2020 US Presidential Election

[Zugzug]

I agree.

What Obama said about not serving in the military is interesting per wanting to continue with his academics. He did send the military off to continue war, but this is a separate discussion. Maybe ethics is not.

Biden was a lifeguard, ran track and was going to play football, but met his future wife and decided not to.

I do think that the press is giving Biden a free pass to all his dishonest involvements and doings. Then again, I don't care.

Really, my biggest issue is just the hypocrisy over the mindset of "get on your knees and worship the troops at all costs." It's true that leftists simultaneously troll Trump for dodging Vietnam, but also advocate for less war. I think their goal (and I wouldn't totally know because I'm not a leftist) is to just point out the hypocrisy. Also, I think most people believe that Trump didn't dodge the draft because of some conscientious, moral anti-war sentiment. The dude just thought of himself. This is fine; obviously, Obama did the same thing by pursuing academics. But Obama doesn't spend every waking moment telling people that they are anti-troops either.

Perhaps trolling isn't the best way to deliver this message? The reason why I brought up Kaepernick before is because it's pretty frustrating when they smear a guy (agree or disagree with him) as anti-troops. If that's the stance you are going to take when it comes to addressing people you disagree with, you can't really have leaders that dodge drafts, make fun of gold star families and prisoners of war, etc.

All I want is consistency and to stop using the military for grandeur, rather than honoring their true sacrifice. We treat our vets like garbage, and it saddens me so much.

 

[Greg Sacramento]

Do you think having had military service is important for the post of president?

Kerry's service became a liability and Gore played down his service - Vietnam.

All I want is consistency and to stop using the military for grandeur, rather than honoring their true sacrifice. We treat our vets like garbage, and it saddens me so much.

Totally agree.

I don't support Trump, but I also don't support Biden or any other President during my lifetime. We are slaves and abused by dishonest power systems of greed and none of them care about us - including our disabilities.

 

[Luman]

This is what I'm referring to about mind games to defend the Trump vote. This is not an honest discussion, just a constant moving of goal posts. If Obama used bone spurs as an excuse to not serve, we would never hear the end of it. In fact, he would probably not only be excoriated and deemed unpatriotic, he would probably be accused of fighting for the other side as a traitor. Then, the person pushing that conspiracy would become the king of the Republican party. But when Trump does it, it's "clever." The goal is always start from the conclusion that Trump is good and work backwards.

Why is being rejected from the draft for bone spurs, any worse than other medical problems? Men who are too tall or too short, have flat feet, etc., bad eyesight, missing fingers, etc., are not taken. Why is Trump being singled out for his medical condition, which was diagnosed to the satisfaction of the U.S. Army draft board? The draft was over before Obama was even old enough to have served, so that is not a factor, but if he'd had bone spurs, he would have been exempt, as well. I doubt that people would have done to him, what they're doing to Trump, with these fictitious, slanderous, opinions, but it's possible.

Your post's reference to my opinion regarding Trump's draft status is not accurate. "When Trump does it, it's 'clever'", implies that I feel that his draft deferment was fraudulently obtained. I said that if he had found a way to successfully fake his medical condition, then I would consider him clever, NOT that I believe that he did. If it was that easy to do, the majority of those who have been drafted, during the Vietnam conflict, and some others, would have faked a medical condition, and I wouldn't blame them.

 

[Luman]

The claim that Trump dodged the draft is now accepted as fact, by many. Many won't even uses the term "allegedly", when they refer to it. They would make good jurors, in a dictatorship or kangaroo court. Naturally, most of them support Joe Biden and Kamala "Porker of the Year 2018" Harris. If Trump were as bad as they claim, would they have to make things up, or use slander, in order to denigrate his character?

 

[GlennS]

Your post's reference to my opinion regarding Trump's draft status is not accurate. "When Trump does it, it's 'clever'", implies that I feel that his draft deferment was fraudulently obtained. I said that if he had found a way to successfully fake his medical condition, then I would consider him clever, NOT that I believe that he did. If it was that easy to do, the majority of those who have been drafted, during the Vietnam conflict, and some others, would have faked a medical condition, and I wouldn't blame them.

