Agnostics “R” Us...

In the UK where I live - evolution deniers are very rare indeed. I have only met two in the last 45 years. One man I know in the 1980s wrote of Darwin's theory on the basis he did most of his study on one island - I think he believed we were engineered and dropped off on the planet by aliens. I was not sharp enough in those days to ask him where the aliens came from. I suppose he would have said they were in turn made by other aliens and its turtles all the way down. Also I did not really care enough much in those days to challenge people who thought like this. I accepted scientific consensus for the diversity of life then as I do now and did not care enough to respond if other people made what I would now say are statements which demonstrate fallacious thinking, arrogance and lack of knowledge.

The other guy - more recently - I have a club I go to every week and there is an old man there who is very religious. His faith means a lot to him. Somehow evolution came up in the discussion and he said people who accept evolution have mostly not read Darwin's book. I made some comment along the lines that even if true, that has no impact on the soundness of the theory of evolution and that it has withstood over 100 years of scrutiny. He muttered something about there being more and more scientists who disbelieve it. I said, very few and they are all Christians. His lips tightened and we dropped the topic. I never returned to it and neither did he. I value my rapport too much with him to come back to it and probably regret that I responded as I did.

 

@just1morething likes to torment me with images of Trump. Don't mind us, it's our own little joke.

My mother is a Christian @Stuart-T. When she tells me she's going to church, there are times I want to ask why? But what's the point? This is certainly a topic that's it's best not to debate with some people.

 

Yes, as you say, what is the point.

I was married to a Christian for 20 years and lost count the number of times I got down on my knees with her and prayed to God to protect our son. She asked if I believe in God and I said yes, though I implied it was more an ultimate life force kind of God and she found that acceptable. It would have made things very difficult if I flat out told her I was an atheist. Why marry a Christian? When I met her, she never really spoke about her beliefs and it was only later she started becoming religious. My objective was harmony in the family and I saw no problem with that little white lie.

I would marry a Christian again if she was the right one otherwise - no hesitation - and if necessary, I would feign belief once again if the marriage is otherwise worth my while. It's no big deal. However - I would not marry a Muslim.

 

I find this interesting. You accepted her belief, you don't think she would have accepted your atheism? If you don't mind me asking, why not a Muslim?

 

She would have seen my atheism as a threat to her son. You don't believe in God - he is going to hurt you somehow to get your attention.

Why not Islam? - A quote from the Koran (4:34):

"Men are in charge of women by [right of] what Allah has given one over the other and what they spend [for maintenance] from their wealth. So righteous women are devoutly obedient, guarding in [the husband’s] absence what Allah would have them guard. But those [wives] from whom you fear arrogance – [first] advise them; [then if they persist], forsake them in bed; and [finally], strike them. But if they obey you [once more], seek no means against them. Indeed, Allah is ever Exalted and Grand."​

That is one of many reasons why.

 

Ah, yes. The subjugation of women. I'm sure there's something similar in the Bible. That's religion for you.

 

There is nothing in the Bible even remotely close where God is fine with domestic abuse/husbands striking wives. Domestic violence is sin (Husbands, love your wives and do not be harsh with them. - Colossians 3:19). Husbands are to love their wives as Christ loves the Church. However, there are gender roles in the Bible and wives are to obey/submit to the husband (as the Church obeys Christ). Also, conservative Christians do not believe it is right for women to teach men on religious matters. Other than these examples, there is no "subjugation".

Actually, the missionaries were sent to foreign lands to clothe the people and protect them. In many cases, in these native lands (insert whatever country/island), the natives were barely clothed and had very open and unusual sexual practices which often started at a very young age. If you read the early history of Hawaii, you would be shocked.

 

Obey/submit? Give me a break. I wonder what sort of horrors have been committed with that used as a justification.

 

There are repugnant things in the Bible too - yes, I am aware of that. The difference is that Christians generally shun the bad bits of the Bible while Muslims embrace the nonsense in theirs. The Islamic mind set is just too far off the charts for me.

 

Maybe... But you do make a big generalisation. They can be as bad as each other.

 

No, the husband cannot force the wife to commit wrongdoing/sin.

Wives, submit yourselves to your husbands, as is fitting in the Lord. - Colossians 3:18.

As noted above, domestic abuse is also a wrongdoing. There is no other way around it, but in a Christian marriage the husband is head of household meaning he is ultimately responsible for providing/protecting, and the wife is more of a helper/supporter, but both are equal to God.

 

Yes, there are extremists in any religion but on average my perception and experience tells me that I would want to avoid getting involved with a Muslim woman. For one thing Muslims circumcise boys - Christians do not mutilate infants.

