2020 US Presidential Election

[TeeOh]

So what, in your mind, is a sustainable system?

And what do such people think comes next and do they think it would be better than what we have now?

Not too sure to be honest, but whatever comes after the collapse, that I do know. That's what accelerationism wants to find out. Some reckon socialism, some reckon techno-fascism etc depending on the accelerationists political beliefs and end goals.

They think a system we have today is too fragile and that it's destined to collapse. So their belief is that we should just accelerate it to get it over and done with so we can transition to a new world like how we moved on from feudalism. I guess you could say accelerationists have no patience and just want to find out what is the ending and what comes after.

Unless there's a pee-tape somewhere, he is an unintentional Putin puppet.

I also don't think you have to be a "western imperialist" to point out Trump's pathetic weakness with Russia, like with bounty-gate. It's reasonable to call him out on that.

You can believe what you want, but I'm not going buy into Trump being a Putin puppet.

If that's the case then Germany, considered the leader of the EU, might as well be a puppet state of Russia as they're surprisingly less hostile to Russia than the US (Including under Obama) and want to continue to strengthen economic ties like the gas they keep buying. I mean even both Russia and the EU have spoke about co-operating on de-dollarisation together more recently.

Then again if I was Angela Merkel I would be a little peeved if I found out the US government was spying on everything I do for decades. That has more truth to it than Trump being a Putin Puppet. I don't find war against Russia reasonable, neither the wars in the middle east and I rather have less of it.

I am just, um, sensing a pattern here with your rhetoric. Vaguely Noam Chomsky monolithic anti-Americanism and self-flagellation.

I have actually read 'manufacturing consent' by him which is a pretty good book about propaganda. WMD's from Iraq was manufactured consent.

He has some pretty good takes in his earlier days, but over the past years he has gotten worse where he started speaking too much nonsense. He also kept going over the top about Trump being worse than Hitler even though he has directly murdered less Iraqi's than Bush. Might be old age.

The pattern you're seeing is that I follow the thought of anti-imperialism, but I think most people figured that out here as I'm pretty open about it to everyone I speak to.

 

[GlennS]

If that's the case then Germany, considered the leader of the EU, might as well be a puppet state of Russia as they're surprisingly less hostile to Russia than the US

Oh, really? Germany is the country that took in Navalny after he was poisoned--basically saved his life.

Russia's Navalny accuses Putin of being behind his poisoning

If Germany behaved like Trump then it would have covered up and denied any evidence of poisoning.

No offense, but I just don't think you're mounting good arguments here.

I don't find war against Russia reasonable

Huh? There is a wide range of policies between being a lapdog to the point of shrugging off bounties on our soldiers and going to war on the other.

A little less black and white thinking on your part would help.

The problem with being "anti-imperialism" is it tends to settle out into nothing more nuanced than "anti-american" or "anti-west" and to ignore the idea that OTHER countries can just become the new imperial powers, i.e. Russia and China, and that they might, ya know, actually cause a lot more pain and suffering than western powers ever did. But implicit in "anti-imperialism" is the false notion that weaker powers should be coddled. That's why the left wrings its hands so much over the Palestinians. It's the whole oppressor/oppressed narrative which in the end just excuses violence. This is also evidenced in how the left seems to give tacit approval to BLM riots. Once you deem a group a "victim" then their misdeeds are always excusable. The more power you have, the more evil you are. The less power, the more good (even if you're setting off nail-bombs in pizza restaurants). It's just a real wrongheaded way to look at right and wrong and this actually FUELS the culture-war aspect of Trumpism.

 

[TeeOh]

Oh, really? Germany is the country that took in Navalny after he was poisoned--basically saved his life.

Russia's Navalny accuses Putin of being behind his poisoning

If Germany behaved like Trump then it would have covered up and denied any evidence of poisoning.

No offense, but I just don't think you're mounting good arguments here.

