MemberLOL! You do know that changing one or two genes doesn't give you wings, a beak and make you crap eggs....
Autifony Therapeutics Phase II Study for AUT00063, for the Treatment of Hearing Loss and Tinnitus
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LOL! You do know that changing one or two genes doesn't give you wings, a beak and make you crap eggs....
Ian Mac
Member
- Jun 1, 2016
- 321
- Tinnitus Since
- 2011
- Cause of Tinnitus
- Vestibular Nueritis, loud music (dubstep)
Yes Evolution takes time. I'm saying that the way we hear drives evolution. Your evolution depends on your brain (that's an assumption, we don't actually know what drives evolution, but I say its the brain) To change your hearing will alter your brain, hence altering your evolution and your kids evolution and their kids evolution until you might start to see visible diviations from "normal" anatomy, perhaps not shitting eggs, but maybe something else, something the world hadn't seen, starting with the ability to make your brain ring or *NOT ring* wouldn't you like to make your brain ring or not ring? Are you able to now? What will it take to let you turn off your brain ringing? The next huge jump in human evolution, where we can program the brain for peace and silence, like how there's s big jump between monkeys and humans and no evidence of what caused it, something happened, and something is going to happen for us.
Ian Mac
Member
- Jun 1, 2016
- 321
- Tinnitus Since
- 2011
- Cause of Tinnitus
- Vestibular Nueritis, loud music (dubstep)
Hi Markku,did you ever hear anything back?Would have been nice to have had a bit of feedback from the one person who seemed to have a positive result from this
As a molecular biologist who has studied evolutionary biology, human physiology and did my thesis in genetics I can say your grasp on evolution and how it works is very poor (at least from what I could tell from the posts from you above).
Evolution takes time, A LOT OF TIME. You can't see evolution from one generation to another. It's a process that usually spans thousands and even millions of years.
Evolution has no apparent goal. It doesn't give a crap what anyone wants. Whether a genetic mutation makes you crap eggs or not is irrelevant. What is relevant is if that genetic mutation is going to give you and your offspring an advantage over the rest of the population. And if craping eggs makes you and your children have 10 kids that reach adulthood on average versus (let's say) 3 that others do. Then your craping egg genes win! Over the course of many generations that gene is going to become the norm since it gives every carrier an evolutionary advantage (more children that reach adulthood and reproduce). It has nothing to do with what anyone wants or what we might consider to be a good thing to have.
And evolution is always ongoing. If we cure some genetic disease it doesn't eliminate the evolutionary process It just takes that single variable out of the equation. Or as scientist would like to say. There is no evolutionary pressure on that genetic variation. But there is always going to be something that is selected against or for.
As to the ringing brain I guess sometime in our evolutionary history it was a good thing that gave an edge to be able to do that or perhaps another favorable trait came along with it. Another explanation could be that another gene that was heavily selected for that is in the same region of the DNA. Than that gene could have been piggy-back-riding with the one that was favorable if it doesn't have a negative impact that would outweigh the other genes positive impact. This is due to how chromosomal translocation works. Genes that are physically close to each other on the DNA strand tend to be inherited together.
If we look at it historically we almost never exposed our ears to sounds louder than speaking humans. It's only in the last few hundreds of years that we have had things like industry, discotheques and now ear buds. So now we are actually watching evolution in progress. People like us that aren't as fit for this world are loosing out to those who are better equipped to handle the current changes. However that doesn't have to be the case since the only thing that matters is our ability to survive and produce viable offspring. Quality of life and happiness has nothing to do with it. But I would guess since having tinnitus increases your chances of for example killing your self, it has a negative impact on reproductive success.
Now for the brain and birds thing. There are genes expressed during development that are switched off later. And that is the reason why we cannot heal certain things, like hearing or growing out a new hand if it gets severed. However all that we need to do that is already within us, it's just not on. Switching those genes on doesn't make us like birds. It just makes us like human fetuses again (If you like a more accurate analogy).
I'm guessing your question now might be something like: "Why has growing out new limbs and healing perfectly not been selected for by nature. It would surly have been a good ability to have. After all lizards can grow new limbs, why should we not be able to."
