William Shatner & Habituation

[Dr. Nagler]

Yeah, but what treatments were being researched back then [in the late 1990s]?

Relatively few compared to today. They just thought they were on the cusp of finding a cure back then. And in 2030 we might very well say that very few treatments were being researched way back in 2015 compared with today. In 2030 we might be talking about how naive they were back in 2015 to think they were on the cusp of finding a cure!

It's all relative.

I didn't mean to call him an attention seeker

Sure you did. If you didn't, you might have said Dr. Vernon was incorrect in his assessment. But calling him an "attention-seeker" takes it to a whole new level. You were wrong, which can happen to the best of us. But please don't say you didn't mean it!

but you must admit it was foolish saying it back then if there was no active treatments being trialled...I mean Autifony, AM-101 and others are being trialled, so that 5-10 mark is more believable vs back then.

As I see it, even taking into account the trials to which you refer, tinnitus research is still relatively in its infancy - and a cure is a long long way off. Now let's hope I am as wrong about that as you were when you referred to Dr. Vernon as an attention-seeker.

 

[Telis]

We don't really know how bad his t was..Leonard Nimoy also has t but his was mild...William Shatner said he wore maskers on for 24 hours...So it must've been pretty bad. But none of us will know for sure how bad it is, as we can't hear it.

From what I have read he did this for a short time (trt) and quit. I will dig around and see if I can find it. You are definately correct, no one knows what the next person hears, just based off of his own detailed description of what he hears, it definatly sounds mild.

 

[valeri]

From what I have read he did this for a short time (trt) and quit. I will dig around and see if I can find it. You are definately correct, no one knows what the next person hears, just based off of his own detailed description of what he hears, it definatly sounds mild.

For sure it's some mild tinnitus.
If it was loud and debilitating he would have done a lot more to push for a cure.
He wouldn't be joking about it.
People with influence have that power over us little buggers that are left to suffer

 

[Silvio Sabo]

That's a paradox then.

If I have toothache my emotional reaction to it won't change a thing about the pain. Thus psychology won't work on intrusive reactive T. You can't talk it way.

Well, this is not entirely true. There are people who live with chronic pain and just yesterday I met a guy who had an accident where he fell of a truck and then another accident where he had a whiplash injury. He has chronic pain in his back and neck and has done about a year of physiotherapy and other treatments. His pain is still there and always will be however he explained it like this: "In the beginning I was living IN the pain whereas now I have learned to live WITH the pain."
So of course TRT will work in changing your mindset and help you cope with your situation. But for me it's still not enough. I want this thing GONE! I don't want to live the next 50 years with this thing (which is roughly what's left of my life if we count with a life expectancy of life about 80 years). And then just imagine it getting even worse as my hearing deteriorates with age.

Yeah, but what treatments were being researched back then? I didn't mean to call him an attention seeker, but you must admit it was foolish saying it back then if there was no active treatments being trialled...I mean Autifony, AM-101 and others are being trialled, so that 5-10 mark is more believable vs back then.

I think what Dr. Nagler is trying to say is that we always think that we have come so far and that we are close. Just look at computer science. When your read some of the statements by people like Bill Gates that once stated that "640 kb ougth to be enough for anybody." when talking about computer memory.

Of course we are closer to a cure now then we were in 1995. It's 20 years of research ahead! And of course when we talk about the 5-10 mark we are more likely to be right now than back then. But it still doesn't mean we actually will get there. If we don't have a cure in 5 years. I'm sure we will be more likely to be right then than now. And eventually we are going to be right because when that cure does come there will surly be a guy somewhere saying: "See I was right when I said 5 years ago that we were going to have a cure within 5 years."

 

[Silvio Sabo]

shatner never had bad T, although his reaction was bad. In a interview he held the mic up and said it sounds exActly like this....shhhhhhhhhh. That is NOT bad T. HIS REACTION WAS TERRIBLE, HIS T MANAGABLE.

You don't know that. As I see it he was explaining the nature of his sound not the volume. You haven't been inside his head and are in no position to judge. Furthermore I think it's really disrespectful for you to diminish someones suffering like that. You wouldn't like it either if someone told the same to you about your T. and you were on the verge of suicide.

