Agnostics “R” Us...

[Jazzer]

It has been sometime since I confirmed my lack of faith - believing as I do - that nobody can know of the existence of god - we can only guess.
These cartoons gave me a chuckle...

 

[Daniel Lion]

May I recommend the movie "Year 1" with Jack Black and Jessie Eisenberg.
It has the funniest Cane and Abel skit ever.
Please watch.

Also Mel Brooks is a classic with "History Of The World".
Please watch....

 

[Jazzer]

 

[Elmer B Fuddled]

@Jazzer well I have written a couple of humour stories on why the big guy doesn't acknowledge us.

Big guy and his pal Biff were watching Eve and Adam through their huge telescope. The big guy was out with the sheep that Abel had given him, we know not what he was up to. In the meantime Biff was watching the two. Adam was eating marijuana plants, Eve was being conjolled into eating the apple, although Adam said you must not eat it. So Biff watching, seen Eve pick the apple, by the time he got a hold of the big guy Eve bit the apple. Big guy was upset. I shall not answer anyone's prayer, no more miracles, and they can all fuck off, with that him and Biff sat down opened a bottle of grogg and cheese and crackers, got drunk, and from then on has ignored "his" people.

Religion was invented by a con man who then found the first fool.

Mark Twain

 

[Jazzer]

Hiya @Elmer B Fuddled
Nice to exchange wry smiles with another heathen.
To get down to brass tacks:
God is (apparently)
All knowing
All powerful
All loving
All wonderful
All 'Blah - Blah - Blah' etc.....
- and not only that,
'he sees the sparrow fall.....'
(didn't save him though, did he?)

But does he see us severe Tinnitus sufferers fall ??
Well there's no evidence from my end.
'ZILCH!'

If religion works for you - great.
But if it doesn't, have the courage (intelligence)
to just boot it out.

 

[Elmer B Fuddled]

Hiya @Elmer B Fuddled
Nice to exchange wry smiles with another heathen.
To get down to brass tacks:
God is (apparently)
All knowing
All powerful
All loving
All wonderful
All 'Blah - Blah - Blah' etc.....
- and not only that,
'he sees the sparrow fall.....'
(didn't save him though, did he?)

But does he see us severe Tinnitus sufferers fall ??
Well there's no evidence from my end.
'ZILCH!'

If religion works for you - great.
But if it doesn't, have the courage (intelligence)
to just boot it out.
View attachment 36882

Lovely paintings and plaster saints.

 

[Elmer B Fuddled]

Lovely paintings and plaster saints.

My shoes are worn thin from the miles of life I have walked. Through physical abuse to hell and back. Yet I live for kindness only to give it with no returns.

 

[Jazzer]

My shoes are worn thin from the miles of life I have walked. Through physical abuse to hell and back. Yet I live for kindness only to give it with no returns.

My religion.........x

- absolutely with you here brother......xx

 

[Elmer B Fuddled]

@Jazzer
I want to tell you a story and it's true.
When I was a young one some 68 years ago, I questioned my mother as to why she never went to church on Sundays.
Her reply, church is a waste of time. My church is the outdoors, your grandfather was the same. His church is life. Isn't that interesting, to think like that. I don't remember my grandfather all that well.
I will move on. My father was raised in a orphanage, he was only a child, never knew love, or kindness. He ran away from the orphanage at 12, during the depression years. Finding whatever work he could and a meal. I never felt love from him or any explanation about his way of being. He eventually went to work as an underground miner, mining for silver and lead, at a depth into the earth of 7200 feet down, where the heat and humidity was 120 degrees. In 1964 he was buried alive, but rescued, he survived. But his life was ruined. Mother had him admitted to a VA hospital, in there he became one who flew over the cuckoo's nest. They shocked his brain to erase what had happened. Years passed, he suffered with tinnitus, heart and kidney problems. He slept hours, upon hours, getting up to eat and toilet. Then one day he just snapped out of it. He read the bible 7 times, trying to understand, and then said, that's a load of bullshit. From what I've read, hes looking in my face. From what I've read, must have taken 7 Jews to write the damn thing, and man did they have some wild imaginations. Later his poor health caught up to him, and he spent more time in bed. One day he woke up and hollered to mom, what the hell I keep hearing someone singing bible songs in my head, only fucking thing it sounds like old corn nose, Willie Nelson. The man never prayed and had no fear of dying.
I could never believe that this so called god didn't offer a hand to help. But then after Vietnam I lost of ever believing a god and that's where agnostic took over.