The answer to that is that it's not so simple. Sure growing out a limb might be an excellent trait. But a lizard is small compared to an adult human. To grow a leg a lizards needs perhaps millions of new cells (it's rather small). An adult human would need trillions of cells. And every cell division is a ticket in the cancer lottery. So that trait quickly becomes a liability for a human! Or it simply consumed too much energy to heal everything perfectly all the time so "good enough" became better since resources were scarce in the past.
Changing ones hearing might alter ones brain but then again people who are born deaf aren't different in regards to their brain than normal hearing people. So I do not think that changing one detail will have an impact of us starting to lay eggs or flap our arms trying to fly. It might change us in the long run but it most certainly will not make us more like birds.
undecided
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Ian Mac
Member
- Jun 1, 2016
- 321
- Tinnitus Since
- 2011
- Cause of Tinnitus
- Vestibular Nueritis, loud music (dubstep)
You have just spent a very long time writing a very long winded explanation claiming to dispute but agreeing with everything I originally said, evolution takes time. I agree with you.
What was the difference between Neanderthals and homosapiens? Something happened (I believe it was a enhancement in hearing which lead to larger brains in homosapians) and something is going to happen for us (like not you and me but us as in humanity, future and present) if we are going to stop tinnitus. When a creation stops evolving productively nature selects them (yes over thousand if not millions of years) for extinction, through desease, or like the do- do bird by removing their ability to fly because they got fat while atop the birdy food chain. In America we are the do -do bird, watching tv eating more moving less, it's started, we can't go on like this for a million more years without becoming extinct, something will need to change, or we die. I believe Tinnitus is the mechanism by which humanity discovers SOMETHING about ourselves that perhaps changes our paradigm and puts us back on the path toward healthy evolution, evolution which leads to less desease, better quality of life between the Ears, without the stress of Tinnitus. We are the messengers, (the universes ginneapigs) how else would we ever discover the inner workings of the brain, WE ARE the beginning of the rumblings of insecurity with our current evolutionary path. We are at the doctor and on the Internet saying wait we don't understand the true nature of the universe and ourselves because I hear ringing, it's the universe communicating to us "oops theres more work to do, get off the couch n McDonald's or get on like the dinosaur I've got stuff to create, things are evolving, get with it". Tinnitus is the concious universe pointing with a flashlight in a dark room for us the path to free us from ALL current evolutionary hang - ups, including the hang-up we call "ringing in the brain." The only question is can we do it now?? Or do we have to wait until more countries adopt an American lifestyle and things get worse and worse, in which case it won't happen in our lifetimes.
Nope! Wrong! Neanderthals had bigger brains than us. Once again you are showing poor understanding and knowledge of the human evolution and are drawing staggering conclusions based on that poor understanding. The dominant hypothesis among scientists is that Neanderthals didn't really get extinct at all. They simply interbreed with us until there was no distinction among the two species. They have actually found genetic evidence of this in modern humans.
As for the hearing part, do you have any proof of that what so ever? Because as the modern human have evolved we have actually gotten worse senses. And it has a logical explanation. If a human has poor eyesight och hearing or whatever other problem they don't face the same harsh penalty of death as animals in the wild do. So therefore the evolutionary pressure to maintain those sharp senses decreases.
No. you won't die! The ones that are sitting in their couches eating Big Macs and getting fat are just not going to produce as many children as those who do not. There ar people who can eat at McDonald's all day long and not get any health issues. They are the winners and their genes will dominate the population eventually. There will be no mass death, no massacre of some kind. The fat people are just going to die eventually of old age and in the next generation there will be a few less fat people because the fat people will have had less kids than others. And in the generation after that there will be a few lass than the previous one and then in a few hundred or maybe thousand of years there will be only very few left in the human population. There will not be fewer people. There will be more people, just fewer fat ones. That is if the environmental conditions stay the same.
