Benzos — It's More About Proper Use

[Lane]

When a tinnitus patient like @TracyJS tries to explain that anxiety from the intrusive noise is so bad the doctors hear the wrong message. They translate this to depression. Clinical depression is a separate issue during this stage (if a patient has not been diagnosed with the condition prior to tinnitus).

Hi @Starthrower,

Well put Jen...​

In terms of an AD, the thinking is that this could help the anxiety

Hi @TracyJS,

I made A POST yesterday on why I think massaging the ears can help reduce anxiety--perhaps even in lieu of resorting to benzodiazapines. I regularly massage mine at least 2x per day, along with using acupressure, and putting helichrysum essential oil on my ears. I really do think it calms my system down considerably, as a result of stimulating the auricular branch of the vagus nerve.

I think a lot of the anxiety, depression, despair, etc. that many of us experience is a result of tinnitus causing the vagus nerve to vibrate at discordant frequencies. And this discordance gets passed along to wherever the vagus nerve traverses. That's why I believe I experience T in so many places, such as my head, throat, heart, and even gut. These are all areas the vagus nerve passes through.

Here's a key sentence from my above linked post: -- The vagus nerve is a major nerve in our body that has a huge impact on our ability to relax (initiates a parasympathetic response, and takes us out of fight or flight mode).

Hugs....​

 

[glynis]

AD meds are not adictive like a benzo and can cause the odd side effect coming off them but nothing nasty like a benzo and a low dose for sleep them should not cause problems coming off .

Any medication effecting the brain can cause a short spike as your brain just needs a few days to adjust so this is why AD meds should be started on the lowest dose with an increase 2-4 weeks later if needed.
love glynis

 

[Lane]

Blimey Greg - I'm really going for it this morning mate - and I haven't even had a cup of tea yet!

Hi @Jazzer,

I have to say, I found your musings this morning both entertaining and rather humorous (hope that's OK.. )​

Obviously, in a life full of considerable psychological trauma I have considered god. ... At no time have I 'felt' his presence with me. ... Yes - I have prayed my heart out, with tears running down my face, so often as a child, and very frequently as an adult, and the net result for me has been - guess what - nothing! My integrity and my logic are unmoved by the vile biblical threats of 'hell fire' etc.... implicit in the wonderful biblical message of an all-loving god. ... Ineffable love - eh? ... (Believe - out of fear - no thanks - I have more self respect than that.) ...

I especially like your comment about having "more self respect than that". I came to that same conclusion in bible study when I was about 10 years old. The whole thing about fearing god was just not in my own DNA. Didn't buy it then, don't buy it now.

Like you, I too found that a life based on love was the path I wanted to travel. It eventually led me to discarding the familiar bibilical threats even more thoroughly. Which paved the way for me to adopt a whole new and refreshing outlook on life and spirituality--based on live, not fear. Perhaps I should thank my early biblical training for being so preposterous that it made it relatively easy for me to move on from it?

Thanks again for "going for it" this morning. -- All the Best!​

 

[Starthrower]

I do have some concern regarding tolerance and Xanax. I fear I could develop a tolerance and then have a much harder time.
In terms of an AD, the thinking is that this could help the anxiety. I guess there is less of a risk of tolerance, but there's still a concern about how it would affect tinnitus both short term and long term.
I'm still struggling with this decision and more of my life and self are slipping away...

Hi @TracyJS I did some searching in the Doctor's Corner for @Dr. Hubbard and found some interesting ideas you may consider. You could post him a question there. There will be a solution!

https://www.tinnitustalk.com/forums/dr-bruce-hubbard-psychologist-cbt.76/

In his webinar he mentioned this site for finding a local therapist. This is how I found some help. On my own. The second link takes you to a form (in Dr. Hubbard's site) where you only give your city and state and zip code. Therapists will be shown for your area. I called each one. This was years ago.

It just may help getting some advice with Dr. Hubbard and looking into the therapists on the second link below.
Let me know if the links work.


www.adaa.org

https://members.adaa.org/search/custom.asp?id=4685

 

[Jazzer]

Thanks again for "going for it" this morning. -- All the Best!

Thanks Lane.
Yes - I have been known to 'shoot me mouth of a bit' sometimes.
I love playing about with words and ideas and have been known to 'play to the gallery' a bit.
Comes from being a Jazzer up on stage for all of those years I guess.
Now that playing my beloved trombone is out of the question, I'll just have to use my 'gob.'

I was brought up in the Salvation Army from the cradle to age 18, so got pretty used to handling brass, but at no time did I have an epiphany.
I may have been a little more receptive to the message if the biblical editors (let's face it - the bible has to be the work of men) had not seen fit to incorporate appallingly despicable blackmail into the equation, just to make sure we all face death with a feeling of terror.
(as do many Catholics I believe.)