Trump is the one who didn't accept Obama's citizenship and screamed "release the birth certificate!" At the very least we could scream "release the bone-spur medical records"! Trump already had someone else fraudulently take a test for him and paying off women for affairs. I'd say there's reasonable cause for suspicion he would cheat his way out of bodily harm in Vietnam.

 

[Born To Slay]

Why is being rejected from the draft for bone spurs, any worse than other medical problems? Men who are too tall or too short, have flat feet, etc., bad eyesight, missing fingers, etc., are not taken. Why is Trump being singled out for his medical condition, which was diagnosed to the satisfaction of the U.S. Army draft board? The draft was over before Obama was even old enough to have served, so that is not a factor, but if he'd had bone spurs, he would have been exempt, as well. I doubt that people would have done to him, what they're doing to Trump, with these fictitious, slanderous, opinions, but it's possible.

Your post's reference to my opinion regarding Trump's draft status is not accurate. "When Trump does it, it's 'clever'", implies that I feel that his draft deferment was fraudulently obtained. I said that if he had found a way to successfully fake his medical condition, then I would consider him clever, NOT that I believe that he did. If it was that easy to do, the majority of those who have been drafted, during the Vietnam conflict, and some others, would have faked a medical condition, and I wouldn't blame them.

You doubt Obama would have received similar treatment? Obama faced a lot of foolish criticisms during his presidency. Most infamously, right wing conspiracy theorists, including Trump, questioned if he was a legitimate president for years by saying he wasn't born in this country. The Republicans were every bit as relentless against Obama as the Dems are against Trump.

 

[Zugzug]

The draft was over before Obama was even old enough to have served, so that is not a factor, but if he'd had bone spurs, he would have been exempt, as well. I doubt that people would have done to him, what they're doing to Trump, with these fictitious, slanderous, opinions, but it's possible.

It's more than possible. It's a 100% probability. Have you ever seen Fox News? Republicans in congress? Rush Limbaugh? Hell, Trump himself would be all over Obama if he dodged a draft for bone spurs. And his base would eat it up.

Your post's reference to my opinion regarding Trump's draft status is not accurate. "When Trump does it, it's 'clever'", implies that I feel that his draft deferment was fraudulently obtained. I said that if he had found a way to successfully fake his medical condition, then I would consider him clever, NOT that I believe that he did. If it was that easy to do, the majority of those who have been drafted, during the Vietnam conflict, and some others, would have faked a medical condition, and I wouldn't blame them.

We are operating under completely different assumptions about Trump. Based on everything that's come out about him, I have strong reason to believe that almost everything he touches is fraudulent or riddled with lies and deceit. It's not like Trump has this clean, honest past and I am just hating on the guy. He has lied so much that it's almost meaningless at this point.

Our back and forth on Trump is obviously going no where and adding nothing to the discussion. I see a far uglier person behind closed doors (and otherwise).

 

[Luman]

It's more than possible. It's a 100% probability. Have you ever seen Fox News? Republicans in congress? Rush Limbaugh? Hell, Trump himself would be all over Obama if he dodged a draft for bone spurs. And his base would eat it up.

We are operating under completely different assumptions about Trump. Based on everything that's come out about him, I have strong reason to believe that almost everything he touches is fraudulent or riddled with lies and deceit. It's not like Trump has this clean, honest past and I am just hating on the guy. He has lied so much that it's almost meaningless at this point.

Our back and forth on Trump is obviously going no where and adding nothing to the discussion. I see a far uglier person behind closed doors (and otherwise).

You are demonizing somebody, it's clear. Trump had the U.S. economy running like clockwork. No war. Very low unemployment. Little to no terrorism. Many of his accomplishments were outlined in the WSJ guest article the other day, which I posted. The bone spurs issue is just the tip of the iceberg, as far as the inaccurate impression that people have of him, but it is significant. The burden of proof is on the believer(s), and those who accused him, have failed to produce a smidgen of evidence to suggest that he somehow faked his condition, to obtain release from the draft. In my opinion, this is slander, and worse than a lie.

