2020 US Presidential Election

[Zugzug]

When is the middle class going to stop being ignored, stepped on and over taxed?

I am certainly not on the hard left, but this is what I see Republicans do when it comes to government:

They will get into office and have absolutely no desire nor imagination to implement policies that help everyday people. They know this so they sell the idea that "taxes are bad" and "government is bad." Obviously, to some degree, too much government is bad; I would contend that full-on socialism is very bad.

But imagine being taxed and in return, being given your fair share of entitlements. The real problem is conservatives are too prideful to admit that, in part, their own party simply fails them at the federal level. They can't admit this so instead, they pound on this theory that it's the fault of the concept of government.

Sure enough, a Democrat then wins (either the presidency, Senate, and/or House), and then suddenly, the problem is Democrats, not the concept of government. It's a sad game, really.

Of course, the Democratic party doesn't succeed at this either -- though is closer (pre-existing conditions, better with disability, some interest in saving the environment, more social programs, etc.).

I guess my point is that no one likes to just give away taxes to see it go to waste. This is precisely what happens when Republicans are in charge. They gut social programs, program their own constituents to believe that they are helping them, then try to sell a tax cut for the rich as a true benefit to the middle class. It's quite sad.

 

[MadsWithT]

Teaching nationalism in school is one of the first things Hitler changed.

Between things like this, the excessive for show bible and flag brandishing, describing the press as the "enemy of the people" and the scapegoating of minorities, I'm increasingly wondering if I'm in "1938 Germany" America and it's scary as hell.

At any rate, Reductio ad Hitlerum is a logical fallacy. Germany 1938 is nothing like USA 2020. Your line of argumentation is irrelevant and the comparison you make is false. Hitling, to compare something or someone to Hitler, has been around the internet since the days of IRC. There's been done noteworthy scholarly works on this phenomenon, for instance Goodwins law of Hitler analogies. Look it up. And, btw, Donald Trump is not remotely similar to the Austrian corporal. I'd rather compare President Trump with Winston Churchill.

 

[Juan]

I am certainly not on the hard left, but this is what I see Republicans do when it comes to government:

They will get into office and have absolutely no desire nor imagination to implement policies that help everyday people. They know this so they sell the idea that "taxes are bad" and "government is bad." Obviously, to some degree, too much government is bad; I would contend that full-on socialism is very bad.

But imagine being taxed and in return, being given your fair share of entitlements. The real problem is conservatives are too prideful to admit that, in part, their own party simply fails them at the federal level. They can't admit this so instead, they pound on this theory that it's the fault of the concept of government.

Sure enough, a Democrat then wins (either the presidency, Senate, and/or House), and then suddenly, the problem is Democrats, not the concept of government. It's a sad game, really.

Of course, the Democratic party doesn't succeed at this either -- though is closer (pre-existing conditions, better with disability, some interest in saving the environment, more social programs, etc.).

I guess my point is that no one likes to just give away taxes to see it go to waste. This is precisely what happens when Republicans are in charge. They gut social programs, program their own constituents to believe that they are helping them, then try to sell a tax cut for the rich as a true benefit to the middle class. It's quite sad.

Trump has been too busy not paying his own taxes to have time to think about someone else, let alone the middle class.

 

[FGG]

At any rate, Reductio ad Hitlerum is a logical fallacy. Germany 1938 is nothing like USA 2020. Your line of argumentation is irrelevant and the comparison you make is false. Hitling, to compare something or someone to Hitler, has been around the internet since the days of IRC. There's been done noteworthy scholarly works on this phenomenon, for instance Goodwins law of Hitler analogies. Look it up. And, btw, Donald Trump is not remotely similar to the Austrian corporal. I'd rather compare President Trump with Winston Churchill.

Yeah I have heard of Godwin's Law but it's an internet meme, not an actual rule of anything and certainly not a scholarly work (unless you were just being sarcastic about that).

