Agnostics “R” Us...

All religion is superstition and no more real than mythology, fortune-telling, astrology, witchcraft, or voodoo.
I always find the most superstitious people tend to be agnostic as to any higher power, so they are more likely to put their faith in anything and everything else like astrology and the like. Of course you may classify belief in a God along with those other beliefs it helps you. When I first became a Christian, I took great delight in walking under ladders, etc., to the confusion of those around. I've known atheists that will do the same. Something we have in common!
The charlatans that represent themselves as "special", and/or in possession of supernatural powers or the ability to communicate with a god or gods, are liars and frauds. This includes all priests, rabbis, mullahs, swamis, clairvoyants, various "holy" people, gurus, faith healers, ministers, monks, Dalai lamas, and other clergies.
You seem angry. I guess one of those types hurt you or someone you care about. I'm sorry that happened. There are many phoneys out there. Even among the well-intentioned ones, people mess up, that's the whole point of religion, or it should be. It shouldn't be about putting other people down, it should be about lifting each other up.
Thus far in history, not a single alleged supernatural ability or phenomenon has ever passed scientific scrutiny.
Maybe, most accounts are anecdotal at best, but I've heard such accounts from people I respect and trust. And the power of belief is a recognised factor for healing in medicine.

Faith Healing Shouldn't Work, But It Does
 
If "His Holiness" is a "simple monk", why does it cost $400 to sit in the audience of one of his talks?

If he never says anything that you disagree with, perhaps he's only saying things that virtually everybody agrees with. What then, is the point of his lectures and such?

If his only religion is kindness, why does he consider himself to be worthy of the title "His Holiness", "Your Holiness", etc.?

Tibetan Buddhists monks taught their subjects that each Dalai Lama is a reincarnation of a god known as Avalokiteshvara. If the Dalai Lama is indeed a kind, intelligent man, would it not be best if he disavowed such superstition and ignorance, rather than claiming that he doesn't know whether it is true that he is a god? He has avoided the truth his entire life since the monks who ran Tibet took him from his parents. The Tibetan Buddhist clergymen raised him under highly privileged conditions as the 14th Dalai Lama. His predecessors, and him as well if the Chinese had not intervened, were leaders of regimes that are known for having imposed tremendous oppression, ignorance, extreme injustices, abject poverty, lack of medicine or science, cruelty, mutilation, amputations, executions, short life spans, slave trading, and other horrors on the people of Tibet.

From Sept 20, 2019, Daily Mail:

EXCLUSIVE: Dalai Lama was paid $1 MILLION to endorse women-branding 'sex cult' after secret deal between Buddhist's celibate U.S. emissary and his Seagram billionaire 'lover'
  • Buddhist leader the Dalai Lama was linked to NXIVM, the controversial self-help organization described by former members as a 'sex cult'
  • He spoke at an event in Albany, New York, in 2009 and put a Tibetan scarf round the neck of its founder Keith Raniere in what was said to be a 'victory' for NXIVM
  • DailyMail.com can disclose the Dalai Lama was given $1 million to spend on causes he backs in return for attending the function
  • The deal to get him to go was made by Sara Bronfman, a billionaire heiress to the Seagram fortune, and Lama Tenzin Dhonden, head of the Dalal Lama's U.S trust
  • But Bronfman and Lama Tenzin face claims they were lovers, even though the Buddhist cleric took a vow of chastity
  • NVIVM hailed the Dalai Lama's visit but it is now being hit by claims founder Raniere runs it as a sex cult with a 'harem' of women
  • The women are branded, call him 'Vanguard' and believe that sleeping with Raniere, 57, will heal them, according to claims made about NXIVM
  • Raniere denies it is a sex cult but neither NXIVM or the Dalai Lama's office addressed the latest allegations
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5230067/Dalai-Lamas-1-MILLION-women-branding-sex-cult.html

This is the cult that "His Holiness" was paid ONE MILLION DOLLARS to endorse.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NXIVM
All interesting information. None of it is something that is new to me though.

