Coronavirus (SARS-CoV-2 / COVID-19) and Tinnitus

[Ed209]

I have to say @Ed209, your unduly pessimistic reply caught me off guard. Quite honestly, I can't really make sense out of some of your comments. Such as, you say Vitamin C orally will not stop the virus. I'm not sure where you got that from, because oral Vit. C definitely has antiviral properties, and will almost assuredly have a degree of positive effect for most people. -- I've read it's actually easier to maintain high levels of Vit. C in the body than using IV Vit. C.

I have spoken to a few frontline Drs about this today (during video lessons) and none of them said that vitamin c would stop this virus - which is what is required to stop the spread of it to vulnerable people. There's one study currently ongoing in China, regarding IV infusion, which doesn't conclude until September. I've been told there are several trials being run concurrently at the hospital where they work which are collecting data from every patient with established anti-viral drugs. At best, high levels of oral vitamin c may reduce symptoms by up to half a day/a day, but it will not stop people from spreading it and it will not stop severe complications from forming such as SARI or pneumonia. I don't want to make this post too long, but I'll add some relevant information below:

The TGA is aware of a report that intravenous high-dose vitamin C may be beneficial in the management of a COVID-19 infection.

We have investigated this report and found there is no robust scientific evidence to support the usage of this vitamin in the management of COVID-19.

No published peer-reviewed studies in the medical literature were found to support the usage of this vitamin for COVID-19. We are aware of some studies underway in certain countries and should these be positive, the TGA would welcome the submission of an application for vitamin C in treating COVID-19, accompanied and supported by appropriate research.

Two recently published open-label studies relating to the use of vitamin C in other types of infections, associated with septic shock and acute respiratory distress syndrome (ARDS), were identified and reviewed. In both of these studies, where vitamin C was used as monotherapy (used alone) or in combination with other products, there was no clear evidence of benefit. It cannot be concluded that intravenous vitamin C is an effective treatment of ARDS (resulting from COVID-19, or otherwise).

https://www.tga.gov.au/alert/no-evidence-support-intravenous-high-dose-vitamin-c-management-covid-19

With the 2019 novel coronavirus (2019-nCoV) outbreak now spreading across the world, people are seeking ways in which to potentially protect themselves from the virus or to alleviate its effects once caught. One such means that is being touted online and in the media is vitamin C.

The investigators of the new study hope to complete the trial by the end of September. Although the findings of this trial will be too late for the many thousands of people currently infected with the virus, the study will nevertheless provide valuable information as to the potential mitigation of symptoms by vitamin C during future viral outbreaks.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7137406/

We hypothize that Vitamin C infusion can help improve the prognosis of patients with SARI. Therefore, it is necessary to study the clinical efficacy and safety of vitamin C for the clinical management of SARI through randomized controlled trials during the current epidemic of SARI.

https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT04264533

Myth 7: Vitamin C tablets prevent COVID-19

Vitamin C is a known anti-oxidant. It prevents damage to tissue in the body by neutralising free radicals, which are charged particles that cause damage to cells and tissues and result in inflammation. Vitamin C is also known to protect against pathogens.

But there is no proof that vitamin C can prevent one from contracting COVID-19 though there are trials being undertaken on the use of vitamin C among COVID-19 patient. None has provided conclusive proof.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/thec...rounds-in-africa-about-the-coronavirus-135580

Claims vitamin C can prevent or cure COVID-19 unfounded, experts warn

TORONTO -- Reports that hospitals are turning to high doses of intravenous vitamin C to treat patients with severe cases of COVID-19 have reignited claims that the vitamin can prevent or cure cases of the novel coronavirus.

Though vitamin C has long been touted as an immune-boosting vitamin, experts warn that its potential for treating coronavirus has not been proven. In fact, there is conflicting evidence to support the vitamin's use as a treatment for the common cold or flu.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/beta.ctvnews.ca/national/2020/3/31/1_4875757.html

I've heard that high-dose vitamin C is being used to treat patients with COVID-19. Does it work? And should I take vitamin C to prevent infection with the COVID-19 virus?

Some critically ill patients with COVID-19 have been treated with high doses of intravenous (IV) vitamin C in the hope that it will hasten recovery. However, there is no clear or convincing scientific evidence that it works for COVID-19 infections, and it is not a standard part of treatment for this new infection. A study is underway in China to determine if this treatment is useful for patients with severe COVID-19; results are expected in the fall.

The idea that high-dose IV vitamin C might help in overwhelming infections is not new. A 2017 study found that high-dose IV vitamin C treatment (along with thiamine and corticosteroids) appeared to prevent deaths among people with sepsis, a form of overwhelming infection causing dangerously low blood pressure and organ failure. Another study published last year assessed the effect of high-dose vitamin C infusions among patients with severe infections who had sepsis and acute respiratory distress syndrome (ARDS), in which the lungs fill with fluid. While the study's main measures of improvement did not improve within the first four days of vitamin C therapy, there was a lower death rate at 28 days among treated patients. Though neither of these studies looked at vitamin C use in patients with COVID-19, the vitamin therapy was specifically given for sepsis and ARDS, and these are the most common conditions leading to intensive care unit admission, ventilator support, or death among those with severe COVID-19 infections.