I had to look up "Reducterio ad Hitlerum" and it seems to apply when you are using Hitler to win an argument where a comparison is not apt (e.g. "Hitler was a vegetarian, therefore vegetarians are immoral")

There are times when it is actually appropriate.

From the Wikipedia on it:

"Historian Daniel Goldhagen, who had written about the Holocaust, argues that not all comparisons to Hitler and Nazism are logical fallacies since if they all were, there would be nothing to learn from the events that led to the Holocaust. He argues in his book Hitler's Willing Executioners that many people who were complicit or active participants in the Holocaust and subsequently in fascist and neo-Nazi movements have manipulated the historical narrative to escape blame or to deny aspects of the Holocaust"

Reductio ad Hitlerum

When it comes to Trump, historical holocaust experts have also been making this comparison, too:

It's not wrong to compare Trump's America to the Holocaust. Here's why.

But I could have just said "fascist" instead of Hitler as it ruffles feathers any time "Hitler" specifically as used i guess.

 

[Zugzug]

At any rate, Reductio ad Hitlerum is a logical fallacy. Germany 1938 is nothing like USA 2020. Your line of argumentation is irrelevant and the comparison you make is false. Hitling, to compare something or someone to Hitler, has been around the internet since the days of IRC. There's been done noteworthy scholarly works on this phenomenon, for instance Goodwins law of Hitler analogies. Look it up. And, btw, Donald Trump is not remotely similar to the Austrian corporal. I'd rather compare President Trump with Winston Churchill.

Several points, though, since you want to talk about logic. There's a difference between saying something always happens, can happen, and never happens.

99.9999% of the time when liberals invoke Hitler, it's to cite a counterexample to the "always happens" or the "never happens" scenarios. Very rarely (to the point where it's a total strawman) does a liberal truly believe that things are as bad in America as they were in Nazi Germany. For example,

Claim 1: There's no danger associated with convincing a nation's citizens that the press is the enemy of the people.
Claim 2: Worshipping one's own country and never questioning it always leads to positive outcomes.
Claim 3: If many people support something, it can't be evil. If many more people casually approve of evil (without supporting it), it can't be evil.

Hitler gets invoked here because he easily disproves this claims above.

Also, I want to make another point. For every one time a liberal brings up Hitler, probably a hundred conservatives dismiss all criticism of Trump as "anti-American" or "Trump Derangement Syndrome" or "radical socialist". If you ask me, it's pretty much totally insane to say that a guy like Trump doesn't deserve any criticism, ever.

 

[PeteJ]

Two wrongs don't make a right but we have to vote for someone in the election. I didn't choose to nominate Biden, nor did the folks here but now it's him or Trump.

No one is pointing a gun at you to vote for Biden... or Trump for that matter.

 

[MadsWithT]

Yeah I have heard of Godwin's Law but it's an internet meme, not an actual rule of anything and certainly not a scholarly work (unless you were just being sarcastic about that).

I had to look up "Reducterio ad Hitlerum" and it seems to apply when you are using Hitler to win an argument where a comparison is not apt (e.g. "Hitler was a vegetarian, therefore vegetarians are immoral")

There are times when it is actually appropriate.

From the Wikipedia on it:

"Historian Daniel Goldhagen, who had written about the Holocaust, argues that not all comparisons to Hitler and Nazism are logical fallacies since if they all were, there would be nothing to learn from the events that led to the Holocaust. He argues in his book Hitler's Willing Executioners that many people who were complicit or active participants in the Holocaust and subsequently in fascist and neo-Nazi movements have manipulated the historical narrative to escape blame or to deny aspects of the Holocaust"

Reductio ad Hitlerum

When it comes to Trump, historical holocaust experts have also been making this comparison, too:

It's not wrong to compare Trump's America to the Holocaust. Here's why.

But I could have just said "fascist" instead of Hitler as it ruffles feathers any time "Hitler" specifically as used i guess.

