Agnostics “R” Us...

[Jazzer]

The existence of God and the character of God are two separate issues, and really should not be linked when discussing the existence of God. Just because one finds God to be malevolent, or if one is angry at God (which suggests a belief in God), does not mean God is nonexistent. Similarly if someone finds that God is detached/not involved does not necessarily mean that God is nonexistent.

Christians believe that God exists. Jesus is the best evidence. The evidence includes, 1) his resurrection on the third day, 2) his transfiguration, where he appeared next to Moses and Elijah, witnessed by disciples, 3) his miracles, 4) fulfilled prophecies of the Old Testament, and so forth. The Gospels were written based on personal experiences which Christians consider as reliable biographies of Jesus. (For some, that fact that the Gospels were written based on personal experiences, rather than dictated by God, may be a plus.) One example, the introduction to the Gospel according to Luke states, "1Many have undertaken to draw up an account of the things that have been fulfilled[a] among us, 2 just as they were handed down to us by those who from the first were eyewitnesses and servants of the word. 3 With this in mind, since I myself have carefully investigated everything from the beginning, I too decided to write an orderly account for you, most excellent Theophilus, 4 so that you may know the certainty of the things you have been taught." Here, the author is stating that there were many eyewitnesses and that he too "carefully investigated everything" so he can write an orderly account. The author was an investigator/researcher. By addressing to "most excellent Theophilus," it appears that the author is being paid to investigate or is investigating for a prominent individual/benefactor. Paul's letters are also remarkable knowing that he transformed from a violent/murderous zealous anti-Christian Pharisee to the greatest evangelist (huh?), thus speaking to the power of Jesus. For these reasons, and there are more, Christians take the information about Jesus as reliable.

Next, on the characteristics of God, no doubt there are some difficult passages in the Bible. I do not think we can fully understand the nature of God. How can God be all-loving and just (showing judgement/wrath) at the same time? An all-loving God is not just; a just God is not all-loving. However, God is both. One thing is clear - God demands our loyalty and obedience, however he will pursue us (Parable of the Lost Sheep) and is all-loving and forgiving. On God asking Abraham to sacrifice Isaac, God was testing Abraham's faith (he actually did not want the sacrifice). God even wanted to kill Moses for breaking the covenant of circumcision. Gabriel the angel made John the Baptist's father temporarily mute for presumably unbelief. God's character is both love and judgement/wrath; that's the reality.

We, and unfortunately also children, are not spared from suffering (primarily caused by "sin"/ wickedness and state of the world). Here is what Paul said of his sufferings: "I have worked much harder, been in prison more frequently, been flogged more severely, and been exposed to death again and again. 24Five times I received from the Jews the forty lashes minus one. 25Three times I was beaten with rods, once I was pelted with stones, three times I was shipwrecked, I spent a night and a day in the open sea, 26I have been constantly on the move. I have been in danger from rivers, in danger from bandits, in danger from my fellow Jews, in danger from Gentiles; in danger in the city, in danger in the country, in danger at sea; and in danger from false believers. 27I have labored and toiled and have often gone without sleep; I have known hunger and thirst and have often gone without food; I have been cold and naked. 28Besides everything else, I face daily the pressure of my concern for all the churches." God allows suffering for His glory, and we do not always know why we must suffer sometimes.

In sum, for Christians, the evidence for God is clear. On characteristics, no one can ever stop learning about God.

Firstly, thank you for taking the time to be so thorough in your response.

I am a sceptic - believing that only the limited resources of my own mind can help me to navigate a way though this maze of life.
It is also crucial to me that my mind is not contaminated by the fear that the bible insists on propagating throughout both it's testaments.
To me, the concept of original sin is both ridiculous and vile - and there to make grovelling terrorised sinners of us all.
I don't buy it - but then I am a failure of religious indoctrination.
Making sense of anything means questioning everything.
As to the eye witness accounts of the gospellers,
scholars believe that the gospels were written between 66 AD and 110 AD, and could not therefore have been written by the witnesses themselves, who would most likely have been dead by then
Therefore, the history of Jesus must have been an oral history only until that time.
One thing is certain - they were not written by men named Matthew Mark Luke and John.
Hardly Hebrew names.