 

[all to gain]

I wouldn't blame most people for trying to get out of conscription (the draft) as it is a very direct form of involuntary servitude (slavery) that could get one killed all in the name of the ideals and goals of politicians, many of whom would not put their own life on the line willingly.

I'm sure some people (depending on background, beliefs, country of birth etc) see it as a duty to their country and people.

How many on here from the US, UK and other countries without conscription would try to dodge it if it was brought back now? And would it depend on whether your country was being directly attacked militarily?

 

[Born To Slay]

You are demonizing somebody, it's clear. Trump had the U.S. economy running like clockwork. No war. Very low unemployment. Little to no terrorism. Many of his accomplishments were outlined in the WSJ guest article the other day, which I posted. The bone spurs issue is just the tip of the iceberg, as far as the inaccurate impression that people have of him, but it is significant. The burden of proof is on the believer(s), and those who accused him, have failed to produce a smidgen of evidence to suggest that he somehow faked his condition, to obtain release from the draft. In my opinion, this is slander, and worse than a lie.

No war? Donald Trump has continued America's bloody foreign policy. We're still in Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria and don't forget Trumps affinity for American support of Saudi Arabia in Yemen's Civil War. Congress actually voted to remove American support in part because of the heinous acts against the innocent people there and Trump vetoed that. Donald Trump has escalated America's drone strikes exponentially and civilian deaths are rising as a result. Donald Trump is not the dove he wants to pretend to be. He's kept us at war even when congress tried to pull us out.

 

[Zugzug]

Trump had the U.S. economy running like clockwork. No war. Very low unemployment.

The economy is a game of chicken. In order to worship the current economy, one has to admit that Obama's strategy of ballooning the deficit, in order to obtain growth, followed by lowering the deficit, actually worked. I remember Trump supporters praising the economy after Trump won and he didn't even enact a single policy yet -- he just continued Obama's trends for the most part. People with Obama Derangement Syndrome were quick to point out that the economic gains didn't count, even though Obama inherited a recession (and all of the wars) -- hence, the Tea Party.

Here are some numbers on this economy made of a house of cards (https://www.forbes.com/sites/chuckj...deficits-are-racing-past-obamas/#7d898ff48199)

• During Obama's first year in office, he raised the deficit from $459 billion to $1.4 trillion (during the recession).
• By 2016, it was $585 billion, up from $442 billion in 2015.
• In 2017, Trump grew the deficit to $666 billion. So if we're being fair, the percentage change was 32.3% from 2015-16 under Obama and 13.8% under Trump. Since then, Trump has sky rocketed the deficit.

Here's a graphic, obviously with projections beyond Trump:

Either one has to praise ballooning the deficit as a tactic for growth, or condemn the Trump economy.

Now, of course, if Obama supporters want to take credit for the economy, they have to also admit that the economy was great (under Trump) before COVID. Either way, I don't think this is a topic that a Trump voter has a particularly great argument for why Obama ran the economy so poorly. And assuming Joe Biden is a like a third Obama term, there's not really a great argument against Joe's economy. After all, Joe has said "nothing will fundamentally change," which should be the dream to the Trump supporter right now.

 

[Greg Sacramento]

We are slaves and abused by dishonest power systems of greed and none of them care about us - including our disabilities.

For sure Trump is a ____, but Biden is also a no brain child and has cheated too. What is important is our lives, medical treatment and paying our bills.

Biden wants a 4 trillion tax increase over ten years. Because of this, State and local taxes will also raise. Costs for everything will rise and high tech is going to love that. Way too much to discuss about how this will hurt ordinary citizens ---- US - You and me.

Most important, Biden plans to create a public option for health insurance that will kill off private health insurance. This will create a clinic environment where patients will be lined to walls in waiting room for a 10 minute appointment to be seen by an ENT or eye doctor.

 

[Zugzug]

Most important, Biden plans to create a public option for health insurance that will kill off private health insurance. This will create a clinic environment where patients will be lined to walls in waiting room for a 10 minute appointment to be seen by an ENT or eye doctor.

The quality of healthcare going down is something that scares me tremendously, which is why I have trepidation over M4A.