This is an interesting read of an interview with the Dalai Lama. Keep in mind that it is on his website and they had plenty of time to parse the responses:

https://www.dalailama.com/the-dalai-lama/biography-and-daily-life/questions-answers

What is interesting to me about reading this interview is how deeply programmed the Dalai Lama was as a child. He was discovered by the monks charged with finding the new Dalai Lama at age 2 and by age 4 he was installed as the Dalai Lama. Thus from age 2 the programming began and by age 4 he had been given by his parents to the lamas and under the programming of the religious authorities 24/7. One can maybe find why the Dalai Lama is the way he is from that level of immersion in religious programming. One might even see how his life experience since leaving Tibet in exile at age 24 thus forced him to take charge of his life and face a reality in the outside world that might have produced what I would say is quite a liberal outlook compared to what his programming was and what other religious leaders believe and say today.

On the Daily Mail: In the USA one has to be very careful on what sources one is reading to understand their biases (I have read that is true in the UK as well). We in the USA have right wing and left wing publications/TV networks and Radio networks not to mention the Internet, that are close to propaganda machines that are believed by the millions. The New York Times (left of center) and the Wall Street Journal (right of center) both are now exhibiting bias in their news stories (not just on their editorial pages and in opinion pieces) regularly which was not something one would see in the past. As a result I always check on the bias of a publication and consider that in their writing. I use this site to check on their bias rating on publications although there are others:

https://mediabiasfactcheck.com:

Here is what they say about the Daily Mail:

"A questionable source exhibits one or more of the following: extreme bias, consistent promotion of propaganda/conspiracies, poor or no sourcing to credible information, a complete lack of transparency, and/or is fake news. Fake News is the deliberate attempt to publish hoaxes and/or disinformation for profit or influence. Sources listed in the Questionable Category may be very untrustworthy and should be fact-checked on a per-article basis. Please note sources on this list are not considered fake news unless specifically written in the reasoning section for that source."

Now of course there is another side or more nuanced parsing of the story about the NIXIVM story see these two websites here:

Fact Checking Nxivm Stories: Did the Dalai Lama Endorse Keith Raniere and Nxivm?

The Real Story Behind The Dalai Lama's Puzzling NXIVM Entanglement

I figure he allows himself to be call "His Holiness" for some of the same reasons people allow people to call religious leaders such things as:

Pope: Pope (Regnal Name); His Holiness; Your Holiness; Holy Father. Patriarch of an autonomous/particular church: Patriarch (Given Name); His Beatitude; Your Beatitude. Cardinal: (First Name) Cardinal (Last Name); His Eminence; Your Eminence.

It is a social convention used around the world in every culture. See more on:

Ecclesiastical Titles and Styles

Personally, I am into dialogue about things like religion and politics. There is a famous fellow in the USA but maybe not in the UK, now passed away, that wrote this:

"Seek first to understand, then to be understood." — Stephen Covey.

I personally don't think confrontation and speaking/writing in ways that might inflame or offend religious people's emotions is helpful to anyone. Then I could be totally wrong about that. I can understand how some people would do that since they may:

1. Have a high need to be right while making the other person wrong (right/wrong divides people though).

2. Have a need to dominate.

3. Like to argue (so they can be right and/or dominate or maybe they just find it fun to argue... I do not... dialogue yes, argue no).

4. Enjoy trolling people so they can see them being upset.

5. Maybe they are angry about how they were treated by religious authorities, institutions or their families in the past or currently.

6. Then, maybe it is their way of trying to help others to release themselves from the religious beliefs that have them although I don't get it will turn out well myself.

7. Maybe there are other reasons I have not thought about.

Well, bottom line the Dalai Lama is human. I am sure he has made mistakes and said dumb things. Even he has apologized for some of his humanness and having said dumb things.
 
You seem angry.
I don't think he seemed "angry", what I do think however, is that you are coming across as provocative by making such a comment.

I guess one of those types hurt you or someone you care about. I'm sorry that happened.
Which is both patronising and a glaringly baseless assumption you've made.

@Luman, in essence, has said, that all humans who claim (and have claimed throughout history) to have supernatural abilities and/or divine knowledge, are frauds and scam artists, who are/were out for themselves. And perhaps he's right. Even if he is, that still wouldn't actually challenge the idea of (a) God(s), whatever it's/their shape or form; as a human's ability (or lack thereof) to communicate with, or demonstrate a modicum of the power/ability of, such (a) thing(s), has no bearing on it's/their actuality.

What I don't understand, is you bringing (his) emotions into the debate, and then concluding that his position must stem from having been traumatised.

If you want to challenge people's arguments, then fine, but there's no need to make it personal.
 
