Right. But some folks try it anyway.

To them I say, "More power to you." The only thing I ask is that if they succeed, as a few of them do, they not consider it to be a TRT success. And if they fail, as the overwhelming majority do, they not consider it to be a TRT failure. Why? Because "self-TRT" is not TRT at all.

You cannot imagine the number of folks around who claim that TRT "didn't work" for them - but who when questioned about what they did and for how long they did it wind up admitting that whatever it was that didn't work for them, it wasn't TRT.

I am going to back out of the thread at this point.

Best to all -

Dr. Stephen Nagler
Click to expand...
I hope I did not say anything wrong. Why not to continue the discussion?
 
#35
It would be more productive if some people would agree to disagree and let it go. We are all entitled to our opinions but we don't need to bring hostility to the board. I have been helped by Dr. Nagler's advice on this board (not TRT related) and I also find ATEOS's posts very interesting when he is not trying to dispute Dr. Nagler) and don't want to see anyone leave the board because of negativity and arguments. We have new people who suffer and this kind of discord doesn't help them. Just my two cents.
 
#39
MattK said:
It seems like you're so against a method that works for a lot of people; so perhaps it's not for everyone, but what method works 100% of the time for everyone in every situation for any health problem?
Click to expand...

Let me try to explain in other words to you my friend. (and correct me if i'm wrong ofc)

The problem here is that Dr.Nagler insists that reading and understanding the TRT book and then self-administering what you learned, is NOT TRT, and furthermore, that MOST attempts at this DIY will result in FAILURE.
Dr.Nagler insists that in order to get TRT and succeed in TRT, is to go see a TRT practicioner.

ATEOS was asking Dr.Nagler, what makes the 3 hour session a patient will get with a TRT clinician, so different from DIY TRT taken from the book by Dr.Jastreboff.

So, what raises our eyebrows here is why Dr.Nagler isn't helping people WITH TRT on tinnitus forums.

I hope that cleared things up.
 
#40
dan said:
Let me try to explain in other words to you my friend. (and correct me if i'm wrong ofc)

The problem here is that Dr.Nagler insists that reading and understanding the TRT book and then self-administering what you learned, is NOT TRT, and furthermore, that MOST attempts at this DIY will result in FAILURE.
Dr.Nagler insists that in order to get TRT and succeed in TRT, is to go see a TRT practicioner.

ATEOS was asking Dr.Nagler, what makes the 3 hour session a patient will get with a TRT clinician, so different from DIY TRT taken from the book by Dr.Jastreboff.

So, what raises our eyebrows here is why Dr.Nagler isn't helping people WITH TRT on tinnitus forums.

I hope that cleared things up.
Click to expand...

Ok, but my post to ATEOS wasn't merely regarding his post on this thread. But it seems to be a re-occurring theme with him that he is hostile towards TRT, Dr. Nagler and the concept of habituation. That goes beyond what he has said on this thread.

For whatever reason, whenever Dr. Nagler mentions TRT or habituation, ATEOS isn't too far behind to bash Dr. Nagler. I can respect ATEOS's point of view. But I cannot understand why he can't say, "Ok, well, perhaps TRT and habituation work for some people, and I'm happy about that. But for me and other people, it will be something else".

I mean, we're all trying to get relief here and get control of our lives again. If that happens through TRT, CBT, Neuromonics, Neuromodulation, experimental drugs, etc then who really cares?
 
#42
Hey Dan thanks for the input, I cant speak for Dr.Nagler but ive seen him use this analogy, if your going to have heart surgery you want someone who has done it before and has a good track record with it. Obviously T is not the same as having surgery, but i would like to add to this that many people get angry that Drs. do not take T seriously . When i see Dr.Nagler make comparisons like this, to me it shows me how very seriously he does take it.

I personally have never gotten the impression that he believes DIY habituation will result in failure but again i cant speak for him. He has said over and over again that he believes the counseling that goes along with TRT is incredibly important, someone who is suffering from severe tinnitus is probably not in the best frame of mind to council themselves out of that situation.

So to me, its no mystery, he says these things are not TRT because he does not think that these things are TRT. Who are we to tell him hes wrong for his opinion.
Anyways just my thoughts.

dan said:
Let's concentrate on this thread and not try to nitpick TT history.
I recall Dr.Nagler posting negative things on LLLT in ATEO's threads.
Click to expand...

Agreed Dan, he did attack LLLT but never personally attacked ATEOS.
 
#43
Right, so he does not say that DIY habituation will result in failure, but he does say DIY TRT will most likely result in failure.