 

[Dr. Nagler]

shatner never had bad T, although his reaction was bad. In a interview he held the mic up and said it sounds exActly like this....shhhhhhhhhh. That is NOT bad T. HIS REACTION WAS TERRIBLE, HIS T MANAGABLE.

So no matter how bad a person's tinnitus is, if that person can somehow manage to overcome it ... then the tinnitus couldn't have been all that bad after all. Is that what you are saying?

Like no matter how high a mountain is, if somebody can manage to climb it ... then it couldn't have been that high after all. Right?

 

[Telis]

You don't know that. As I see it he was explaining the nature of his sound not the volume. You haven't been inside his head and are in no position to judge. Furthermore I think it's really disrespectful for you to diminish someones suffering like that. You wouldn't like it either if someone told the same to you about your T. and you were on the verge of suicide.

I am on the verge and I have been told that a lot, and many times here.

Shatner is only human, there is a threshold here. Your T gets to a certain point and you will no longer function period. The CIA uses 70db to inflict mental "acoustic beatings" on prisoners. Read prisoner experiences of what happens to them mentally after a couple of weeks. They crack, they go nuts. Yes even James T Kirk will crack at a certain volume. He's no hero, he just plays one on TV.

And yes te way his sounds is mild, even if its fairly loud. Unless he described it incorrectly. I'm just going by the sound he made to simulate what he hears

 

[Telis]

So no matter how bad a person's tinnitus is, if that person can somehow manage to overcome it ... then the tinnitus couldn't have been all that bad after all. Is that what you are saying?

Yes

 

[Silvio Sabo]

I am on the verge and I have been told that a lot, and many times here.

Shatner is only human, there is a threshold here. Your T gets to a certain point and you will no longer function period. The CIA uses 70db to inflict mental "acoustic beatings" on prisoners. Read prisoner experiences of what happens to them mentally after a couple of weeks. They crack, they go nuts. Yes even James T Kirk will crack at a certain volume. He's no hero, he just plays one on TV.

And yes te way his sounds is mild, even if its fairly loud. Unless he described it incorrectly. I'm just going by the sound he made to simulate what he hears

You have no idea how his T. sounds. He was demonstrating in an interview however that is not necessarily 100% accurate. In lack of an appropriate sound source he blew on the microphone. I don't think it's not meant to be taken literately concerning either pitch or volume. He was simply explaining that it is a constant sound.

 

[Telis]

So no matter how bad a person's tinnitus is, if that person can somehow manage to overcome it ... then the tinnitus couldn't have been all that bad after all. Is that what you are saying?

Like no matter how high a mountain is, if somebody can manage to climb it ... then it couldn't have been that high after all. Right?

If someone were to only struggle for the first 2% of the climb, and then coast up the mountain without breaking a sweat, yup I woukd say that mountain isn't that high.

 

[Telis]

You have no idea how his T. sounds. He was demonstrating in an interview however that is not necessarily 100% accurate. In lack of an appropriate sound source he blew on the microphone. It's not meant to be taken litterly.

No I dont, I'm just going by how he described it. If it doesn't sound like shhhhhh why even answer the question. I believe him, I dokt see why he would bother with a demonstration unless he felt like he could better describe it by doing so.

 

[Silvio Sabo]

If someone were to only struggle for the first 2% of the climb, and then coast up the mountain without breaking a sweat, yup I woukd say that mountain isn't that high.

Yet even in your analogy imagine if that first 2% of the mountain is an 85 degree incline. That would be enough to make most people not be able to climb it.

No I dont, I'm just going by how he described it. If it doesn't sound like shhhhhh why even answer the question. I believe him, I dokt see why he would bother with a demonstration unless he felt like he could better describe it accurately by doing so.

But you must understand that he is explaining to an audience that potentially has no knowledge what so ever about tinnitus or might not even have heard of it's existence. Technicalities that you have become hung up on are of no importance in that case.