I always find the most superstitious people tend to be agnostic as to any higher power, so they are more likely to put their faith in anything and everything else like astrology and the like. Of course you may classify belief in a God along with those other beliefs it helps you. When I first became a Christian, I took great delight in walking under ladders, etc., to the confusion of those around. I've known atheists that will do the same. Something we have in common!

You seem angry. I guess one of those types hurt you or someone you care about. I'm sorry that happened. There are many phoneys out there. Even among the well-intentioned ones, people mess up, that's the whole point of religion, or it should be. It shouldn't be about putting other people down, it should be about lifting each other up.

Maybe, most accounts are anecdotal at best, but I've heard such accounts from people I respect and trust. And the power of belief is a recognised factor for healing in medicine.

Faith Healing Shouldn't Work, But It Does
If you think faith healing, the power of "God", etc., exist, nothing I can say will convince you otherwise. As long as these beliefs are not incorporated into taxpayer-funded medical facilities and schools, or forced on others, that's fine with me but it is something that deserves mention when discussing religion on a group like this.

I have no desire to insult or denigrate any members of this group, regardless of their beliefs, and would not troll a religious group to tell them that their faith is absurd or that they "seem angry". I am not offended by your attitude, it's just proof that you must not have much conviction toward your belief system if you choose to spend time on a group comprised of people with no religious faith,
 
"Against the heartlessness of the Christian religion every grand and tender soul should enter solemn protest. The God of Hell should be held in loathing, contempt and scorn. A God who threatens eternal pain should be hated, not loved – cursed, not worshiped. A heaven presided over by such a God must be below the lowest hell. I want no part in any heaven in which the saved, the ransomed and redeemed will drown with shouts of joy the cries and sobs of hell – in which happiness will forget misery, where the tears of the lost only increase laughter and double bliss.

The idea of hell was born of ignorance, brutality, fear cowardice, and revenge. This idea testifies that our remote ancestors were the lowest beasts. Only from dens, lairs, and caves, only from mouths filled with cruel fangs, only from hearts of fear and hatred, only from the conscience of hunger and lust, only from the lowest and most debased could come this cruel, heartless and bestial of all dogmas."
― Robert G. Ingersoll (1833-1899)
 

Thanks for posting the videos. I particularly liked the Anthony Flew video. I had not heard of him. It does not bother me or drive me to defend any position I have that he changed his mind. Good for him. To move from an Atheist to a Deist or the other way is not a problem for me. If there is a god I do not think that god created a "suitable habitat" for human kind per one of the questions of the interviewer. Interesting response he had to if there was a life after death. I am glad he did not care how some other atheists reacted to his change in thinking.
 
I hear what you're saying @Luman, but I feel like you're confusing the two definitions here, and what you are actually describing yourself as, is an agnostic.

For example, the above definitions you've provided are correct, but shouldn't really be open to interpretation (in my opinion).

View attachment 48543

View attachment 48546

View attachment 48544

So basically, if belief in God(s) was a spectrum, it would look like this:

THEISTAGNOSTICATHEIST

  • THERE IS/ARE DEFINITELY (A) GOD(S) (LIKELY: AS DEPICTED IN ONE OF THE MAINSTREAM RELIGIONS)

  • THERE IS/ARE DEFINITELY NO GOD(S) (LIKELY: LIFE AS WE KNOW IT EVOLVED THROUGH A SERIES OF RANDOM CHEMICAL PROCESSES)

  • THERE MAY OR MAY NOT BE (A) GOD(S) (CONCLUSION: THERE IS NO EVIDENCE, OR EVIDENCE CAPABLE OF BEING PERCEIVED BY THE HUMAN MIND, FOR OR AGAINST ANY SUCH EXISTENCE, THEREFORE BELIEF/DISBELIEF IS SUSPENDED)

If you prefer to call yourself an atheist, obviously that is your right; as a person can really describe themselves as whatever they want these days (I became a 13 year old girl just this morning! ヽ(◦^⌣^◦)ノ ), also I take your point entirely regarding "charlatans" who have sold spiritual quackery to the "unenlightened" and gullible western population.

But just going by your description of your own beliefs, I have to say you don't really strike me as an gnostic atheist, but more perhaps an agnostic atheist (employing rather a: guilty until proven innocent stance, on (a) God(s) taking credit for our existence, and perhaps fate), which fits perfectly within the realm of what (by clear definitions) would be described as an agnostic.
Since I cannot "know" for certain that there is not a god, it would not be intelligent to say that I am 100% sure of it. Dawkins, in a video that was posted earlier, said that he was "6.9 out of 7" convinced that there was not a creator. This means that he is 98.571428571429% sure of his position. If a juror were to reach a conclusion about somebody's responsibility or innocence in a crime, to that degree, this is well beyond reasonable doubt and they would be within the law to vote to convict, or dismiss, the person.