Also I don't see why a person can't counsel themselves out of a bad place. The power of the mind is tremendous and if a person is determined to try and accomplish this via DIY TRT, then he should be supported and possibly given tips and suggestions.
 
#45
The problem with the open heart surgery analogy is that those doctors spend 10-15 years in training. TRT is taught in a weekend, isn't it? The complexity between the two aren't even remotely comparable.
 
#46
dan said:
Right, so he does not say that DIY habituation will result in failure, but he does say DIY TRT will most likely result in failure, which I say is bullshit.
Also I don't see why a person can't councel themselves out of a bad place. The power of the mind is tremendous and if a person is determined to try and accomplish this via DIY TRT, then he should be supported and possibly given tips and suggestions - not dismissed and ridiculed - i.e. what you are doing is not TRT, etc.
Click to expand...

Whatever it is that helps you accomplish your goals, Dan. If you want to try a DIY TRT and it works for you, and you want to call it TRT, then so be it. There is no reason to take things so personally or become so fanatical about treatment options.
 
#47
Michael2013 said:
The problem with the open heart surgery analogy is that those doctors spend 10-15 years in training. TRT is taught in a weekend, isn't it? The complexity between the two aren't even remotely comparable.
Click to expand...

My point exactly. All the counceling involved in TRT is the demystification of tinnitus and reclassifying it as a benign phenomenon. So unless you're illiterate or have an IQ of 30, I don't see why you cannot demystify it on your own, by reading the textbook of TRT.
 
#48
Michael2013 said:
The problem with the open heart surgery analogy is that those doctors spend 10-15 years in training. TRT is taught in a weekend, isn't it? The complexity between the two aren't even remotely comparable.
Click to expand...


The reason I bring it up is because it shows to me how serious Dr.Nagler takes tinnitus.

I will add a few more things, when your very depressed and anxious its hard to think straight, when you have these constraints your brain is literally inhibited, I can only speak for myself but it was very difficult for me in my past experiences with depression to get my mind right.

Obviously people will disagree about this subject until the end of time, Ive given my opinion and seen others. For my part im not sure what more i can add.
 
#50
MattK said:
Well the thing that puzzles me, is that if TRT helps people (and evidently it does), then why is it such a big deal if it is "advertized" on here? I wouldn't care if TRT, CBT, Neuromonics, retigabine, etc are "advertized" on here if they are giving people relief and giving them their life "back".

It seems like you're so against a method that works for a lot of people; so perhaps it's not for everyone, but what method works 100% of the time for everyone in every situation for any health problem?

Quite honestly, if I did TRT and it worked for me, then I seriously wouldn't care if every hard-earned penny of mine went straight into Dr. Nagler's bank account. As far as I would be concerned it would be money well spent. (BTW, I know that Dr. Nagler has already said he doesn't make any money off of TRT. But my point is simply to state that to me, it would be irrelevant whether he did or not. What would be relevant for me is that I get results that help me move on so tinnitus doesn't control my life.)

I just don't understand why you're so against habituation. Sure it's not ideal. But if it comes down to habituation and moving on with my life versus remaining miserable and letting T control my life, then I'll take habituation every time. Those two options exist. You know what doesn't exist an as option as of right now? A cure. When/if a cure comes up, I'll take that over habituation, but we're not there yet. And I refuse to let T control my life until one is found.
Click to expand...


Nobody here is saying it doesn't work.
But....if it was that successful, as some claim, we tinnitus sufferers wouldn't be going from one "professional" to another, we would need to go to audiology clinic just around the corner and get proper treatment!
You wouldn't need Dr Nagler to tell you whereto go.
Also considering that there is only a handful of properly trained TRT specialist in the world (his words not mine), that's enough to rise my suspicion at the professionalism of the rest who claim they can do it.

For sure, over the last 20 years since Dr Nagler, has had tinnitus, this type of treatment would have been worldwide recognised as the way to go.
But.....
 
#51
MattK said:
Me too. It is a bear, but unfortunately, it's all we have. Of course, if I had the choice between habituation vs a real cure (so long as that cure didn't have some side effect worse than tinnitus), then of course I'd take the cure.

But what I don't get is that some people on here get so hostile at the thought of habituating. I understand that it sucks to have to do that, but we live in the real world. Not everything as of yet is curable, and unfortunately tinnitus is one of those things.
Click to expand...
Well stated Matt...
 
#52
dan said:
Don't make this about me. I am discussing a question posted to Dr.Nagler.
Click to expand...

