2020 US Presidential Election

The chair of the fed has said he has no interest raising interest rates for the time being.
Yes, but the real question is when is the FED going to raise interest rates? Is the FED trying to trick investors to raise interest rates immediately after they get into more debt?

With the $1.9 trillion plan inflation will go up, and the FED will subsequently be forced to raise interest rates.
 
Hold up, we can definitely talk about this but we weren't done talking about Joe Biden on COVID-19 yet.

So now on January 20th, we had 190k new cases while yesterday there were about 78k. New cases are already cut in half, seems like a good sign under Joe Biden. With new cases cut in half, deaths should go down soon.

Regarding the air strike in Syria, I'll condemn Biden's hawkish garbage the same way I condemned Trump's hawkish foreign policy decisions. Biden shouldn't be doing them.
"As President, I will use military power responsibly and as a last resort. We will not go back to forever wars in the Middle East." Joe Biden on Twitter, Feb. 7, 2020

Biden has already proven himself a liar and a hypocrite, barely one month in office.

Biden and Kamasutra Harris will be excused by their supporters, even if, despite the existence of a vaccine, another two or three hundred thousand die from COVID-19 over the next few months.
 
Biden has a huge advantage having a vaccine vs Trump. Biden should be blamed even more than Trump for COVID-19 deaths since he was elected. He reversed pro-life policies also. Those deaths are on Biden also. And he reversed the Mexican City Policy, which was dumb, all at taxpayers' expense.
 
@Born To Slay:

This video is right up your alley. Kyle Kulinski talks about how contributors on Fox News were supporting Columbia professor Dr. Carl Hart's vision of legalizing heroin.



I personally think this is very stupid and ignorant. My best friend became a heroin addict and died from overdose. Another close friend nearly died and stopped. Another close friend has been in and out of prisons and rehabs for many years because of heroin.

The problem with legal heroin, even if one makes the argument that it's the unregulated stuff that kills more, is that it leads to such intense dependency that someone is going to need their fix.

It is beyond irresponsible to suggest that it's no problem to just become a casual heroin user. For every one of these people, there are hundreds that either die or become addicts.

The "libertarian" argument is that we should let people do what they want, no matter how stupid. I disagree. The human race needs protection from itself.
 
He reversed pro-life policies also. Those deaths are on Biden also.
Pro-life policies do not at all reduce abortion. Only sex education, availability of cheap contraception, family planning and making the morning after pill accessible especially after rape do. All things conservatives are against. "Abstinence only" policies lead to way more abortion than the legal status. And those abortions are on the people who oppose common sense policies instead.

It just occurred to me that you never answered these questions from earlier though:

The Roe vs Wade case was argued before RU-486 was invented (the abortion pill).

The pill can be used for both first and second trimesters.

Third trimester abortion is *already* illegal except in cases of risk to the mother's life or non viable fetus (i.e. an anencephaly baby).

So my questions to you are:

1) Should women be required to die to save the baby in those cases?

To give you an example case: a woman who gets aggressive breast cancer while late in pregnancy, which is rare but does happen, and delaying treatment a few months while in the high hormonal state of pregnancy would lead to highly probable death--some of these women already have young children at home).

2) The pill is readily available on the black market in countries where abortion is illegal. So, in your mind what should the punishment be for women caught taking these pills?
 
Pro-life policies do not at all reduce abortion. Only sex education, availability of cheap contraception, family planning and making the morning after pill accessible especially after rape do. All things conservatives are against. "Abstinence only" policies lead to way more abortion than the legal status. And those abortions are on the people who oppose common sense policies instead.

It just occurred to me that you never answered these questions from earlier though:

The Roe vs Wade case was argued before RU-486 was invented (the abortion pill).

The pill can be used for both first and second trimesters.

Third trimester abortion is *already* illegal except in cases of risk to the mother's life or non viable fetus (i.e. an anencephaly baby).

So my questions to you are:

1) Should women be required to die to save the baby in those cases?

To give you an example case: a woman who gets aggressive breast cancer while late in pregnancy, which is rare but does happen, and delaying treatment a few months while in the high hormonal state of pregnancy would lead to highly probable death--some of these women already have young children at home).

2) The pill is readily available on the black market in countries where abortion is illegal. So, in your mind what should the punishment be for women caught taking these pills?
You do know he won't even bother answering your question, right? He'll dodge it, or accuse you having TDS, or both?
 
Pro-life policies do not at all reduce abortion. Only sex education, availability of cheap contraception, family planning and making the morning after pill accessible especially after rape do. All things conservatives are against. "Abstinence only" policies lead to way more abortion than the legal status. And those abortions are on the people who oppose common sense policies instead.

It just occurred to me that you never answered these questions from earlier though:

The Roe vs Wade case was argued before RU-486 was invented (the abortion pill).

The pill can be used for both first and second trimesters.

Third trimester abortion is *already* illegal except in cases of risk to the mother's life or non viable fetus (i.e. an anencephaly baby).