The bible has been written, re-written, edited, re-edited countless times, and as such is a doctored tome whoever you choose to look at it.

I would be interested to know of your own religious history - your early influences - do you regard your early religious education as an attempt at indoctrination.
My indoctrination lasted from birth to age 18.

Thank you again for your time and scholarly appraisal.
Despite my own views - I do appreciate it.

 

[Lane]

(continued from THIS POST)

Having become clear Christianity had nothing to offer me, I felt a certain sense of freedom, but I felt a bit of a sense of disappointment as well. I'd had a (slim) hope I would find something I'd not been able to find in my youth, but I didn't. What had also become increasingly clear to me was that my life had become difficult in a number of ways, and I felt a certain sense of urgency to find a way to restore some of the rhythm and harmony I'd previously known. In the process, I found myself yearning for "truth" as well (not god), though I didn't know exactly why that was, or what truth was. But I felt pretty confident I'd recognize it if/when I found it. -- Little did I know at the time what the physically-based aspect (catalyst) of this spiritual quest was.

The catalyst was a serious head injury/whiplash at age of 15, at which time I experienced a major dislocation of my atlas (upper most cervical vertebra). This vertebra is quite large, and has a large hole in the center through which the brainstem and the major cranial nerves of the body exit the brain (watch first few seconds of the video for great visual of the Atlas). When this vertabra got "whacked" out of its original position, it "crimped" my brainstem and cranial nerves, leading to the genesis of my journey with Myalgic Encephalomyelitis/Chronic Fatigue Syndrome (ME/CFS). [ME refers to chronic inflammation of the brain and spinal cord.] It caused me to almost daily feeling my head was locked in some kind of invisible vice grip, creating a chronic sense of pressure in my head. This in turn frequently left me to feeling I was walking around in a kind of perpetual daze, which in the ME/CFS community is often referred to as "brainfog" (which really doesn't do it justice),

This all led to major struggles with virtually everything in my life, from overall health, having chronic headaches, low (to zero) energy, difficulty thinking and focusing, shutdown of endocrine system, impairment of my autonomic nervous system, and so much more, all of which got continually worse as the years went by. It finally led to total disability and mostly bedbound by age 42. This was all very disconcerting (to say the least), especially since I'd always been very good at athletics, and scored in the highest percentiles in all my grades (until the accident). I made a number of concerted efforts to "get back into shape", but I would invariably end up worse off for my efforts.

I discovered exercise of just about any kind (including mental) would almost always exacerbate my symptoms. I later learned this was a result of "cranial instability" resulting in worsening brainstem compression, though doctors at the time couldn't find anything wrong. Unsurprisingly, this began my lifelong skepticism of conventional health care--which only deepened as the years went by. At the time however, I did begin to wonder whether my struggles might be some sort of psychological or "spiritual problem". Many doctors (and some friends) said or inferred the same (when you can't figure something out, blame the patient). At a very deep level however, I doubted that was the case, but felt I should pursue that avenue just in case.

So with a certain sense of urgency, I did follow up on the possibility it was a "spiritual problem". After I determined western religion didn't "suit" me, I decided to look toward eastern religions to see if they had anything to offer. I became more familiar with terms and phrasings like karma, reincarnation, "god is one", "god is love", nowness, or "living in the now", the "Void", and on and on. I initially found much of it interesting, even intriguing, though often a little too uncomfortably bizarre. After a relatively short while however, I became increasingly frustrated. I consistently felt the explanations of "life" and "truth" were never very good (or satisfying), or at very minimum-incomplete. It seemed they were sincerely trying to share a certain philosophy, but it also seemed they would almost always come up way short on the details.

For instance, if there is karma and reincarnation, then why is that the case? In short, to what end? I wasn't finding the clarity (or the love) I was looking for, and would invariably end up feeling a sense of exasperation at what felt like them "talking in circles". -- I was also underwhelmed by some of the pictures of "large bellied" guys lazily sitting in the lotus position, and some of the other "bizarre" pictures coming out of those religions. In addition, it all felt sort of--well--philosophical. I was more interested in getting a deeper sense of whether we (as Soul) continue to live after this lifetime. More importantly, I was interested in finding a sense of love and purpose (and rhythm and harmony) in this lifetime. -- I felt I was reaching a dead end, but then a good friend began to tell me about another "Eastern" practice called Transcendental Meditation (TM). Perhaps this would be more "experiential", more along the lines of "truth" I was looking for.