He is trying to explain that he has a constant noise, that he hears it all the time and that it's annoying to the point that can drive you mad enough to consider suicide. If I met you in the street and asked you what tinnitus is and what it might sound like you'd probably say something like: I have a constant sound that sounds like 'eeeeee' or 'aaaaaa' or 'shhhhh'. That doesn't necessarily mean that the sound of your tinnitus sounds like a grown man or woman saying the letter "E" constantly, now does it? But it's probably the closest you can get in that particular moment with what you have at your disposal.

Or do you think that Mr. Shatner should have paused the interview for an hour while he brings in a computer with sound generator software on it and then try to perfectly match his tinnitus in pitch and loudness? And then remember that this was 20 years ago. So there were no laptops or mobile phones or iPads or anything like that (I'm aware that portable computers and mobile phones existed but they were uncommon and the mobile phones were just that, PHONES. There were no apps or anything).

 

[Telis]

Yet even in your analogy imagine if that first 2% of the mountain is an 85 degree incline. That would be enough to make most people not be able to climb it.



But you must understand that he is explaining to an audience that potentially has no knowledge what so ever about tinnitus or might not even have heard of it's existence. Technicalities that you have become hung up on are of no importance in that case.

He is trying to explain that he has a constant noise, that he hears it all the time and that it's annoying. If I met you in the street and asked you what tinnitus is and what it might sound like you'd probably say something like: I have a constant sound that sounds like 'eeeeee' or 'aaaaaa' or 'shhhhh'. That doesn't necessarily mean that the sound of your tinnitus sounds like a grown man or woman saying the letter "E" constantly now does it?

Ok, sure, let's go with that, he just has absolutely no clue how to describe what he is hearing. Just like I guess someone could describe the sound of thunder as weeeeeeeeee right!? Haha. Maybe he's 100 percent deaf if he's that far off!!!

 

[Silvio Sabo]

Ok, sure, let's go with that, he just has absolutely no clue how to describe what he is hearing. Just like I guess someone could describe the sound of thunder as weeeeeeeeee right!? Haha. Maybe he's 100 percent deaf if he's that far off!!!

Bear in mind that the human voice doesn't go over 8 000 hz. Most of our speech is between 300-3 400 hz so it's impossible to accurately imitate the sound of most people's tinnitus.

 

[Dr. Nagler]

If someone were to only struggle for the first 2% of the climb, and then coast up the mountain without breaking a sweat, yup I woukd say that mountain isn't that high.

That wasn't my question. But based on your response, I would not recommend TRT for you. No, it's not because your tinnitus is too severe for you to succeed. That's not it at all. It's because according to your logic, succeeding in TRT would mean (to you) that your tinnitus wasn't bad after all ... and you are just too vested in insisting that it is!

Telis, tinnitus is not a 2% problem. And tinnitus does not have a 2% solution. It's a tough climb all the way. Thousands upon thousands of people with severe intrusive tinnitus have overcome it one way or another. But there are some folks who are simply destined not to make that climb. The term for those folks is "flag-waver." Flag-wavers are people to wear their tinnitus on their sleeve, like some sort of badge of honor. And anybody who truly believes that those who have succeeded in overcoming their tinnitus cannot possibly have it as bad as he or she does ... is pretty much destined to fail.

 

[inadmin]

You have no idea how his T. sounds. He was demonstrating in an interview however that is not necessarily 100% accurate. In lack of an appropriate sound source he blew on the microphone. I don't think it's not meant to be taken literately concerning either pitch or volume. He was simply explaining that it is a constant sound.

We have no idea but based on his describtion, we can fairly assume it's a low freq. T that the general concecus about it is that it's easeir to tolerate - compared to a high pitched one. Heck, even @Dr. Nagler had a subjective feeling his T increased dramatically, when all it was turned out to be the pitch.

 

[Danny Boy]

Relatively few compared to today. They just thought they were on the cusp of finding a cure back then. And in 2030 we might very well say that very few treatments were being researched way back in 2015 compared with today. In 2030 we might be talking about how naive they were back in 2015 to think they were on the cusp of finding a cure!

It's all relative.


Sure you did. If you didn't, you might have said Dr. Vernon was incorrect in his assessment. But calling him an "attention-seeker" takes it to a whole new level. You were wrong, which can happen to the best of us. But please don't say you didn't mean it!