"Not wrong to compare Trump's America to the Holocaust." Just this headline is telling of far the US media has gone off the rails. Goes to show how right Trump is calling Washington Post et.al. out for for what they are - fake news. - - It's like, journalist telephoning their friend, the Expert, to get a quotable - Trump is a Nazi.

Please link to a report on how Trump is gassing Jews in concentration camps.

I don't read American political discussion boards but it is interesting to see the line of argumentation you use still being comme il faut. It is simply laughable that calling Trump fascist or Hitler is acceptable. Says something about how far out some Americans are in regards to understanding history.

Hitling your President is furthermore not appropriate in any context, it only shows that you are an ignoramus. I am not offended by you invoking Eva Braun's late husband btw, just amused, and I'm 100 % sure that Trump wins the election over the demented Joe Biden. In general, Americans are very stable geniuses and will vote according to their best interests, not for a representative of the corrupt globalist elite.

 

[MadsWithT]

If you ask me, it's pretty much totally insane to say that a guy like Trump doesn't deserve any criticism, ever.

I tend to agree with you, any leader of a democratic nation must tolerate being criticized. However, the last 4 years Trump has been an object to a hatefest never seen before, in addition to an ongoing coup de etat attempt. That is something different.

 

[Zugzug]

I tend to agree with you, any leader of a democratic nation must tolerate being criticized. However, the last 4 years Trump has been an object to a hatefest never seen before, in addition to an ongoing coup de etat attempt. That is something different.

I have an exercise for you. Go on Trump's Twitter and read it for 8 hours straight. Try to read as much content as possible. Then come back and tell me that people are concerned for no reason at all.

 

[PeteJ]

I am certainly not on the hard left, but this is what I see Republicans do when it comes to government:

They will get into office and have absolutely no desire nor imagination to implement policies that help everyday people. They know this so they sell the idea that "taxes are bad" and "government is bad." Obviously, to some degree, too much government is bad; I would contend that full-on socialism is very It's quite sad.

You are, though. You described both parties but what you omitted is that the Democrats (and to a less extent, the fake opposition Republicans) want to be a far left party.

In supporting the Democrats, you support the far left BLM and Antifa.

The Communist Party in the USA endorsed the Democrats. You lie to yourself and lie to other posters here.

 

[Born To Slay]

No one is pointing a gun at you to vote for Biden... or Trump for that matter.

Sure but realistically those are the only ones who can win. For those of us who live in swing states and our votes matter, I don't, you don't want the lesser evil to lose to the greater evil because you voted third party.

 

[PeteJ]

"Not wrong to compare Trump's America to the Holocaust." Just this headline is telling of far the US media has gone off the rails. Goes to show how right Trump is calling Washington Post et.al. out for for what they are - fake news. - - It's like, journalist telephoning their friend, the Expert, to get a quotable - Trump is a Nazi.

Please link to a report on how Trump is gassing Jews in concentration camps.

I don't read American political discussion boards but it is interesting to see the line of argumentation you use still being comme il faut. It is simply laughable that calling Trump fascist or Hitler is acceptable. Says something about how far out some Americans are in regards to understanding history.

Hitling your President is furthermore not appropriate in any context, it only shows that you are an ignoramus. I am not offended by you invoking Eva Braun's late husband btw, just amused, and I'm 100 % sure that Trump wins the election over the demented Joe Biden. In general, Americans are very stable geniuses and will vote according to their best interests, not for a representative of the corrupt globalist elite.

You have some valid points (although I don't know who you are replying to), but one could argue both candidates are corrupt globalist elites (Trump on board with them and Biden s career globalist).

The positive thing about the US or about the principle of free speech/expression is the right to call Trump, Hitler and Biden, Mao or Stalin or whatever you want, whether someone else thinks it's accurate or crazyville. That's the values that those espouse freedoms support, the right to say something controversial.

More and more people want to remove that right and dictate what one is allowed to say and who knows what punishment you will get - they want to decide that, too.

 

[MadsWithT]

I have an exercise for you. Go on Trump's Twitter and read it for 8 hours straight. Try to read as much content as possible. Then come back and tell me that people are concerned for no reason at all.