 

[GlennS]

People are social creatures. Church is sort of the default form of community beyond friends and family. I can understand why people go. That does not, mind you, necessarily mean everyone who goes to church is equally devout. It is the sense of belonging that matters most.

Also, people like to be given words of wisdom handed down by others. Why do you think the self-help book industry is so huge? Dear Abby? When you go to church and you listen to sermons you're supposedly being given a set of tools to navigate through life's hardships.

Again, all of the above is independent of having to buy into any religious dogma.

Having been raised atheist I was asked to reject all of the above wholescale which meant I wasn't able to understand the appeal. It was easy to write it off purely on the basis of, let's say, rejecting creationism. This is just much too narrow a view of the pros and cons of religion.

When I venture around the internet and see how widespread people's delusions are about the world and how it works, not just with traditional religion but latching onto any and every conceivable conspiracy theory, I realize that having a false idea of the world is the norm rather than the exception. I can either become a raging misanthrope or just accept the fact that the average person lacks the intellectual rigor to discern fact from fiction. So if you were to eliminate organized religion then the same part of human nature that spawns religion would just be consumed with deep state conspiracy theories and ancient aliens atlantis / nibiru type stuff.

You know how they've run these studies where they stage a fake crime scene and then they question first hand witnesses and all of them give slightly different testimony? Even direct experience is faulty. We just sort of construct our sense of reality out of our own minds. I don't say this to excuse flat-earthers and what not, but that when we try to discern reality we are swimming upstream against the nature of the human brain and our overactive subjective imagination.

The problem I have with some atheists is they shoot fish in a barrel by pointing out the pseudo-science of the bible while ignoring any possible practical benefits of being involved in church life or deriving a sense of hope or guidance through religion (even if it's as imaginary as Dumbo's feather). Atheists are some of the most miserable people in the world, like Christopher Hitchens who committed slow suicide through smokes and booze.

 

[Mister Muso]

@GlennS I've never understood the reverence in which atheists hold Christopher Hitchens. He may be very well-read and a capable orator, but at times he has the emotional intelligence of a teenager. Dawkins is just as bad.

If you want a modern sceptic to inspire you, I'd try Stephen Fry or David Attenborough. Better still, read the religious texts for yourself; talk to people of all faiths and none; and draw your own conclusions.

 

[Lilah]

The reason why people go to church is simple: Jesus. Any benefits that may result from being part of a community is secondary. Jesus is why people convert to Christianity. Christians do not overthink or analyze the wide array of societal or even theological issues when they decide to follow/convert.

 

[Mister Muso]

The reason why people go to church is simple: Jesus. Any benefits that may result from being part of a community is secondary. Jesus is why people convert to Christianity. Christians do not overthink or analyze the wide array of societal or even theological issues when they decide to follow/convert.

I started going to church because a girl I fancied was going there.

I kept on going because of Jesus.

 

[Jazzer]

'God moves in a mysterious way
his wonders to perform.'

 

[Jazzer]

The problem I have with some atheists is they shoot fish in a barrel by pointing out the pseudo-science of the bible while ignoring any possible practical benefits of being involved in church life or deriving a sense of hope or guidance through religion (even if it's as imaginary as Dumbo's feather). Atheists are some of the most miserable people in the world, like Christopher Hitchens who committed slow suicide through smokes and booze.

I have to say Glenn that I find Dawkins and Hitchens both intriguing.
Perhaps because I see no evidence for god.
As a little kid I lived in a total desperation of schizoid loneliness as my mother was desperately mentally ill and could never bond with me.

