Agnostics “R” Us...

[Lane]

My problem with atheists is that fixating and focusing on disproving religion feels sort of like a suspended stage of personal development to me.

@GlennS -- That certainly wasn't the case for me. Once I decided in my early 20's to determinedly "get to the heart" of things regarding life and spirituality, I immediately returned to and reviewed the Christian faith of my upbringing, this time deciding to look at it with more of an open mind (I was somewhat of a religious rebel during my 8 years of parochial grade school). It only took me a few months of sincere review of several different Christian orientations to determine I was right all along, that there was simply nothing there for me, and I again (this time totally) rejected the "vengeful" and "jealous" god of my youth.

Once I finished that review and reaffirmed my more jaundiced view of Christianity, it felt like a huge load had been lifted from me, allowing me take a significant step forward spiritually. The reason being that I had definitively and conclusively left it behind, opening the doors wide open for me to pursue what I considered to be other more uplifting spiritual endeavors. -- So far from my "atheism" for the Christian god being some kind of "suspended stage" for myself, I instead considered it (and still do) to have been a major catalyst for me to move forward in life.

And taking this step paid huge life dividends for me, even though I did have to contend with some disapproval from some family and friends. But I had been looking for a certain kind of love somewhere within Christianity, and just couldn't find it there. So Christianity became a "dead" religion for me. Once I looked elsewhere for that certain kind of love I felt was out there somewhere, I did find it, and it totally transformed my life for the better. The way I look at it, everybody finds their way to love sooner or later, whether in this lifetime or a future one. For some, that path to love will be found through Christianity, for others it won't. I just happen to fall in that "other" category, and also happened to pass through the gateway of atheism.

 

[Jazzer]

Is that what this represents? Sure looks like mockery to me.

View attachment 37053

I guess it is mockery - or maybe just a bit of fun...?

 

[Mister Muso]

@Lane Vengeful and jealous God?

Are you sure you read past the Old Testament?

 

[Mister Muso]

View attachment 37025

As a Christian I actually like this. We can be honest and real with God. He won't get offended.

 

[Mister Muso]

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This one I find a little harder to stomach. That may have been the path to enlightment for you, but to me it smacks slightly of a sense of self-congratulatory superiority, whether you personally meant it that way or not. Since none of us can know for sure if there is a God, then isn't there an equal chance that either of us may be wrong?

 

[Jazzer]

As a Christian I actually like this. We can be honest and real with God. He won't get offended.

The question is - does he even exist?

 

[GlennS]

@Lane Vengeful and jealous God?
Are you sure you read past the Old Testament?

For the record, I was once married to a Jehovah's Witness. The reason behind that is not something I want to go into but I know first-hand the damage that an oppressive religious world-view can cause or potentially cause, from denying my daughter birthdays, Halloween, traditional Christmas, and (worst of all) blood transfusions. That being said, religion is a very broad concept and it bleeds into philosophy, morality/ethics, politics, psychology, etc... I find it hard to believe that anyone could find nothing of value to glean from learning more about it, and when I say learn I don't just mean from a narrow US-centric christian-centric viewpoint.

For instance, I saw Star Wars when I was 7. I think at that age and given my upbringing I was looking for something vaguely religious but I was not going to get it from my parents. I got it from movies and I continued to look to the power of myth, so to speak, as a source of life teaching. Even if something about what I'm reading rings false, it's useful for me to at least expose myself to the concept so I can think it through for myself. I'd rather take it in than to just shrug it off.

I guess what the discussion going on in this thread has done is show that maybe I'm not an atheist in a conventional sense. I can't put a label on where I stand but I definitely hold no affiliation to any one dogma. I think there's a lot of practical value to be had in eastern religion. This is why a lot of otherwise secular yuppies keep talking about "mindfulness" or why David Lynch is such a proponent of transcendental meditation. I think the ego is probably the root of all problems. I also am very sympathetic to pantheism (which Star Wars draws upon). However Christianity has been abused through the ages, the version of Jesus who believes in forgiveness and turning the other cheek is badly needed today more than ever. Point being that there's a hell of a lot more going on than pedophile priests and ignorant creationists.