The human race will not ever be extinct by anything coming from Earth. Not even a virus outbreak can kill us. There have been many such incidences in the past but there will always be survivors. The genetic diversity among humans is our insurance of that. What ever disease comes there will most certainly be those who are immune. And even if only 1% were to be immune it's still more than enough. We are such dominant presence on the planet that there is simply no chance in hell that some other type of species is going to evolve and out compete us. Because we'd probably nuke it. The only thing that can extinct the human race is the human race or some kind of external force. Such as a meteor strike or an alien invasion.
There is no healthy and unhealthy evolution. There is just evolution. What you consider to be healthy is maybe not the best thing from an evolutionary standpoint. Just like I explained with the healing and growing of severed limbs. It may seem like the best thing but is it optimal for survival of the species? Evolution doesn't have a conciseness, it doesn't have a goal or purpose other than survival. The goal is not to develop the ultimate being. There is no such thing. There is only best for now, until something changes.
Jeez! I think you are really overthinking this. Tinnitus is no different than any other condition. In fact tinnitus is not really a condition or disease if you think about it. At least not in most cases. Tinnitus is only a problem in THIS current environment with the noise epidemic. As I said, in the old world before we had all these modern things that are messing up our hearing it would have been a non-issue for us. So there is actually nothing wrong with us. We are just poorer adapted to THIS kind of life than others who do not have the same issues.
If we find a cure the only thing that will come with it that we will take the genes that might be responsible for our sensitivity to noise out of the evolutionary equation. That's it! And if we never find a cure and keep on living in the same noise nature will take care of it eventually.
This was a ..."ahh. Yes. That makes sense"... moment for me.
Thanks for your explanation.
I can understand that a long, long time ago there was no noise pollution. Never the less there will have been other hearing issues. (Flue, Ménière's Disease, otosclerose, etc..)
If your hearing would become impaired, surviving could become more of a problem. Hence less or no offspring.
But the group of people with hearing problems was too small to make an impact on evolution.
Yes of course it's a negative impact. This is perhaps why only a relatively small fraction of the population are having these issues. The vast majority does not. I'm sure there are examples in the animal kingdom where animals have issues with hearing and eyesight but for humans (at least for the last few thousands of years that we have had civilizations) the penalty is rather lenient in comparison. Most of the people who have issues with the diseases you have described do just fine. They grow up, have kids and their kids have kids. And so the "faulty" genes are allowed to survive. You see, no matter how bad a genetic variation might be. A single variation of a gene will almost never become completely extinct. It will just become very rare. We see this with all the genetic diseases like hemophilia, ms and so on.
You can actually do math on this. What you do is you calculate fitness. And by that I mean biological fitness, not how much you can run. You calculate how many of the offspring from an average individual with a variation of a gene reach adulthood and than have children of their own. And than you compare it to an average individual with another variation of the same gene. If one variation scores higher than it's better. It gives it's carriers better fitness. And depending on the difference you can actually calculate how many generations it will take for a gene to become dominant in a population.
You can than plot your numbers on a graph. But the curve is not linear. It's exponential. And exponential functions never reach 0.
For instance a genetic variation that only gives 4% better fitness (for example 104 offspring vs. 100 per 100 individuals) will be prevalent in over 90% of the population in roughly 80 generations. For humans, that's around 2 000 years. For a bacteria it's only a day or two.
However genetics and evolutionary processes are not so simple. In my example I just looked at one gene. In reality there are many genes involved. One gene might not be bad unless found in an exact combination of variants of other genes.
Also as I stated, something that we might consider to be "good" might not play out so well in nature and vice versa. Let's hypothetically play with the thought that let's say tinnitus is linked to a gene that at the same time makes it's carriers more sexually aggressive (read: more horny). All of the sudden that gene becomes a good thing to have in the evolutionary playing field . Because primary males with that gene are presumably going to be more successful in spreading their genes. The selection is usually done by the females in humans. Because, all women that are fertile tend to become mothers at some point, unless they choose not to. However the males are usually not so lucky. Many males are rejected and never get to be fathers.
If we take intelligence as an example, the distribution of points in an IQ-score among women and men is different. The average is the same but women tend to stay at the average mark whereas men tend to be in the high or low end of the scale. And as expected many of the genes that regulate brain development are found on the X-chromosome. As you may know women have two of those so even if a gene is defective on one of them the other copy will most likely balance the scale. But also if they have one copy of a much better gene the other copy might drag it down.