 

I was married to a Christian, we were together for 22 years. It was never once an issue, we had mutual respect for each other’s beliefs. Other members of her family have a problem with my beliefs but never her.

 

This verse has been misused to justify treating women badly, most definitely, and that is WRONG. This verse stands as truth if the Bible is our authority. It's not a religious act, we do it because we love God. If our husband is asking us to sin or to go against God, that's a different story.

This!

 

I don't know of anything in the Bible which supports this claim. If the man outranks the woman in marriage - any claims to equality are false.

"But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence"

1 Timothy 2:12

I'm afraid you will struggle to back up any claim to equality of the sexes if you are using the Bible for evidence.

 

Which God are you talking about? If it's the Bible one, he was not a God, but supposedly a prophet. The Bible does not prove there was a God.

 

Genetics, environment, lifestyle choices, who knows. Cancer does not care who you are or what kind of a life you live, only that you are a suitable host for cell mutation. There is no cure for my stage 4 cancer, although thankfully more progress has been made on other types of cancer.

 

I should have clarified that both are equally valued by God.

"There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus." - Galatians 3:28

I agree that within the context of marriage, the man outranks the wife in making decisions. However, even within this context, the husband should follow basic Christian principles which means do nothing out of self-interest or selfishness, which means a good Christian husband listens to his wife.

We must remember women in those times, until Jesus came along, were second class citizens. Jesus elevated the status of women in many ways through His interactions with them which were considered taboo and forward in those days.

 

You did say that.

But claiming that doesn't make it so.

If it was so - God would not specifically make the man master of the woman.

And if God valued slaves and their masters equally - God would have outlawed slavery in the ten commandments.

 

Hi Elmer Fudd! Sweet name by the way.

Yes, I am talking about the God of the Bible. The maker of Heaven and Earth, the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. Jesus (or Yeshua) if you must, in the Bible claims to be God, not a prophet. The Bible has plenty of evidence to prove its authenticity, one is the Gospels. All of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John give an account of His existence and of the miracles that Jesus performed as God in the flesh.

One question, honestly... with all due respect. Who are we to say what God should and would not do? That's using our own made up morals. Where do we get our morals from, if not by God?

This verse is talking about women in the church, specifically Corinth.

We are equal, but men and women have different roles.

God never condoned slavery...

 

The husband/wife relationship dynamics transcend inequality issues. While the husband has authority, he is instructed to die for the wife if need be (modeling how Christ died for the Church). This is not expected of the wife. Some men may be willing to give up their authority over this sacrifice. So, this is different from the master/slave relation though some men could twist the husband/wife relationship this way.

The slavery we think of today such as stealing and selling people, human trafficking, etc. was in fact outlawed in the Bible ("anyone who kidnaps someone is to be put to death, whether the victim has been sold or is still in the kidnapper’s possession." - Exodus 21:16). God also led the Jews out of Egypt out of slavery. The slavery situation was such that one could sell themselves into slavery to pay debt. Slaves were also obtained in other ways, such as through war, jails (thieves), buying and selling slaves who have not completed their "sentence", or children born into slavery. There were rules on how slaves should be treated, in extreme cases of abuse they can be freed. Also, they can buy their freedom or another person could buy their freedom. However, unfortunately, corporal punishment was allowed which can turn into abuse.

 

Well, other mammals besides humans are capable of having moral sensibilities too. You’ve ever seen a dog take care of its newborn puppies?

Chimpanzees are known to share food with other Chimpanzees in their group. Elephants will grieve and comfort each other when it senses pain and sadness from one another. Why are dolphins so friendly to humans? Animals don’t worship a deity figure, but we see how some animals can share the same feelings as humans.

God or no God... Empathy, nurturing, and behaving morally is innate in us, but I also think the society in which we live in can impact our morals too.

 

@SarahMLFlemmer, I used to be a Christian so there's hope for you yet.

 

I wonder who made these said animals?

His Word keeps me going.

A Christian that walks away from the faith, I'm not so sure ever really was a Christian... no disrespect, sir. How can anyone who knows the truth walk away from it? What happened?

 

It is reasonable to presume that animals worship (in their own way) and recognize God. God communicates with the animals, one example is God directed the animals to enter Noah's ark. Another example is Daniel in the lion's den. The Bible focuses on God's relationship with man, so we should not expect to gather much information about the relationship between God and animals from this text (plus, animals are unable to read anyway). I agree that animals share the same feelings as humans (though less complex). I would not be surprised if animals (especially the more intelligent ones) have spiritual awareness and so connect with God as He is also a spirit.