As I see it, even taking into account the trials to which you refer, tinnitus research is still relatively in its infancy - and a cure is a long long way off. Now let's hope I am as wrong about that as you were when you referred to Dr. Vernon as an attention-seeker.

Maybe a cure is very far out, but a treatment isn't. A treatment is better than nothing...I mean is mild t so bad? And I don't know Dr. Vernon, so I don't know if his attributes include attention seeking which is why I'm sorry I jumped the gun...A lot of people say this and that and hit news headlines, take Katie Hopkins as an example. Anyway, I'm sure he's a nice guy. For the record what treatments was he referring to?

 

[Telis]

Bear in mind that the human voice doesn't go over 8 000 hz. Most of our speech is between 300-3 400 hz so it's impossible to imitate the sound of most people's tinnitus.

Yes I get it. But if you describe a high pitched sound you do it in a certain way. You will use the letters that closest correspond to the sounds you are trying to describe, or you will use your voice in a higher pitched manner. Or....you will not do a demonstration and just compare it to something that everyone can relate to. The guys not an idiot!!! Seriously!!! If his T is a high pitched screeming sound who in the world would use shhhhh to describe this??? Common sense, come on.

 

[Silvio Sabo]

Yes I get it. But if you describe a high pitched sound you do it in a certain way. You will use the letters that closest correspond to the sounds you are trying to describe, or you will use your voice in a higher pitched manner. Or....you will not do a demonstration and just compare it to something that everyone can relate to. The guys not an idiot!!! Seriously!!! If his T is a high pitched screeming sound who in the world would use shhhhh to describe this??? Common sense, come on.

I'm not saying his tinnitus is high pitched. I'm just saying that you can't possibly accurately tell what his T. sounds like or how loud it is. Tinnitus can sound in a lot of different ways.

http://www.hearing.nihr.ac.uk/public/auditory-examples-sounds-of-tinnitus

I would probably already have killed myself if my T. sounded like no. 4.

 

[Danny Boy]

I'm not saying his tinnitus is high pitched. I'm just saying that you can't possibly accurately tell what his T. sounds like or how loud it is. Tinnitus can sound in a lot of different ways.

http://www.hearing.nihr.ac.uk/public/auditory-examples-sounds-of-tinnitus

I would probably already have killed myself if my T. sounded like no. 4.

Mine sounds like number 8 or 9, they both sound the same lol

 

[Dr. Nagler]

Yes I get it. But if you describe a high pitched sound you do it in a certain way. You will use the letters that closest correspond to the sounds you are trying to describe, or you will use your voice in a higher pitched manner. Or....you will not do a demonstration and just compare it to something that everyone can relate to. The guys not an idiot!!! Seriously!!! If his T is a high pitched screeming sound who in the world would use shhhhh to describe this??? Common sense, come on.

Well, when I am asked to describe my own tinnitus, I say that is is a cross between a screaming teakettle and a roaring jet turbine, a sound that cannot be masked by anything, including Niagara Falls. And ultimately I did just fine. It was indeed very difficult for me, yet in the end I overcame it. But as bad as my tinnitus was, I was never a flag-waver (see post #105 above).

 

[Dr. Nagler]

Anyway, I'm sure he's a nice guy. For the record what treatments was he referring to?

I do not know what treatments Dr. Vernon was referring to, Danny Boy. He was the Director of the Oregon Hearing Research Center at the time, and I was not involved in that work. I'd call him up and ask him for you if I could. But I can't. He passed way five years ago.

 

[Telis]

That wasn't my question. But based on your response, I would not recommend TRT for you. No, it's not because your tinnitus is too severe for you to succeed. That's not it at all. It's because according to your logic, succeeding in TRT would mean (to you) that your tinnitus wasn't bad after all ... and you are just too vested in insisting that it is!

i don't know, I'm tired of this debate. I guess T isn't a disability, it's in my head. I need some trt noise generators and a higher pain threshold to sounds. I was always a tough guy, guess not now. Then I can go out with my buddies, go back to hockey, smile in pain to every sound along with my ears blasting ungodly sounds and say I beat this thing while wincing in pain. Great! Lovin life again !!