 

[Jazzer]

@GlennS I like much of this.
However, the first 18 years of my life were spent inside a church, and I accept that the Ten Commandments and the golden rule are the ways to live this life.
For two of those years I did a correspondence course in bible study.
I have done much more than merely scratch the surface.
But the big question surely is whether god is in actual fact a reality or not.
I still believe of course that
'nobody knows, nor can know, of the existence or nature of any possible god,' and that therefore, worship of an unknown is not even a logical possibility.
We cannot know, so therefore let us accept that 'NOT KNOWING' is fine, and inevitable.
I have turned to god a million times, looking for a presence, a feeling of 'withness' - and found nothing.
As for cartoons containing mockery - atheists/agnostics are not immune from those, and merely enjoy them, and laugh them off.

 

[Jazzer]

This one I find a little harder to stomach. That may have been the path to enlightment for you, but to me it smacks slightly of a sense of self-congratulatory superiority, whether you personally meant it that way or not. Since none of us can know for sure if there is a God, then isn't there an equal chance that either of us may be wrong?

We cannot know.
Not knowing - rejecting faiths - is fine.

 

[Jazzer]

@Lane Vengeful and jealous God?

Are you sure you read past the Old Testament?

Just for fun.......x

 

[GlennS]

But the big question surely is whether god is in actual fact a reality or not.

Not to me it isn't. The big question is summarized by Gandalf in Lord of the Rings. My favorite story...written by a devout catholic. Imagine that.

I strongly believe that even if there IS an afterlife that how we lead our lives on earth is of prime importance.

Another story with more overtly religious themes is Wim Wenders Wings of Desire. The afterlife, if there is one, is static. It has no sense of time. It has no change, no forward momentum. In Wings of Desire this is symbolized by it being in black and white.

So I think this idealization of the afterlife as a reward and fear of punishment is a mistake. You have to live for today.

 

[Jazzer]

@GlennS
"All we have to do is decide what to do with the time that is given to us."

'Just be kind.....xx.'

 

[Elmer B Fuddled]

@Jazzer
Looks like I opened a can of worms, sorry brother.
I believe what I believe. If those people who pray to some god to take away their tinnitus and pain, I'd like to ask, has your prayers been answered by your god... be honest.

 

[Mister Muso]

We cannot know.
Not knowing - rejecting faiths - is fine.

We cannot know many things. But we can believe. And we can choose to reject unbelief. That also has been more than fine for me.

I shall leave this thread now, as whilst it gives me an occasional chuckle it is clearly not meant for me.

 

[Jazzer]

@Lane - can I ask you something?
Going purely from memory now - when 'Agnostics Are Us' first reared it's ugly head I had the impression that you were quite a committed believer, judging by some of your posts.
Has that changed now?
Please let me know if this enquiry is a little insensitive so that I can delete it.
Dave x

 

[GregCA]

Since none of us can know for sure if there is a God, then isn't there an equal chance that either of us may be wrong?

Actually, no, there isn't. Mathematically speaking, the fact that you do not know what a given outcome is going to be does not mean it has equal chance.

Example: I do not know for sure whether I'm going to die from a car crash tomorrow or not. I'm pretty sure it's not 50/50 (thankfully!).

 

[Jazzer]

@Jazzer
Looks like I opened a can of worms, sorry brother.
I believe what I believe. If those people who pray to some god to take away their tinnitus and pain, I'd like to ask, has your prayers been answered by your god... be honest.

No sweat Elmer.
The title of this site lays out the direction pretty clearly.
Usually when religion is discussed across differing convictions it is the believers who get upset.
As long as people are respectful there shouldn't be any problem that I can see.

 

[Elmer B Fuddled]

Why do you read the bible so much, I asked the man in front of me in the post. He replied: Its because we are cramming for final exams.

 

[Mister Muso]

Actually, no, there isn't. Mathematically speaking, the fact that you do not know what a given outcome is going to be does not mean it has equal chance.

Example: I do not know for sure whether I'm going to die from a car crash tomorrow or not. I'm pretty sure it's not 50/50 (thankfully!).

I think you are comparing apples with oranges.

But sometimes you need more than mathematics in life.

 

[GregCA]

But sometimes you need more than mathematics in life.

Well, that is certainly one way to resolve the cognitive dissonance.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance#Belief_disconfirmation - quote:

The contradiction of a belief, ideal, or system of values causes cognitive dissonance that can be resolved by changing the challenged belief, yet, instead of effecting change, the resultant mental stress restores psychological consonance to the person by misperception, rejection, or refutation of the contradiction, seeking moral support from people who share the contradicted beliefs or acting to persuade other people that the contradiction is unreal.
​

 

[Lane]

@Lane - can I ask you something? Going purely from memory now - when 'Agnostics Are Us' first reared it's ugly head I had the impression that you were quite a committed believer, judging by some of your posts. -- Has that changed now?