After a few discussions on the benefits of TM, I took the plunge, 20 minutes per day, first thing in the morning. After a few days, I definitely noticed I felt a little more peaceful, and a little more at peace with the world--not too bad. I also kind of liked the idea that there was no consideration given as to whether or not there was a god. However, I thought perhaps with a little more time, I might be on my way to finding some kind of "enlightenment"

or whatever I was looking for (which I really wasn't too sure of at the time). Lo and behold, it didn't take me long to discover I wasn't on my way. As I went into week 2, I noticed I would wake up in the morning feeling pretty good, ready to get started on my day. Then I'd remember I needed to do my TM.

Having a fairly disciplined nature, I would always take the time to do it, even though I increasingly kind of didn't want to. I then began to notice my overall sense of "peacefulness" turn toward a sense of lethergy. By week 3, this intensified, until I finally reached the point where I felt almost "lifeless" as I went through my days, and eventually absolutely did not want to sit down for those 20-minute sessions anymore. So I didn't--I completely gave it up. -- I felt I learned a valuable lessen from this experience however; that meditation is probably not for everybody, or at the least, needs to be modified to a person's own unique character and makeup. In other words, "spiritual" practices of any kind should comport to our individual needs, not the other way around. -- Now what? -- (to be continued)

BTW @Jazzer, I do intend to get around to answering your question about where I'm at on the continuum of "believer/agnostic/athiest". Stay tuned for coming attractions!

 

[Jazzer]

(continued from THIS POST)

Having become clear Christianity had nothing to offer me, I felt a certain sense of freedom, but I felt a bit of a sense of disappointment as well. I'd had a (slim) hope I would find something I'd not been able to find in my youth, but I didn't. What had also become increasingly clear to me was that my life had become difficult in a number of ways, and I felt a certain sense of urgency to find a way to restore some of the rhythm and harmony I'd previously known. In the process, I found myself yearning for "truth" as well (not god), though I didn't know exactly why that was, or what truth was. But I felt pretty confident I'd recognize it if/when I found it. -- Little did I know at the time what the physically-based aspect (catalyst) of this spiritual quest was.

The catalyst was a serious head injury/whiplash at age of 15, at which time I experienced a major dislocation of my atlas (upper most cervical vertebra). This vertebra is quite large, and has a large hole in the center through which the brainstem and the major cranial nerves of the body exit the brain (watch first few seconds of the video for great visual of the Atlas). When this vertabra got "whacked" out of its original position, it "crimped" my brainstem and cranial nerves, leading to the genesis of my journey with Myalgic Encephalomyelitis/Chronic Fatigue Syndrome (ME/CFS). [ME refers to chronic inflammation of the brain and spinal cord.] It caused me to almost daily feeling my head was locked in some kind of invisible vice grip, creating a chronic sense of pressure in my head. This in turn frequently left me to feeling I was walking around in a kind of perpetual daze, which in the ME/CFS community is often referred to as "brainfog" (which really doesn't do it justice),

This all led to major struggles with virtually everything in my life, from overall health, having chronic headaches, low (to zero) energy, difficulty thinking and focusing, shutdown of endocrine system, impairment of my autonomic nervous system, and so much more, all of which got continually worse as the years went by. It finally led to total disability and mostly bedbound by age 42. This was all very disconcerting (to say the least), especially since I'd always been very good at athletics, and scored in the highest percentiles in all my grades (until the accident). I made a number of concerted efforts to "get back into shape", but I would invariably end up worse off for my efforts.

I discovered exercise of just about any kind (including mental) would almost always exacerbate my symptoms. I later learned this was a result of "cranial instability" resulting in worsening brainstem compression, though doctors at the time couldn't find anything wrong. Unsurprisingly, this began my lifelong skepticism of conventional health care--which only deepened as the years went by. At the time however, I did begin to wonder whether my struggles might be some sort of psychological or "spiritual problem". Many doctors (and some friends) said or inferred the same (when you can't figure something out, blame the patient). At a very deep level however, I doubted that was the case, but felt I should pursue that avenue just in case.