I would not take seriously a person who considers himself to be an Athiest, who says that he knows or can prove that there is no god. Not having faith, is not the same as knowing something is not true. Claiming that it is possible to absolutely know that god does not exist is ridiculous, but when an Athiest expresses this as Dawkins has, the religious opponents' reaction may be, "See, even Dawkins isn't an Atheist anymore!". They are not able to deal with somebody whose Atheist lifestyle and intellect are advanced, as it is with Dawkins, so they revert to simplistic, sensationalistic methods to feel better about their learned beliefs.

No person has ever been born with religious faith or belief in god. Everybody, no matter who they are or where they are from, is born an Atheist, which means "Without theism." Most people, to one degree or another, eventually accept theology and claim to believe in god. Some cannot do this, and this bothers certain religious people very much, hence the denial of Dawkins' ability to be an Atheist outside of their misinformed definition of it.
 
Since I cannot "know" for certain that there is not a god, it would not be intelligent to say that I am 100% sure of it. Dawkins, in a video that was posted earlier, said that he was "6.9 out of 7" convinced that there was not a creator. This means that he is 98.571428571429% sure of his position. If a juror were to reach a conclusion about somebody's responsibility or innocence in a crime, to that degree, this is well beyond reasonable doubt and they would be within the law to vote to convict, or dismiss, the person.

I would not take seriously a person who considers himself to be an Athiest, who says that he knows or can prove that there is no god. Not having faith, is not the same as knowing something is not true. Claiming that it is possible to absolutely know that god does not exist is ridiculous, but when an Athiest expresses this as Dawkins has, the religious opponents' reaction may be, "See, even Dawkins isn't an Atheist anymore!". They are not able to deal with somebody whose Atheist lifestyle and intellect are advanced, as it is with Dawkins, so they revert to simplistic, sensationalistic methods to feel better about their learned beliefs.

No person has ever been born with religious faith or belief in god. Everybody, no matter who they are or where they are from, is born an Atheist, which means "Without theism." Most people, to one degree or another, eventually accept theology and claim to believe in god. Some cannot do this, and this bothers certain religious people very much, hence the denial of Dawkins' ability to be an Atheist outside of their misinformed definition of it.
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I am not offended by your attitude, it's just proof that you must not have much conviction toward your belief system if you choose to spend time on a group comprised of people with no religious faith,
Not at all, I just find it interesting to hear people's stories of how they came to hold their beliefs or lack thereof. I think that's much more interesting than an "I'm right, you're wrong" type of slanging match, and I meant no condescension.

Speaking of making it personal, I have often been told here and in other discussions that it's the fear of hell which seems the most obvious explanation for certain types of theistic belief. I guess we are trying to make sense of one another, and Jazzer has said he welcomes debate here.

It still seems to me quite a provocative and angry statement to say that "all religious leaders" are liars or phonies. Certainly the media like to make headlines about such examples, ignoring the silent majority who are getting on with trying to make a positive difference somewhere.
 
Not at all, I just find it interesting to hear people's stories of how they came to hold their beliefs or lack thereof. I think that's much more interesting than an "I'm right, you're wrong" type of slanging match, and I meant no condescension.

Speaking of making it personal, I have often been told here and in other discussions that it's the fear of hell which seems the most obvious explanation for certain types of theistic belief. I guess we are trying to make sense of one another, and Jazzer has said he welcomes debate here.

It still seems to me quite a provocative and angry statement to say that "all religious leaders" are liars or phonies. Certainly the media like to make headlines about such examples, ignoring the silent majority who are getting on with trying to make a positive difference somewhere.
This is a group for people who do not belong to organized religion and do not believe in a god or gods. I don't understand why you are surprised to find that there there are opinions that are rather harsh, toward the leaders of religion, as they are almost universally hostile toward Atheists, Agnostics, and others who do not participate in religion.

The clergy are liars, without exception. There is not a single shred of evidence to support the existence of the supernatural, yet they pose as an intermediary between imaginary divine beings, and humans, usually with promises of a reward after death for compliance and support, and fear of eternal punishment for not obeying their directives. Their ignorant, barbaric teachings are not worthy of any consideration, in modern civilization.