Hey @Jazzer,

No, definitely not an insensitive question. But it does leave me in a bit of a dilemma. I'm generally fairly circumspect about some of my beliefs, as they involve definitively moving on from Christianity, the religion of my youth. And I don't want to unnecessarily offend those who are Christians and find great spiritual value in it. But I'm also a big believer in honesty, so it's kind of a delicate balancing act. That said, I'll just share a couple of things out of literally thousands that swayed me so strongly:

I. -- As a youth, perhaps around 8 years old, I was first introduced to the story of Abraham and Isaac. God apparently decided to "test" Abraham's faith by asking him to sacrifice his (only?) son Isaac. There was quite a vivid picture associated with this story, with an apparently unconscious Isaac awkwardly draped over a stone altar (looked painful), a menacing dark sky in the background, and a tortured, confused look on Abraham's face, as he stood poised over his son with a sharp dagger. Yikes! That's quite an image for a tender little 8-year-old's mind! It literally haunted me for weeks.

Some of my questions (as I recall): 1) How could a so-called benevolent god be so cruel? 2) Why is Abraham so gullible to think that a real god would request such a horrific thing? 3) Why are my parents sending me to a school that has teachers and ministers pedaling this kind of sh*t? (I mentioned in an earlier post I was a bit of a rebel). lol There were many other stories that left me in disbelief as well, but this is the one that probably really initiated my rebellion.

II. In my early twenties, I returned to the religion of my youth for a more thorough review. Had my particular rather gruesome Christian religion been an outlier from the many others? Did the others show a little more kindness and compassion than mine? --- (This church at one time refused to do a funeral for a young man who had committed suicide after getting into a fight at school. Where's the love and kindness in making such a harsh decision such as that? Talk about a lack of good judgment!).

As I talked to many from other denominations, I noticed they did tend to be gentler and kinder, but they also tended to have a few disconcerting things in common on some of their most important tenets as they applied to me: 1) I was a (pitiful) sinner; 2) The only way to get salvation was to--metaphorically speaking--get down on my knees and grovel before some almighty god for forgiveness; 3) I was able to be forgiven because god sacrificed his only begotten son on the cross for my sins (I had always been especially skeptical on that last one).

What went without saying was they would really like me to repent, and then do my part to fill their coffers as well. What I felt they were all (unabashedly) doing was using some pretty despicable fear tactics to unduly influence me. Instead of these kinds of messages leaving me cowering and desperately seeking some kind of "redemption", I instead became even more rebellious than ever. This time my distrust and disbelief was complete (or so I thought). -- (to be continued).

 

[Jazzer]

 

[Elmer B Fuddled]

Geez hate it when a good story just stops

 

[Jazzer]

Hey @Lane
- so pleased you came back.

I was raised in a Salvation Army home by a mother who was desperately mentally ill with deep depression, and a father whose only obsession was his business.
No bonding for me.
No loving arms.
A schizoid retreat into an existence of agony.
In my teens and my twenties I knew that I would have to study psychologists specialising in the field of infantile neglect and psychosis, in order to save my own life.
I felt lower than a piece of dog shit!!
I had based my value according to the total neglect I had suffered.
Guess what - I came to believe that I was actually a decent person, after all.
I had made it through.

Then when I started examining religion I quickly came to the conclusion that we are all cast in the roll of sinners, by the insidious concept of original sin.
Of course, religions have to insist that we are all sinners, otherwise there would be no incentive to be saved!
And if we needed any further impetus, our choice would result in, 'sitting on the right hand of god in heaven,' or Matthew's promise of being 'cast into lakes of fire.'
Blatant and obvious blackmail.

Apparently, Jesus died on the cross in recommence for our sins.
We are all guilty.
Now - personally speaking - I am not aware of ever having crucified anybody.
A thing like that would stuck in your mind.

I am bound to reject the whole 'kit and caboodle.'

In a nutshell......

 

[Jazzer]

Jesus preached kindness,
and you can't knock kindness.
So obviously the only way to live this life.

But then 'kindness' has been around for ever.
Kindness is endemic.
Even animals care for each other.
God / Jesus did not invent kindness.
They do not hold the monopoly on kindness.

Cut out the middle man and
- "Just Be Kind."

 

[Jazzer]

This time my distrust and disbelief was complete (or so I thought). -- (to be continued).