So my questions to you are:

1) Should women be required to die to save the baby in those cases?

To give you an example case: a woman who gets aggressive breast cancer while late in pregnancy, which is rare but does happen, and delaying treatment a few months while in the high hormonal state of pregnancy would lead to highly probable death--some of these women already have young children at home).

2) The pill is readily available on the black market in countries where abortion is illegal. So, in your mind what should the punishment be for women caught taking these pills?
All of those subjects were covered on earlier posts. Trump explained his policies. We were headed in the right direction until Biden-Harris took over. We need to worry about the US, not the other countries. They can do whatever they want. We are not intruding on their policies.

I'm for better healthcare and know there is a lot of inequality in our country, which isn't fair. Some are rich and healthy, others are poor and not healthy, and some are somewhere in-between, not a good situation. I can see why some people get mad about this inequality. It even happens between siblings.

We are arguing again and it does absolutely no good in the big scheme of things.
 
@Born To Slay:

This video is right up your alley. Kyle Kulinski talks about how contributors on Fox News were supporting Columbia professor Dr. Carl Hart's vision of legalizing heroin.

I personally think this is very stupid and ignorant. My best friend became a heroin addict and died from overdose. Another close friend nearly died and stopped. Another close friend has been in and out of prisons and rehabs for many years because of heroin.

The problem with legal heroin, even if one makes the argument that it's the unregulated stuff that kills more, is that it leads to such intense dependency that someone is going to need their fix.

It is beyond irresponsible to suggest that it's no problem to just become a casual heroin user. For every one of these people, there are hundreds that either die or become addicts.

The "libertarian" argument is that we should let people do what they want, no matter how stupid. I disagree. The human race needs protection from itself.
The prohibition of drugs only creates criminals, deaths and other heartbreak. The threat of prison is not a deterrent, nor is disease, overdoses, etc.

People are getting robbed and killed, gangs and the criminal underworld are increasing in numbers, numerous illegal alien drug smugglers and dealers are in our country, all because of stupid laws that prevent drug users from getting their fixes. This is not only stupid, it is the worst way to handle drug use because it's dangerous, expensive, and bound to fail.
 
Biden has a huge advantage having a vaccine vs Trump. Biden should be blamed even more than Trump for COVID-19 deaths since he was elected. He reversed pro-life policies also. Those deaths are on Biden also. And he reversed the Mexican City Policy, which was dumb, all at taxpayers' expense.
How can Biden be blamed for the death rate when the death rate lags weeks behind the infected rate? The infected rate has been cut in half since Biden took office. Biden can't help it if people got sick under Trump's watch and then died while he was in office.

Biden is actually ahead of where we were expecting in term of vaccinations.
 
@Born To Slay:

This video is right up your alley. Kyle Kulinski talks about how contributors on Fox News were supporting Columbia professor Dr. Carl Hart's vision of legalizing heroin.

I personally think this is very stupid and ignorant. My best friend became a heroin addict and died from overdose. Another close friend nearly died and stopped. Another close friend has been in and out of prisons and rehabs for many years because of heroin.

The problem with legal heroin, even if one makes the argument that it's the unregulated stuff that kills more, is that it leads to such intense dependency that someone is going to need their fix.

It is beyond irresponsible to suggest that it's no problem to just become a casual heroin user. For every one of these people, there are hundreds that either die or become addicts.

The "libertarian" argument is that we should let people do what they want, no matter how stupid. I disagree. The human race needs protection from itself.
I actually think Kyle made a great argument in the video you posted. He made a lot of good points, the one I think is most important to yours is that prohibition has not put a dent in drug use.

Because let's be honest, is there really anyone out there who goes "ah fuck, I'd totally do heroin if it were legal. It's the illegality stopping me"? I don't believe so, I think the people that want to do heroin are already doing it, however, instead of them doing it in a way that's regulated and legal, they do it in a way that's unregulated and far more likely to kill them and also fuels an illegal drug trade that kills our police officers, makes poor neighborhoods more dangerous due to gang violence and fuels drug cartels in the third world. Not to mention that getting caught with it gets you a pretty hefty prison sentence.

If heroin being illegal isn't stopping people from doing heroin, then what actual benefit is there to keeping it illegal? Because keeping it illegal definitely has a high social cost. If it was legal gangs and drug cartels would be put out of business almost overnight.

All that said, I'm sorry to read about your friend, I have addiction in my family, so I know how hard it is to know people you care about suffer from addiction. I'm just not convinced prohibition is actually helping the situation.
 
Because let's be honest, is there really anyone out there who goes "ah fuck, I'd totally do heroin if it were legal. It's the illegality stopping me"? I don't believe so, I think the people that want to do heroin are already doing it, however, instead of them doing it in a way that's regulated and legal, they do it in a way that's unregulated and far more likely to kill them and also fuels an illegal drug trade that kills our police officers, makes poor neighborhoods more dangerous due to gang violence and fuels drug cartels in the third world. Not to mention that getting caught with it gets you a pretty hefty prison sentence.
I do agree that it would be nice to end the drug war and help end gang violence. I think that's the best argument for it.