I prayed endlessly for a feeling of presences.
I knew that I was dying of isolation.
I couldn't even cry, unless I could manage to imagine a kindly face looking down on me.
"Please can you just let me know that you are there."

As you obviously know - Nothing happened.
I was 30 years old before I could afford some psychotherapy and began to feel 'recognised', and my pain validated.
I sobbed in therapy for months.

If the god of the bible existed - all knowing - all powerful - all loving - he would have come for me and comforted me.

Religion can only offer comfort and hope if god's presence is feasible.
I cannot love, let alone worship the totally unknowable.
My only interest is reality.
I see none.
All I can see is an elaborate myth.

However - neither Dawkins, Hitchens, nor anybody else can talk me into or out of religious faith.
My experiences of life are indelible.
Beyond all doubt for me.

 

[GlennS]

Religion can only offer comfort and hope if god's presence is feasible.

Look beyond the literal binary question of the godhead or supernatural elements and look at the underlying philosophical concepts within the bible (or other religions for that matter, especially eastern ones). There is a LOT of useful stuff in there.

Even if you're atheist unless you want to be a cold and clinical nihilist you are still going to want to form some set of personal beliefs and values, think secular humanism. You're doing that with one hand tied behind your back if you don't expose yourself to religious teachings. The good stuff to glean from is essentially secular humanism with unnecessary supernatural stuff sprinkled on top.

Take what works... discard the rest.

 

[GlennS]

The reason why people go to church is simple: Jesus. Any benefits that may result from being part of a community is secondary. Jesus is why people convert to Christianity. Christians do not overthink or analyze the wide array of societal or even theological issues when they decide to follow/convert.

You can't make such naive generalizations. And we're talking about all religions here. For instance, in Islam you don't even have a choice. If you are born into Islam you're sort of imprisoned by it under pain of death (or at least severe consequences). In any religious community there will be levels of faith and quite a few poseurs.

This is a sociological fact. The group you're put into while growing up exerts a huge force on you to conform to the manner and customs of that group regardless of whether you truly want to or not. When in Rome, do as the Romans.

This is actually part of the appeal against religion, the way it eats away at a sense of freewill. But it does provide benefits for those who feel a strong need to belong, even when they don't really subscribe to the mission-statement.

 

[Lilah]

You can't make such naive generalizations. And we're talking about all religions here. For instance, in Islam you don't even have a choice. If you are born into Islam you're sort of imprisoned by it under pain of death (or at least severe consequences). In any religious community there will be levels of faith and quite a few poseurs.

This is a sociological fact. The group you're put into while growing up exerts a huge force on you to conform to the manner and customs of that group regardless of whether you truly want to or not. When in Rome, do as the Romans.

This is actually part of the appeal against religion, the way it eats away at a sense of freewill. But it does provide benefits for those who feel a strong need to belong, even when they don't really subscribe to the mission-statement.

It people go to church just for community, they will be disappointed and will leave after awhile. They will feel out of place, feel uncomfortable singing worship songs, feel a bit cynical about sermons, etc. The people who go to church go because of Jesus, either because they are devout or they are seeking or anywhere in between. There are a multitude of other options now if people want to find community. I agree in the past when church served as the central place for community, people went just for community as there were no other options. Similarly, if Islam is the only option for Muslims, they will be forced to find community there.

 

[Jazzer]

I obviously believe in love, kindness, consideration - 'do unto others' etc.....
but the question remains - is god a reality?