The same Trump that put sanctions on Russia? If I was Putin I would question his loyalty because that would really screw up the country I'm trying to rule and keep stable that's currently economically depressed. The EU and Russia weren't exactly close friends anyways, that I do know and will admit, however the economic relations between the EU and US have become unreliable to the point where it encouraged de-dollarisation between the 3 non-US major powers (EU, China and Russia) is what I'm saying. Plus the fact the EU is trying to find more reliable economic partners which is the only thing that matters to the Union not the US economic interests, hence them speeding up the economic deals with China (they didn't listen with fully banning huawei either, but the UK who left the EU did soon they need a trade deal with the US after screwing relations with the EU) and buying up more gas from Russia. That and the fact I still don't buy Trump being a Putin puppet unless it's more true than the US government spying on Angela Merkel, so at the mean time, it's just conjecture.

Like I said believe what you want, I'm not here to change your mind, that's up to you on your own.

Huh? There is a wide range of policies between being a lapdog to the point of shrugging off bounties on our soldiers and going to war on the other.

A little less black and white thinking on your part would help.

The problem with being "anti-imperialism" is it tends to settle out into nothing more nuanced than "anti-american" or "anti-west" and to ignore the idea that OTHER countries can just become the new imperial powers, i.e. Russia and China, and that they might, ya know, actually cause a lot more pain and suffering than western powers ever did. But implicit in "anti-imperialism" is the false notion that weaker powers should be coddled. That's why the left wrings its hands so much over the Palestinians. It's the whole oppressor/oppressed narrative which in the end just excuses violence. This is also evidenced in how the left seems to give tacit approval to BLM riots. Once you deem a group a "victim" then their misdeeds are always excusable. The more power you have, the more evil you are. The less power, the more good (even if you're setting off nail-bombs in pizza restaurants). It's just a real wrongheaded way to look at right and wrong and this actually FUELS the culture-war aspect of Trumpism.

I want the wars and foreign oppression to stop, and that's it. I'm just going on what I have learnt based on history and the current conditions of today, and you don't have to agree with me either, just that's the conclusion I have come to. Believe what you want to believe as I have said. We can go around in loops, but I still don't believe Trump is Putin's puppet and that war with Russia is just unnecessary, and that's as far as it goes which hasn't changed since the Trump-Russian conspiracy theories started.

Care to agree to disagree?

 

[Luman]

The U.S. has the most transparent national intelligence in the world. No other nation even comes close. We need to get back in step with the rest of the world and stop revealing everything, for better or worse, that we've done. Any other nation can do whatever they please, and get away with it, because the pubic is deprived of information. Everything we do is out there for the world to see, and criticize. Is this fair? Until most other nations have transparency, we should end the transparency of our intelligence agencies.

 

[Born To Slay]

The U.S. has most transparent national intelligence in the world. No other nation even comes close. We need to get back in step with the rest of the world and stop revealing everything, for better or worse, that we've done. Any other nation can do whatever they please, and get away with it, because the pubic is deprived of information. Everything we do is out there for the world to see, and criticize. Is this fair? Until most other nations have transparency, we should not be the only nation that does.

I disagree with this. The American government is supposed to serve the American people and therefore the public should have as much insight as possible what their government is doing, without putting national security at risk.

There's more important things than some people criticizing the United States. We're the richest most powerful nation on earth. We can deal with a few haters. We don't need to get rid of transparency and deprive voters of information to save our image.

 

[GlennS]

If I was Putin I would question his loyalty

Again, black and white thinking. Putin still sees the US and Trump as an adversary but he has exploited him as much as he can. Same with North Korea. Go read Bolton's book if you want to know more about this strange dynamic. Stop getting hung up on some narrow definition of puppet. It's hard not to see that Trump has often inexplicably run defense for Putin--despite sanctions.

There should be a way to ride a fine line and have a more constructive relationship with Russia without sacrificing your national security or national interests to the degree Trump has done.

I want the wars and foreign oppression to stop

Wouldn't we all? Unfortunately sometimes war comes to you whether you like it or not.

But Trump, despite his isolationism, is not a diplomat nor is he a pacifist. Given that he almost went through with an attack on Iran's nuclear facilities recently is proof positive of that. And if Iran hadn't blown up a passenger plane we'd probably have already been in war with Iran due to the killing of Soleimani.