But men who only have one X-chromosome are either smart or dumb (if you simplify it). In other words there are more geniuses among males but also more idiots and women are the ones selecting which ones are worthy to pass on their genes. Intelligence in humans is basically like the colorful feathers on a peacock. There is no real need for it to be this large. In fact this kind of traits where a species develops energy consuming traits for no apparent reason are referred to as pea-cocking.
Also as I stated, something that we might consider to be "good" might not play out so well in nature and vice versa. Let's hypothetically play with the thought that let's say tinnitus is linked to a gene that at the same time makes it's carriers more sexually aggressive (read: more horny). All of the sudden that gene becomes a good thing to have in the evolutionary playing field . Because primary males with that gene are presumably going to be more successful in spreading their genes. The selection is usually done by the females in humans. Because, all women that are fertile tend to become mothers at some point, unless they choose not to. However the males are usually not so lucky. Many males are rejected and never get to be fathers.
If we take intelligence as an example, the distribution of points in an IQ-score among women and men is different. The average is the same but women tend to stay at the average mark whereas men tend to be in the high or low end of the scale. And as expected many of the genes that regulate brain development are found on the X-chromosome. As you may know women have two of those so even if a gene is defective on one of them the other copy will most likely balance the scale. But also if they have one copy of a much better gene the other copy might drag it down.
But men who only have one X-chromosome are either smart or dumb (if you simplify it). In other words there are more geniuses among males but also more idiots and women are the ones selecting which ones are worthy to pass on their genes. Intelligence in humans is basically like the colorful feathers on a peacock. There is no real need for it to be this large. In fact this kind of traits where a species develops energy consuming traits for no apparent reason are referred to as pea-cocking.
Ian Mac
Member
- Jun 1, 2016
- 321
- Tinnitus Since
- 2011
- Cause of Tinnitus
- Vestibular Nueritis, loud music (dubstep)
My tinnitus is NOT from noise exposure.
You said evolution in the brain would not lead to visible changes in the body but Neanderthals and humans looked different.
There is a concious energy or god driving evolution, tinnitus is part of the plan. There IS good evolution and bad evolution, and tinnitus is keeping us on path. Through curing it we will become more advanced, with deeper understanding, and ultimately evolve for the bette because of T.
Oh and Fart, very big fart.
And I said "in most cases". I never claimed all of them. But anyhow you do say "loud music (dubstep)" in your profile as cause of tinnitus.
No I didn't. I said it wouldn't make us like birds, which is what you claimed. And the neanderthals weren't so different. In fact there are people alive today that look a lot more like neanderthals (or at least what we think they looked like) than what we would consider a "normal" modern human.
The neanderthals walked upright on two legs, used spoken language to communicate, had two arms with hands that had thumbs, they were of slightly shorter height on average and only a slightly larger brain. To be more precise they had a larger visual cortex which would indicate that they had better vision, but we can't know that for sure. The DNA analysis have showed that more than 99,5% of their DNA was identical to the modern human, which is close to the same difference that can be found between two random people.
And if you compare modern humans there are larger differences just between tribes living in Africa than there is between the neanderthals and us if you just look at appearance. For instance you have the pygmies where the men have an average height of 145 cm (4'9'') and a few tribes in West Africa where the men average at close to 200 cm (6'6'').
I mean just look at the following picture. This is from two competitors at the current Olympic Games. Both represent the USA.
Oh and there we go! Lost you here, sorry... Are brain eating parasites and eye eating maggots also part of the plan?
Nope. No such thing as good or bad evolution...read what I wrote above. Who is to decide what is good and what is bad? There are no such things as supreme beings. If a species is alive and well then they are fit for the current environment. The humans are no better than cockroaches. Both species are alive and well and not threatened to become extinct. There are traits that are good in some conditions but bad in others. So in reality there is just better and not so good for the current environment which is what drives evolution. There are lots of situations and possible environments where there is better to be a cockroach than to be a human. In fact I bet that if humanity ever does become extinct for some reason the roaches will still be alive and kicking.