They receive all kinds of tax breaks for their organizations, which are actually businesses, and should be required to pay their fair share of taxes.
 
Some very interesting views posted on here. I really appreciate this quality of debate.

To me, all varieties of belief are indications of some kind of mental delusion, or perhaps even illness. I cannot resist the conclusion that 'fear' lies behind it. You only need to scald your little finger to understand that scenario. I can't help thinking that all preachers, ministers, are charlatans, yet unbelievably, some that I have met actually do come across as totally genuine?

Having lived with some diabolical conditions, such as maternal rejection, infantile trauma, abuse, neglect, schizoid isolation, subsequent depression, and now severe tinnitus, and having attempted prayer, in great sincerity, all to no avail whatsoever, I have formed the conclusion that god (small 'g') either does not exist, or does not care.

I guess I really have no doubts, having put him to the test.

Nothing fails like prayer.

So please keep up the good work, debate, brethren - I'm all for learning something.

Dave xx
 
Wow, and I was the one pulled up for getting personal and condescending... Mentally ill. Seriously?!

Ok, agnostics/atheists/non-theists or however you choose to define yourselves. Carry on.
Hi MM - I should hurriedly explain something here. I mean absolutely no offence whatsoever, and believe that everybody should stick to their own convictions.

But speaking purely from my own perspective.

The Christians I am acquainted with hold a passionate life-long belief in a god, for whom I can see or feel no possible evidence.

I don't really know how else to categorise that.
 
Wow, and I was the one pulled up for getting personal and condescending... Mentally ill. Seriously?!

Ok, agnostics/atheists/non-theists or however you choose to define yourselves. Carry on.
Reciting and repeating certain words, and believing this will influence an invisible being to change a situation or bring good luck, is insanity. Other rituals and superstitions are equally crazy, such as kissing a ring of a priest for spiritual reasons and sprinkling water that has been subject to a ritual by priests, on babies and converts, to erase the stain of "original sin" on their soul. In some churches, the recipient of baptism is immersed in a body of water, such as a river or lake. For many centuries, and even today in some sects, people of the Christian faith were indoctrinated with the teaching that a child who died without baptism would be doomed to languish in limbo for eternity, never reaching the level of being happy with god in heaven. Baptism is still practiced today, by many Christian churches.
 
Some very interesting views posted on here. I really appreciate this quality of debate.

To me, all varieties of belief are indications of some kind of mental delusion, or perhaps even illness. I cannot resist the conclusion that 'fear' lies behind it. You only need to scald your little finger to understand that scenario. I can't help thinking that all preachers, ministers, are charlatans, yet unbelievably, some that I have met actually do come across as totally genuine?

Having lived with some diabolical conditions, such as maternal rejection, infantile trauma, abuse, neglect, schizoid isolation, subsequent depression, and now severe tinnitus, and having attempted prayer, in great sincerity, all to no avail whatsoever, I have formed the conclusion that god (small 'g') either does not exist, or does not care.

I guess I really have no doubts, having put him to the test.

Nothing fails like prayer.

So please keep up the good work, debate, brethren - I'm all for learning something.

Dave xx
Indeed Jazzer if there is a god I just have to wonder about the "bad design" elements in the system myself. The world seems to be quite unfair with some dealt bad hands to play and others better or great hands to play. Of course that fact is likely how the Hindu scholars of the Upanishads and Vedas came up with the whole Karma story I imagine.

I imagine all humans have delusions of one degree or another. One would not get into their car and drive if one thought they would get into a wreck or be a death statistic (42,060 dead in the USA alone). Decades ago Father Leo Booth (yes he was an Episcopal priest... but left the Episcopal ministry and now is a Unity minister... Unity Churches do believe in god but don't require anyone to believe in god in any particular way... raised and educated in England as well as was a vicar at Churches in England) wrote a book called "When God Becomes a Drug" for example. Before that one he wrote "Breaking the Chains, Understanding Religious Addiction and Religious Abuse". If you want to give him a look see here:



But I digress.

I do think fear is a large cause of people believing in religion. Avoiding fear and/or looking for some comfort thus avoiding pain. From some form of gaining comfort and meaning in life from a story, to addiction or mental illness. Some are enmeshed in a victim/perpetrator sort of situation. Their either well meaning "perpetrators" (I don't think my parents meant any harm in putting me in Catholic school... they just did not know any better.) like any other profession using the story of religions to sick or malicious ends to satisfy their own needs.