'Blimey Lane - I'm getting all fired up again..!!'

Of course, I have many deeply religious friends whom I am very fond of, and they are lovely people, but I still think that absolutely no subject should be held above questioning and debate, and with a touch of good humour thrown in for good measure.

Lane...Oh Lane...have I sent you to sleep buddy ?

Jazzer
Dave x

PS - I am a lover of quality cartoons, so if you want to check out some further irreverence you might like to peruse Jazzer's Cartoon Corner.....x

 

[Jazzer]

@TracyJS

Hi babe - you might like to look up
'Dr Hubbard's Story.'
I found it very interesting,
It also incorporates mindfulness.

Thinking about you,
worrying about you,
and wishing you better,

Jazzer
Dave x

 

[Elfin]

It also incorporates mindfulness.

Hi @Jazzer have you noticed mindfulness helping with the depression and anxiety aspects at all?

 

[Jazzer]

Hi @Jazzer have you noticed mindfulness helping with the depression and anxiety aspects at all?

Hi Elfin - busy day working on a charity appeal for the Royal Marsden Cancer Hospital.
Will come back later.......

 

[Jazzer]

Benzos can be helpful if used properly. If not, then problems can develop. What I have seen in a trauma level 1 ER over a 28 year period. To a few that this may interest - @dayma @Starthrower @Jazzer


http://thechart.blogs.cnn.com/2014/05/22/xanax-related-er-visits-double-in-6-years/

https://www.healthline.com/health-news/the-other-prescription-drug-problem-benzos#1

***proper withdrawal***
https://drugabuse.com/library/benzodiazepine-withdrawal/

Having read all three items I come back to my position that these powerful drugs are best left alone.
Call me a pessimist.
If I took these tablets I would expect the worst.
Severe Tinnitus is quite bad enough, without adding complications.

I have no faith in god's law, but plenty of faith in 'Sod's Law !!"

 

[Jazzer]

Hi @Jazzer have you noticed mindfulness helping with the depression and anxiety aspects at all?

Hi Elfin

In answer to your query.
People have said that meditation is not possible when you have Tinnitus, because of the noise.
That is not true, certainly for me.

I'll cut and paste my method before I say anything else.


How to cure stress.

How to stop teeth grinding. (Bruxism.)
Bruxism results from stress held in the mouth.
It is a fighting response to tension and anxiety.
It feeds both of these aspects.
Unfortunately, I have to tell you that relaxation of mind and body is not possible with that response.
So you have to address this sooner or later.

It is relatively easy to correct this problem, however.
Given that we have Tinnitus, relaxation and meditation are still possible.

*How to approach deep relaxation.

Sit quietly in your chair.
Assume the demeanour of a baby.
With your lips closed, allow your jaw to hang comfortably loose, your teeth apart.
Allow the inside of your mouth to relax and go quite quite soft.
Allow your throat to soften.
Become aware that your tongue is now floating in water.
Just continue with your gentle breathing

*(As a habit for life, try to become aware of where your tongue is - it should always be floating gently in water, never pushed up against the roof of your mouth.
Teeth should close only when eating!)

——————————————————-
*How to approach meditation.
(the next step)

Sit quietly.
Breath gently for a few breaths.
Then, take a long deep breath in through the nose - and out through the mouth.
Close the lips with jaws apart.
No more consciously controlled breathing after this point.
Ask your tummy to take over your breathing for you, and just wait for that to start up.
Do not decide to inhale - just wait for it.
Magically, automatic reflexes will do this for you, breathing through the nose.
Sit quietly just observing your reflex breathing.
With each exhalation just 'think' the word deeper - deeper - deeper - deeper......
as you quietly drift away.

It is not essentially something you have to do,
It is something you undo."

————————————————-

When you start to go into a meditative state you will hear your sounds without any distraction.
Some people find this disconcerting, because it seems full on confrontational.
The beauty of this concept is that for once, you are not attempting (futilely) to avoid your "T."
It is there....but you are going into a relaxed state, and providing your tummy (diaphragmatic) breathing has taken over, within just a few seconds you can be drifting away, and can become unaware of the sounds, and way beyond panic and despair.

If this plan does not pan out to start with, please do not give up - you will get there if you persevere.
The lasting advantage is that you will eventually reach the stage where you simply hear your sounds, but are desensitised to the point where you can accept your sounds without recourse to both panic and despair.

Good luck and best wishes,

Dave x
Jazzer

PS - as it is instructional Elfin, I didn't try to shorten it.
The whole process is perfectly straight forward really, just takes a bit of explaining.