Ian Mac
Member
- Jun 1, 2016
- 321
- Tinnitus Since
- 2011
- Cause of Tinnitus
- Vestibular Nueritis, loud music (dubstep)
My bad tinnitus noises in my right ear are from labrythitis, I also have central brain tinnitus from loud music, we call noise induced tinnitus "baby foo foo tinnitus". Getting tinnitus from the way your ears were meant to function, loud music in particular is nothing, your ears were meant to listen to noises and you listened to loud for too long, boo hoo, hope you never experience T that comes from infections - bacteria fungus virus mold inhalation autoimmune inflammation - this is cry for real take me to the mental hospital fluctuating TINNITUS. That's what I have google it, Labrythitis.
If you read you would see I never said you would shit eggs so why don't you just stop mentioning it? I told that guy that would not happen.
I say "There is good evolution and bad evolution" you say there is no such thing - it's actually "better and not so good evolution"? - wow that's a big difference I was way off the mark, we will say it your way it sounds much *poop* better:
"better and not so good evolution."
My assertion is that we have a goal with our evolution (what I call good evolution, and you call better evolution) . Something within us or external I don't know or care is guiding our evolution so we don't fuck it up. I say we have purpose and I believe this is where I loose you again, I believe we have a purpose. Our purpose involves possubly leaving the planet permanently and I don't know where we go from there but also curing T and evolving from the knowledge. I believe we are currently in line with a evolutionary path that allows us to achieve our destiny, I choose to believe that T is part of the plan. I believe T is pointing into the brain which is the next great frontier.
Have you noticed literally there's no such thing as a brain doctor, which is Dumb because we all have brains. There's ear doctors and hand doctors ect but we have yet to find the Brain Doctor, but once we cure Tinnitus I predict the emergence of, wait for it, Brain Doctors who specialize in the, wait for it, The damn Brain.
I also mentioned farts which are good for you to smell, it's true.
If you put something in between quotation marks then make sure that it's exactly what the other person said. I never wrote "better and not so good evolution".
What I wrote was: "There are traits that are good in some conditions but bad in others. So in reality there is just better and not so good for the current environment which is what drives evolution."
If you actually read what I wrote you should be able to understand that I wasn't talking about good or bad evolution but good or bad traits. "Better and not so good [TRAITS] for the current environment which is what drives evolution." You have to put things in it's proper context.
By the way, you do know what a trait is right? It's a characteristic like for instance blue eyes, black hair or the ability to lay eggs.
There is no end goal for evolution. An end goal implicates that after it's reached evolution stops. But it never will. It will always be favorable and less favorable traits to have for the current conditions. And as conditions change something that was good in the past becomes bad today. You mentioned people getting fat. Those kind of traits were a good thing to have a few thousand years ago when access to food was poor and having the ability to store energy as fat was key to survival. But today when we can eat as much as we want and when we want those same traits become a problem.
So evolution never stops which means that there is no end goal. Every species has it's own niche where it fits in. Some creatures fly, some swim, some can breathe air, some can live in the water, some have big brains, some have no brains...and so on and so on. If something changes in the environment some species will be poorly adapted for the changes and die out, some will survive and then some will develop new traits over time to survive even better. It's not that difficult to understand!
If evolution had a goal then everything would be pointing in the same direction. But it doesn't. There is just one goal with evolution. And that is LIFE! But what form that life has is not so important only that there is life.
Oh you've never heard of neurologists and neurosurgeons then? Psychiatrists are also focusing on the brain. There is even neuropsychiatrists that are focusing on mental disorders attributed to diseases of the nervous system. Then you have behavioral neurologists who address clinical problems of cognition and/or behavior caused by brain injury or brain disease. There are more types of doctors that are focusing on the brain, I've only names a few.
So perhaps there is no "brain doctor" but there are several fields that are focused on the brain and specific areas or functions of the brain. This is perhaps because the brain is so complex that there is no way to be an expert on all of it.
This once again shows how poorly you understand science and medicine and I see this conversation going nowhere if you consistently throw around false claims, fraudulent quotes and try to pass your beliefs and poor conclusions based on poor understanding as facts. This is what happens when you try to mix science and medieval religious crap.