 

[Daniel Lion]

It has so much interest as the result has a major influence on world events, not just on internal US, and people are very divided on the issue and like to vent themselves and their, what they consider, more right views.

Personally I'm just in this thread for the giggles I don't really care one way or the other. As Private James Frazer would say, "We're all doomed" anyway. The US has dug itself into this hole and deserves either a Trump or a Biden.

I do find it funny how much people take things to heart though over what strangers say on the internet. People get so heated over what is pretty much out of their/our control, and for all they know the other person/people may be purposely winding them up.

Only one person @Luman answered my question of whether it would be better for the US to split into two parts. It's a desperate measure, but the US seems so divided over everything.

I hate politicians through and through, but it seems "we are all slaves" to them in one form or another.

Hi,

There's a book called "Adjustment Day", by Chuck Palahniuk, one of my favorite authors that envisions the separation of America by race and sexual orientation. It's kind of like if the Militias keep growing and everybody comes to the table and decides to split. It is hilarious and very appropriate for the US now. Louis Farrakhan, the long standing leader of the nation of Islam supports Trump and so do many of his white equivalents, because they feel Trump will dismantle all that is the status quo now and then they are validated and can jump in nationally much stronger with the vacuum. Many Americans agree with your idea that we have dug a hole for ourselves, they feel American arrogance and having our head in the sand for decades has led to this.
You also may check at Django unchained, great portrayal of American Slavery and entertaining too, a Tarantino film.

I agree with your point about humans being slaves to whatever system they live in. We are a hive, a collective at this point sucking the earth dry. When the Coronavirus lock downs were in full swing many humans could see views of mountains they had never seen from cities in Iran, India, China to the USA. It was an amazing moment of what earth could be, but is not. All the gain, my country is nuts with every paradox and contradiction imaginable. Home sweet home.

 

[Luman]

ALL of this shit, from Black Lives Matter, to the recent riots that started with George Floyd, are 99.9% due to the labor unions. If the cop unions did not have iron clad contracts that protect the worst police officers imaginable, none of this would have happened. The whole country is being torn apart with violence and division, because the politicians and unions support the right of cops to get away with anything, and are immune from being fired until they kill somebody, unjustly.

My position on this issue, is exactly the same as many Progressives, but I support Trump, over Biden, the latter of which today proclaimed himself, once he's in the White House, organized labor's best friend.

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/biden-trump-clash-over-coronavirus-

From the above link:
Also on Labor Day, Biden showcased his support for organized labor.

"You're going to have the best friend labor has ever had in the White House," Biden told a small group of union members gathered in Lancaster.

The former vice president, who's long been a strong supporter of organized labor, later headed to Harrisburg – Pennsylvania's capital city. Biden stopped at the state AFL-CIO headquarters to join a virtual event with union President Richard Trumka, and take questions from rank and file members.

 

[Juan]

It's necessary but without a bailout a lot of landlords are going to go bankrupt, I agree.

I don't really understand how in the US, in theory the land of freedom, landlords are deprived from their rights. Now they cannot even charge rent!!!

 

[Born To Slay]

I don't really understand how in the US, in theory the land of freedom, landlords are deprived from their rights. Now they cannot even charge rent!!!

Because millions getting evicted isn't ideal when we want people to socially distance. Can you imagine the spread that'd result from millions flooding into the homeless shelters? It'd be a nightmare, COVID-19 cases would skyrocket and we'd have be worse for it economically.

That said, landlords should get bailed out as part of the next stimulus package. We can't let them go bankrupt. Not only for their own good but to prevent the scenario described above.

 

[Born To Slay]

ALL of this shit, from Black Lives Matter, to the recent riots that started with George Floyd, are 99.9% due to the labor unions. If the cop unions did not have iron clad contracts that protect the worst police officers imaginable, none of this would have happened. The whole country is being torn apart with violence and division, because the politicians and unions support the right of cops to get away with anything, and are immune from being fired until they kill somebody, unjustly.

My position on this issue, is exactly the same as many Progressives, but I support Trump, over Biden, the latter of which today proclaimed himself, once he's in the White House, organized labor's best friend.

