2020 US Presidential Election

[Luman]

Colin Kaepernick, I forgot who he was. If he wants to be a politician, then he can go and do that now. They should have fired him sooner. 99% of the people in this country would have been fired for bringing politics to the job, what makes him so special? Want to stop police brutality, once and for all? Get rid of the police unions that protect bad cops, and start firing them.

https://moneyinc.com/colin-kaepernick-net-worth/

 

[Lucifer]

How did the celebrities and media control the results of the election? The conservatives have their own media, Tucker Carlson is the most popular commentator after all and Fox News is the most popular media outlet. So the right is not doing a bad job getting their message out. What they lack in quantity, they've managed to make up for.

The election was pretty damn close. The Democrats barely won the house, the Senate is so close it's still contested now and the Presidency was somewhat close also. If the "liberal media" is in control, they suck at their jobs.

I just stated how they did it. This is the first time when I saw an election completely controlled by the Hollywood left and the media. They were posting anti-Trump posts and telling their fans to vote Democratic. There were some celebrities out in the left who were trying to cancel the people on the right for voting Republican. 50 Cent was going to vote for Republican until Chelsea Handler made it such a big deal by saying "Don't I need to remind you that you're black" which is clearly voter intimidation.

You will never see this type of voter intimidation happening in other countries such as the UK, Australia and New Zealand using celebrities and telling people who to vote for.

 

[Daniel Lion]

I don't agree that Colin Kaepernick should have been fired from the NFL. That was totally wrong for them to do. There is still a chance that he could be back in the NFL but another possibility for him to play again is to play in the XFL which is owned by Dwayne Johnson.

I agree with you that there is a cancel culture with both the left and right but the left have far more things to cancel someone out than the right.

You should study Mohamed Ali's career. Canceled and thrown in jail for his out spoken views and refusal to go to Vietnam, he did that differently than Trump who received papers saying he had bone spurs. Anyways, he was eventually celebrated as an American hero.

From Jack Johnson, Jacky Robinson, to Billy Jean King to Hamilton driving cars...... athletes have always weighed into politics even when they were silent. People are more than a sports figure or celebrity as you know ... spiritual and political callings are free to all people in the US as civil liberties

 

[Lucifer]

Be specific. Who got "cancelled" or is being fired for having pro life views? Maybe I'm not understanding what you mean by cancelled. Justin Bieber is very pro life. How is he not "cancelled"?

Is criticism being "cancelled" to you? Because google will show you there are plenty of pro life Hollywood celebrities with zero boycott movements. But no one should be above criticism or the right of the consumer to watch what they want to.

@Zugzug had a great example earlier in the thread. Should the right be forced to watch the NFL as not to participate in "cancel culture" or should people be free to allow moral judgement to play into their entertainment decisions?

I was just using pro-life as example. I don't think any celebrities have been cancelled for their pro-life views yet but it may happen in the future when people think it's clearly not right to have pro-life views.

I know there have been some celebrities out there that got cancelled for tweets that they posted in the past such as James Gunn and Hartley Sawyer. I am glad they allowed James Gunn back as director of Guardians of the Galaxy 3 but so far they have shun Hartley by not allowing him back in his role as Ralph Dibney in the Flash. I still hope they can reconsider him in the future.

 

[Zugzug]

Be specific. Who got "cancelled" or is being fired for having pro life views? Maybe I'm not understanding what you mean by cancelled. Justin Bieber is very pro life. How is he not "cancelled"?

Is criticism being "cancelled" to you? Because google will show you there are plenty of pro life Hollywood celebrities with zero boycott movements. But no one should be above criticism or the right of the consumer to watch what they want to.

@Zugzug had a great example earlier in the thread. Should the right be forced to watch the NFL as not to participate in "cancel culture" or should people be free to allow moral judgement to play into their entertainment decisions?

There's a lot of correlation, as opposed to causation, when it comes to cancel culture. The part that's a huge problem, and I think everyone in this thread would agree with, is the causative aspect. For example, people instructing others to not buy from someone just because. I mostly have strong opinions on this subject for that reason -- such as the president outright encouraging this tribal way of thinking.

On the other hand, if someone, all on their own, simply decides that Colin Kaepernick is not their idol anymore, why should they be forced to buy his jersey? If they would rather not watch him play football on Sunday, why should they have to? This is basic economics, and frankly, is a right wing view point. The reason why Trump getting involved bothered me is because it was taking people who otherwise may have lived with it, and actively imposing fascist economics. Not cool at all.