So with a certain sense of urgency, I did follow up on the possibility it was a "spiritual problem". After I determined western religion didn't "suit" me, I decided to look toward eastern religions to see if they had anything to offer. I became more familiar with terms and phrasings like karma, reincarnation, "god is one", "god is love", nowness, or "living in the now", the "Void", and on and on. I initially found much of it interesting, even intriguing, though often a little too uncomfortably bizarre. After a relatively short while however, I became increasingly frustrated. I consistently felt the explanations of "life" and "truth" were never very good (or satisfying), or at very minimum-incomplete. It seemed they were sincerely trying to share a certain philosophy, but it also seemed they would almost always come up way short on the details.

For instance, if there is karma and reincarnation, then why is that the case? In short, to what end? I wasn't finding the clarity (or the love) I was looking for, and would invariably end up feeling a sense of exasperation at what felt like them "talking in circles". -- I was also underwhelmed by some of the pictures of "large bellied" guys lazily sitting in the lotus position, and some of the other "bizarre" pictures coming out of those religions. In addition, it all felt sort of--well--philosophical. I was more interested in getting a deeper sense of whether we (as Soul) continue to live after this lifetime. More importantly, I was interested in finding a sense of love and purpose (and rhythm and harmony) in this lifetime. -- I felt I was reaching a dead end, but then a good friend began to tell me about another "Eastern" practice called Transcendental Meditation (TM). Perhaps this would be more "experiential", more along the lines of "truth" I was looking for.

After a few discussions on the benefits of TM, I took the plunge, 20 minutes per day, first thing in the morning. After a few days, I definitely noticed I felt a little more peaceful, and a little more at peace with the world--not too bad. I also kind of liked the idea that there was no consideration given as to whether or not there was a god. However, I thought perhaps with a little more time, I might be on my way to finding some kind of "enlightenment" View attachment 37218 or whatever I was looking for (which I really wasn't too sure of at the time). Lo and behold, it didn't take me long to discover I wasn't on my way. As I went into week 2, I noticed I would wake up in the morning feeling pretty good, ready to get started on my day. Then I'd remember I needed to do my TM.

Having a fairly disciplined nature, I would always take the time to do it, even though I increasingly kind of didn't want to. I then began to notice my overall sense of "peacefulness" turn toward a sense of lethergy. By week 3, this intensified, until I finally reached the point where I felt almost "lifeless" as I went through my days, and eventually absolutely did not want to sit down for those 20-minute sessions anymore. So I didn't--I completely gave it up. -- I felt I learned a valuable lessen from this experience however; that meditation is probably not for everybody, or at the least, needs to be modified to a person's own unique character and makeup. In other words, "spiritual" practices of any kind should comport to our individual needs, not the other way around. -- Now what? -- (to be continued)

BTW @Jazzer, I do intend to get around to answering your question about where I'm at on the continuum of "believer/agnostic/athiest". Stay tuned for coming attractions! View attachment 37217

My dear Lane - your story intrigues me.
You see - I have always felt spiritually alone in this world, because my upbringing was so desolate and unlike anybody else's.

I remember my GP asking me what was wrong with me.
I remember confiding that I grew up in a desert.
He said "what do you mean - like Saudi Arabia ??"

My wife - who is a most beautiful person - is a committed Christian, so she doesn't understand my obvious disconnect to 'the almighty.'
However there is no disconnect from my search for truth.
Don't worry about me going anywhere - I have total faith in your integrity
- 'you're a 'real one brother.'

 

[Mister Muso]

Nothing to do with being smarter.

Belief and/or disbelief is purely a matter of conviction - that's all.

Thank you for saying that, @Jazzer Your words here are always thoughtful and kind.

My previous post may have been a little on the tetchy side, so allow me to leave you with the following thought.

Clearly there are kind people who are not religious. And sadly there are religious people who are not kind.