 

I doubt it. That book was written by 7 goat herders 700 years after your so called God. Religion is one of the biggest con games on earth.

"Religion was invented when the first con man met the first fool." — Mark Twain

 

Well you are contradicting yourself or the Bible is. You are claiming the Bible outlaws slavery, then you are acknowledging that the Bible lays down rules on how slaves should be treated. We can find this in Exodus:

Exodus 21:20-21

"Anyone who beats their male or female slave with a rod must be punished if the slave dies as a direct result, but they are not to be punished if the slave recovers after a day or two, since the slave is their property."​

So it is OK to beat a slave as long as the slave does not die. It also acknowledges that the owner has a right - to a point - to do what he/she wants with their property.

What God should be saying is :"thou shalt not own other people as property."

The kidnapping verse clearly means kidnapping is forbidden. It does not mean slavery is forbidden. It implies that people were being kidnapped and sold into slavery - which still happens today.

So God is evidently OK with slavery as long as slaves were not too severely beaten.

Not only is slavery not outlawed in the Bible - it is regulated as we have seen in Exodus - and supported in the New Testament:

Ephesians 6:5

"Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear and sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ."​

Well there we have it - do you want me to start showing you where it tells fathers to beat and even stone unruly sons?

Or the parts where God tells Jews to kill all the boys and take the virgins of the conquered Midianites for themselves.

We see the Jews keeping slaves throughout the whole of the Old Testament and the New Testament too and nothing was done about it. Clearly the God of the Bible supported slavery.

There are true facts in the Bible. We know that Jerusalem exists, for example. But then New York exists too - but that does not mean Spiderman is real.

The Bible cannot be evidence for itself. The Bible makes claims of a supernatural nature. We need some way outside of the Bible to corroborate these claims. Otherwise we would have to believe any book which makes any claim. You would need to be a Muslim, Hindu etc. because they all have holy books too and those faiths make the same circular claims that you are making. The Bible is true - why? Because the Bible says it is true.

So what is your evidence outside of the Bible which can support belief in the existence of God, miracles and the resurrection?

So if God told you to go and kill your child - as he did with Abraham - you would do it, right? Anything God says makes it ok?

Thankfully I do not believe in a God so do not keep slaves - I never stoned my son for being unruly - and I was not master over my wife - we were equals. I use the wellbeing and empathy model to decide what is right and wrong. I believe in situational morality - there may be circumstances in which killing and stealing, for example, are moral acts.

Morals are rules about what is right and wrong. Societies have found over the millennia that having rules benefits the community so it benefitted all to forbid murder - stealing - bearing false witness etc. There is no reason to believe morals come from any deity.

Christians kept slaves in the USA well into the 19th century because they were using the bible's support for slavery as justification. Yes, the God of the Bible does support slavery - see my other post - the Jews kept slaves throughout the Old Testament and New Testament and God never said don't keep slaves. He said - don't beat them so hard that they die. But beating slaves otherwise was sanctioned. The New Testaments says - slaves, obey your masters, as we obey Christ. You don't know your own Bible.

And why do women have to be silent in church but not men?

Timothy 2

"Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness. 12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet. 13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve; 14 and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor. 15 Yet she will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith and love and holiness, with self-control."​

So women should not then be priests after all. And we should not see women teaching men in any capacity. It was the woman who was tricked, not the man - she can only be saved by being a bearer of children so that's her place. Eve's gullibility or willingness to be tricked has been very costly for women ever since.

Personally I can't subscribe to anything so repugnant and misogynistic - but if that's your religion - good luck to you.

 

I used to be an agnostic, so ditto!

 

We don't know who wrote the Old Testament books. Clearly the Jews had some highly literate people and I consider the Old and New Testaments to be iconic and great works of the ancient world.

But that does not mean the core supernatural claims are true. That there is a God - or that anything miraculous ever happened.

 

I'm not a "sir" and at the time, l did believe in God. I saw a story about animals being tortured. I decided then and there that there was no God. Of course I knew that evil existed in the world and had seen many horrible things but I never questioned my faith. I don't know what was different this time. Perhaps it was the straw that broke the camel's back. But something inside me clicked and my belief died. I went to my room, tore up my Bible and threw it in the bin.

I will admit to you that old habits die hard. Last year I went through a phase of saying the Lord's prayer before trying to go to sleep. But don't get any ideas @SarahMLFlemmer. I've been an atheist for many years and unless I have solid proof to state otherwise, will remain so.