I must admit as how I classify myself as an agnostic atheist there is not a whole lot of comfort in that. There clearly is an element of risk involved in being of this variety, for me at least, given I was so infused as a child in the whole punishment for eternity thing that the Catholic Church taught in that time. The thought I have that mitigates that element in my psyche is if there is a god and there is a "last judgment" sort of thing then that god almost certainly has to be better than most religions I know about says that god is in their "judgment" process of each individual. Anyway, here again I digress.

Bottom line human beings are basically wired to not be comfortable in the "I don't know" space. We tend to like the space of knowing and certainty and even if we have to make up fictions to cling to then we will. Evolutionary Psychology posits that humans were wired to believe in false things since often in life believing in false things meant you survived and passed your genes to the future generations. An obvious example is the seemingly born in fear of snakes. Ancestors and humans who came from those ancestors did not wait to think about if something seen was indeed a snake before the fear and quick movement to get away occurred. They reacted quickly to avoid the threat. Same with thinking one saw say a tiger. When things occurred that they did not understand they made up stories to comfort themselves (much like what we call shamanistic religions today). If one said that was BS to the tribe they threw you out so you then died thus one learns early to believe or at least shut up. Additionally those delusions and beliefs served to help the tribe to survive as well.

Well the last thing in this missive/rant is prayer may work per science since it part of the whole placebo effect although it is a difficult thing to measure. See here for more:

Prayer and healing: A medical and scientific perspective on randomized controlled trials

Of course the praying itself does not work, it is the placebo effect happening, but the believers don't believe that.

I certainly agree about learning. I do enjoy learning something just for the sake of learning it. I definitely know that I am not "right" and the universe if full of gray areas and ambiguity. Thanks for creating a space for this type of discourse and to all who participate and check it out by lurking.
 
I don't believe in any particular God but am interested in the healing power of faith. I believe that belief can give a person hope and thus influence the progression of their disease. I believe mental attitude goes a long way in the healing process even if its just giving yourself time for the healing process to kick in.

The placebo effect has always fascinated me. Modern allopathic medicine may be going completely the wrong way for neurological and complex conditions. I've yet to hear of modern medicine cure any neurological condition.

Anyway I digress. I'm simply saying that faith in a God may actually help people recover from illness regardless of whether the belief is in something empirically true.
 
Hi MM - I should hurriedly explain something here. I mean absolutely no offence whatsoever, and believe that everybody should stick to their own convictions.

But speaking purely from my own perspective.

The Christians I am acquainted with hold a passionate life-long belief in a god, for whom I can see or feel no possible evidence.

I don't really know how else to categorise that.
It was a hectic day yesterday. I came out for a fight and got as good as I gave. Fair do's.

At least you said some of the "other side" appear to be genuine. I should probably leave it there.
 
I don't believe in any particular God but am interested in the healing power of faith. I believe that belief can give a prrson hope and thus influence the progression of their disease. I believe mental attitude goes a long way in the healing process even if its just giving yourself time for the healing process to kick in.

The placebo effect has always fascinated me. Modern allopathic medicine may be going completely the wrong way for neurological and complex conditions. I've yet to hear of modern medicine cure any neurological condition.

Anyway I digress. I'm simply saying that faith in a God may actually help people recover from illness regardless of whether the belief is in something empirically true.
As for myself - I have no interest in mere solace or comfort - I am interested in pursuing the truth.
 
I am interested in pursuing the truth.

Hi Dave -- I'm curious how you go about that? Are you methodical by nature? Or sort of just let things come to you? Are you kinda relaxed about it, or are you like a dog with a bone? Is your discovery of experiencing stillness part of that? (I think I'm at least a bit of all the above).

Also, given how much you value stillness, have you ever considered that stillness may "possibly" be the presence of god? Which would sort of negate most of the images of god that conventional religions would have us believe. Just to mention, I'm just being curious here. No need to reply if you really don't have an interest.
 
how much you value stillness, have you ever considered that stillness may "possibly" be the presence of god? Which would sort of negate most of the images of god that conventional religions would have us believe. Just to mention, I'm just being curious here. No need to reply if you really don't have an interest.
A few years ago, I had a half-hour or so during which I felt the way I probably felt when very young, perhaps no more than two years old - stillness, with no sense of problems or time, and connected with everything around me. It was a memory and an experience at the same time. Some would have said that this was a "religious experience". It was not. There was absolutely nothing "spiritual" about it at all but I could imagine somebody thinking that it was, were it to happen to them. It was the ultimate meditation, and I don't even do meditation regularly. I could not imagine topping that experience, even if it happens again. But I must say again, that, it had no feeling of supernaturalism, it simply felt the way that very young children probably feel.
 