But I disagree with you over the part about no one saying "I'd do it if it were legal." I think it's a bit of a strawman to word it like this. Why? Because the legalization process would alter people's perception of it. Everyone knows how tightass the FDA is so if it became legal, it would feel like trying cigarettes instead of what it really is.

The opioid epidemic was largely sparked by legal prescriptions and people feeling "safe". Well if the FDA trusts the population enough to decide for themselves to ingest something as serious as heroin, isn't that making them feel safe?

I think it's shortsighted to take people's attitudes right now (while it's illegal) and assume they would be the same if it was legal.

Maybe years ago I would have felt similarly to you (not using your age against you, it's just a coincidence), but I have watched so much stupidity that I can't unsee.
 
How can Biden be blamed for the death rate when the death rate lags weeks behind the infected rate?
Biden is dividing the country by some of his stupid executive orders. He said he was going to unite the country. Seems like he kills everything with the stroke of a pen. He should engage his brain before he engages his mouth. Then he might make more sense and have less gaffes.
 
All of those subjects were covered on earlier posts. Trump explained his policies. We were headed in the right direction until Biden-Harris took over. We need to worry about the US, not the other countries. They can do whatever they want. We are not intruding on their policies.

I'm for better healthcare and know there is a lot of inequality in our country, which isn't fair. Some are rich and healthy, others are poor and not healthy, and some are somewhere in-between, not a good situation. I can see why some people get mad about this inequality. It even happens between siblings.

We are arguing again and it does absolutely no good in the big scheme of things.
I'm definitely not trying to argue and I respect your feelings on this and think they come from a personal, genuine place for you. I am not trying to knock that aspect at all but I think more pro-life people genuinely need to hear this:

Pro-life arguments always seem to be based on a fantasy idea that prohibition, which doesn't work for literally any other good or service easily traded on the black market (see the war on marijuana) will magically work for the abortion pill.

Also:

1) They act like it's as simple as overturning Roe vs Wade. It's not. Back then, you only had to penalize the providers if you wanted to enforce it. Since the invention of RU-486, providers are now any kid, gang member or lab from China that could deal drugs. Good luck with that.

Before RU-486, I could see this being a position at least rooted in reality but it really is magical thinking at this point.

2) For something to be illegal, there has to be a penalty for breaking that law. I have *yet* to hear of one pro life person weighing in on how women getting an illegal abortion should be punished.

3) Most politicians understand it has been game over since RU-486 which is why nothing federal even gets put forward and the state stuff is just nonsense regulations like making you have to travel further, get an ultrasound and look beforehand or provide a burial (Indiana).

Absolutely none of this reduces abortions but pro-life politicians get votes and conservatives feel like they are doing something (I think).

Think about yourself and how passionately you would support someone just for being pro-life. It's a carrot on a stick and it works.

But it's really like being anti-marijuana and believing a politician would end it's use in America. Which some people used to believe in the 1980s. Anyway...

4) There are actual scientific ways to reduce unwanted pregnancy and abortion (as an aside, universal neonatal care would also reduce risky pregnancies and miscarriage saving countless babies but many conservatives oppose that too).

Like I mentioned before: better sex ed, family planning, contraceptive availability and the morning after pill. But these are never, ever discussed by the pro-life people. They aren't allowed to be on the table at all.

Why not?

I have heard abortion called the "silent holocaust." You wouldn't pass out condoms and get insurance to cover the pill to prevent a holocaust? It makes it seem to an outsider like they care more about living in a country that fits their moral ideals on paper than actually reducing abortion.

5) It's not consistent. Embryonic stem cells were lobbied against for years but not IVF clinics in which the remaining embryos are discarded after the pregnancy is achieved because it's a numbers game and some women get 6 or more viable embryos. There was no large movement whatsoever to get fertility clinics banned.

6) I had something else but I can't remember now. Probably my cue to stop my rant anyway.

Goodnight all.
 
I do agree that it would be nice to end the drug war and help end gang violence. I think that's the best argument for it.

But I disagree with you over the part about no one saying "I'd do it if it were legal." I think it's a bit of a strawman to word it like this. Why? Because the legalization process would alter people's perception of it. Everyone knows how tightass the FDA is so if it became legal, it would feel like trying cigarettes instead of what it really is.

The opioid epidemic was largely sparked by legal prescriptions and people feeling "safe". Well if the FDA trusts the population enough to decide for themselves to ingest something as serious as heroin, isn't that making them feel safe?

I think it's shortsighted to take people's attitudes right now (while it's illegal) and assume they would be the same if it was legal.

Maybe years ago I would have felt similarly to you (not using your age against you, it's just a coincidence), but I have watched so much stupidity that I can't unsee.
Well that's where the education system comes in and teaches people how unhealthy heroin use and other drug use is. You could even have ads tell people how bad it is. Perhaps even make them sign a waiver before every purpose saying they fully understand what they're doing. People only felt safe because their doctor was giving it to them, I think that's very different from buying it recreationally with a huge warning label saying it could be lethal.