Ian Mac
Member
- Jun 1, 2016
- 321
- Tinnitus Since
- 2011
- Cause of Tinnitus
- Vestibular Nueritis, loud music (dubstep)
I'm not gong to engage you anymore as you are a broken record.
Your exact words AGAIN "better and not so good evolution." Go read it AGAIN and tell me you didn't say that, fool.
I never said evolution stops I said there is a goal to our (continuos) evolution, a path we should walk as we evolve. Did I just blow your little mind? Can you wrap your brain around this or are you going to tell me again that I don't understand? And perhaps write another pointless paragraph from your studies.
Actually you don't understand, just get that through your head, memorize it, and regurgitate it later to someone else.
Your exact words AGAIN "better and not so good evolution." Go read it AGAIN and tell me you didn't say that, fool.
I never said evolution stops I said there is a goal to our (continuos) evolution, a path we should walk as we evolve. Did I just blow your little mind? Can you wrap your brain around this or are you going to tell me again that I don't understand? And perhaps write another pointless paragraph from your studies.
Actually you don't understand, just get that through your head, memorize it, and regurgitate it later to someone else.
Ian Mac
Member
- Jun 1, 2016
- 321
- Tinnitus Since
- 2011
- Cause of Tinnitus
- Vestibular Nueritis, loud music (dubstep)
See above.
You said there ARE brain doctors here now, then you say they are nuerologists? Then you say oh ya I realize there actually AREN'T any brain doctors, which was my point. A brain Doctor would specialize in the brain not just taker around in there sometimes.
WIN.
I actually quoted the two sentences to you in my previous post. I never said what you claim. It's just silly of you to still cling on to that when all hou have to do is scroll up the page and read!
Here is a screenshot of my post. I have highlighted the text you are falsely quoting.
Do I say "better and not so good evolution" anywhere in the post?! Where do you see that? In fact in the very first sentence of that paragraph I say that there is "no such thing as good or bad evolution".
There are! They're just not called "brain doctors" they are called neurologists! I would say it's not that hard to understand but with you I really don't know. Maybe it's hard for you to get it unless they're not using small words. Do they really have to spell the "brain" word out? There are no "heart doctors" either. Instead they are called cardiologists.
Do you even have a clue as to what a neurologist does?!
Here is a hint: https://www.urmc.rochester.edu/highland/departments-centers/neurology/what-is-a-neurologist.aspx
As to everything else, all I have to say is it has brought me lots of laughter reading your posts... Wow! LOL!!
Ian Mac
Member
- Jun 1, 2016
- 321
- Tinnitus Since
- 2011
- Cause of Tinnitus
- Vestibular Nueritis, loud music (dubstep)
I actually quoted the two sentences to you in my previous post. I never said what you claim. It's just silly of you to still cling on to that when all hou have to do is scroll up the page and read!
Here is a screenshot of my post. I have highlighted the text you are falsely quoting.
View attachment 11059
Do I say "better and not so good evolution" anywhere in the post?! Where do you see that? In fact in the very first sentence of that paragraph I say that there is "no such thing as good or bad evolution".
There are! They're just not called "brain doctors" they are called neurologists! I would say it's not that hard to understand but with you I really don't know. Maybe it's hard for you to get it unless they're not using small words. Do they really have to spell the "brain" word out? There are no "heart doctors" either. Instead they are called cardiologists.
Do you even have a clue as to what a neurologist does?!
Here is a hint: https://www.urmc.rochester.edu/highland/departments-centers/neurology/what-is-a-neurologist.aspx
As to everything else, all I have to say is it has brought me lots of laughter reading your posts... Wow! LOL!!
You said good and bad and good and not so good types of evolution above, if you continue to debate it- well you know what they say about doing the same thing over and over expecting different results, they say they are insane.
So did you know there are nuerologist who specialize in ears? I figured you would because you have T. They aren't called nuerologists buddy because it's too vague, they are called otologists, it's specific to the ears. Now tell me the name of the brain nuerologist, and don't say nuerologist lol lol lol. You can't I win.
Not sure what updates you expect on a final report of a failed clinical trial.
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