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/biden-trump-clash-over-coronavirus-

From the above link:
Also on Labor Day, Biden showcased his support for organized labor.

"You're going to have the best friend labor has ever had in the White House," Biden told a small group of union members gathered in Lancaster.

The former vice president, who's long been a strong supporter of organized labor, later headed to Harrisburg – Pennsylvania's capital city. Biden stopped at the state AFL-CIO headquarters to join a virtual event with union President Richard Trumka, and take questions from rank and file members.

So if Biden is better for police union interests, why are most police unions endorsing president Trump?

 

[PeteJ]

So if Biden is better for police union interests, why are most police unions endorsing president Trump?

Who on earth would argue that?

 

[Luman]

So if Biden is better for police union interests, why are most police unions endorsing president Trump?

Biden was talking about labor unions in general, not specifically cop unions. The PBA in NYC supports Trump. They usually don't take sides, this year is different.

https://newyork.cbslocal.com/2020/08/15/nypd-police-benevolent-association-endorses-president-trump/

Last summer some cops knocked down a 75 year old man in Buffalo, at a demonstration, which put him in the hospital When Gov. Cuomo spoke of it on his daily coronavirus briefing, he said that he couldn't do anything about the cops who did this, because they "have a contract", with a little glace at the camera, but that's all he would say. He knows very well what the score is: Cop Unions 100% the Public 0%.

Can't really answer the question, except to say that nobody in government wants to tackle this very difficult issue.

Here's a Democrat who has shown her true colors, regarding cop unions, and her refusal to prosecute bad cops.

https://www.businessinsider.com/amy...ce-union-pacs-vice-president-contender-2020-6

 

[Juan]

Because millions getting evicted isn't ideal when we want people to socially distance. Can you imagine the spread that'd result from millions flooding into the homeless shelters? It'd be a nightmare, COVID-19 cases would skyrocket and we'd have be worse for it economically.

That said, landlords should get bailed out as part of the next stimulus package. We can't let them go bankrupt. Not only for their own good but to prevent the scenario described above.

Hahaha then the US is going to bail out 100% of its population in one way or another. Is there enough money for that? How much the US dollar will be worth after printing so much paper?

 

[PeteJ]

The economy is a game of chicken. In order to worship the current economy, one has to admit that Obama's strategy of ballooning the deficit, in order to obtain growth, followed by lowering the deficit, actually worked. I remember Trump supporters praising the economy after Trump won and he didn't even enact a single policy yet -- he just continued Obama's trends for the most part. People with Obama Derangement Syndrome were quick to point out that the economic gains didn't count, even though Obama inherited a recession (and all of the wars) -- hence, the Tea Party.

Here are some numbers on this economy made of a house of cards (https://www.forbes.com/sites/chuckj...deficits-are-racing-past-obamas/#7d898ff48199)

• During Obama's first year in office, he raised the deficit from $459 billion to $1.4 trillion (during the recession).
• By 2016, it was $585 billion, up from $442 billion in 2015.
• In 2017, Trump grew the deficit to $666 billion. So if we're being fair, the percentage change was 32.3% from 2015-16 under Obama and 13.8% under Trump. Since then, Trump has sky rocketed the deficit.

Here's a graphic, obviously with projections beyond Trump:
View attachment 40546

Either one has to praise ballooning the deficit as a tactic for growth, or condemn the Trump economy.

Now, of course, if Obama supporters want to take credit for the economy, they have to also admit that the economy was great (under Trump) before COVID. Either way, I don't think this is a topic that a Trump voter has a particularly great argument for why Obama ran the economy so poorly. And assuming Joe Biden is a like a third Obama term, there's not really a great argument against Joe's economy. After all, Joe has said "nothing will fundamentally change," which should be the dream to the Trump supporter right now.

Both increased the deficit and debt.

The parties are the same, remember? Plus, liberals supported this. It also increased under the fake and manufactured paranoia of COVID-1984. The economy was shut down and liberals demanded that. The social services necessary to finance this would require more government assistance and funding.