The reason why I mentioned correlation is because this is really prevalent in any art. If I cancel a musician, the most likely reason is that their lyrics mean something different to me. The less likely reason is that I love every word they say and agree with all of their thoughts, but want to make some stand.

It truly amazes me that conservatives would get on a high horse about cancel culture. Economic freedom is like the #1 thing that describes conservatives. I'm pretty sure not buying art from someone I no longer like is like economic freedom 101.

 

[Lucifer]

@FGG

I may be mixing cancel culture and criticism but I'm just worried that now and in the future we can no longer have difference in opinions when it comes to certain things and this may lead to people losing their jobs and career for their views.

 

[FGG]

I was just using pro-life as example. I don't think any celebrities have been cancelled for their pro-life views yet but it may happen in the future when people think it's clearly not right to have pro-life views.

I know there have been some celebrities out there that got cancelled for tweets that they posted in the past such as James Gunn and Hartley Sawyer. I am glad they allowed James Gunn back as director of Guardians of the Galaxy 3 but so far they have shun Hartley by not allowing him back in his role as Ralph Dibney in the Flash. I still hope they can reconsider him in the future.

Hartley literally said he likes date rape as it's better than masturbation. I hope you can see this is reeeeaaallly different than being pro life and why that's not some harbinger of a slippery slope that right wing YouTube stars love to rile people up around.

 

[FGG]

There's a lot of correlation, as opposed to causation, when it comes to cancel culture. The part that's a huge problem, and I think everyone in this thread would agree with, is the causative aspect. For example, people instructing others to not buy from someone just because. I mostly have strong opinions on this subject for that reason -- such as the president outright encouraging this tribal way of thinking.

On the other hand, if someone, all on their own, simply decides that Colin Kaepernick is not their idol anymore, why should they be forced to buy his jersey? If they would rather not watch him play football on Sunday, why should they have to? This is basic economics, and frankly, is a right wing view point. The reason why Trump getting involved bothered me is because it was taking people who otherwise may have lived with it, and actively imposing fascist economics. Not cool at all.

The reason why I mentioned correlation is because this is really prevalent in any art. If I cancel a musician, the most likely reason is that their lyrics mean something different to me. The less likely reason is that I love every word they say and agree with all of their thoughts, but want to make some stand.

It truly amazes me that conservatives would get on a high horse about cancel culture. Economic freedom is like the #1 thing that describes conservatives. I'm pretty sure not buying art from someone I no longer like is like economic freedom 101.

Right! It's literally the most anti free market stance you can take. It's totally hypocritical.

 

[FGG]

@FGG

I may be mixing cancel culture and criticism but I'm just worried that now and in the future we can no longer have difference in opinions when it comes to certain things and this may lead to people losing their jobs and career for their views.

I think you are but do you really want to argue against the right to criticize?

 

[Lucifer]

Hartley literally said he likes date rape as it's better than masturbation. I hope you can see this is reeeeaaallly different than being pro life and why that's not some harbinger of a slippery slope that right wing YouTube stars love to rile people up around.

I don't agree with the things he said in the past. Whether he has really changed or not that only he knows but to hold someone against the tweets they have posted in the past, if he really did change for the better, is something I don't agree with.

His whole arc in the Flash was about being a better person than he was before so it's kind of ironic that if he has changed and become a better person he loses his role just because of his old tweets resurfacing.

To be honest I think the things he posted in the past were just dark humour and ever since he got the role in the Flash he hasn't posted stuff like that anymore. I know someone in real life that likes using dark humour but definitely not my cup of tea though.

 

[Lucifer]

I think you are but do you really want to argue against the right to criticize?

If we did, there would be no end to it. We would just go around in circles all day lol.

 

[FGG]

I don't agree with the things he said in the past. Whether he has really changed or not that only he knows but to hold someone against the tweets they have posted in the past, if he really did change for the better, is something I don't agree with.

His whole arc in the Flash was about being a better person than he was before so it's kind of ironic that if he has changed and become a better person he loses his role just because of his old tweets resurfacing.

To be honest I think the things he posted in the past were just dark humour and ever since he got the role in the Flash he hasn't posted stuff like that anymore. I know someone in real life that likes using dark humour but definitely not my cup of tea though.

Yeah if he truly meant it as dark humor, then it is absolutely unfair to punish him for it. And honestly, I would *hope* that would be just dark humor.

So perhaps that is an overreaction. I would like to hear his commentary on it.