Yet no one is guaranteed a life free from trouble. The best of all possible worlds? Maybe. Who can tell?

Poor old Moses may have created an angry, jealous God rather too much in his own image. Later writers saw a God of grace and forgiveness emerge; whilst at the same time churches have put obstacles in the way of genuine seekers of enlightenment. But if God is real, it could well be that, in the final analysis, he is more kind than any of us dared to imagine.

 

[Jazzer]

But if God is real, it could well be that, in the final analysis, he is more kind than any of us dared to imagine.

MM - you have just made a comment that truly appeals to me.…who knows.....nice one xx

 

[Jazzer]

My dear @Lane
I am still staying tuned
for coming attractions......x
(jest sayin' buddy - but no rush)
Dave x

 

[Bill Bauer]

I wish people were to write about the Modern Religion making the world a horrible place to live. And I am not talking about Christianity or even Marxism. In the modern day we have the equivalent of priests, the equivalent of heretics, the equivalent of Satan, and a bunch of slogans that people are required to believe in without any proof.

 

[Jazzer]

I wish people were to write about the Modern Religion making the world a horrible place to live. And I am not talking about Christianity or even Marxism. In the modern day we have the equivalent of priests, the equivalent of heretics, the equivalent of Satan, and a bunch of slogans that people are required to believe in without any proof.

You didn't mention what this Modern religion is Bill.
I guess you are referring to rampant capitalism?

 

[Elmer B Fuddled]

And poor old Noah resting on a rock, when the day darkened. From behind him a voice came forward,"Noah, go build me an ark."
"Who said that, the fucks an ark?"
"I said it," big guy replied.
"Who are you and what's an ark, I don't even own a hammer, and how the hell am I going to build anything, we are sitting in the middle of a dessert."
"Just go build the damn thing you got 40 days, to build it, and collect 4 pairs of every animal, insect, on this earth, oh and catch 4,000 house flies, 2,000 mosquitoes, heres the damn plans, I wrote em on a pig skin." Now get yourself, and them 2 drunken boys, on to the forest and get the damn thing built I'm going to flood the earth, rid the place of fighting, greedy non believers straighten this place up."
To be continued......

 

[Bill Bauer]

You didn't mention what this Modern religion is Bill.
I guess you are referring to rampant capitalism?

No, that's not what I was talking about. Capitalism actually works and is producing results that are superior to other systems. Those results can be measured in an objective way, so there is no role for faith. Your answer reveals that you have been brainwashed by your priests.

I would rather not describe the Modern/State Religion that I am talking about. It would be like being a person questioning the goodness of Christianity during the time of the Inquisition. (By the way, the fact that you can have this thread proves that Christianity is no longer the State Religion.) I don't think there is a Need to explain it, as all of us (including those Spaniards hundreds of years ago) know what the State Religion is.

 

[Jazzer]

No, that's not what I was talking about. Capitalism actually works and is producing results that are superior to other systems. Those results can be measured in an objective way, so there is no role for faith. Your answer reveals that you have been brainwashed by your priests.

I would rather not describe the Modern/State Religion that I am talking about. It would be like being a person questioning the goodness of Christianity during the time of the Inquisition. (By the way, the fact that you can have this thread proves that Christianity is no longer the State Religion.) I don't think there is a Need to explain it, as all of us (including those Spaniards hundreds of years ago) know what the State Religion is.

Okay Bill.
I have never heard of the expression 'the modern state religion.'
My question was genuine and got me nowhere.
As for your comment 'you have been brainwashed by your priests,' - I have never adhered to any religion, and have had absolutely no contact with any member of the priesthood.
Presumably you have a rough idea what you are talking about - but I don't.

 

[Lane]

Presumably you have a rough idea what you are talking about - but I don't.

Thanks @Jazzer, my first good belly laugh of the day!

 

[Bill Bauer]

I have never adhered to any religion, and have had absolutely no contact with any member of the priesthood.

I used the term "priests" figuratively, to refer to the people who tell you what to believe. But who knows, perhaps you weren't brainwashed and this is what you believe. In that case, consider yourself to be fortunate. It must feel better to live in a state with the state religion aligning with your actual beliefs compared with living in a state where your beliefs are considered to be blasphemy.