I don't think it's the fact it's illegal that gives it the taboo status it has now though, look at cannabis for example. It's in the same category as heroin according to the feds but people don't take it nearly as seriously. I think with that mind, the dangerous of heroin would speak for themselves even though it's legal. Just as the relative harmlessness of cannabis speaks for itself, despite it being a schedule one drug alongside heroin.

I do get where ur coming from tho, it's worth doing some studies on
 
Biden is dividing the country by some of his stupid executive orders. He said he was going to unite the country. Seems like he kills everything with the stroke of a pen. He should engage his brain before he engages his mouth. Then he might make more sense and have less gaffes.
Point me to one executive order he signed that he didn't say he would sign on the campaign trail. And yeah, he's killing a lot with the stroke of a pen. So did Trump. Was he dividing America also by using his powers rightfully?
 
You do know he won't even bother answering your question, right? He'll dodge it, or accuse you having TDS, or both?
Do you happen to have TDS? I suppose you knew I was going to ask you that. You bring up the same questions that I have answered on previous posts. Please no long posts as I can't concentrate with tinnitus. Maybe we should be talking about wild turkeys instead or some other pleasant subject?
 
Well that's where the education system comes in and teaches people how unhealthy heroin use and other drug use is. You could even have ads tell people how bad it is. Perhaps even make them sign a waiver before every purpose saying they fully understand what they're doing. People only felt safe because their doctor was giving it to them, I think that's very different from buying it recreationally with a huge warning label saying it could be lethal.

I don't think it's the fact it's illegal that gives it the taboo status it has now though, look at cannabis for example. It's in the same category as heroin according to the feds but people don't take it nearly as seriously. I think with that mind, the dangerous of heroin would speak for themselves even though it's legal. Just as the relative harmlessness of cannabis speaks for itself, despite it being a schedule one drug alongside heroin.

I do get where ur coming from tho, it's worth doing some studies on
But what's the benefit other than it checks some neat libertarian box? If we say one benefit is pain relief, then certainly someone shouldn't be figuring this out on their own for something as dangerous and addictive as heroin. Marijuana is totally different because it's not addictive and pretty much impossible to OD on. The guy in the video I posted, Dr. Carl Hart uses it to relax and cope. There's such a huge genetic variation in capacity to handle it. There is for all drugs, but if someone is sensitive to marijuana, they will just get really high. Then there's all of the safety issues like falling asleep and choking on one's own vomit, etc.

I really don't see it. You could make the claim that we give it tons of warnings and waivers. It doesn't matter. There is something about knowing it is legal that makes people want to see it differently. Human beings always push boundaries of safety measures, particularly during rebellious ages.

I think legal heroin falls into the bucket of libertarian utopia that doesn't exist.
 
Well that's where the education system comes in and teaches people how unhealthy heroin use and other drug use is. You could even have ads tell people how bad it is. Perhaps even make them sign a waiver before every purpose saying they fully understand what they're doing. People only felt safe because their doctor was giving it to them, I think that's very different from buying it recreationally with a huge warning label saying it could be lethal.

I don't think it's the fact it's illegal that gives it the taboo status it has now though, look at cannabis for example. It's in the same category as heroin according to the feds but people don't take it nearly as seriously. I think with that mind, the dangerous of heroin would speak for themselves even though it's legal. Just as the relative harmlessness of cannabis speaks for itself, despite it being a schedule one drug alongside heroin.

I do get where ur coming from tho, it's worth doing some studies on
To connect this issue to the other issue being discussed above (abortion), I think they are quite different. However, at least abortion has some really obvious benefits to the mother. Also, the black markets are different.

Even if heroin was legal, it would still be illegal to sell it without a license. There would still be a competitive black market just for price reasons. The only way the black market would go away is if the publicly available version was cheap. This wouldn't be the case since they would have to fund an insane number of health studies, purity tests (this matters SO much with heroin), insurance, licensing renewals, employees to prove the licensing is warranted, lawyers, etc.

For abortion, it would be a one-time procedure (or a pill). It's not an addictive habit. People would want to do it right and be willing to go through the proper channels, if available.

With heroin, people become addicted almost instantly. Then it's a situation of years and years of daily use. Eventually, your every day Joe who becomes an addict would have to look elsewhere for competition. The seller in the black market would win this competition because they wouldn't hesitate to illegally avoid all of the regulatory expenses just to make a profit (not to mention actually making the product in a much cheaper way by cutting corners and overhead).

None of it works. A better solution is to figure out why people resort to heroin in the first place. Maybe mental health screenings or improving quality of life conditions by lifting people out of poverty.
 
To connect this issue to the other issue being discussed above (abortion), I think they are quite different. However, at least abortion has some really obvious benefits to the mother. Also, the black markets are different.