Regarding prevention, there is no evidence that taking vitamin C will help prevent infection with the coronavirus that causes COVID-19. While standard doses of vitamin C are generally harmless, high doses can cause a number of side effects, including nausea, cramps, and an increased risk of kidney stones.

https://www.health.harvard.edu/diseases-and-conditions/treatments-for-covid-19

As I said, I'm on the fence about the efficacy of treating severely affected people with high dose IV vitamin c, because there are conflicting anecdotal reports from experts.

You make a comment about people "can't even be bothered to brush their teeth". (???) What percentage of the people would you say that is? A top of my head best estimate is that percentage would be way less than 1% of the population. Perhaps similar to the less than 1% of people who believe 5g causes the coronavirus. Which would lead me to ask, "why are you placing so much emphasis on fringe people"? It truly does puzzle me, as it seems to be at the expense of putting our attention on what important factors might actually help manage this pandemic, so we can (ASAP) make people safer, and get the world economy going again.

That was just a poor attempt of mine to highlight how incredibly difficult it is to control human behaviour, en mass, especially where a dangerous virus is involved. I personally believe a full lockdown should have been done in the UK early on in an attempt to nip it in the bud before it had the chance to spread exponentially. I don't know what the percentages would be, but generally speaking, at times like these where warnings are given, people just don't listen.

Take a look at these ridiculous pictures of when a golden hour was introduced to allow the old and vulnerable to shop before the crowds arrived:

People are unpredictable, selfish, and generally don't give a shit in many situations.

"significant risk of people hurting themselves or even killing themselves using chemicals such as hydrogen peroxide" -- This might be one of the most perplexing things you said. It's been found that .5% hydrogen peroxide solution is all it takes to kill the coronavirus, which is about 1/6 the strength of regular 3% OTC H2O2.

Hydrogen peroxide is toxic if ingested, and if you're expecting the whole population to use this stuff than you have to expect mistakes to happen far more than in its common usage. Especially with something as emotive as a virus that needs to be contained. It doesn't make sense to me, and if this is all it would take to save the economy of the world then I'm sure someone somewhere would be on this already.

Regarding medical grade ozone, if a person doesn't want to do it for themselves (it's not that hard), perhaps they can go to a health care facility to have it done for them.

As I said in my previous post. It's the logistics. How many ozone machines are there in the world? You would need an extraordinary amount of them today, right now, which isn't going to happen. One for every household or so. Also, how are people supposed to know when they are infectious? And how do we know that it stops the virus from spreading? And again, controlling people's behaviour is massively unpredictable. Even if it worked flawlessly, how could you ensure that every individual at a workplace had properly administered it, or administered it at all? It doesn't take many people for an outbreak to explode in numbers again. I would consider this wishful thinking.

You say you don't think people would follow a protocol similar to anything I outlined. I'd actually be surprised if they wouldn't if people in leadership positions advocated for it. People all over the world are currently practising social distancing and wearing masks. Why would they not use other measures that would help save themselves from a serious illness or death--or, get back to work?

People can't even follow the protocol to stay at home whilst getting paid (UK), and in a lot of countries, they are having to fine people and use police force. I would not entrust the lives of my family on the basis that other people are following an unproven protocol. I would stay at home because I'd know there'd be too many infectious people out there.

If there was a feasible way of navigating this mess other than locking people down, we'd have heard about it by now. The worlds economy is worth circa $80 trillion and this wouldn't grind to a halt on a whim. If vitamin c or hydrogen peroxide was all it took to halt the spread of the coronavirus, then you can be damn sure they'd be forcing this stuff down our throats. There are no easy solutions to this problem. Most countries have gone into lockdown as this has obviously been decided upon as the best course of action by the leading experts in the world. It's highly doubtful that any of us discussing it here know more than they do. And if not, they better join Tinnitus Talk, stat!

Well that turned out to be longer than I initially intended . Sorry folks.

 

[Ed209]

One thing I will give you though, Lane, you certainly have passion.

 

[Ed209]

@Lane, I was going to elaborate more on the hydrogen peroxide thing above, but couldn't be bothered at the time, but I figured, what the hell. The post above was long enough so I may as well give my extended thoughts on this.

It appears to be another alternative medicine fad that is widely criticised. I've read countless reports in newspapers about people killing themselves by doing such stupid things like inhaling or ingesting hydrogen peroxide. Anyone can find these reports online.

It also appears that Joseph Mercola has a hand in its popularity, which is no surprise. He is a dangerous man.