I'm not saying his tinnitus is high pitched. I'm just saying that you can't possibly accurately tell what his T. sounds like or how loud it is. Tinnitus can sound in a lot of different ways.

http://www.hearing.nihr.ac.uk/public/auditory-examples-sounds-of-tinnitus

I would probably already have killed myself if my T. sounded like no. 4.

Na, you wouldn't kill yourself, you could do some trt and it wouldnt even bother you

Well, when I am asked to describe my own tinnitus, I say that is is a cross between a screaming teakettle and a roaring jet turbine, a sound that cannot be masked by anything, including Niagara Falls. And ultimately I did just fine. It was indeed very difficult for me, yet in the end I overcame it. But as bad as my tinnitus was, I was never a flag-waver (see post #105 above).

I dont understand why it WAS difficult and no longer is. This is hard for me to buy. If you said I struggle every day but I have found this has helped, it seems a little bit more believable. I have always believed if something sounds too good to be true it is.

I have zero reaction to my T, none. I don't concentrate properly, it feels like the noise hurts my head and ears, I can barely flick a light switch without pain and spasm in my ear, my ears feel like they are on fire, bleeding and infected but I don't react. I can sleep fine, sit in a quiet room like right now, my gf is sleeping. I get exhausted quickly by almost anything from enduring this 24 7. What am I doing wrong? My reaction sure isn't there, no anxiety, nothing. Sometimes I lay in bed for hours exhausted and meditating, putting my mind away from this. I mean what else can a guy do?? Trt will take this all away?

 

[Silvio Sabo]

Na, you wouldn't kill yourself, you could do some trt and it wouldnt even bother you

Na, we don't have that much TRT here in Sweden. We do however have lots of rope, sharp knives, razors and so on...

 

[Dr. Nagler]

i don't know, I'm tired of this debate.

OK

I guess T isn't a disability,

Who said that?

it's in my head.

Of course it's in your head. It sure as hell isn't in your foot! But just because it's in your head, that doesn't mean it's in your imagination. There's a difference, you know.

I need some trt noise generators and a higher pain threshold to sounds.

Like I said in Post #105, I would not recommend TRT for you.

I dont understand why it WAS difficult and no longer is.

It is no longer difficult because thanks to TRT I habituated my tinnitus. But during that whole process (twenty years ago) things were extremely difficult for me.

This is hard for me to buy.

OK. Like any of this is easy? If you wanted something easy, you sure picked the wrong affliction! Tinnitus is TOUGH.

If you said I struggle every day but I have found this has helped, it seems a little bit more believable.

But I do not struggle at all. I used to. But I don't anymore.

I have always believed if something sounds too good to be true it is.

Believe me or don't believe me. It doesn't make a difference to me one way or the other. I have no dog in this hunt.

I have zero reaction to my T, none. I don't concentrate properly, it feels like the noise hurts my head and ears, I can barely flick a light switch without pain and spasm in my ear, my ears feel like they are on fire, bleeding and infected but I don't react. I can sleep fine, sit in a quiet room like right now, my gf is sleeping. I get exhausted quickly by almost anything from enduring this 24 7. What am I doing wrong?

Well for one thing as best I can tell you do not even have a diagnosis. A diagnosis would be helpful, don't you think? I mean, didn't you just dump a shitload of money into a bunch of neurofeedback sessions that did not help you at all? But the guy had no idea what he was treating. What kind of sense does that make?

My reaction sure isn't there, no anxiety, nothing. Sometimes I lay in bed for hours exhausted and meditating, putting my mind away from this. I mean what else can a guy do?? Trt will take this all away?

TRT will not cure the common cold. TRT will not give you a stronger erection. TRT will not help the Stampeders win the Grey Cup next year or the Flames win the Stanley Cup next year. All TRT will do is facilitate the habituation of tinnitus and help with hyperacusis desensitization.

Now I am going to back out of this thread. In ten minutes I'll be addressing the New Jersey Tinnitus Self-Help Group by speakerphone. And then my wife and are are heading to the opera for a performance of Cavalleria Rusticana and Pagliacci.