 

[Greg Sacramento]

@Jazzer You try to practice safe treatments and some of the best that can done for older people is relaxing the body, drinking water for cell care, a good diet, some light exercise or PT, hearing aides, low sound therapy - not to live in total silence. Interaction with other people even by use of a forum like this helps.

Sunshine is important as it's a mood, fear stabilizer and a good way to get natural vitamin D. Patients do better in hospitals and other care settings that have large windows in their rooms. I now only use only magnesium/calcium for a spike as other treatments have more side effects that would mess with my physical problems. One of those other treatments is noted by the FDA as possible more harmful than using controlled use of a benzo or AD short term.

Life is unpredictable and just in one day many variables can chance the course and direction of life. Maybe if the telephone rang from a wrong number call you could have been delayed from meeting the lady that you married. I was trading a one dollar biotech stock over and over one day and I accidently clicked onto another site where a lady had written an article on child psychology safety. I decided to contact her and then we talked by email for three months before we meet. It turned out that she lived downtown Sacramento thirty minutes from me. She finally agreed to meet me and then two years later we got married.

People can chance from both good and bad influence. How a person progresses in life with both mind and body can have influence from others that can relate to power, control and systems. This is not always the best for a person's self, but often we just don't know what is best for our direction in life other than daily hygiene.

Reading the life of the Ernest Hemingway family and comparing that to the poem by Robert Frost - Miles To Go Before I Sleep. In a first year English class we were given three of those blue books and given one hour to answer why Frost wrote this poem. We were told to read this poem over and over in different settings one month before our exam. I answered that Frost wrote this poem for his friend Ernest Hemingway about life and life is what it is. Then handed my blue book to the professor and walked out of the classroom.

The psychology of life has so many variables, so the --- if 's, ands, buts --- of our past is part of all of us. Being a complete winner in life is impossible. Dave, please continue to humor us with your cartoons and such because life can't be placed into words alone.

Just some thoughts - I know nothing and I certainly never had a crystal ball.

 

[Jazzer]

life can't be placed into words alone.

We share some similarities Greg.
We both love musing on philosophical ideas and such, and coming up with our own personal take on things.
Getting my concepts in order is quite crucial to me, particularly when the hard times come.
I need to know if I am thinking right, thinking well, or sometimes, thinking at all.
Very much like 'keeping all my ducks in a row.'

Great story on how you chanced on your misus.

Mine is similar. My lovely misus was married to a top oilman geophysicist, headhunted by all the top companies.
They came to London with his job, they were very wealthy; she had no need to work, but because her three little kids were now at school, she fancied working part time in a quaint retail shop.
I placed a postcard advert in the local newsagents window, looking for a sales lady.
There were about 50 ads in this window.
How could I make my ad stand out?
I bought a four colour ball point pen, and drew a multicoloured asterisk on the ad.
It was the only ad to take her eye.

She decided that if she could remember the phone number when she got home, she would ring
Caterham 34157.
One hour later I was telephone interviewing a charming Dutch lady, though with a Canadian accent (bought up in Vancouver) for my job.

I hired her over the phone.
She couldn't believe it - "but you haven't even seen me?"

Me. "I don't need to - you're lovely!"
And she was.
Here she is working in my shop in 1979.

We must chat again Greg.
Nice to get away from doomy stuff, and back to real life.
Dave x

 

[Jazzer]

Hi @Jazzer have you noticed mindfulness helping with the depression and anxiety aspects at all?

Hi Elfin

Somebody else asked me about the possibility of mindfulness/meditation helping them with their "T."

I decided to 'kill two birds with one stone.'

Sorry if I bored you witless.
Dave
Jazzer

 

[Starthrower]

@Jazzer you could never bore anyone witless!!!

It turned out that she lived downtown Sacramento thirty minutes from me. She finally agreed to meet me and then two years later we got married.

I like your love story...

I remember having two different job offers. If I had chosen the other I would have never met my husband. I swear to god I have this spirit guide that takes me to the exact right place. Because I seem to always end up in the right place.

 

[Lane]

I need to know if I am thinking right, thinking well, or sometimes, thinking at all.

Hey Dave,

Hmmmm, it seems to me that would put you in the minority! ​

 

[Jazzer]

Hey Dave,

Hmmmm, it seems to me that would put you in the minority! ​

 

[Jazzer]

The way meditation helps Tinnitus is this:

When you sit/lay quietly and listen to your sounds, you will not like them.