Trump didn't "drain the swamp" but I don't know how much of that was all his doing or resistance from political opponents who blocked him. No matter, most of these promises like ending military intervention in foreign countries didn't end. But, liberals are hypocrites so their critiques don't mean much. Their complaints aren't neutral, subjective or unbiased. But, yeah, there's a lot of valid complaints for Mr. Trump but it's pointless to obtain it from liberals.

 

[Born To Slay]

Hahaha then the US is going to bail out 100% of its population in one way or another. Is there enough money for that? How much the US dollar will be worth after printing so much paper?

The upper number that's been thrown around is around 3.4 trillion. The US can, and unfortunately likely will have to, afford that. The alternative is far worse, letting the economy die. It's as if the American economy needs emergency surgery and the surgery has a lot of risk but if it doesn't get that surgery, it could end up losing body parts.

 

[Luman]

Slanderous stories about President Trump were published by The Atlantic, last Thursday, which Trump denied are true. The editor has now said that the main story is probably false.

Atlantic Editor Concedes Central Claim Of Trump Hit Could Be Wrong

 

[PeteJ]

Hahaha then the US is going to bail out 100% of its population in one way or another. Is there enough money for that? How much the US dollar will be worth after printing so much paper?

You ask good sensible questions but no one will have an answer.

 

[PeteJ]

The upper number that's been thrown around is around 3.4 trillion. The US can, and unfortunately likely will have to, afford that. The alternative is far worse, letting the economy die. It's as if the American economy needs emergency surgery and the surgery has a lot of risk but if it doesn't get that surgery, it could end up losing body parts.

Why not just 5 trillion or 10 trillion?

I guess liberals vote for Democrats because they believe it'll be another 20 trillion for everyone except for rich people who can provide part of that. Everyone parties and they will even allocate 30 trillion for tinnitus suffers. I am on board then. Go Biiiiiiiiiidennn..!

 

[Born To Slay]

Biden was talking about labor unions in general, not specifically cop unions. The PBA in NYC supports Trump. They usually don't take sides, this year is different.

https://newyork.cbslocal.com/2020/08/15/nypd-police-benevolent-association-endorses-president-trump/

Last summer some cops knocked down a 75 year old man in Buffalo, at a demonstration, which put him in the hospital When Gov. Cuomo spoke of it on his daily coronavirus briefing, he said that he couldn't do anything about the cops who did this, because they "have a contract", with a little glace at the camera, but that's all he would say. He knows very well what the score is: Cop Unions 100% the Public 0%.

Can't really answer the question, except to say that nobody in government wants to tackle this very difficult issue.

Here's a Democrat who has shown her true colors, regarding cop unions, and her refusal to prosecute bad cops.

https://www.businessinsider.com/amy...ce-union-pacs-vice-president-contender-2020-6

Sure, neither party is great on this issue. But you said you were voting for Trump over Biden in part because of this, so I would like to know how that makes sense when police unions in general think Trump is better for their interests. In general when people oppose a union, they don't endorse the same candidate the union does.

 

[PeteJ]

@all to gain, you might find these articles interesting (or entertaining, depending on your p.o.v.)?:

https://www.armstrongeconomics.com/...red-him-a-bribe-to-impose-covid-restrictions/

https://www.zerohedge.com/geopoliti...onditional-imposing-extreme-lockdowns-curfews

I think it's believable/feasible. It's not the first time banks and NGOs tried to intimidate/bribe a country (and its government) into adhering to an agenda.

I guess this is off topic but we have mentioned Russia/Ukraine/Belarus here, right?

 

[PeteJ]

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...BLM-protesters-drink-beer-demand-apology.html

BLM harassing and intimidating people again, mostly white people. They attacked people in Rochester like this, too, recently. But, liberals still ignore it and are in denial.

 

[Juan]

The upper number that's been thrown around is around 3.4 trillion. The US can, and unfortunately likely will have to, afford that. The alternative is far worse, letting the economy die. It's as if the American economy needs emergency surgery and the surgery has a lot of risk but if it doesn't get that surgery, it could end up losing body parts.

If the US, and the world in general, had been more cautious about risks and interest rates that are too low, now we would not have an economic problem... maybe bailing out everyone AGAIN will only make matters worse.