 

[Born To Slay]

I just stated how they did it. This is the first time when I saw an election completely controlled by the Hollywood left and the media. They were posting anti-Trump posts and telling their fans to vote Democratic. There were some celebrities out in the left who were trying to cancel the people on the right for voting Republican. 50 Cent was going to vote for Republican until Chelsea Handler made it such a big deal by saying "Don't I need to remind you that you're black" which is clearly voter intimidation.

You will never see this type of voter intimidation happening in other countries such as the UK, Australia and New Zealand using celebrities and telling people who to vote for.

Seriously? Minor criticism is now voter intimidation? Public supporting a candidate is controlling the election? Why are Americans such fucking pussies that this counts as a scandal? In other countries people have balls and wouldn't complain about this.

Like really, if I wanted to criticize 50 Cent for supporting Trump, isn't that my first amendment right? If I no longer want to buy his products as a result, is that not my right as well? How is that intimation? That's the free market, aka the Republican's God, at work.

 

[Born To Slay]

Colin Kaepernick, I forgot who he was. If he wants to be a politician, then he can go and do that now. They should have fired him sooner. 99% of the people in this country would have been fired for bringing politics to the job, what makes him so special? Want to stop police brutality, once and for all? Get rid of the police unions that protect bad cops, and start firing them.

https://moneyinc.com/colin-kaepernick-net-worth/

See! Look whose for cancel culture now! You canceling Colin for his views is no different then canceling 50 Cent for his.

 

[Lucifer]

Seriously? Minor criticism is now voter intimidation? Public supporting a candidate is controlling the election? Why are Americans such fucking pussies that this counts as a scandal? In other countries people have balls and wouldn't complain about this.

Like really, if I wanted to criticize 50 Cent for supporting Trump, isn't that my first amendment right? If I no longer want to buy his products as a result, is that not my right as well? How is that intimation? That's the free market, aka the Republican's God, at work.

That may be how things are done in the USA by politicians such as Trump and Biden using Hollywood celebrities to tell people who to vote for but it's definitely not something that happens in NZ.

I have no problem with Hollywood celebrities encouraging people to vote in elections but they cross the line by telling their fans who they vote for and asking their fans to vote for who they are voting for.

The NZ politicians don't use that kind of shit to gain votes in an election. There is a clear separation between politicians and celebrities in NZ.

There would be so much backlash in NZ if they pulled that kinda shit just to gain votes how Biden and Trump did.

 

[Zugzug]

I mean this respectfully. I don't know what the right wingers in this thread see. I see millions of people who have been waiting 4 years to try to vote Trump out. No one breathing down their necks making them do it. Is it really that hard to believe that Trump is just an irredeemable asshole?

 

[Tanni]

You will never see this type of voter intimidation happening in other countries such as the UK, Australia and New Zealand using celebrities and telling people who to vote for.

I agree with you that it does seem people were made to feel guilty if they expressed an intention of voting for Trump. I think that's why the polls are always wrong; people don't want to be honest about their candidate for fear of judgement.

I don't think this is an American thing, I think it crops up whenever there is a controversial, contentious issue with a lot at stake. We had it in the UK over Brexit, where people were leaned on to vote a certain way and the 'leavers' felt that they had to keep quiet about their vote. Scotland had it over their referendum to leave Britain.

I think it only happened this year because people felt so strongly about Trump.

EDIT: Looking at @Born To Slay's comment below, maybe I was wrong. If America does always have celebrity endorsement regardless of candidate, then yes that is different to the UK.

 

[Born To Slay]

That may be how things are done in the USA by politicians such as Trump and Biden using Hollywood celebrities to tell people who to vote for but it's definitely not something that happens in NZ.

I have no problem with Hollywood celebrities encouraging people to vote in elections but they cross the line by telling their fans who they vote for and asking their fans to vote for who they are voting for.

The NZ politicians don't use that kind of shit to gain votes in an election. There is a clear separation between politicians and celebrities in NZ.

There would be so much backlash in NZ if they pulled that kinda shit just to gain votes how Biden and Trump did.

That's a fascinating cultural difference, here in the US both parties go crazy trying to get celebrities to endorse and campaign for them. That's very interesting to know about NZ.

 

[FGG]

That may be how things are done in the USA by politicians such as Trump and Biden using Hollywood celebrities to tell people who to vote for but it's definitely not something that happens in NZ.

I have no problem with Hollywood celebrities encouraging people to vote in elections but they cross the line by telling their fans who they vote for and asking their fans to vote for who they are voting for.