Embarrassing Bodies host Dr Christian Jessen calls US colleague a 'SHAMELESS f****** crook' for recommending a DIY ventilator to treat coronavirus

Self-described 'TV doctor' Christian Jessen called a US colleague a 'shameless f****** crook' for recommending a DIY ventilator to treat the deadly coronavirus.

The Embarrassing Bodies host launched an attack on 'heath activist' Doctor Joseph Mercola on Twitter, after he advised that people try 'nebulized hydrogen peroxide therapy' to tackle the virus.

The American doctor said all a person would need to make this work is a 'nebulizer' - a device that converts medication into a fine mist - and a face mask to cover a person's mouth and nose.

Mercola went on to say that a 'common household hydrogen peroxide, available at most grocery stores and pharmacies' was also necessary.

But Jessen, 43, reported Mercola for 'spreading dangerous bulls**t' and took to Twitter to publicly call him a 'shameless f****** crook'.

Other Twitter users and followers of Jessen's joined him in condemning the dangerous practice.

One person wrote: 'I reported it this morning. As did several others. It's still there?'

While another wrote: 'Wow I can't believe he's telling people to breathe in bleach.'

Another person wrote: 'Shocking with so many reports that @TwitterSafety haven't blocked them yet.'

And yet another wrote in response: 'This is going to kill people.....this will actually kill people.'

American doctor Mercola wrote on Twitter on 9 April: 'Nebulized hydrogen peroxide therapy is an inexpensive and simple way to treat most viral respiratory illnesses.

'All you need is a nebulizer with a face mask that covers your mouth and nose, and common household hydrogen peroxide, available at most grocery stores and pharmacies.'

On 12 April Jessen wrote in response: 'You are a SHAMELESS f****** crook. Reported for spreading dangerous bulls**t.'

Mercola is 'no stranger' to controversy and has in his career been reported by medical watchdog website, Quackwatch for his claims, according to a report in The Sun.

According to The Sun's report, the US Food and Drug Administration has also issued warnings to the US doctor 'multiple times' about illegal claims made about his products' ability to treat illness.

In March, he was called a 'd***head' and told to 'f*** off' by Italian footballer Ciro Immobile, over offensive comments the celebrity doctor made about Italians using the pandemic as an excuse to 'shut down everything' and have a 'long siesta'.

Appearing on FUBAR Radio's 'Access All Areas', Jessen said: 'This might be a little bit racist to say this, [and] you'll have to make apologies, but do you not think it's a bit of an excuse?' - according to The Sun's report.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www....ue-f-crook-DIY-ventilator-treat-Covid-19.html

Hydrogen peroxide is essentially a poison that has very specific uses. I think it sets a dangerous precedent to have people inhaling or ingesting this stuff to tackle the coronavirus. As I said initially, it can injure or even kill people, so I find the idea absurd.

 

[Bill Bauer]

It seems to me like you and I are politically opposed in our views of UBI, and yet we might both agree to some kind of "newer deal" where people were put to work rebuilding the parts of the US infrastructure which have become dangerously aged in the last 60 years? Stuff like bridges, dams, facilities relevant to national security, nuclear storage and weapons facilities, etc?

Sorry about the delay in replying to your message.

To answer your question - any investment that has a positive net benefit (when we take its costs including the foregone benefit that we could have received if we were to spend the money on the best alternative available to us into account) is a good investment. If this criterion implies that the infrastructure would have needed to be replaced anyway sometime in the next 5-10 years, then it might be a good idea to go ahead with the project now.

If Texas really goes ahead and goes back to life as normal before their curve has peaked, we're going to learn a lot about how much of this was an overreaction vs a very reasonable response to something that can trivially overwhelm urban HC resources.

It will be interesting to find out how it all plays out.

then my personal starting gambit would be to compensate unemployed 2019 taxpayers an amount commiserate with their earnings

How do you propose to pay for this?

Also, where are these numbers coming from? In other words, we both agree that 3M per months is too much. But we want to pay the highest amount that will not be having detrimental effects. Are you saying that $3000 per month or 2019 monthly earnings are below this level? Why not double those amounts to $6000 and twice the 2019 monthly earnings?

 

[PaulBe]

He also said since Chloroquine is strong enough for the "Malaria virus" he feels good about it for COVID.

That's frighteningly hilarious.

 

[PhoenixAcademy]

Are you saying that you are not?!

Not as much as a confrontation with China in the South China Sea.

 

[PhoenixAcademy]

Myth 7: Vitamin C tablets prevent COVID-19

Vitamin C is a known anti-oxidant. It prevents damage to tissue in the body by neutralising free radicals, which are charged particles that cause damage to cells and tissues and result in inflammation. Vitamin C is also known to protect against pathogens.

But there is no proof that vitamin C can prevent one from contracting COVID-19 though there are trials being undertaken on the use of vitamin C among COVID-19 patient. None has provided conclusive proof.