Presumably you have a rough idea what you are talking about - but I don't.

To learn the tenets of the State Religion, read any newspaper or magazine or watch any TV program (BBC, Hollywood, movies, historical documentaries, the news, nature documentaries, etc.).

 

[Jazzer]

I used the term "priests" figuratively, to refer to the people who tell you what to believe. But who knows, perhaps you weren't brainwashed and this is what you believe. In that case, consider yourself to be fortunate. It must feel better to live in a state with the state religion aligning with your actual beliefs compared with living in a state where your beliefs are considered to be blasphemy.

To learn the tenets of the State Religion, read any newspaper or magazine or watch any TV program (BBC, Hollywood, movies, historical documentaries, the news, nature documentaries, etc.).

Nobody will ever be able to talk me into or out of any religious belief.
Ultimately the only judgement I trust is my own.

 

[Bill Bauer]

Nobody will ever be able to talk me into or out of any religious belief.
Ultimately the only judgement I trust is my own.

Religions take all sort of flavours - not all of them have to do with the creation of the universe. What they all have in common is the requirement that one doesn't use logic/evidence to evaluate the religion's tenets, and that one has faith in the tenets.

 

[Jazzer]

Religions take all sort of flavours - not all of them have to do with the creation of the universe. What they all have in common is the requirement that one doesn't use logic/evidence to evaluate the religion's tenets, and that one has faith in the tenets.

There is no evidence, let alone proof, of god.
All I can see is a 'historic' book of texts, with no genuine provenance, and a church full of believers, believing through faith.

 

[Star64]

 

[Halsy]

Yeah, I'm agnostic. Is there a god(s)? Possibly, but in the same way we say 'Anything is possible' which means it's possible but very unlikely. Reincarnation exists however - though likely not as the Hindus imagine it. All your 'star stuff' just gets reused in other things. The Universe abhors waste. In your next life you might be a chair. Which might not be too bad depending on who's sitting on you.

Still, there are some arguments for the soul. Example: The atoms you start off with aren't the same ones you end with. Over the course of an average life time they're entirely replaced about six times over - yet, you remain that unique little snowflake that you are that's so special and everyone wants to cuddle with.

I kind of like what Picard had to say about death in TNGs "Where Silence Has Lease"

DATA: What is death?

PICARD: Oh, is that all? Well, Data, you're asking probably the most difficult of all questions. Some see it as a changing into an indestructible form, forever unchanging. They believe that the purpose of the entire universe is to then maintain that form in an Earth-like garden which will give delight and pleasure through all eternity. On the other hand, there are those who hold to the idea of our blinking into nothingness, with all our experiences, hopes and dreams merely a delusion.

DATA: Which do you believe, sir?

PICARD: Considering the marvellous complexity of our universe, its clockwork perfection, its balances of this against that, matter, energy, gravitation, time, dimension, I believe that our existence must be more than either of these philosophies. That what we are goes beyond Euclidian and other practical measuring systems and that our existence is part of a reality beyond what we understand now as reality.


Eh, it's as good a theory as anything else.

I really don't care what the hell anyone believes so long as they're not pushy about it. Just keep it to yourself unless someone asks. Once you start trying to dictate how everyone else should live than we have a problem.

 

[Luman]

I really don't care what the hell anyone believes so long as they're not pushy about it. Just keep it to yourself unless someone asks. Once you start trying to dictate how everyone else should live than we have a problem.

I agree, and religion and government do not mix. Unfortunately, this idea is still not accepted in a number of places in the world, in this year of our Flying Spaghetti Monster, 2020.

 

[Contrast]

God, religion, and dogma's aside. I don't believe in any religion or dogmatic world view. But I want to know...

Do humans and animals have agency of their own? Defined as libertarian free will?

Or is the Universe determined or true randomness as the current model of atheistic/materialism implies? If the current model of materialism is true, free will even in the slightest degree would be impossible because an animal's brain matter cannot manipulate space and time. That would make consciousness an illusionary movie that serves no function in nature. Biology would have have went out of it's way to evolve a useless mechanism that gives us an extreme illusion. This shitpost would have been pre-destined 13.8 billion years ago during the moment of the big bang due to the equations of every particle in the Universe.