Even if heroin was legal, it would still be illegal to sell it without a license. There would still be a competitive black market just for price reasons. The only way the black market would go away is if the publicly available version was cheap. This wouldn't be the case since they would have to fund an insane number of health studies, purity tests (this matters SO much with heroin), insurance, licensing renewals, employees to prove the licensing is warranted, lawyers, etc.

For abortion, it would be a one-time procedure (or a pill). It's not an addictive habit. People would want to do it right and be willing to go through the proper channels, if available.

With heroin, people become addicted almost instantly. Then it's a situation of years and years of daily use. Eventually, your every day Joe who becomes an addict would have to look elsewhere for competition. The seller in the black market would win this competition because they wouldn't hesitate to illegally avoid all of the regulatory expenses just to make a profit (not to mention actually making the product in a much cheaper way by cutting corners and overhead).

None of it works. A better solution is to figure out why people resort to heroin in the first place. Maybe mental health screenings or improving quality of life conditions by lifting people out of poverty.
Don't you think that heroin being illegal makes it harder to be treated as medical issue?

Making opioids harder to get is ironically one of the causes of the heroin epidemic in the US:

Prescription opioid use is a risk factor for heroin use

A large portion of heroin users couldn't get opioids from their doctor anymore (because of newer legal restrictions), so moved to heroin (which is very easy to get obviously).

There is also the unintended consequence of some people in serious pain that can't even get good relief. This affects vets, too. Vets have to hospitalize some of their patients to give them adequate acute pain control because you can't dispense enough to send home. This is a large, added expense some people can't afford, which means they make do with less comfort for their pet.

Also, any black market drug gives gangs and cartels another avenue to flourish.
 
To connect this issue to the other issue being discussed above (abortion), I think they are quite different. However, at least abortion has some really obvious benefits to the mother. Also, the black markets are different.

Even if heroin was legal, it would still be illegal to sell it without a license. There would still be a competitive black market just for price reasons. The only way the black market would go away is if the publicly available version was cheap. This wouldn't be the case since they would have to fund an insane number of health studies, purity tests (this matters SO much with heroin), insurance, licensing renewals, employees to prove the licensing is warranted, lawyers, etc.

For abortion, it would be a one-time procedure (or a pill). It's not an addictive habit. People would want to do it right and be willing to go through the proper channels, if available.

With heroin, people become addicted almost instantly. Then it's a situation of years and years of daily use. Eventually, your every day Joe who becomes an addict would have to look elsewhere for competition. The seller in the black market would win this competition because they wouldn't hesitate to illegally avoid all of the regulatory expenses just to make a profit (not to mention actually making the product in a much cheaper way by cutting corners and overhead).

None of it works. A better solution is to figure out why people resort to heroin in the first place. Maybe mental health screenings or improving quality of life conditions by lifting people out of poverty.
Definitely good points to consider.

On the price point, we actually already have a good comparison. Legal opioids now are cheaper then street opioids and it's not even close. A 30mg Morphine tablet legally purchased from a pharmacy costs 96 cents, while on the black market it costs anywhere from $20-$40. A Vicodin tablet costs $1.26 in a pharmacy while the same tablet will cost you $5 on the street. I can give citations if you'd like, I just didn't want to clutter the post with links, if there's anything you want proof on please feel free to say so. If the black market can't keep the prices comparable to the legal sellers now, I don't see how they'll be able to do so against them on legal recreational drugs. Especially since the companies likely to sell them such as Phillip Morris or Bayer already have the built infrastructure to sell illegal drugs and already have the best lawyers in the world.
But what's the benefit other than it checks some neat libertarian box? If we say one benefit is pain relief, then certainly someone shouldn't be figuring this out on their own for something as dangerous and addictive as heroin. Marijuana is totally different because it's not addictive and pretty much impossible to OD on. The guy in the video I posted, Dr. Carl Hart uses it to relax and cope. There's such a huge genetic variation in capacity to handle it. There is for all drugs, but if someone is sensitive to marijuana, they will just get really high. Then there's all of the safety issues like falling asleep and choking on one's own vomit, etc.

I really don't see it. You could make the claim that we give it tons of warnings and waivers. It doesn't matter. There is something about knowing it is legal that makes people want to see it differently. Human beings always push boundaries of safety measures, particularly during rebellious ages.

I think legal heroin falls into the bucket of libertarian utopia that doesn't exist.
This has nothing to do with an ideological commitment to social libertarianism in my view.

To your question on what the benefits would be, I'd categorize them as:
  1. Fewer overdose deaths due better regulated drugs, meaning that even if the drug use were to go up marginally, more people would be saved.
  2. Lower crime in America's cities due to the severe drop in the drug trade.
  3. Less organized crime in in Latin America that is making life so bad for them they flee their own country.
  4. Better outcomes for drug addicts, no longer criminals but simply people are sick and need treatment. They will no longer have criminal records of any kind following them.
  5. Least important but still worth mentioning, more revenue for government, which is drastically needed in many of the communities most impacted by the prohibition on drugs. If almost all (say 95%) the drug sales that take place in America's low income cities were taxed, that'd be a dramatic increase in funding available for education in those places, places where education is chronically underfunded. If people are going to use drugs, the public being a benefactor is far better than El Chapo being a benefactor in my opinion.
As to the psychological effect of legality, I really think it's far smaller than you are implying. The fact you can explain to me the vast difference between marijuana and heroin is proof of this. They're both in the same category of drugs and yet you and most of the public see them extremely differently.