You do realize that before there was proof of Uranus it was widely hypothesized that it did exist right?

Now we do know for a fact that Uranus is leaking gas.

https://www.sciencealert.com/uranus-atmosphere-is-leaking-gas-into-space

 

[linearb]

You might as well arm your wife with an AK-101 chambered for .223 and .556 with multiple 30 round magazines, pistol grip, rails, a flashlight, and red dot sights if you're that worried.

You have made a whole bunch of assumptions predicated on the idea that this is primarily a carry weapon or that we carry firearms in general. It's not a carry weapon; she does not carry a gun. These are a mix of recreational and farm-utility oriented weapons.

I don't need to train my wife to do anything, she shoots more accurately and with more discipline than 75% of the people we've been shooting with

Factory glock triggers are at 6-7lbs, I think you would only call that a "hair trigger" if you are, say, an undertrained NYPD officer in need of excuses for a ND.

Unsure why you feel so strongly about this. I find with pistols and motorcycles both, ergonomics are everything. I wanted a SV650 until I sat on one and thought "no way". My wife has fired, I don't know, some high double or low triple digit number of different weapons, this is hardly an uniformed decision

 

[Ed209]

You do realize that before there was proof of Uranus it was widely hypothesized that it did exist right?

Now we do know for a fact that Uranus is leaking gas.

https://www.sciencealert.com/uranus-atmosphere-is-leaking-gas-into-space

Are you saying that vitamin c tablets will stop the spread of the coronavirus?

I feel like I'm on my own with this one on here.

By the way, I'm fully aware that many ideas face fierce scrutiny, or often ridicule, before being proven right. However, saying that vitamin c will make a meaningful difference to how this virus spreads really is nonsense. It won't. We should all be eating a healthy diet anyway, so supplementing is more for those whose diets are deficient.

 

[linearb]

Sorry about the delay in replying to your message.

To answer your question - any investment that has a positive net benefit (when we take its costs including the foregone benefit that we could have received if we were to spend the money on the best alternative available to us into account) is a good investment. If this criterion implies that the infrastructure would have needed to be replaced anyway sometime in the next 5-10 years, then it might be a good idea to go ahead with the project now.

I wish we had an administration that could see this, because it's unquestionable that we're dealing with ailing infrastructure in huge swaths of the interstate and power grid, and without interventions I expect bridge failures and less reliable electricity over time.

How do you propose to pay for this?

Also, where are these numbers coming from? In other words, we both agree that 3M per months is too much. But we want to pay the highest amount that will not be having detrimental effects. Are you saying that $3000 per month or 2019 monthly earnings are below this level? Why not double those amounts to $6000 and twice the 2019 monthly earnings?

Some combination of taxes, spending cuts, pulling money from other programs, and printing money as necessary. I'd start by handing a lot more of the current 2 trillion package to families, rather than putting it on employers as a bribe to continue paying people through this.

I was less concerned with "paying the highest amount that won't have detrimental effects", than "paying the minimum amount which will allow the economy to continue moving". So, my assumption was, if the median income in a state is $50,000, if you give the average household 1/12 of that per month, that is on average allowing them to pay rent/mortgage/whatever.

I agree that's blurry, but thinking about the $1200 number -- that wouldn't have paid even a single month's rent for a 500 sq ft one bedroom I once occupied in DC, but it would have paid for a month and a half of rent, utilities, gas, internet, and everything else for a 700 sq ft 2 bedroom that I lived in in a more poor city.

In any case, these hurried, flat-rate one time payments seem like a bad idea to me, especially given that a lot of the people who likely need the money the most did not do a direct-deposit of their 2019 refund and therefore are going to wait 4-20 weeks to get a check.

Another thought: it's entirely possible, maybe likely, that a lot of jobs that go away here never come back. I don't mean, a restaurant closes so people can't go work for that specific restaurant; I mean, restaurants and storefronts close, people get used to online and delivery taking their place, and then as we move back towards a more "open" society -- people are still going to be skiddish about contact, for quite a while, and are going to have all these newly established habits based on shopping and other kinds of services from home.

Of course people like to do things in the public sphere, but, they're also saying things like "probably no big concerts through 2021 a lot of places". So, big bands will find ways to do telepresence shows and sell online tickets, and that will also be something that continues to stick around to some extent.

We were already on a trajectory of internet services of one kind or another disrupting brick & mortars, obviously, since the late 1990s. This event seems to have radically accelerated existing trends, which means I don't think we're going to slide back as much afterwards as you'd expect if this was creating new behaviors and not just emphasizing existing ones.

So, if that's the case, then we're also gonna have to figure out how to deal with huge unemployment numbers. I'm seeing 12% as the rosy projection for summer time blues.

I feel like I'm on my own with this one on here.