I was brought up until age 18 in a church,
The Salvation Army, but my continuous indoctrination failed, largely for the reasons in my earlier post.
Nobody needed god more than that little kid.
If he existed - as per the bible - then where was he?
I am not doubting the value of moral teaching, the wisdom of the Ten Commandments etc....
but god's non-appearance is crucial to me.
Is god a reality ??
Christians tell me they have a personal relationship with the living god.'
Really?
I believe they have a personal relationship with a figment of their imagination.
By the way - I wouldn't call myself an atheist.
That would be illogical - because I cannot 'know ' if god exists - and neither can anybody else.
They can 'believe' through faith - but that does not make god a reality - does it?
A reality for them - perhaps.
An agnostic accepts the fact that he cannot know, and that conclusion is fine, because it is in line with one's cognitive integrity.
It's a fascinating conundrum - we could discuss this for ever, but there is no way of ever finding out anything more than what we actually know right now.
One thing's for sure.
He is not interactive - like in a computer game - is he?
There is no sign of intervention, is there?
Look at the fate of us sufferers.
The universe does not give - 'a pickled SHIT !!!'

Dawkins and Hitchens look for the reality.
So do I.

 

[Jazzer]

 

[Jazzer]

 

[Jazzer]

 

[Elmer B Fuddled]

You can't make such naive generalizations. And we're talking about all religions here. For instance, in Islam you don't even have a choice. If you are born into Islam you're sort of imprisoned by it under pain of death (or at least severe consequences). In any religious community there will be levels of faith and quite a few poseurs.

This is a sociological fact. The group you're put into while growing up exerts a huge force on you to conform to the manner and customs of that group regardless of whether you truly want to or not. When in Rome, do as the Romans.

This is actually part of the appeal against religion, the way it eats away at a sense of freewill. But it does provide benefits for those who feel a strong need to belong, even when they don't really subscribe to the mission-statement.

Well let's look a bit more into that line of crapola. I have first hand witness to messed up religion starting with Catholic, the church allows paedophiles to continue their sick ways on children, if found out, just send them to Africa, that covers that mess up. The child suffers a lifetime of guilt. Those so called servants of god, are a line of disgust. Then those priests have the balls to say, go pray for your sins, for taking a sweet from a shop.
And the rest of so called religion and their ways of describing the bible and we will all go to heaven (who the hell made up that line of bull?) And the only way you're going to heaven is if you keep filling the damn basket with money. Really? You have to buy your way in?
Mormonism a shadow or reality? Haaa
Ole Smith had his religion figured, bring em young and him have and are still fooling people, a fucking seer stone, yeah right.
I'd rather sit on a river bank and think about the reality of life, and if the cats been fed.

 

[Jazzer]

Well let's look a bit more into that line of crapola. I have first hand witness to messed up religion starting with Catholic, the church allows paedophiles to continue their sick ways on children, if found out, just send them to Africa, that covers that mess up. The child suffers a lifetime of guilt. Those so called servants of god, are a line of disgust. Then those priests have the balls to say, go pray for your sins, for taking a sweet from a shop.
And the rest of so called religion and their ways of describing the bible and we will all go to heaven (who the hell made up that line of bull?) And the only way you're going to heaven is if you keep filling the damn basket with money. Really? You have to buy your way in?
Mormonism a shadow or reality? Haaa
Ole Smith had his religion figured, bring em young and him have and are still fooling people, a fucking seer stone, yeah right.
I'd rather sit on a river bank and think about the reality of life, and if the cats been fed.

Very well said my friend xx

 

[GlennS]

I have first hand witness to messed up religion...

Am I disputing this? I'm saying that there is an upside to participating in religion, otherwise nobody would do it. You have to ask yourself why it is there are so few atheists in this world...despite all of the negatives you cite coming to light. Do you want to understand it fully or just blindly attack it? I assure you the world is not as black and white as you think it is.

 

[Jazzer]

Am I disputing this? I'm saying that there is an upside to participating in religion, otherwise nobody would do it. You have to ask yourself why it is there are so few atheists in this world...despite all of the negatives you cite coming to light. Do you want to understand it fully or just blindly attack it? I assure you the world is not as black and white as you think it is.

I would think there are far more atheists than believers, at a guess - certainly in Europe.
(Probably not in North America.)

I am blindly attacking nothing.
I have approached god a million times - I still do - and so far nothing.
People probably attend church for friendship, companionship, etc.... but to my mind the primary incentive for a religious life - is fear of possible punishment - retribution!
(Matthew talks about 'Lakes of fire.'
So small wonder people fear.)