I've read Donald Trumps magnificent Twitter feed for over 4 years. I can tell you right here and now, I like his style, brash, but succinct, to the point and no bs. We should have more of his type political leaders in the Western World. Leaders who love their people and country unashamed like Donald J. Trump does.

 

[FGG]

"Not wrong to compare Trump's America to the Holocaust." Just this headline is telling of far the US media has gone off the rails. Goes to show how right Trump is calling Washington Post et.al. out for for what they are - fake news. - - It's like, journalist telephoning their friend, the Expert, to get a quotable - Trump is a Nazi.

Please link to a report on how Trump is gassing Jews in concentration camps.

I don't read American political discussion boards but it is interesting to see the line of argumentation you use still being comme il faut. It is simply laughable that calling Trump fascist or Hitler is acceptable. Says something about how far out some Americans are in regards to understanding history.

Hitling your President is furthermore not appropriate in any context, it only shows that you are an ignoramus. I am not offended by you invoking Eva Braun's late husband btw, just amused, and I'm 100 % sure that Trump wins the election over the demented Joe Biden. In general, Americans are very stable geniuses and will vote according to their best interests, not for a representative of the corrupt globalist elite.

I think you are linking all Hitler comparisons to genocide and dismissing any authoritarian comparisons on the basis of "no genocide" which no one at all has ever claimed but @Zugzug already did a good job addressing that.

 

[aot]

Please link to a report on how Trump is gassing Jews in concentration camps.

Well there's already forced hystorectomies in ICE facilities.

Whistleblower Alleges 'Medical Neglect,' Questionable Hysterectomies Of ICE Detainees

 

[Zugzug]

I've read Donald Trumps magnificent Twitter feed for over 4 years. I can tell you right here and now, I like his style, brash, but succinct, to the point and no bs. We should have more of his type political leaders in the Western World. Leaders who love their people and country unashamed like Donald J. Trump does.

So is retweeting conspiracies about the Osama Bin Laden raid (one of the single most uniting things that happened in America in recent memory) being staged an example of loving America without shame? Would you feel the same way if Barack Hussein Obama tweeted like that?

By the way, I am ashamed of Donald J. Trump because I love my country. I'm not ashamed of Trump because I hate my country. The bar couldn't be any lower right now -- a geriatric, center right, incoherent old man may beat him. Clearly, Trump is not a God.

Is investigating the president's place of birth (on top of all of the other stress he had as president) an example of rooting for America? Or is it an example of being a petty, worthless, unamerican asshole?

 

[MadsWithT]

I think you are linking all Hitler comparisons to genocide and dismissing any authoritarian comparisons on the basis of "no genocide" which no one at all has ever claimed but @Zugzug already did a good job addressing that.

Sorry, I'm at a loss here. Please explain "I think you are linking all Hitler comparisons to genocide and dismissing any authoritarian comparisons on the basis of "no genocide" which no one at all has ever claimed". I don't understand what you are trying to say.

Nor could I follow the logical steps of the argumentation in the post you are referring to neither. Please explain the steps, how they are connected, how it is useful and how I would deduct meaning or new insight from of it. Look, I didn't start the nazi referencing, you did, I just picked up on it.

 

[FGG]

Sorry, I'm at a loss here. Please explain "I think you are linking all Hitler comparisons to genocide and dismissing any authoritarian comparisons on the basis of "no genocide" which no one at all has ever claimed". I don't understand what you are trying to say.

Nor could I follow the logical steps of the argumentation in the post you are referring to neither. Please explain the steps, how they are connected, how it is useful and how I would deduct meaning or new insight from of it. Look, I didn't start the nazi referencing, you did, I just picked up on it.

Sure. I was explaining why the very beginning of authoritarian regimes starts with control of information. In Trump's case, discrediting any news critical of him as "fake news" and wanting to revamp our education system to only include history that makes our country look good.

I used the Nazi comparison because it would be familiar to anyone. But neither me nor anyone else has accused him of genocide.