You have my 100% support, I just make a base level assumption that people operating from a reality based perspective, who have been around the bend on alt-health communities enough, have had enough exposure to all the lunacy around vitamin C to be pretty woke on it. It's not very interesting for me to talk about because there's nothing real to debate there; it's conspiracy theory territory and most of the supposed science behind it makes as much sense as the Zetetic Astronomy math that flat-earth people jump on.

 

[PhoenixAcademy]

Are you saying that vitamin c tablets will stop the spread of the coronavirus?

What kind of a Rube Goldberg machine of a thought process takes "Uranus is leaking gas" as an input and outputs "Vitamin C treats Coronavirus"?

 

[Ed209]

What kind of a Rube Goldberg machine of a thought process takes "Uranus is leaking gas" as an input and outputs "Vitamin C treats Coronavirus"?

You directly quoted a part of my post which had this headline, "Myth 7: Vitamin C tablets prevent COVID-19," and then replied with a cryptic message about how people hypothesised that Uranus existed before there was proof.

What else am I supposed to take away from that? That is why I phrased my response as a question.

What was the point to your post as I clearly missed it?

 

[PhoenixAcademy]

You directly quoted a part of my post which had this headline, "Myth 7: Vitamin C tablets prevent COVID-19," and then replied with a cryptic message about how people hypothesised that Uranus existed before there was proof.

What else am I supposed to take away from that? That is why I phrased my response as a question.

What was the point to your post as I clearly missed it?

I never said it does or doesn't. They are testing large dose vitamin C for coronavirus in New York hospitals right now and there is no up or down answer yet. So stop acting like an authority on the topic.

 

[FGG]

I never said it does or doesn't. They are testing large dose vitamin C for coronavirus in New York hospitals right now and there is no up or down answer yet. So stop acting like an authority on the topic.

In fairness to @Ed209, his skepticism isn't said with any more authority than people claiming it definitely works.

 

[Ed209]

I never said it does or doesn't. They are testing large dose vitamin C for coronavirus in New York hospitals right now and there is no up or down answer yet. So stop acting like an authority on the topic.

You obviously haven't read my posts. I didn't say that mega-dosing vitamin c intravenously - as a treatment for severe cases - wouldn't work. I said I was on the fence as there's no clear evidence, yet. I also stated that I have no authority on any of this and that I am merely sharing my opinion, like anyone else. I think the idea of inhaling hydrogen peroxide is not only stupid but dangerous, though.

You brought up the oral vitamin c side of the debate to which I'm clearly in disagreement with. I think it demeans the current global situation to suggest that oral vitamin c can make a difference.

It's just my two cents. We're all here to give our thoughts and opinions, so you're free to disagree. It's fine.

 

[Ed209]

In fairness to @Ed209, his skepticism isn't said with any more authority than people claiming it definitely works.

I tried to make it clear, a few times, that I have no idea if large doses of intravenous vitamin c will help people with severe cases of Covid-19. The fact is, nobody does yet. That's all I'm highlighting.

My opinion on whether it will work or not is pretty much mute anyway; it carries no weight and has no significance.

 

[ajc]

OVER £2MILLION RAISED

https://www.justgiving.com/fundraising/tomswalkforthenhs

 

[Ed209]

OVER £2MILLION RAISED

https://www.justgiving.com/fundraising/tomswalkforthenhs

I also saw that Lady Gaga has raised $35m by going straight to corporate leaders and philanthropists. She is also holding a concert:

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www....ho-announces-virtual-concert-april-2020-4?amp

 

[PhoenixAcademy]

I really wonder if things like Coronavirus are punishment from God on society for listening to or caring about trash goblins like Lady Gaga.

 

[Ed209]

I really wonder if things like Coronavirus are punishment from God on society for listening to or caring about trash goblins like Lady Gaga.

To be fair to Lady Gaga, she is driven and does a shit load of work for charity which is more than most people do.

 

[PhoenixAcademy]

To be fair to Lady Gaga, she is driven and does a shit load of work for charity which is more than most people do.

She is a marginally talented pop star that has generated mountains of trash that has weakened the quality of our culture.


I guess if you've never heard good music before and are the type of person that keeps celebrity gossip clickbait ads profitable then you might like this rubbish.

THANK YOU LARGE CORPORATIONS FOR YOUR MUSIC

HAND GESTURES

CRAZY COSTUMES

SAMPLERS!!!!!!! AUTOTUNE!!!!!!!!! SKIMPY DANCERS!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Ed209]

She is a marginally talented pop star that has generated mountains of trash that has weakened the quality of our culture.


I guess if you've never heard good music before and are the type of person that keeps celebrity gossip clickbait ads profitable then you might like this rubbish.

THANK YOU LARGE CORPORATIONS FOR YOUR MUSIC

I'm not a fan of Lady Gaga per se, I don't own any of her music for example, but to say she is marginally talented is ridiculous. She is a classically trained pianist who was accepted to study at Juilliard. She also plays the guitar.