What are your guys thoughts on the idea that our brains makes use of unknown effects in quantum mechanics to allows us to have conscious agency, this would give us free will through retrocasuality (backwards time) and other weird quantum shit that is not yet scientifically explainable. It can help defend why consciousness exist in the first place instead of calling it an useless illusion yet Dan Dennete, Sam Harris, and Richard Dawkins purpose..

I made a post about retrocasuality in consciousness here.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retrocausality#Quantum_physics
https://www.tinnitustalk.com/threads/my-posting-place.23694/page-491#post-514967

I would think there are far more atheists

I do not know if a God exist but certainly not the Christian/Muslim one or a personal God one prays too. But if lay people knew that Dawkins definition of atheism implies strict determinism, infinite universes and randomness for every scientific explanation. I don't think they would keep holding that view. I am leaning more to the idea of panprotopsychism (everything has proto-subjective experience), the idea that every particle has a super tiny fundamental bit of consciousness. As well as the idea of animals having limited degrees of free will.

 

[Contrast]

Atheism needs to be defined better. Denying all the worlds religions as nonsense makes me an atheist by that definition, but calling consciousness an illusion, ignoring creativity in nature, and believing in infinite universes to explain the fine tuning in ours is the reductionist materialist definition of atheism.


Most people don't give the definition of atheism a second thought. When they should. Dawkins, Denette, Blackmore and Harris have given horrible unsatisfactory explanations for what consciousness is. Non of them believe we have the slightest degree of free will because monkey brain matter cannot manipulate space-time. Being critical of current materalistic science does not put me in the same boat as Christians. I cannot imagine biological evolution going out it's way to give us an illusion of agency. I believe quantum physics and consciousness (defined as subjective experience) share a connection.

 

[Tweedleman]

What's always amused me is not that people believe in the existence god, it's their interpretation of him. That he's on the good end of the moral compass. That he loves us. The nature of god.

If there is a god, and I think there very well could be a creator responsible, what makes him a loving god? He might have created us, but we are the ones supposing that he loves us. We ascribe that meaning and value to our lives through our own narcissism and biological instinct of self importance.

If there is a god, I think it's far more apparent that he's indifferent to us. We are ultimately just a more complex assembly of particles in constant flux with the rest of the junk in this universe. Within our little sandbox we suffer and die in vain. Perhaps he watches, perhaps not.

IMO the nature of god is indifference. We are part of a science project that he has long since abandoned.

 

[Luman]

The definition of an Atheist is very simple, it means without theism. Atheists do not believe that any god or gods have ever, at any time in history, communicated with man. From this we can conclude with reasonable certainty, that bibles and writings in books and manuscripts which claim to have been divinely inspired, are written by men, and men alone. There have never been any "special" people, who can communicate with celestial beings and/or a supernatural creator(s).

 

[Zugzug]

What's always amused me is not that people believe in the existence god, it's their interpretation of him. That he's on the good end of the moral compass. That he loves us. The nature of god.

If there is a god, and I think there very well could be a creator responsible, what makes him a loving god? He might have created us, but we are the ones supposing that he loves us. We ascribe that meaning and value to our lives through our own narcissism and biological instinct of self importance.

If there is a god, I think it's far more apparent that he's indifferent to us. We are ultimately just a more complex assembly of particles in constant flux with the rest of the junk in this universe. Within our little sandbox we suffer and die in vain. Perhaps he watches, perhaps not.

IMO the nature of god is indifference. We are part of a science project that he has long since abandoned.

If God intervenes, he is necessarily helping one person at the expense of another. For example, if I prayed and my condition got better, that's one less data point to motivate further research.

Also, the idea that he needs to be prayed to in order to be nice to you is just human narcissism in plain sight. A perfect being cannot intervene. I too, agree that there could be a God, but he sure as hell (no pun intended) doesn't reward morality.

Religious people never keep score correctly with God. If he helps, it's because he was obviously communicated with. If he doesn't help, it's because we're too inferior to understand his message. Sigh.