Trump is this inkblot to so many people. They see in him what they want to see and ignore what doesn't fit the mold. Think of how evangelicals inexplicably worship him, or Cubans and some black males vote for him despite his racism.

 

[TeeOh]

The U.S. has most transparent national intelligence in the world.

Edward Snowden and Julian Assange would like a word with you. Also Denmark is actually number #1 in the world for least corruption not the US; Uruguay in South America scored lower in corruption than the US -

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_Perceptions_Index

 

[TeeOh]

Again, black and white thinking. Putin still sees the US and Trump as an adversary but he has exploited him as much as he can. Same with North Korea. Go read Bolton's book if you want to know more about this strange dynamic. Stop getting hung up on some narrow definition of puppet. It's hard not to see that Trump has often inexplicably run defense for Putin--despite sanctions.

There should be a way to ride a fine line and have a more constructive relationship with Russia without sacrificing your national security or national interests to the degree Trump has done.

When I said Putin Puppet, I'm mocking and exaggerating the propaganda getting parroted by talk show hosts. Of course I know they don't mean the FSB trained and brainwashed Trump (which is another exaggerated comment I'm making). I don't trust John Bolton to be honest considering he's known as an "architect" of the illegal Iraq war which was based on the WMD lies. Oh he also made lies about Cuba having WMD's at a similar time, which is a country already under a brutal embargo where 191 countries at the UN voted to end it except 2. That lie he made about Cuba was based on mere conjecture too. He's been an advocate for regime change in multiple countries as well and constantly makes lies up to justify more atrocities. I'll pass on his book even if it bashes Trump or throws some jokes on him.

Wouldn't we all? Unfortunately sometimes war comes to you whether you like it or not.

But Trump, despite his isolationism, is not a diplomat nor is he a pacifist. Given that he almost went through with an attack on Iran's nuclear facilities recently is proof positive of that. And if Iran hadn't blown up a passenger plane we'd probably have already been in war with Iran due to the killing of Soleimani.

Trump is this inkblot to so many people. They see in him what they want to see and ignore what doesn't fit the mold. Think of how evangelicals inexplicably worship him, or Cubans and some black males vote for him despite his racism.

I never had a favourable opinion of Trump and never really considered him anti-war; far from it actually which I have spoke about plenty of times. The only thing I said was positive was his 0 experience in foreign policy and how he technically didn't start any new wars (which is a good thing) like how Bush and Obama did. So less destruction and mass killings of the global south. After seeing 'Collateral Murder' which is apparently very common in those wars, it would be nice for people to not experience that again or if not possible for now, willing to make a compromise for less of it.

 

[PeteJ]

You cited them. I agree lol. That was your idea.

So what? Is this your way of trolling?

I chose a random link that provides info that accomplishes two things, proof of the liberal nonsense and info on him.

The MSM portray the group as a far right white nationalist organization which is absurd. I have to assume you are just trolling certain people. ZugZug does it, too.

 

[PeteJ]

It's basically that the idea of capitalism and its historically associated processes is accelerated to its inevitable collapse, kinda like how feudalism collapsed everywhere else.

Some people actually apply the philosophy lol. Accelerationist are basically like "This is a painful experience. Can we get it over and done with quickly?". They believe instead of overcoming the common problems that plagues society, that we should just accelerate its collapse.

Both left wingers and right wingers have different methods and end goals to achieving collapse hoping to be replaced by a different system. Both do agree on one thing however, and that is just do nothing(abstain from voting, protesting, improving society etc etc) and of course both hate recycling and prefer to use plastic straws, including the average ex green party member accelerationist.

2020 is basically an accelerationist wet dream as some people say.

What "right wing" are you talking about?

Left wingers want collapse. The Elites want collapse. They are neither traditionally left nor right but they pacify and cater to the left, they censor, criminalize or punish anything right wing. Whatever you call right wing is fake or faux, controlled and thus, tolerated or utilized to mislead genuine right wingers astray.