Hi Dave -- I'm curious how you go about that? Are you methodical by nature? Or sort of just let things come to you? Are you kinda relaxed about it, or are you like a dog with a bone? Is your discovery of experiencing stillness part of that? (I think I'm at least a bit of all the above).

Also, given how much you value stillness, have you ever considered that stillness may "possibly" be the presence of god? Which would sort of negate most of the images of god that conventional religions would have us believe. Just to mention, I'm just being curious here. No need to reply if you really don't have an interest.
Nothing interests me more than this subject Lane. I'll try to keep this concise.

Infancy/childhood - solitary - no bonding - mentally ill mother - neglect - abuse, etc... schizoid phenomena - depression.

I read endlessly about attachment and loss, childcare, the growth of love etc. I had to be determined to discover what went wrong. If I didn't at least find the answers and achieve understanding, I knew I would commit suicide.

Brilliant psychotherapist Stephen Parkhill wrote a book called 'Answer Cancer' in which he claimed that psychological pain could also wreak no end of physical damage. He formulated the concept that the earliest experiences in infancy were crucial, because they contained the primary messages of either:

Love and acceptance
OR
Isolation and rejection.

Once 'the single foundation stone' was laid it would set the tone for future happiness, or trauma.
He called the earliest experience:
The Initial Sensitising Event.


He recommended going back to one's earliest memory of a good loving experience, and then rebuilding from there. I realised that I had no memories of maternal love whatsoever. There was only one way that I could pre-date my trauma. I could believe in a wet warm loving environment - in the womb. Even my mother's mental illness could not destroy that experience for me. So I appreciate my mother for providing me with safe, warm, water.

Now you may appreciate my desire to meditate in a warm bath every morning.

As to stillness - I know it is crucial to preserve our sense of peace, particularly as we have lost our quiet.

My particular meditational technique involves asking my tummy to breath for me - no conscious breathing - allow the diaphragm to breath as and when it chooses. I think of it as 'hover breathing.' Barely perceptible. It's what happens automatically when we sleep of course. As I hover between consciousness and unconsciousness I hear no tinnitus, and I am at peace. Stillness. I am not asleep however.

As to the presence of god - during my agonising childhood I prayed constantly. Tears running down my face. Nobody ever came for me. Nobody ever picked me up. The god of the Bible is supposed to be 'all knowing, all loving, all powerful, etc...'

So where was he?
God either works - or he doesn't.
Prayer either works - or it doesn't.
God either exists - or he doesn't.
I could never find him.
He is not a reality to me.

Sorry this is so long. I had to try to get it down so that it made some sense Lane.
 
Truth is an interesting concept.

Scientifically we can never achieve 100% probability of truth about anything.

Think of the 'medical truths' that have been debunked over the centuries.
Religious 'truth' is another thing - there are so many of them depending on your choice of religion. Some of them contradicting each other.

Maybe the only truth is death. Haven't heard of anyone who avoided that.
 
I don't believe in any particular God but am interested in the healing power of faith. I believe that belief can give a person hope and thus influence the progression of their disease. I believe mental attitude goes a long way in the healing process even if its just giving yourself time for the healing process to kick in.

The placebo effect has always fascinated me. Modern allopathic medicine may be going completely the wrong way for neurological and complex conditions. I've yet to hear of modern medicine cure any neurological condition.

Anyway I digress. I'm simply saying that faith in a God may actually help people recover from illness regardless of whether the belief is in something empirically true.
Can some faithful people who are ill, and believe in a god or gods, obtain results whether the being that they believe in exists, or not? I think that hope and a positive attitude can help with some, to various degrees with most medical conditions, and if their faith provides this it's fine for them. For myself, this would be impossible but I'd try to do it other ways. I do not, however, believe in "faith healers" at all. Faith healing is a hoax, and highly dishonest. As far as praying for sick or needy people, there is the Ingersoll quotation, "The hands that help are better far than lips that pray".
 

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