The NZ politicians don't use that kind of shit to gain votes in an election. There is a clear separation between politicians and celebrities in NZ.

There would be so much backlash in NZ if they pulled that kinda shit just to gain votes how Biden and Trump did.

Out of curiosity, do you consider Jacinda Ardern to be "far left"? In the US, Republicans would say she is "far left" for her climate change positions alone.

 

[Lucifer]

I agree with you that it does seem people were made to feel guilty if they expressed an intention of voting for Trump. I think that's why the polls are always wrong; people don't want to be honest about their candidate for fear of judgement.

I don't think this is an American thing, I think it crops up whenever there is a controversial, contentious issue with a lot at stake. We had it in the UK over Brexit, where people were leaned on to vote a certain way and the 'leavers' felt that they had to keep quiet about their vote. Scotland had it over their referendum to leave Britain.

I think it only happened this year because people felt so strongly about Trump.

EDIT: Looking at @Born To Slay's comment below, maybe I was wrong. If America does always have celebrity endorsement regardless of candidate, then yes that is different to the UK.

I can't remember if there was much celebrity endorsement in the previous 2016 US presidential election. Maybe next time that kinda shit won't happen again because everyone was strongly against Trump.

If this is how US elections usually are then there clearly needs to be some rules and regulations in terms of celebrities voicing their opinions about which candidate they are voting for and telling their fans to vote for a certain candidate.

 

[Lucifer]

That's a fascinating cultural difference, here in the US both parties go crazy trying to get celebrities to endorse and campaign for them. That's very interesting to know about NZ.

I was surprised that in the USA there is so much family involvement in terms of making speeches publicly at both the Democratic and Republican National Conventions etc but also having to help them campaign around different states and also making speeches for those events as well.

In NZ there's not much family involvement going on where they have to make a speech publicly in front of everyone. The main focus is usually on the political party and their leader and what things they will do if their party is successful.

In NZ we vote for the political party and not the leader. NZ has a mixed member proportional (MMP) system where there is a certain threshold to govern alone but the NZ election a couple months ago allowed the NZ Labour Party to govern alone without any involvement from other parties for the first time ever since MMP was implemented.

 

[Lucifer]

Out of curiosity, do you consider Jacinda Ardern to be "far left"? In the US, Republicans would say she is "far left" for her climate change positions alone.

I would say she's centre left. I think JA climate emergency declaration that she stated a week ago was clearly virtue signalling and a photo op to appease to those overseas. I don't usually agree with Greta Thunberg but she was clearly right about those declaring a climate emergency just for virtue signally.

I have a feeling the reason why JA declared a climate emergency is that she was using it as a photo op and wanted to appease people overseas. Once she is done being NZ Prime Minister she will probably work at the United Nations next.

I know a lot of people overseas are saying I wish we had JA has our President or Prime Minister but over the past 3 years of having her as our Prime Minister she has broken most of her promises that she was going to do before the 2017 election.

So don't be fooled by her. She may have done well with containing the coronavirus which I believe was really extreme and we should have done a longer Level 3 lockdown and told people to wear face masks in public places instead but for someone that promised a lot and did really little in the past 3 years is why I didn't vote for her in the 2020 election but hope she proves me wrong for the next 3 years.

 

[FGG]

That's a fascinating cultural difference, here in the US both parties go crazy trying to get celebrities to endorse and campaign for them. That's very interesting to know about NZ.

I feel like almost no one cares, though in the US, right? At the end of the day you aren't going to worry about who Meryl Streep or Robert Downey Jr. wants you to vote for. They would never know.

Celebrity obsession in America is almost too superficial even for politics. People who care about celebrities tend to care more about a Kardashian's haircut than who they voted for. In that context, endorsements seem like easy publicity (for the celebrity) but when that minute is over most people (even before the vote) don't even remember who endorsed who.

 

[FGG]

I would say she's centre left. I think JA climate emergency declaration that she stated a week ago was clearly virtue signalling and a photo op to appease to those overseas. I don't usually agree with Greta Thunberg but she was clearly right about those declaring a climate emergency just for virtue signally.

I have a feeling the reason why JA declared a climate emergency is that she was using it as a photo op and wanted to appease people overseas. Once she is done being NZ Prime Minister she will probably work at the United Nations next.

I know a lot of people overseas are saying I wish we had JA has our President or Prime Minister but over the past 3 years of having her as our Prime Minister she has broken most of her promises that she was going to do before the 2017 election.