She came from nothing and rose to stardom by sheer determination and unbelievable work ethic. The way she presents herself or dresses is her choice. Some of the stuff she has done is bizarre, I admit that, but she clearly understands marketing. She has written all of her albums and she has also released a jazz album with Tony Bennett.

Those who undermine her clearly don't understand music. She is what I'd consider a legit artist amongst a sea of very average pop stars. Songwriting is on the decline as an art form as it is well known that A&R people nowadays only want cookie-cutter songs consisting of I V VI IV progressions. Even compared to 30 years ago, there is a stark difference in the way songs are written and produced. Everything that's released through a mainstream label now is always quantised to within a millimetre of its life. The soul has been stripped away from the original studio performances and we are left with an ultra-programmed feel that has absolutely no character left. Diminished chords and other dissonances have all but disappeared from the modern popular musical landscape, as younger ears are no longer used to hearing such sounds.

I respect her as a person for all she has achieved and for her contributions to charity.

 

[GregCA]

I might have been premature concluding that Sweden isn't doing well.

Time will tell of course... but some experts are starting to weigh in: https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidn...virus-strategy-has-failed-as-deaths-top-1000/

 

[HeavyMantra]

Time will tell of course... but some experts are starting to weigh in: https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidn...virus-strategy-has-failed-as-deaths-top-1000/

As a Swede I'll definetly say I'm tired of my government trying out new things on a nationwide level without clear reasons. Although this makes a bit more sense compared to our immigration policy, and that's saying a lot.

 

[Ed209]

An interesting article on the state of affairs in the UK.

More than one in five deaths in England and Wales is linked to coronavirus, figures show.

The Office for National Statistics said in the week ending 3 April the virus was cited on 3,475 death certificates.

It pushed the total number of deaths in that week to over 16,000 - a record high and 6,000 more than normal at this time of year when deaths tend to fall.

Meanwhile, Chancellor Rushi Sunak acknowledged there were "tough times" ahead economically.

It comes as the Office for Budget Responsibility, the UK's tax and spending watchdog, warned the pandemic could see the economy shrink by a record 35% by June .

Mr Sunak told No 10's daily coronavirus briefing that it was "clear" the situation could be "much worse" without the action taken so far.

But he admitted the government could not "protect every business or household" as it was clear coronavirus would have "serious implications".

And he said the economy would bounce back, adding the "single most important thing is to protect health of everyone".

Spike in deaths 'hugely significant'

The ONS report looked at the impact the numbers of people dying with coronavirus alongside all other deaths.

Normally at this time of year deaths drop because there is less flu circulating than there is in winter.

But instead it jumped up by to a record level of 16,000, the highest number seen since the ONS started publishing data in 2005, topping the biggest weekly toll during the 2015 flu outbreak.

ONS official Nick Stripe said it was clear the coronavirus pandemic had reversed that trend, saying the rising number of deaths was "hugely significant".

"This is not normal," he added.

'Never been as shocked'

But what is not clear is what else is contributing to this spike in deaths - the coronavirus cases contributed just over half of the "extra" 6,000 deaths.

It could be that cases of coronavirus are going undetected or other factors related to the lockdown and outbreak are having an impact, such as people not seeking treatment for other conditions or mental health deaths going up.

Prof Sir David Spiegelhalter, an expert in risk at the University of Cambridge, said this needed investigating.

But he said he had "never been as shocked" as when he saw the scale of the increase in deaths.

"I was upset. It is incredibly vivid. These are people," he said.

The ONS data lags behind the daily death figures reported by the government.

This is because it relies on death certificates, which are only often registered some days after the death, whereas the government figures are compiled from confirmed cases of deaths of patients who have tested positive for coronavirus, which can be gathered more quickly.

The government figures released on Tuesday revealed there had been another 778 deaths, bringing the total to 12,107 by 17:00 BST on Monday.

Another 5,252 people have tested positive for coronavirus, bringing the total number of cases to nearly 94,000 by 09:00 BST on Tuesday.

Edna Summerfield, 94, died earlier this month after testing positive for coronavirus. Her family believes she contracted it at her care home in Birmingham before she went into hospital on 7 April.

Her daughter-in-law Sylvia Summerfield said she feels people in care homes are being neglected - and called for PPE for care home staff as a matter of urgency.

"How many more elderly have got to die in care homes, infected by staff who don't know they have the virus?" she said.

"It is a very difficult time for us and I feel like people in care homes are being neglected.

"My mother in law didn't deserve the death she had. All the other residents are vulnerable in that care home now."


Deaths outside hospitals

The fact the government figures rely on deaths where a patient has tested positive - and in England and Northern Ireland this only covers hospital patients - has led to suggestions there has been an under-reporting of deaths in care homes and other community settings.

The ONS data does look at deaths elsewhere and shows that one in 10 coronavirus deaths this year have been in the community - half, just over 200, have been in care homes.