Even legal opioids have a bad rep despite being legal drugs given by doctors because the public can see with their own eyes the problems they have. If we made all of them legal, that stigma wouldn't just go away. I believe it to be the same with heroin.

I do agree with you thought that the best way to stop the drug abuse is to make people live in a society where it doesn't feel necessary to abuse drugs. I also want you to know I'm having fun with this debate and you are a fun person to debate with.
 
I'm definitely not trying to argue and I respect your feelings on this and think they come from a personal, genuine place for you. I am not trying to knock that aspect at all but I think more pro-life people genuinely need to hear this:

Pro-life arguments always seem to be based on a fantasy idea that prohibition, which doesn't work for literally any other good or service easily traded on the black market (see the war on marijuana) will magically work for the abortion pill.

Also:

1) They act like it's as simple as overturning Roe vs Wade. It's not. Back then, you only had to penalize the providers if you wanted to enforce it. Since the invention of RU-486, providers are now any kid, gang member or lab from China that could deal drugs. Good luck with that.

Before RU-486, I could see this being a position at least rooted in reality but it really is magical thinking at this point.

2) For something to be illegal, there has to be a penalty for breaking that law. I have *yet* to hear of one pro life person weighing in on how women getting an illegal abortion should be punished.

3) Most politicians understand it has been game over since RU-486 which is why nothing federal even gets put forward and the state stuff is just nonsense regulations like making you have to travel further, get an ultrasound and look beforehand or provide a burial (Indiana).

Absolutely none of this reduces abortions but pro-life politicians get votes and conservatives feel like they are doing something (I think).

Think about yourself and how passionately you would support someone just for being pro-life. It's a carrot on a stick and it works.

But it's really like being anti-marijuana and believing a politician would end it's use in America. Which some people used to believe in the 1980s. Anyway...

4) There are actual scientific ways to reduce unwanted pregnancy and abortion (as an aside, universal neonatal care would also reduce risky pregnancies and miscarriage saving countless babies but many conservatives oppose that too).

Like I mentioned before: better sex ed, family planning, contraceptive availability and the morning after pill. But these are never, ever discussed by the pro-life people. They aren't allowed to be on the table at all.

Why not?

I have heard abortion called the "silent holocaust." You wouldn't pass out condoms and get insurance to cover the pill to prevent a holocaust? It makes it seem to an outsider like they care more about living in a country that fits their moral ideals on paper than actually reducing abortion.

5) It's not consistent. Embryonic stem cells were lobbied against for years but not IVF clinics in which the remaining embryos are discarded after the pregnancy is achieved because it's a numbers game and some women get 6 or more viable embryos. There was no large movement whatsoever to get fertility clinics banned.

6) I had something else but I can't remember now. Probably my cue to stop my rant anyway.

Goodnight all.
This place could better answer your questions:

https://www.focusonthefamily.com/pro-life/
 
Don't you think that heroin being illegal makes it harder to be treated as medical issue?
This is complicated with much variation. If the person became hooked, can't stop, and is stuck with this illegal habit, then yes. But if we're talking about getting there in the first place, then no. Because most people start taking heroine to self medicate (ignore people with pain disorders for now) for mental health problems. All of my friends who became addicts had mental health problems. To me, the illegality should at least help people to see that treatment for depression through proper channels is more appropriate. I think it's easy to say, well, it didn't stop my friends so what's the point? I think we have a long way to go in terms of getting people to be honest about their mental health problems.

Now if we're talking about people with pain disorders that are neglected by their doctors and have to take matters into their own hands, I at least see this side, but I still think the pros don't outweigh the cons. For something like marijuana or CBD, I think it is highly appropriate to see it in this way. I just don't love the idea of people without medical backgrounds self medicating with legal heroin.
Prescription opioid use is a risk factor for heroin use

A large portion of heroin users couldn't get opioids from their doctor anymore (because of newer legal restrictions), so moved to heroin (which is very easy to get obviously).
Yeah, I'm aware of this. I would rather solve this problem by improving medical programs so that it's not obvious that a patient is just going to resort to heroin after their opioid prescription runs out. Maybe better programs for weaning off or having greater emphasis placed on medical marijuana. I realize this isn't perfect and some conditions are only touched by opioids. It's difficult, especially if the person has many years left with chronic pain. Even in these special scenarios, I think it makes more sense to expand patient rights via proper medical channels. In other words, give the patient the right to responsibly continue treatment with the doctor. This still is flawed, but better than someone buying heroin for themselves.
Vets have to hospitalize some of their patients to give them adequate acute pain control because you can't dispense enough to send home. This is a large, added expense some people can't afford, which means they make do with less comfort for their pet.
I never thought of something like that. I guess I don't understand the issue well enough to weigh in.
Also, any black market drug gives gangs and cartels another avenue to flourish.
In principle, this is one of the best arguments for legalization. As I said above though, with all of the regulations, legal dispensaries are going to have to charge a lot. There is still going to be a black market where sellers are willing to illegally cut corners, strip overhead, and feed people's addiction.
 