 

[MadsWithT]

Sure. I was explaining why the very beginning of authoritarian regimes starts with control of information. In Trump's case, discrediting any news critical of him as "fake news" and wanting to revamp our education system to only include history that makes our country look good.

I used the Nazi comparison because it would be familiar to anyone. But neither me nor anyone else has accused him of genocide.

I asked you politely, but you evidently could not explain the post you was referring to. Not surprised, I could not understand it. Looks like quasi intellectual word salad to me. You lose any argument by invoking Hitler. It simply means you have no arguments or are too lazy to present any.

Regarding the fake news, it's the other way around. The US media is continuously attacking Trump with false stories and biased narratives whilst Biden's corrupt dealings in Ukraine and China goes unreported is troublesome to put it mildly. The media bias is extreme these days, not only in the US but in Western Europe as well.

Oikophobia is not virtue. I find it to be a loathsome trait. You guys are brainwashed to look down on your own culture. It is no way possible to have a meaningful exchange of opinion with anyone holding such views.

I'll be back on this thread to gloat after Trump wins the election. Peace out.

 

[aot]

I'll be back on this thread to gloat after Trump wins the election. Peace out.

Just going to ignore those forced hysterectomies?

 

[FGG]

I asked you politely, but you evidently could not explain the post you was referring to. Not surprised, I could not understand it. Looks like quasi intellectual word salad to me. You lose any argument by invoking Hitler. It simply means you have no arguments or are too lazy to present any.

Regarding the fake news, it's the other way around. The US media is continuously attacking Trump with false stories and biased narratives whilst Biden's corrupt dealings in Ukraine and China goes unreported is troublesome to put it mildly. The media bias is extreme these days, not only in the US but in Western Europe as well.

Oikophobia is not virtue. I find it to be a loathsome trait. You guys are brainwashed to look down on your own culture. It is no way possible to have a meaningful exchange of opinion with anyone holding such views.

I'll be back on this thread to gloat after Trump wins the election. Peace out.

I'm legit confused. I answered politely despite not detecting politeness in your asking so maybe we are misunderstanding each other and there is a communication barrier of some sort.

Anyway, I tried to explain my position as clearly as I could. I'm sorry it wasn't clear to you and was "word salad". I don't think I know how I could have explained my position any better, though.

 

[Lilah]

By the way, I am ashamed of Donald J. Trump because I love my country

I think Democrats put themselves first (which is obvious as they always seek freebies). I personally do not think they love the country. Who is more likely to burn/spit on/trample on the U.S. flag, for example? Who refuses to take the pledge of allegiance? Who kneels down during the national anthem? The problem with asking for a lot of freebies is that freebies only last so long, after a while, there are consequences such as countries going bankrupt which is bad for future generations.

 

[Lilah]

You say that as if every president isn't slammed by the media and the opposition party.

Democrats are not slammed/questioned by the media (except for softball questions). Bad news about Democrats is also censored by the media. Compare Trump's townhall with Biden's townhall. Trump's base gets energized every time they see poor Trump being mistreated.

 

[FGG]

I think Democrats put themselves first (which is obvious as they always seek freebies). I personally do not think they love the country. Who is more likely to burn/spit on/trample on the U.S. flag, for example? Who refuses to take the pledge of allegiance? Who kneels down during the national anthem? The problem with asking for a lot of freebies is that freebies only last so long, after a while, there are consequences such as countries going bankrupt which is bad for future generations.

What percentage of democrats do you think have ever burned the flag? I 100% believe many more conservatives have spit on mask wearers than dems have spit on the flag but it would be wrong to use that to make a point of "conservatives are more likely to spit on mask wearers" as a kind of moral superiority statement.

I will agree that I find the "pledge of allegiance" a bit off putting (pledging allegiance to a symbol?) but I never refused it in school.

I think if you really love someone or something you see their beauty and their faults otherwise it seems more like worship than love.

The left loves this country. So much we want "and justice for all" to be a reality for everyone.