However - as you allow your tummy to completely take over your breathing for you (involuntary breathing) you will calm down and begin to feel deeply relaxed.
When it is working well you will drift off to a place of safety.
In this deeply relaxed state there is no fear.
Fear is gone and replaced with comfort and 'ease.'

Later in the day at times when your 'T' is obtrusive, aggravating even, you may well feel that the fear aspect has been decommissioned.

Dave x

 

[Greg Sacramento]

Just some thoughts on medications, vitamins, herbs or anything taken by mouth for either tinnitus, physical conditions or both. Conditions - anything taken by mouth for a physical condition that may relate to a person's tinnitus. Anything by mouth that may help tinnitus but may make a physical condition worse. Anything by mouth that may help a physical condition but make tinnitus worse.


Vitamins C in large mg doses needs to carefully studied for those with a history of kidney stones as only one example of something taken by mouth.

Many vitamins need to be taken with other vitamins to be effective. A vitamin can deplete another vitamin.
Some medications are better to take with certain vitamins and others not.

There isn't many things that be can taken by mouth to help tinnitus unless a physical condition is involved.
There are many studies on vitamins per tinnitus where studies say either they are helpful or useless. None of these studies include possible thousands of physical conditions that may associate with tinnitus.

Zinc and ginkgo biloba are two examples where research study shows either being helpful for tinnitus or totally useless. A present physical condition must be considered if zinc will help with that, thus then tinnitus. Zinc as one vitamin has benefits for certain physical conditions. The problem with most studies is that not all tinnitus studies of vitamins include those with a physical condition where zinc or another vitamin may help. A vitamin may help a physical condition if there is system lacking of that vitamin. Certain physical conditions such as being related to infection or toxic activity can deplete a vitamin. There's certain conditions where a certain vitamin in excessive use can cause more harm.

Magnesium can benefit a noise exposure if taken with other vitamins and calcium needs to be taken with magnesium. NAC can also help as NAC has few side effects, but NAC is often not recommended if one has heart disease or somatic issues where stress may be an added involvement. When magnesium spikes someone's tinnitus it can relate to a certain physical condition or if may be a side effect such as a sensitive stomach.

Lots of very involved research should be taken for anything taken by mouth. Physical history should be considered. Blood tests are helpful for vitamin levels. Before taking anything - all physical conditions and physical history should be considered. This would mean researching a physical condition with comparison to whatever pill you want to take. One may need to review 10, 20 or more professional medical articles on a condition before they have all the information needed.

 

[Greg Sacramento]

The way meditation helps Tinnitus is this:

When you sit/lay quietly and listen to your sounds, you will not like them.

However - as you allow your tummy to completely take over your breathing for you (involuntary breathing) you will calm down and begin to feel deeply relaxed.
When it is working well you will drift off to a place of safety.
In this deeply relaxed state there is no fear.
Fear is gone and replaced with comfort and 'ease.'

Later in the day at times when your 'T' is obtrusive, aggravating even, you may well feel that the fear aspect has been decommissioned.

Dave x

I'm more focused on fear, sorrow and physical pain than my loud sounds. My painful physical nerve damage within my mouth will never go away. I can't bring back my cat that I miss so much. I think of Danny and those with physical pain that will never post again. I saw suffering and death almost every day from 1982 to 2010. And now it's not any easier.

 

[Jazzer]

I'm more focused on fear, sorrow and physical pain than my loud sounds. My painful physical nerve damage within my mouth will never go away. I can't bring back my cat that I miss so much. I think of Danny and those with physical pain that will never post again. I saw suffering and death almost every day from 1982 to 2010. And now it's not any easier.

I agree Greg - these hateful conditions have turned our lives into endurance courses.
I guess we just have to find some pleasures that are still possible to us.....relationships, friendships, gentle music, perhaps, reading....etc....
giving up is not in my nature.
I wish you so much better my friend,
love
Dave x
Jazzer

 

[Lane]

My painful physical nerve damage within my mouth will never go away.

Hi Greg -- Not to necessarily encourage you... But thought you might find interesting my anecdote of dealing with decades of chronic pain--mostly headaches. There was little that could help them over many years, except perhaps movement like walking. Pain medication actually seemed to exacerbate it. I got a bit of occasional and temporary relief from various manipulative procedures.

It wasn't until I began to regularly do coffee enemas (CEs) that I was able to achieve very consistent relief on a daily basis. My experience seems to fall in line with what German medics noticed when they used coffee enemas prior to surgery. The outcomes were much better, and post surgical pain control was much greater. I made a lengthy post on that subject recently.

CEs give me significant neck and headache relief 99% of the time, which I think were caused by structural issues, AND issues of inflammation. I spent years walking around feeling as if I had pressure in my head--akin to having my head in a vice grip. CEs helped for many years, and then I discovered a DMSO/Magnesium Oil mixture applied to my neck and head reduced my pain even further.