Best to all.

stephen nagler

 

[tinnitussufferer]

then my wife and are are heading to the opera for a performance of Cavalleria Rusticana and Pagliacci.

Best to all.

stephen nagler

That will give you tinnitus. Opera can be pretty loud

 

[Danny Boy]

I do not know what treatments Dr. Vernon was referring to, Danny Boy. He was the Director of the Oregon Hearing Research Center at the time, and I was not involved in that work. I'd call him up and ask him for you if I could. But I can't. He passed way five years ago.

Oh, I'm so sorry to hear about that. Let the dead rest in peace.

 

[NiNyu]

You are right. The principles I have been discussing do not apply to pain and temperature. Those phenomena have unique neurological pathways.

Just like T. That's the irony. It does have unique neurological pathways. It's essentially like phantom pain, where the cochlea is the lost limb. And that's a fact and not my opinion.

If psychology has any effect on T it's the placebo effect. And I do not see that working on intrusive reactive T.

There are people who live with chronic pain [..] He has chronic pain in his back and neck and has done about a year of physiotherapy [..]

he explained it like this: "In the beginning I was living IN the pain whereas now I have learned to live WITH the pain."

Of course, he has learned to live with the chronic back pain 'cause there are breaks! Chronic pain doesn't mean 24/7 pain! If you have chronic back pain you mainly get the excruciating pain when you move. That's why physiotherapy does help. It addressed the physcial issue >>> back pain.

Now send him with his back pain to a psychiatrist and see how much relief of pain he gets. ZERO! Moreover, there are very effective painkillers which cease the pain completely. And then there's even Regenokine -- a cure!

So of course TRT will work in changing your mindset and help you cope with your situation.

If you have mild T, I bet! But if you have debilitating T no freakin' way!!! So, if you have it mild.. go for TRT or any psychological therapy. And if all fails try the dentist. Get all your teeth pulled out and smile.

I want this thing GONE!
And then just imagine it getting even worse as my hearing deteriorates with age.

Who doesn't? And that's mainly 'cause mine is completely debilitating. If I had mild T in my left ear, which I have developed recently in my right I think I could even handle it.

~
We all do not know how bad William Shatner's T is/was, and I have no intention to belittle his suffering or pain, but he said that he did ha-bitchuate after three months. Now go and ask ANYBODY here with debilitating T how long it took for them to ha-bitchuate and carry on with their lives happily.

http://www.hearing.nihr.ac.uk/public/auditory-examples-sounds-of-tinnitus

I would probably already have killed myself if my T sounded like no. 4.

So I can go ahead and off myself then? Great! Thank you. Appreciate the counseling.

Thousands upon thousands of people with severe intrusive tinnitus have overcome it one way or another.

You mean like suicide? Or schizophrenia?

What you call flag-wavers I call being candid and sensible.

 

[Dr. Nagler]

If psychology has any effect on T it's the placebo effect. And I do not see that working on intrusive reactive T.

Psychology (e.g., CBT) has no effect at all on tinnitus. Nobody ever said it did.
Neurophysiology (e.g., TRT) has no effect on tinnitus. Nobody ever said it did.
The reason CBT and TRT work so well is because of the effect they have on one's reaction to tinnitus.

What you call flag-wavers I call being candid and sensible.

You think it is "candid and sensible" to have a vested interest in continuing to suffer? Really?

 

[NiNyu]

The reason CBT and TRT work so well is because of the effect they have on one's reaction to tinnitus.

Great so we treat the patient's reaction to their toothache instead of the tooth. I can see how that works so well. Again, placebo.

You think it is "candid and sensible" to have a vested interest in continuing to suffer? Really?

No, I just tell how it is. Square and simple. I do not pretend or delude myself or others.

Honestly, I have zero interest in continuing this suffering. All I desire is an end of this nightmare. If there's no real treatment -- fine, but then we should at least have the right to end our pain with dignity. Still I can't get my hands on the right meds/poison legally. So I will have to figure out somehting illegal. Nobody takes us seriously. They either prescribe some pills or suggest psychotherapy. Useless.