There is a move towards a leftist order and you might have come across the term, 'the great reset?'

Moronic liberals here will probably shrug it off but it's real.

 

[Born To Slay]

So what? Is this your way of trolling?

I chose a random link that provides info that accomplishes two things, proof of the liberal nonsense and info on him.

The MSM portray the group as a far right white nationalist organization which is absurd. I have to assume you are just trolling certain people. ZugZug does it, too.

Your link said he's a fair right, neofascist. It doesn't prove a damn thing.

 

[TeeOh]

What "right wing" are you talking about?

Left wingers want collapse. The Elites want collapse. They are neither traditionally left nor right but they pacify and cater to the left, they censor, criminalize or punish anything right wing. Whatever you call right wing is fake or faux, controlled and thus, tolerated or utilized to mislead genuine right wingers astray.

There is a move towards a leftist order and you might have come across the term, 'the great reset?'

Moronic liberals here will probably shrug it off but it's real.

It doesn't matter what side of the political spectrum you're on, every ideology have their own methods to achieving radical change. Go to any forum relating to a specific political ideology and you'll find a bunch of folks discussing their own tactics whether that's Communism or Fascism.

It's not the average Trump voter that I do know, and that's because they have faith in the current system, same for liberals. White Supremacists and Neo-Nazis who don't have faith in the current system and are as far right as it gets have spoken about using tactics like causing racial division, spreading crazy conspiracy theories, spreading White Supremacist propaganda targeted at the youth online etc etc. These tactics have resulted in cases like the El Paso mass shooting which was related to white supremacy. Remember before Adolf Hitler there was an economic collapse. Below is a random example.

"Mason believes that Nazis cannot take power as long as the existing U.S. government remains in place. He advocates murder and violence to create chaos and anarchy and destabilize the system."

"In 1980, Mason took over writing Siege, the newsletter of the NSLF. He continued publishing until 1986. In the newsletter, Mason paid tribute to Adolf Hitler, Joseph Tommasi, Charles Manson, and Savitri Devi. He also advocated random attacks and murders in order to destabilize society. In 1992, the newsletters were edited and published in book form as Siege: The Collected Writings of James Mason by Michael Jenkins Moynihan. The book acquired a neo-Nazi following and is now required reading for initiates of the Atomwaffen Division."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Mason_(neo-Nazi)

 

[Luman]

I disagree with this. The American government is supposed to serve the American people and therefore the public should have as much insight as possible what their government is doing, without putting national security at risk.

There's more important things than some people criticizing the United States. We're the richest most powerful nation on earth. We can deal with a few haters. We don't need to get rid of transparency and deprive voters of information to save our image.

So basically, we are not supposed to hide anything as far as our intelligence agencies, other than when it's absolutely necessary, because voters should know virtually everything that goes on. This has not always been the case, it all changed in the mid-70's with "investigative reporting", by Seymour Hirsh, something that no other country allows, regarding their intelligence. agencies.

Our reward for transparency is hatred by the rest the world, mostly by countries far worse than we ever were, who hide everything, and use our transparency against us.

We have become a nation of, to coin Malcom X's term, "Chumps.".

 

[Born To Slay]

So basically, we are supposed to not have any national security in the world of our intelligence agencies, because voters should know everything that goes on. This has not always been the case, it all changed in the mid-70's with "investigative reporting", by Seymour Hirsh, something that no other country allows, regarding their intelligence. agencies.

Our reward for transparency is hatred by the rest the world, with much of them being far worse than we ever were, who hide everything, and use our transparency against us.

We have become a nation of, to coin Malcom X's term, "Chumps.".

https://www.cia.gov/library/center-...nce/kent-csi/vol20no2/html/v20i2a01p_0001.htm

I didn't say 100% transparency. The public should be allowed to know as much as is safe for them to know.

Once again, fuck other countries hating us. Why do you care? What are they going to do? We're the United States.

 

[Born To Slay]

Mike Pence, Mitt Romney Lead Poll for 2024 Republican Presidential Candidate—but Only if Trump Doesn't Run

Donald Trump is leading the primary race for the 2024 nomination, this is going to be fun.