Well, maybe he hasn't seen it? After all, it is late where he lives right now (midnight). And I am making it about you, because my post was to ATEOS and you decided to chime in on his behalf.

Besides that, you make your decisions regardless of what Dr. Nagler thinks. If he thinks TRT can't be a DIY type of thing, but you do think that, then who cares? Go for it. That goes for everyone. I really respect Dr. Nagler, but that doesn't mean I don't have any disagreements with him.
 
#53
valeri said:
Nobody here is saying it doesn't work.
But....if it was that successful, as some claim, we tinnitus sufferers wouldn't be going from one "professional" to another, we would need to go to audiology clinic just around the corner and get proper treatment!
Click to expand...

No, it's common sense that not everyone is equally good at their job. That is like saying that exercise doesn't work for weight loss, otherwise why do people bounce from trainer to trainer? Obviously some fitness professionals are better train/qualified than others. If all audiologists were equally skilled at TRT, then you might have a point, but that's never the case. I can definitely see why Dr. Nagler would have his "preferred" list of TRT clinicians, just as a nutritionist might have his preferred list of weight-loss trainers. This is a pretty common thing, actually.

valeri said:
Also considering that there is only a handful of properly trained TRT specialist in the world (his words not mine), that's enough to rise my suspicion at the professionalism of the rest who claim they can do it.
Click to expand...

Why is that grounds for suspicion? Obviously if the sample size is small to begin with, and if I remember right, Dr. Nagler said that virtually anyone can claim to do TRT, it would make sense that the ones who are legitimately trained would try to get word out that patients need to be very careful.

valeri said:
For sure, over the last 20 years since Dr Nagler, has had tinnitus, this type of treatment would have been worldwide recognised as the way to go.
But.....
Click to expand...

Well, keep in mind that "tinnitus" is relatively unknown among the general public and even most family physicians know next to nothing about it. So, there is a pretty good reason it wouldn't be that well known, as tinnitus in general doesn't exactly have the lime-light in the area of awareness.
 
#54
MattK said:
Well, keep in mind that "tinnitus" is relatively unknown among the general public and even most family physicians know next to nothing about it. So, there is a pretty good reason it wouldn't be that well known, as tinnitus in general doesn't exactly have the lime-light in the area of awareness.
Click to expand...
Physicians know what tinnitus is. If there was a great therapy out there that had huge success , they would most definitely refer their patients to it.
 
#55
dan said:
Physicians know what tinnitus is. If there was a great therapy out there that had huge success , they would most definitely refer their patients to it.
Click to expand...

Don't forget that I'm a tinnitus sufferer too and I've been to my fair share of docs. They hardly knew what it was and the urgent care doc I originally went to had to look it up.

But, for what it's worth, my primary physician and audiologist both presented TRT as an option.
 
#56
#57
MattK said:
Ok, but my post to ATEOS wasn't merely regarding his post on this thread. But it seems to be a re-occurring theme with him that he is hostile towards TRT, Dr. Nagler and the concept of habituation. That goes beyond what he has said on this thread.

For whatever reason, whenever Dr. Nagler mentions TRT or habituation, ATEOS isn't too far behind to bash Dr. Nagler. I can respect ATEOS's point of view. But I cannot understand why he can't say, "Ok, well, perhaps TRT and habituation work for some people, and I'm happy about that. But for me and other people, it will be something else".

I mean, we're all trying to get relief here and get control of our lives again. If that happens through TRT, CBT, Neuromonics, Neuromodulation, experimental drugs, etc then who really cares?
Click to expand...
This is the reason I ask very little regarding trt...if you have objections, a different point of view, or maybe just a valid question/concern you are considered hostile toward trt, dr Nagler and the concept of habituation" or you are "bashing" somebody. These so called "hostile" people ask a lot of questions that I personally would like answers to as well. It also gives a chance for the other party to explain/clarify certain points....This is called a discussion, there are a lot of things to be learned by discussing things. This is why we are all here...I thought anyway.
 
#58
Telis said:
This is called a discussion, there are a lot of things to be learned by discussing things. This is why we are all here...I thought anyway.
Click to expand...

Discussion is encouraged on all topics. All that is required is politeness and civility. This thread is still open for discussion.

And if you have specific questions to ask Dr. Nagler on TRT, why not ask him either here or in the Doctor's Corner?

If you disagree with his response or want clarification, then please say so. You may still disagree, and that's fine too. There are no cures for this frustrating disease, and TRT is just one of several ways that have helped some achieve habituation.
 
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