Don't forget we want part two Lane ??

 

[Mister Muso]

Well, that is certainly one way to resolve the cognitive dissonance.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance#Belief_disconfirmation - quote:

The contradiction of a belief, ideal, or system of values causes cognitive dissonance that can be resolved by changing the challenged belief, yet, instead of effecting change, the resultant mental stress restores psychological consonance to the person by misperception, rejection, or refutation of the contradiction, seeking moral support from people who share the contradicted beliefs or acting to persuade other people that the contradiction is unreal.
​

Nice attempt to make yourself look smarter than me, but you only covered half of my post...

Anyway I'll leave you agnostics to carry on congratulating each other about how much smarter and braver you are than us poor theists.

 

[Jazzer]

Nice attempt to make yourself look smarter than me, but you only covered half of my post...

Anyway I'll leave you agnostics to carry on congratulating each other about how much smarter and braver you are than us poor theists.

Nothing to do with being smarter.
Belief and/or disbelief is purely a matter of conviction - that's all.

 

[Lilah]

The existence of God and the character of God are two separate issues, and really should not be linked when discussing the existence of God. Just because one finds God to be malevolent, or if one is angry at God (which suggests a belief in God), does not mean God is nonexistent. Similarly if someone finds that God is detached/not involved does not necessarily mean that God is nonexistent.

Christians believe that God exists. Jesus is the best evidence. The evidence includes, 1) his resurrection on the third day, 2) his transfiguration, where he appeared next to Moses and Elijah, witnessed by disciples, 3) his miracles, 4) fulfilled prophecies of the Old Testament, and so forth. The Gospels were written based on personal experiences which Christians consider as reliable biographies of Jesus. (For some, that fact that the Gospels were written based on personal experiences, rather than dictated by God, may be a plus.) One example, the introduction to the Gospel according to Luke states, "1Many have undertaken to draw up an account of the things that have been fulfilled[a] among us, 2 just as they were handed down to us by those who from the first were eyewitnesses and servants of the word. 3 With this in mind, since I myself have carefully investigated everything from the beginning, I too decided to write an orderly account for you, most excellent Theophilus, 4 so that you may know the certainty of the things you have been taught." Here, the author is stating that there were many eyewitnesses and that he too "carefully investigated everything" so he can write an orderly account. The author was an investigator/researcher. By addressing to "most excellent Theophilus," it appears that the author is being paid to investigate or is investigating for a prominent individual/benefactor. Paul's letters are also remarkable knowing that he transformed from a violent/murderous zealous anti-Christian Pharisee to the greatest evangelist (huh?), thus speaking to the power of Jesus. For these reasons, and there are more, Christians take the information about Jesus as reliable.

Next, on the characteristics of God, no doubt there are some difficult passages in the Bible. I do not think we can fully understand the nature of God. How can God be all-loving and just (showing judgement/wrath) at the same time? An all-loving God is not just; a just God is not all-loving. However, God is both. One thing is clear - God demands our loyalty and obedience, however he will pursue us (Parable of the Lost Sheep) and is all-loving and forgiving. On God asking Abraham to sacrifice Isaac, God was testing Abraham's faith (he actually did not want the sacrifice). God even wanted to kill Moses for breaking the covenant of circumcision. Gabriel the angel made John the Baptist's father temporarily mute for presumably unbelief. God's character is both love and judgement/wrath; that's the reality.

We, and unfortunately also children, are not spared from suffering (primarily caused by "sin"/ wickedness and state of the world). Here is what Paul said of his sufferings: "I have worked much harder, been in prison more frequently, been flogged more severely, and been exposed to death again and again. 24Five times I received from the Jews the forty lashes minus one. 25Three times I was beaten with rods, once I was pelted with stones, three times I was shipwrecked, I spent a night and a day in the open sea, 26I have been constantly on the move. I have been in danger from rivers, in danger from bandits, in danger from my fellow Jews, in danger from Gentiles; in danger in the city, in danger in the country, in danger at sea; and in danger from false believers. 27I have labored and toiled and have often gone without sleep; I have known hunger and thirst and have often gone without food; I have been cold and naked. 28Besides everything else, I face daily the pressure of my concern for all the churches." God allows suffering for His glory, and we do not always know why we must suffer sometimes.

In sum, for Christians, the evidence for God is clear. On characteristics, no one can ever stop learning about God.

 

[Elmer B Fuddled]

The bible was written 700 years after this god supposedly did his stuff.