Trump supporters who breached the Capitol: 'It was not Antifa'

Nearly a dozen Trump supporters charged in connection with the US Capitol insurrection have said that Antifa and other left-wing groups weren't involved in the attack, debunking a false-flag conspiracy theory that is gaining popularity in the pro-Trump orbit.

The baseless claim that left-wing infiltrators were responsible for the violent attack has been promoted by former President Donald Trump's impeachment lawyers, several GOP lawmakers and at least one speaker at the Conservative Political Action Conference Friday morning...

..."There's a lot of memes and posts flying around saying that the people who were fighting last night were all Antifa provocateurs etc.," defendant Jose Padilla allegedly posted to Facebook one day after the January 6 attack. "I just want to say that as a first hand observer of every point of last night, that it was not Antifa. They were Patriots who were trying to Restore the Republic."

Another alleged Capitol rioter, Jonathan Mellis, posted, "Don't you dare try to tell me that people are blaming this on antifa and BLM. We proudly take responsibility for storming the Castle." He also used a vulgar term to imply that the left-wing groups were too cowardly to pull off an attack.​
 
Definitely good points to consider.

On the price point, we actually already have a good comparison. Legal opioids now are cheaper then street opioids and it's not even close. A 30mg Morphine tablet legally purchased from a pharmacy costs 96 cents, while on the black market it costs anywhere from $20-$40. A Vicodin tablet costs $1.26 in a pharmacy while the same tablet will cost you $5 on the street. I can give citations if you'd like, I just didn't want to clutter the post with links, if there's anything you want proof on please feel free to say so. If the black market can't keep the prices comparable to the legal sellers now, I don't see how they'll be able to do so against them on legal recreational drugs. Especially since the companies likely to sell them such as Phillip Morris or Bayer already have the built infrastructure to sell illegal drugs and already have the best lawyers in the world.

This has nothing to do with an ideological commitment to social libertarianism in my view.

To your question on what the benefits would be, I'd categorize them as:
  1. Fewer overdose deaths due better regulated drugs, meaning that even if the drug use were to go up marginally, more people would be saved.
  2. Lower crime in America's cities due to the severe drop in the drug trade.
  3. Less organized crime in in Latin America that is making life so bad for them they flee their own country.
  4. Better outcomes for drug addicts, no longer criminals but simply people are sick and need treatment. They will no longer have criminal records of any kind following them.
  5. Least important but still worth mentioning, more revenue for government, which is drastically needed in many of the communities most impacted by the prohibition on drugs. If almost all (say 95%) the drug sales that take place in America's low income cities were taxed, that'd be a dramatic increase in funding available for education in those places, places where education is chronically underfunded. If people are going to use drugs, the public being a benefactor is far better than El Chapo being a benefactor in my opinion.
As to the psychological effect of legality, I really think it's far smaller than you are implying. The fact you can explain to me the vast difference between marijuana and heroin is proof of this. They're both in the same category of drugs and yet you and most of the public see them extremely differently.

Even legal opioids have a bad rep despite being legal drugs given by doctors because the public can see with their own eyes the problems they have. If we made all of them legal, that stigma wouldn't just go away. I believe it to be the same with heroin.

I do agree with you thought that the best way to stop the drug abuse is to make people live in a society where it doesn't feel necessary to abuse drugs. I also want you to know I'm having fun with this debate and you are a fun person to debate with.
All of your points are well-reasoned. Really, I agree with you on almost everything, except one big point. I think you are right that the medical cost is rather clean, well set up, and efficient. I just think if it becomes legal, there's too many extra expenses to eliminate a need for a black market on competition alone. The only way this wouldn't be the case is if all of the fine attention to detail and safety was cut, but that then undermines your point. Also, your point about tax revenue sort of undermines your point about a competitive low cost.

I'll be honest, I don't know nearly enough about the chemistry or production to really crunch all of the numbers to see how correct I am. If I'm wrong and that a black market would never compete on any level, then I may change my position. I don't think I'm totally wrong about this though. Even something as harmless as marijuana is subject to high taxes and regulations. Marijuana is one of the least dangerous substances that exists. Heroin is a whole different beast. I believe black markets would still exist and thrive.
 
Trump supporters who breached the Capitol: 'It was not Antifa'

Nearly a dozen Trump supporters charged in connection with the US Capitol insurrection have said that Antifa and other left-wing groups weren't involved in the attack, debunking a false-flag conspiracy theory that is gaining popularity in the pro-Trump orbit.