Age UK says the virus is "running wild" in care homes with Care England, the umbrella body for care homes, estimating there have been nearly 1,000 deaths.

• Elderly being 'airbrushed' out of virus figures

If the reports are right it could be that there has been a spike in deaths over the past fortnight or that death certificates are not picking up all the cases.

The government confirmed there had been coronavirus outbreaks at more than 2,000 care homes in England - although they did not specify the number of deaths that had occurred.

The rest of the article can be seen here:

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/health-52278825

 

[Lane]

In fairness to @Ed209, his skepticism isn't said with any more authority than people claiming it definitely works.

I think it should be pointed out however, that Ed has done little to no research on the value of therapeutic doses of Vitamin C (which I believe he has admitted to). So I think it's important his (misleading IMO) declarative statements on the topic be viewed in that light. He keeps saying "nobody knows", or something to that effect. Based on my many hours of research on this topic spanning the past 15-20 years, there's a whole lot that is known, and for the most part contradicts Ed's dismissive statements.

I've believed for years--and been in agreement with some top Vitamin C researchers--that should a pandemic come along, it was going to be a critical piece in solving the puzzle. There's no reason to "reinvent the wheel" here. The fact that Vitamin C therapy is continuing to show good results (see article below) is a confirmation of those who've believed the science has been there all along. -- BTW, for those who have ever had concerns about "side effects" from vaccinations, supplemental Vitamin C (oral or IV) can almost immediately stop a severe vaccine reaction.
..................................

The following article from yesterday's Los Angeles Times highlights an immunosuppressive drug, but high dose Vitamin C and other therapies were also used. -- Typical to leave out the Vitamin C part in the title of the article.

Emergency room doctor, near death with coronavirus, saved with experimental treatment

Snippet:

"The immune system normally uses proteins called cytokines as weapons in fighting a disease. For unknown reasons in some COVID-19 patients, the immune system first fails to respond quickly enough and then floods the body with cytokines, destroying blood vessels and filling the lungs with fluid.

The doctors tried a drug called Actemra, which was designed to treat rheumatoid arthritis but also approved in 2017 to treat cytokine storms in cancer patients.

"Our role was to quiet the storm," said Dr. Samuel Youssef, a cardiac surgeon. "Dr. Padgett was able to clear the virus" once his immune system was back in balance.

Dr. Matt Hartman, a cardiologist, said that after four days on the immunosuppressive drug, supplemented by high-dose vitamin C and other therapies, the level of oxygen in Padgett's blood improved dramatically. On March 23, doctors were able to take him off life support."​

 

[FGG]

I think it should be pointed out however, that Ed has done little to no research on the value of therapeutic doses of Vitamin C (which I believe he has admitted to). So I think it's important his (misleading IMO) declarative statements on the topic be viewed in that light. He keeps saying "nobody knows", or something to that effect. Based on my many hours of research on this topic spanning the past 15-20 years, there's a whole lot that is known, and for the most part is contradictory to Ed's dismissive statements.

I've believed for years--and been in agreement with some top Vitamin C researchers--that should a pandemic come along, it was going to be a critical piece in solving the puzzle. There's no reason to "reinvent the wheel" here. The fact that Vitamain C therapy is continuing to show good results (see article below) is a confirmation of those who've believed the science has been there all along. -- BTW, for those who have ever had concerns about "side effects" from vaccinations, supplmental Vitamin C (oral or IV) can almost immediately stop a severe vaccine reaction.
..................................

The following article from yesterday's Los Angeles Times highlights an immunosuppressive drug, but high dose Vitamin C and other therapies were also used. -- Typical to leave out the Vitamin C part in the title of the article.

Emergency room doctor, near death with coronavirus, saved with experimental treatment

Snippet:

"The immune system normally uses proteins called cytokines as weapons in fighting a disease. For unknown reasons in some COVID-19 patients, the immune system first fails to respond quickly enough and then floods the body with cytokines, destroying blood vessels and filling the lungs with fluid.

The doctors tried a drug called Actemra, which was designed to treat rheumatoid arthritis but also approved in 2017 to treat cytokine storms in cancer patients.

"Our role was to quiet the storm," said Dr. Samuel Youssef, a cardiac surgeon. "Dr. Padgett was able to clear the virus" once his immune system was back in balance.

Dr. Matt Hartman, a cardiologist, said that after four days on the immunosuppressive drug, supplemented by high-dose vitamin C and other therapies, the level of oxygen in Padgett's blood improved dramatically. On March 23, doctors were able to take him off life support."​

I think there are some indications for high dose Vitamin C. But I think it's more than fair to say it hasn't been proven to prevent or treat Covid-19, even if there are a few anecdotes. Is it not?