So don't be fooled by her. She may have done well with containing the coronavirus which I believe was really extreme and we should have done a longer Level 3 lockdown and told people to wear face masks in public places instead but for someone that promised a lot and did really little in the past 3 years is why I didn't vote for her in the 2020 election but hope she proves me wrong for the next 3 years.

She seems center left to me, too. That's the thing though, what would be center left in NZ or Europe is called "far left" by the GOP in the US.

 

[Born To Slay]

I can't remember if there was much celebrity endorsement in the previous 2016 US presidential election. Maybe next time that kinda shit won't happen again because everyone was strongly against Trump.

If this is how US elections usually are then there clearly needs to be some rules and regulations in terms of celebrities voicing their opinions about which candidate they are voting for and telling their fans to vote for a certain candidate.

It really is like this every year, celebrity involvement in our elections is nothing new. Celebs have been doing concerts for candidates and parties and doing appearances at party events for a long time.

Here's a CNN article from 2012s DNC, long before Trump being President was even a thought to most Americans:

https://www.cnn.com/2012/09/06/politics/dnc-celebs/index.html

 

[Lucifer]

It really is like this every year, celebrity involvement in our elections is nothing new. Celebs have been doing concerts for candidates and parties and doing appearances at party events for a long time.

Here's a CNN article from 2012s DNC, long before Trump being President was even a thought to most Americans:

https://www.cnn.com/2012/09/06/politics/dnc-celebs/index.html

Oh wow. I'm glad this doesn't happen in NZ.

 

[Born To Slay]

I feel like almost no one cares, though in the US, right? At the end of the day you aren't going to worry about who Meryl Streep or Robert Downey Jr. wants you to vote for. They would never know.

Celebrity obsession in America is almost too superficial even for politics. People who care about celebrities tend to care more about a Kardashian's haircut than who they voted for. In that context, endorsements seem like easy publicity (for the celebrity) but when that minute is over most people (even before the vote) don't even remember who endorsed who.

Yeah I agree, for all the hype of Hollywood controlling America, I don't think celebrity endorsements actually do all that much for candidates. There are rare exceptions but it probably won't matter much who Beyoncé or Johnny Depp endorsed.

 

[just1morething]

This is what the Democrats are saying about election fraud:

 

[Born To Slay]

This is what the Democrats are saying about election fraud:

That's also what the courts are saying.

 

[Lilah]

View attachment 42171

To address the poverty issue, Republicans have generally regarded job creation as a form of social policy. That's why Republicans are known for saying "get a job." Ronald Reagan once said that "the best social program is a job." I think we can all agree that having a decent job far outweighs living on benefits. Certain jobs, which generally pay minimum wage, are not meant as careers. Having a decent job is not impossible, all one has to do is study STEM or similar field (accounting, nursing, etc.), and it only takes four years to change one's life around. Now, I understand people with tinnitus have concentration issues (as I do). I have no choice but to work extra hours to make up lost time.

On widows and orphans - We are no longer living in the days where women are uneducated and entirely dependent on husbands for food and shelter. I would not classify widows in the "helpless" category, no more than a widower. In the United States, orphanages have been replaced by foster care which is now a government - run program (which has its own inherent problems). Many foster parents foster children not because they love the child or want to build relationships, but because they receive a monthly check from the government. As a result, many foster children are troubled youth and face homelessness. Does anyone think throwing more money at foster parents will improve the situation?

Virtually in all countries, illegal immigrants are sent back to their home country. Sending back illegal immigrants, unless perhaps if they are refugees, to their home country is not an extraordinary action. There is a verse in the Bible which states "Do not mistreat or oppress a foreigner, for you were foreigners in Egypt." Let's recall that the Jews were mistreated and enslaved in Egypt. The verse is saying that the foreigner has dignity, but does it say he shall become a citizen too? The prior verse states public worship to other gods is not allowed; the term "foreigner" is typically associated with a non-Jewish person, so it is obvious that there are some restrictions in place even if foreigners are in the land. Take that for what it is worth. People incorrectly state that Jesus was an illegal immigrant, however Egypt and the region at this time were controlled by the Roman Empire so no boundaries were crossed.

I admit many Republicans vote on the abortion issue alone; I believe it is because they view it as murder and occuring in huge numbers, whereas with the other issues they are not quite to that level. I believe death penalty is allowed in the Bible as ultmate punishment but I admit it feels inconsistent with pro-life views.