I find dogmatic atheists to be almost as bad. Honestly, I'm surprised there aren't more agnostics.

 

[Tweedleman]

If God intervenes, he is necessarily helping one person at the expense of another. For example, if I prayed and my condition got better, that's one less data point to motivate further research.

That's actually the best way of rationalizing the absurdity of our particular suffering that I've seen yet. I agree, and at least we have this digital platform to inscribe data and hopefully effect research. I suppose that's our one privilege, that we aren't bleeding out slowly in complete obscurity. A lot of human suffering hasn't been able to contribute to progress or in any meaningful way, rendering it pretty absurd.

 

[Contrast]

You normies are asking the wrong questions. You are starting with "God" and "Magic/Prayer" "or why am I suffering?" hurr durr I'm mad because Jesus won't save me!!!...when you should be looking at the Universe technically. Free of emotion. There is one mysterious thing that fucks with the logic of mainstream science, that we KNOW EXIST all too well.

Consciousness

I find an extremely dogmatic to call consciousness a useless illusion, when it's part of our everything. I never knew mainstream science denied the existence of conscious agency until a few months ago. I obviously did this to figure out rather or not there is life after (which I am still very skeptical of). Regardless of an afterlife/reincarnation which can be heavily scrutinized. Free will is something lay people and myself take for strong granted but known physics can't explain it! I was literally fucking shocked when I learned all the big name scientist denied the existence of even the most limited degree of free will. Einstein's theories are deterministic and quantum randomness won't give you free will, unless there's an unknown mechanism waiting to be discovered that gives random order. If Consciousness has anything to do with it, Thats a clue! That's why I insist more studies like Dean Radin's backwards time effect in the human nervous system be done. There is not enough research grr....
https://www.quantumconsciousness.org/content/quantum-mind-time-flies-backwards

I believe consciousness is occurring inside the brain (not dualism), but whatever it is doing is not just computational and algorithmic. I believe we do have a limited degree of free will to write the future and time can be manipulated by consciousness.Therefore consciousness must be able to manipulate space-time. I seriously wish someone would have told me years ago atheist believed in a deterministic universe. I think one day science will show quantum effects in the human/animal brain sending information backwards in time. So they can act freely. You can still be an atheist and believe consciousness/mental aspects of particles is fundamental. It's called panpsychism.

 

[Contrast]

Just by looking at this thread I can tell it's not a serious thread about the nature of reality, just a place to bash Christians. I think normies confuse making fun of Christians with understanding the nature of reality. We don't understand the nature of reality and the current definition of materialism is not working.

 

[Jazzer]

I'm surprised there aren't more agnostics.

Agnosticism can be the only logical position.
Nobody knows - nor can know - not even Christians, who all think they know.
Religion is always fear driven.

 

[Elmer B Fuddled]

And the man said, "I give you faith, you're the ones who turned it to religion."

 

[PhoenixAcademy]

I wish people were to write about the Modern Religion making the world a horrible place to live. And I am not talking about Christianity or even Marxism. In the modern day we have the equivalent of priests, the equivalent of heretics, the equivalent of Satan, and a bunch of slogans that people are required to believe in without any proof.

Here you are again with your laser like analysis.

I have noticed that the world of psychedelic drugs and drugs in general has become like a religion with its own set of priests (drug dealers, drug music scene lords like the Grateful Dead, STS9, Widespread Panic), prophets (Terrence McKenna, Timothy Leary), and gods (Albert Hoffman, Alexander Shulgin).

You could say the same about all kinds of little spheres of human activity. Music, skateboarding, politics, Youtube, pornography, so-called science, Harry Potter, whatever..... You could say they are all just different idols for the human to gravitate his or her or his/her *soul* or *energy* towards. I personally find the Muslim and Christian bashing to be very peculiar because the same type of attitude towards other religions like Hinduism, Buddhism, Lubavich Chabadism, etc do not receive the same type of scrutiny. It is like the focus on Christianity is a type of social engineering towards the creation of a secular type of civic non-religion that is also very religious at its core and the focus on Islam is like a way to promote the ongoing presence of European and American soldiers in the Middle East.

Aw man, I just spent way too much time typing that.