Incidentally, you seem very annoyed with poor old Christopher Hitchens.
Yes - he was very cavalier with his health - but the practice of smoking and drinking does not constitute a decision to commit suicide.

Out of interest - can I ask you about your own religious background.
Were you reared or indoctrinated into a church??

 

[Jazzer]

 

[GlennS]

I am blindly attacking nothing.

I was replying to Elmer.

Incidentally, you seem very annoyed with poor old Christopher Hitchens.

Think of it this way.

Have you ever seen Children of Men? The premise behind Children of Men (and Cuaron is catholic) was that everyone had become sterile and the idea of life not going on beyond the current generation had driven the world mad to the point of a zombie apocalypse. There was really no fundamental problem with the world other than the lack of kids. Just that. If everyone had been simply content to live out their best lives, unconcerned with what would or would not come beyond that, then everything would have been fine.

What does that tell you about human nature? It says that you need something to hold onto as a motivator to live each day. For the majority, that comes from religion. But if you reject religion, you still need to find something else to take its place. If you don't, then you start swirling down the drain.

Take someone like Zack Snyder. His films are notorious for being nihilistic. Guess what? His daughter committed suicide. And while it may not be politically correct to blame his worldview for this, I genuinely think there is a direct linkage.

Religion isn't the only way to instill a sense of purpose but it is the easy road out. My problem with atheists is that fixating and focusing on disproving religion feels sort of like a suspended stage of personal development to me. Consider that there will always be people who believe regardless of what you say. So what value is there in tilting against this windmill? The step AFTER that is to find a secular pathway.

I was raised atheist but my grandmother was affiliated with the Unitarian Universalist church, which is sort of a church in name only. So my mother's side has a christian background and my father's side has a Jewish background. Being in the middle of this meant I felt no pressure to follow any footsteps.

I don't consider myself to be religious but there is a spiritual dimension in my life insofar as there are things that instill a sense of wonder or feel sacred to me.

 

[Jazzer]

I was replying to Elmer.

Think of it this way.

Have you ever seen Children of Men? The premise behind Children of Men (and Cuaron is catholic) was that everyone had become sterile and the idea of life not going on beyond the current generation had driven the world mad to the point of a zombie apocalypse. There was really no fundamental problem with the world other than the lack of kids. Just that. If everyone had been simply content to live out their best lives, unconcerned with what would or would not come beyond that, then everything would have been fine.

What does that tell you about human nature? It says that you need something to hold onto as a motivator to live each day. For the majority, that comes from religion. But if you reject religion, you still need to find something else to take its place. If you don't, then you start swirling down the drain.

Take someone like Zack Snyder. His films are notorious for being nihilistic. Guess what? His daughter committed suicide. And while it may not be politically correct to blame his worldview for this, I genuinely think there is a direct linkage.

Religion isn't the only way to instill a sense of purpose but it is the easy road out. My problem with atheists is that fixating and focusing on disproving religion feels sort of like a suspended stage of personal development to me. Consider that there will always be people who believe regardless of what you say. So what value is there in tilting against this windmill? The step AFTER that is to find a secular pathway.

I was raised atheist but my grandmother was affiliated with the Unitarian Universalist church, which is sort of a church in name only. So my mother's side has a christian background and my father's side has a Jewish background. Being in the middle of this meant I felt no pressure to follow any footsteps.

I don't consider myself to be religious but there is a spiritual dimension in my life insofar as there are things that instill a sense of wonder or feel sacred to me.

I'm trying to understand what you are saying but it's difficult for me.
I am not attempting to destroy anybody else's faith but I cannot possibly worship an unknowable entity.

The entire religious world could be being conned into belief.
In the (to me) total absence of any god, all I can believe in is my own integrity and the integrity of other good people.
Human empathy - kindness.

 

[GlennS]

Human empathy - kindness.

Is that what this represents? Sure looks like mockery to me.