And it was never actually about the kneeling to conservatives either otherwise they wouldn't have booed the compromise "locked arms in racial solidarity" gesture done before and separately from the anthem at the opening Kansas City game.

As far as freebies, literally no one gets more freebies in this country than the top 1% and that's what is really bankrupting the country.

 

[Born To Slay]

Democrats are not slammed/questioned by the media (except for softball questions). Bad news about Democrats is also censored by the media. Compare Trump's townhall with Biden's townhall. Trump's base gets energized every time they see poor Trump being mistreated.

The Republicans have their own media. Fox News spent 8 years demonizing President Obama.

 

[Born To Slay]

I think Democrats put themselves first (which is obvious as they always seek freebies). I personally do not think they love the country. Who is more likely to burn/spit on/trample on the U.S. flag, for example? Who refuses to take the pledge of allegiance? Who kneels down during the national anthem? The problem with asking for a lot of freebies is that freebies only last so long, after a while, there are consequences such as countries going bankrupt which is bad for future generations.

So basically since democrats are less likely to engage in nationalist jerking off the flag they don't love America as much? Maybe they don't think hyperjingoism is good for America. I certainly don't.

 

[Lilah]

The Republicans have their own media. Fox News spent 8 years demonizing President Obama.

Fox News does not entirely support Trump; they have people like Chris Wallace, closet Democrats (like Shepherd Smith before) and Bush-type Republicans like Dana Perino. In any case, there are way more liberal news channels like ABC, NBC (MSNBC), CBS, CNN. Afternoon shows like "The View," "The Real," are all liberal. For non-TV options, conservative papers like NY Post get censored, and conservative sites such as BreitBart show up way bottom in Google search results, if at all. Basically all print media is liberal. The Left definitely dominates the media.

 

[Lilah]

What percentage of democrats do you think have ever burned the flag? I 100% believe many more conservatives have spit on mask wearers than dems have spit on the flag but it would be wrong to use that to make a point of "conservatives are more likely to spit on mask wearers" as a kind of moral superiority statement.

I will agree that I find the "pledge of allegiance" a bit off putting (pledging allegiance to a symbol?) but I never refused it in school.

I think if you really love someone or something you see their beauty and their faults otherwise it seems more like worship than love.

The left loves this country. So much we want "and justice for all" to be a reality for everyone.

And it was never actually about the kneeling to conservatives either otherwise they wouldn't have booed the compromise "locked arms in racial solidarity" gesture done before and separately from the anthem at the opening Kansas City game.

As far as freebies, literally no one gets more freebies in this country than the top 1% and that's what is really bankrupting the country.

The Democrats' silence when other fellow Democrats burn/trample on the flag is deafening.

I have not heard of any Republicans spit on mask wearers. Republicans are not the violent type to do that sort of thing. Seems like fake news.

Republicans also believe that all lives matter and want justice for all.

 

[Greg Sacramento]

Both parties are controlled by the rich and most national politician holders are also rich. They own real estate investment and stocks and they don't care about your tinnitus life. They don't care that you don't have a tinnitus safety net. Your vote, your tinnitus disability doesn't matter to them.

I doubt that Biden or Trump knows what hyperacusis means. I posted over two years ago, that I wrote to California US House and Senate members about tinnitus and their aides said very few have tinnitus and it's not an overwhelming or harmful condition. So if they don't care about you, why should you care about them.

 

[FGG]

Both parties are controlled by the rich and most national politician holders are also rich. They own real estate investment and stocks and they don't care about your tinnitus life. They don't care that you don't have a tinnitus safety net. Your vote, your tinnitus doesn't matter to them. Your disability does not matter to them. I doubt that Biden or Trump knows what hyperacusis means.

This quote by Marianne Williamson sums it up for me: "I'm not anti-capitalist; I think the most enlightened society has aspects of capitalism & socialism. But we've drifted into a virulent strain of capitalism, with no ethical or moral responsibility to people or planet."