 

[PeteJ]

Your link said he's a fair right, neofascist. It doesn't prove a damn thing.

Whatever, troll.

 

[PeteJ]

It doesn't matter what side of the political spectrum you're on, every ideology have their own methods to achieving radical change. Go to any forum relating to a specific political ideology and you'll find a bunch of folks discussing their own tactics whether that's Communism or Fascism.

It's not the average Trump voter that I do know, and that's because they have faith in the current system, same for liberals. White Supremacists and Neo-Nazis who don't have faith in the current system and are as far right as it gets have spoken about using tactics like causing racial division, spreading crazy conspiracy theories, spreading White Supremacist propaganda targeted at the youth online etc etc. These tactics have resulted in cases like the El Paso mass shooting which was related to white supremacy. Remember before Adolf Hitler there was an economic collapse. Below is a random example.

"Mason believes that Nazis cannot take power as long as the existing U.S. government remains in place. He advocates murder and violence to create chaos and anarchy and destabilize the system."

"In 1980, Mason took over writing Siege, the newsletter of the NSLF. He continued publishing until 1986. In the newsletter, Mason paid tribute to Adolf Hitler, Joseph Tommasi, Charles Manson, and Savitri Devi. He also advocated random attacks and murders in order to destabilize society. In 1992, the newsletters were edited and published in book form as Siege: The Collected Writings of James Mason by Michael Jenkins Moynihan. The book acquired a neo-Nazi following and is now required reading for initiates of the Atomwaffen Division."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Mason_(neo-Nazi)

I was talking about the Proud Boys and the MSM's description of them.

You're rambling on.

 

[TeeOh]

I was talking about the Proud Boys and the MSM's description of them.

You're rambling on.

I wasn't even talking about Proud Boys either???

If I recall correctly they support the current system that elected Trump and would have voted 4 more years of him (faith in maintaining the system), so therefore they don't fit the bill I was talking about the whole time. Same for people who put faith into voting for Biden.

You're getting mixed up again.

 

[Ken219]

P.T. Barnum:

"The public appears disposed to be amused even when they are conscious of being deceived."

"There's a sucker born every minute."

 

[Luman]

I didn't say 100% transparency. The public should be allowed to know as much as is safe for them to know.

Once again, fuck other countries hating us. Why do you care? What are they going to do? We're the United States.

What are they going to do? Excuse me if I'm wrong but that might be quite an easy thing for most people to say. I witnessed what they did, in lower Manhattan, in person, on February 26, 1993, and September 11, 2001.

 

[PeteJ]

I wasn't even talking about Proud Boys either???

If I recall correctly they support the current system that elected Trump and would have voted 4 more years of him (faith in maintaining the system), so therefore they don't fit the bill I was talking about the whole time. Same for people who put faith into voting for Biden.

You're getting mixed up again.

The only one confused is you.

I was replying to your other trollish friend about the accusation by the MSM that "right wing" violence is as bad or worse than violence perpetrated by the left and far left. BtoS cited a garbage article by the Economist which used an example of the Proud Boys, which is often described as a "white supremacist' organization but their leader is LATINO. Anyway, it's sad I have to repeat my point but yours whatever it is, was irrelevant.

Why is it so difficult for you two to understand?!?

It was just a brief point on how the MSM lies and spins BS.

 

[GlennS]

If I recall correctly they support the current system that elected Trump

Movements that brand themselves as being against the current system (think "drain the swamp") continue to think of themselves as fighting against the status quo even after they BECOME the current system.

 

[Born To Slay]

What are they going to do? Excuse me if I'm wrong but that might be quite an easy thing for most people to say. I witnessed what they did, in lower Manhattan, in person, on February 26, 1993, and September 11, 2001.

First of all, my condolences to you for having experienced that.

But there's a very low chance of something like that happening again and at the end of the day, in a democracy for and by the people, the people shouldn't be shut out of what's going on with their tax dollars.