 

[Ed209]

I think it should be pointed out however, that Ed has done little to no research on the value of therapeutic doses of Vitamin C (which I believe he has admitted to). So I think it's important his (misleading IMO) declarative statements on the topic be viewed in that light. He keeps saying "nobody knows", or something to that effect. Based on my many hours of research on this topic spanning the past 15-20 years, there's a whole lot that is known, and for the most part contradicts Ed's dismissive statements.

I've believed for years--and been in agreement with some top Vitamin C researchers--that should a pandemic come along, it was going to be a critical piece in solving the puzzle. There's no reason to "reinvent the wheel" here. The fact that Vitamin C therapy is continuing to show good results (see article below) is a confirmation of those who've believed the science has been there all along. -- BTW, for those who have ever had concerns about "side effects" from vaccinations, supplemental Vitamin C (oral or IV) can almost immediately stop a severe vaccine reaction.
..................................

The following article from yesterday's Los Angeles Times highlights an immunosuppressive drug, but high dose Vitamin C and other therapies were also used. -- Typical to leave out the Vitamin C part in the title of the article.

Emergency room doctor, near death with coronavirus, saved with an experimental treatment

Snippet:

"The immune system normally uses proteins called cytokines as weapons in fighting a disease. For unknown reasons in some COVID-19 patients, the immune system first fails to respond quickly enough and then floods the body with cytokines, destroying blood vessels and filling the lungs with fluid.

The doctors tried a drug called Actemra, which was designed to treat rheumatoid arthritis but also approved in 2017 to treat cytokine storms in cancer patients.

"Our role was to quiet the storm," said Dr. Samuel Youssef, a cardiac surgeon. "Dr. Padgett was able to clear the virus" once his immune system was back in balance.

Dr. Matt Hartman, a cardiologist, said that after four days on the immunosuppressive drug, supplemented by high-dose vitamin C and other therapies, the level of oxygen in Padgett's blood improved dramatically. On March 23, doctors were able to take him off life support."​

I say this with the utmost respect, Lane, but I just pointed out that it's still experimental and that the results are unknown (regarding high-dose intravenous vitamin c). I only countered your claim because you spoke in definitive terms, like you knew it could cure all those who were suffering from severe Covid-19 symptoms. I try to be as realistic as possible with the current facts as you claimed it could end the lockdown.

I must admit that I've read through a lot of the literature on this so I can assure you that I'm not just being flippant with you. I have also spoken to frontline Drs to gather their opinion on it. You also have to remember that I'm emotionally invested in this after almost losing my mother to it. The idea that a vitamin c pill taken orally could have stopped my mom from contracting the coronavirus, and from being hospitalised, is misleading. My mom eats more fruit and veg than just about anyone I know.

I also found it alarming that you recommended Mercola's advice to inhale hydrogen peroxide. These are dangerous alternative health practices, in my opinion.

It's clear that we'll never agree so we can leave it there with no hard feelings. There is nothing personal here; for me, it's strictly a debate on medical stuff and nothing more.

 

[linearb]

I think it should be pointed out however, that Ed has done little to no research on the value of therapeutic doses of Vitamin C (which I believe he has admitted to). So I think it's important his (misleading IMO) declarative statements on the topic be viewed in that light. He keeps saying "nobody knows", or something to that effect. Based on my many hours of research on this topic spanning the past 15-20 years, there's a whole lot that is known, and for the most part contradicts Ed's dismissive statements.

This is pretty handwavey; can you provide some examples of what you consider evidence, and what exactly you think each contradicts?

I have also spent a lot of time reading research studies about vitamin C over the last decade, and I think about 99% of the claims that are made about it in the alternative medicine community are either straight misrepresentations, extremely narrow in scope, or based on outdated models of physiology.

I'm sure we've read a lot of the same things and come to opposing conclusions; it seems useless to have this conversation in general. However, I am going to again reiterate that the coronavirus thread does not seem like the correct place for a long, unresolvable debate about the merits of vitamin C. The last time I made that observation I pointed out that there were 2 studies in progress which could shine a light on this; one of them still is, but there's nothing new there to discuss with regard to corona specifically. They have been trying the same thing in NYC for at least a couple weeks, again, without anyone jumping up and saying "hey, this is radically changing our outcomes!" (https://www.newsweek.com/new-york-hospitals-vitamin-c-coronavirus-patients-1494407)

The idea that there's some conspiracy to suppress this seems odd to me, when it's been trialed in China and NYC at a minimum, and probably other desperate facilities across the world trying a shotgun approach of anything that some whitepaper somewhere suggests might make a difference. So, it is being tried, it has been being tried since the very first country which exhibited a significant outbreak started grasping for desperation measures. The fact that after all that, it's not being tried everywhere implies that the initial data is not very compelling.

 

[Jack V]

I also found it alarming that you recommended Mercola's advice to inhale hydrogen peroxide. These are dangerous alternative health practices, in my opinion.

Hydrogen peroxide is poison. Inhaling it is bad news.