The baseless claim that left-wing infiltrators were responsible for the violent attack has been promoted by former President Donald Trump's impeachment lawyers, several GOP lawmakers and at least one speaker at the Conservative Political Action Conference Friday morning...

..."There's a lot of memes and posts flying around saying that the people who were fighting last night were all Antifa provocateurs etc.," defendant Jose Padilla allegedly posted to Facebook one day after the January 6 attack. "I just want to say that as a first hand observer of every point of last night, that it was not Antifa. They were Patriots who were trying to Restore the Republic."

Another alleged Capitol rioter, Jonathan Mellis, posted, "Don't you dare try to tell me that people are blaming this on antifa and BLM. We proudly take responsibility for storming the Castle." He also used a vulgar term to imply that the left-wing groups were too cowardly to pull off an attack.​
We can debunk all your debunker claims just like the election fraud.
 
None of it works. A better solution is to figure out why people resort to heroin in the first place. Maybe mental health screenings or improving quality of life conditions by lifting people out of poverty.
I agree with this. I found this from a video, but some soldiers in Vietnam were taking heroin and a lot of them came back home without continuing heroin use. The reason being? It's because they were finally coming back home to their friends, family, wife etc and were only doing heroin in Vietnam to cope during the lonely times (depressed lonely people are the perfect candidates for drug addiction). The ones who stayed addicted happened to be the ones who had little social connections and bad economic conditions.

I'm for decriminalizing drug possession, however I'm not for heroin getting sold at gas stations. I do not want to be bombarded with advertisements telling me to buy heroin as I don't want my will to be tested and exploited soon there's a profit incentive to get me addicted. Depression and anxiety rates are going up, and mixing drug addiction to that is a recipe for disaster if we are going by what I said at the beginning of this post. Odd thing is, I actually gave drug use some thought when I first got my tinnitus because I was basically giving up on life at that point, but I didn't act on my impulse anyways.

Britain forcing China to legalize Opium got almost half of the population addicted. If I recall correctly, Opium is like a weaker version of heroin that's way harder to overdose, yet still had devastating effects on that society when Opium was widely available in China.
 
Trump supporters who breached the Capitol: 'It was not Antifa'

Nearly a dozen Trump supporters charged in connection with the US Capitol insurrection have said that Antifa and other left-wing groups weren't involved in the attack, debunking a false-flag conspiracy theory that is gaining popularity in the pro-Trump orbit.

The baseless claim that left-wing infiltrators were responsible for the violent attack has been promoted by former President Donald Trump's impeachment lawyers, several GOP lawmakers and at least one speaker at the Conservative Political Action Conference Friday morning...

..."There's a lot of memes and posts flying around saying that the people who were fighting last night were all Antifa provocateurs etc.," defendant Jose Padilla allegedly posted to Facebook one day after the January 6 attack. "I just want to say that as a first hand observer of every point of last night, that it was not Antifa. They were Patriots who were trying to Restore the Republic."

Another alleged Capitol rioter, Jonathan Mellis, posted, "Don't you dare try to tell me that people are blaming this on antifa and BLM. We proudly take responsibility for storming the Castle." He also used a vulgar term to imply that the left-wing groups were too cowardly to pull off an attack.​
You ever see the movie Dumb and Dumber? At the end, a bus of cute girls going on a bikini tour pulls up to Harry (Jeff Daniels) and Lloyd (Jim Carrey) and says they are looking for two guys to oil them up. Harry says they are in luck because there a town a few miles "that way."

After they drive off, Lloyd runs after the bus and stops it. He says that his friend is an idiot. But instead of saying he's an idiot because they would love to oil the girls, he says that the town is in the other direction.

That's what your quotes from these proud seditionists reminds me of. They have enough political capital within their base to pin it on ANTIFA and rally support. But instead, they go even dumber and insist that any true Trump supporter would do that.
 
I'm for decriminalizing drug possession, however I'm not for heroin getting sold at gas stations. I do not want to be bombarded with advertisements telling me to buy heroin as I don't want my will to be tested and exploited soon there's a profit incentive to get me addicted. Depression and anxiety rates are going up, and mixing drug addiction to that is a recipe for disaster if we are going by what I said at the beginning of this post. Odd thing is, I actually gave drug use some thought when I first got my tinnitus because I was basically giving up on life at that point, but I didn't act on my impulse anyways.
This is a really good point and one that I was unable to articulate. Everyone hates big tobacco and agrees that there's incentive for people to get hooked for profit. But at least with cigarettes, people can go through rough phases where they are a little more reckless and come out from it. For example, I used to regularly smoke during a time of anxiety. I sort of regret it, but it's nice knowing that one can often shake this habit.

Heroin is different. Yes, someone can quit, but it's not like cigarettes. It took me two attempts to quit cigarettes. Granted, cravings still came on sometimes over several years, but they mostly passed. On the other hand, heroin addicts often need rehabs for the rest of their lives.
 

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