 

[TeeOh]

The only one confused is you.

Hahahaha. You thought I wanted troops to stay in Afghanistan where I had to explain it twice soon my previous comments on wars/imperialism (which was a dozen comments) wasn't already clear enough.

Then you got extremely confused at that comment when I said I didn't believe Trump was Putin's puppet, but your reading comprehension interpreted as I did believe in it (which I made very clear twice before including that post you replied to and there was an older post before it).

Then you bring up Proud Boys who I didn't even mention once in this whole thread and my posts wasn't even related to them one bit. They don't fit the criteria of wanting a violent overthrow of the system that elected Trump which was the whole point I was talking about which you being something of an expert in Proud Boys should know well.

Then there was that Proud Boys Wikipedia moment you had with Born To Slay... lmao.

I was replying to your other trollish friend about the accusation by the MSM that "right wing" violence is as bad or worse than violence perpetrated by the left and far left. BtoS cited a garbage article by the Economist which used an example of the Proud Boys, which is often described as a "white supremacist' organization but their leader is LATINO. Anyway, it's sad I have to repeat my point but yours whatever it is, was irrelevant.

Why is it so difficult for you two to understand?!?

It was just a brief point on how the MSM lies and spins BS.

That's enough internet for today.

 

[just1morething]

A little mental slip up by Biden. I suppose at 78 that could happen to anyone. Hard to say if it's dementia or not. I first thought he was talking about George Washington but maybe George Bush?

 

[TeeOh]

Movements that brand themselves as being against the current system (think "drain the swamp") continue to think of themselves as fighting against the status quo even after they BECOME the current system.

I was thinking more along of the lines of people who want a complete overthrow of the system like the neo nazi guy I mentioned who wanted to destroy the government because he thought that it was the only possible way to have a ethnostate.

To me the guys you are talking about, they're more like adopting the current system because they already have faith in it to begin with by taking part in the elections(I assume that other neo nazi guy doesn't vote if he doesn't believe in the current government. Not saying all boycott, but that's my assumption), but they want to evolve the system to their ideals over time. Basically they will always be the same issues of today except at some parts amplified.

 

[Luman]

First of all, my condolences to you for having experienced that.

But there's a very low chance of something like that happening again and at the end of the day, in a democracy for and by the people, the people shouldn't be shut out of what's going on with their tax dollars.

What I experienced was nothing compared to the 3,000 dead and their families, not to mention the war in Afghanistan, and further attacks on America, such as the 2013 Boston marathon, which was also carried out by Islamic terrorists.

If you want to make the intelligence agencies transparent, because you insist on revealing everything to the taxpayers, and in turn the entire world, you are opening up this country to attacks from our enemies, which leads to death, destruction, and war because our intelligence agencies cannot do their jobs effectively, and other catastrophic results. We are the only chumps in the world stupid enough to do this.

 

[Born To Slay]

What I experienced was nothing compared to the 3,000 dead and their families, not to mention the war in Afghanistan, and further attacks on America, such as the 2013 Boston marathon, which was also carried out by Islamic terrorists.

If you want to make the intelligence agencies transparent, because you insist on revealing everything to the taxpayers, and in turn the entire world, you are opening up this country to attacks from our enemies, which leads to death, destruction, and war because our intelligence agencies cannot do their jobs effectively, and other catastrophic results. We are the only chumps in the world stupid enough to do this.

So is Europe also to transparent in your opinion? They also get terrorist attacks.

And don't blame the war in Afghanistan on this. That was just completely unnecessary.

 

[Zugzug]

A little mental slip up by Biden. I suppose at 78 that could happen to anyone. Hard to say if it's dementia or not. I first thought he was talking about George Washington but maybe George Bush?

It's no secret that Biden's mental state is slipping (so is Trump's). I just trust that he's a little more self-aware over the matter. If at any point, Biden starts thinking he's the smartest person in the room, I will not support this.

 

[TeeOh]

If at any point, Biden starts thinking he's the smartest person in the room, I will not support this.

Or challenging people who insult his intelligence to an IQ test battle.