My current pain levels generally speaking are about 90% reduced from what they used to be. They can still flare occasionally, but they are mostly a non-factor. -- Having the atlasprofilax done also helped considerably, which has also been reported to have helped some people considerably with their tinnitus.

MSM has also been shown to be VERY effective for some people's pain. It's chemically similar to DMSO, and I would assume the pain reduction is at least partially due to the sulfur content in each. -- All the Best!

 

[Lane]

@Greg Sacramento, -- Just ran across the following snippet--at THIS LINK--and it reminded me of your situation, so thought I'd post it real quick... --
-
Riley Poor had been on bedrest for months trying to heal a pressure sore. He had grown so accustomed to the nerve pain and spasms he dealt with that they were beginning to seem normal. That's when his partner, Andrea Peruzzi, suggested he look into hyperbaric oxygen therapy.... -- Poor, a C5-6 quad who lives in Portland, Oregon, went ahead and signed up for 13 hours in the closest chamber he could find. "... as I got to hour nine or 10 of therapy, I started realizing that I had a dramatic reduction in nerve pain and my spasms were so much better,"
-
Here's a link to a 50-MIN. video I just watched this morning that explains in-depth some of the realistic physiologic things to expect from HBOT therapy. One part of it refers to the amazingly positive impact it has on the visual cortex. Made me think it could be just as affective for the auditory cortex as well. -- The speaker is a doctor who runs an HBOT clinic in Madison, WI, and got interested in it when his autistic son made tremendous progress with it. -- Best!

P.S. -- I'm currently looking at some Summit to Sea (brand) HBOT chambers. It's made me realize a home chamber can be quite a bit less expensive ($4-$10K new--less for used) than I had thought (w/o sacrificing quality), and expect to be making a purchase in the coming weeks.

 

[Dr Fritz]

Tracyjs... I can relate. I am severe bi-polar I and take many of the medications listed as a matter of course. I have noticed zero effects +/-. My thoughts are to try and compartmentalize your T and anxiety. I have had to do (and still do) this daily. Allowing T to play into anxiety causes the " death trap" it sounds as of you are in. Once I was able to get my head meds straight I could focus more clearly on finding a T remedy. Taking on both at once is like eating an elephant... All of us are in the same boat ..... please don't give up, together we will find answers...

 

[Wolfears]

Here is what I would be concerned with the most, if faced with the decision whether to use benzos or not.

Over time, human body will develop tolerance, therefore an upward adjustment in dosage needs to be made every so often, in order to compensate (this would no doubt vary from person to person).
So in theory, once the safe upper limit for the drug is reached, there is now no place to go.
They can't go up, can't ho down and the drug is no longer effective.

A person with severe Tinnitus in this situation would be pretty much trapped, because he/she is now addicted to benzos (reportedly worst than addiction to heroin) and any attempt at the way back would be accompanied with massive spikes.
A person who's already dealing with severe Tinnitus is unlikely to go down that road...so now what?

This would make strategic sense if we knew that a cure is couple of years away..
Theoretically speaking the sufferer could ride out the gap with the help of benzos, then cure the Tinnitus and then deal with the benzo addiction, without having to deal with spikes.
But being that at this point the cure is elusive at best, I don't think getting into benzos is a good idea...just my opinion.

 

[RSV]

First of all I cannot get any. It realy helped me last time. Lozarapam. So If i had some I would take one ever 6 months not to build up tolerance. And they will quit working. And take herbals to keep it low. But no doctor will give them out. Too addictive. Jackson died taking some. My mother got me a bottle of pills in her name. It is not Lozerapam. They would not give her anymore. Ever. No benzos. And I'm 43 years old and no doctor will give my not 1 pill of anything. Tinnitus is my problem so they say. So I bet they would sneak and write them a presciption if they had this stuff.

 

[Lane]

One thing that might be worth considering: Most of the negative effects from benzos stem from long-term use. I suspect that if they were used judiciously, and reserved for spikes or especially difficult times, those long-term risks could for the most part be eliminated.

I would think 1-2x/week would probably be OK, while at the same time being vigilant of whether even that small amount was beginning to lead to a dependency. -- That's essentially what I do with Tylenol 4 (which contains codeine). I only take a 1/4 tablet 1-2x / week, and it works well for me. Haven't tried the same thing with a benzo however.
-
BTW, I recently read that long-term use of benzos has been associated with increased hip fractures in the elderly (25% of the elderly take benzos). I think it was because of increased incidence of falls, as well as the effects of the drug on bone strength and density.