Coronavirus (SARS-CoV-2 / COVID-19) and Tinnitus

[Bill Bauer]

more worryingly, just unintelligent babble. If you can really watch those clips of him stumbling through inquiries about light and injecting disinfectants and say "yes, there is an intelligent person making reasonable statements about the world around them"

That's what often happens when people don't read a prepared speech or use a teleprompter (and the reason you see most officials and politicians doing that).

 

[linearb]

Chinese national propaganda twitter account trying to dunk on the US. To be clear, this is explicit propaganda and I am only posting it both because I think it is funny that China is using twitter lego videos to try to dunk on the US, and also because, as with many things, there are grains of truth here being magnified and exploited for clear political reasons.

All those disclaimers aside, as far as "state propaganda from hostile actors" goes, this gets a 10/10 would watch again from me. Also, understanding the narrative that China is trying to put on this for English speakers and then comparing it to translated reports from China is... interesting.

Without adjusting for age, sex, or preexisting conditions, those with vitamin D insufficiency were 12.55 times as likely to die and those with deficiency were 19.12 times as likely to die. After adjusting for age, sex, and preexisting conditions, those with insufficiency were 7.63 times as likely to die and those with deficiency were 10.12 times as likely to die.

This information doesn't tell me much in a vacuum.

How do these compare to influenza statitistics? More importantly, why were these people vitamin D deficient? Vitamin D deficiency is well known to be a symptom of cardiovascular problems, which are themselves one of the most significant risk factors for COVID mortality.

So, is this telling us "these people would all have lived if they took a vitamin D pill", or is it telling us "people with comorbidities which are correlated with vitamin D absorption problems, such as cardiovascular disease, are more likely to die of COVID"?

The second of these things is already well known and established; the first would be absolutely groundbreaking, so I am... skeptical that's what's going on. If you are looking at a deficiency which is well known to occur in a population which exhibits abnormal COVID mortality, and you don't adjust your data for pre-existing conditions... welp. Unless you have some really weird set of cohorts where most of your patients with cardiovascular problems don't have the vitamin-D deficiency you would expect them to have, I think you're just very conclusively setting yourself up to determine that vitamin-D has an unrealistic role in COVID.

Given the rate Americans eat multivitamins at, I'd also be surprised if most people over > 50 with COVID lack vitamin D intake. If they have problems with absorption, again, that's indicative of comorbidities.

The "show me the money" on this idea would be, "give me two cohorts of people with COVID and cardiovascular disease at equal points of progression, but one has been taking a vit-D pill for a couple weeks and the other has been taking placebo, and the vit-D cohort has outcomes which are clearly better in a statistically relevant way". That's the only way to show that vit-D is what you're looking at, and not just seeing vit-D deficiency as an expect correlate of cardiovascular issues.

I will read the fulltext to understand how they "adjusted" for comorbidities. On the other hand, China has had months to throw every vitamin and existing drug in the world at this and so far results are very underwhelming.

 

[Ed209]

@Ed209 -- It's seemed obvious to me from the beginning that initial viral load is an important factor. Based on what I'm seeing however, nutritional status seems to be far more important, with Vitamin C, Zinc, Vitamin A, Iodine, and Vitamin D levels among the most crucial. Obviously, there are many others that should be optimal. Regarding Vit. C, I recently learned that "far and away", the highest concentrations of cellular Vitamin C in the body is in the immune system cells (which can apparently become quickly depleted when dealing with an infection).

Below is part of an email I received from Chris Masterjohn (PhD) today which reviews a recent report coming out of Indonesia on COVID-19 infections and Vitamin D status. The numbers are pretty staggering. If anybody is interested in CM's reviews of these kinds of reports, you can subscribe by clicking on this link: -- COVID-19 Research Updates Boldings and underlining below are mine.

Patterns of COVID-19 Mortality and Vitamin D: An Indonesian Study
13 Pages Posted: 30 Apr 2020

The electronic health records of 780 laboratory-confirmed COVID-19 cases from the government hospitals of Indonesia between March 2 and April 24 was searched for data on vitamin D status prior to admission, age, sex, preexisting conditions, and mortality. Vitamin D status was classified as normal (≥30 ng/mL), insufficient (21-29 ng/mL), or deficient (≤20 ng/mL).

The majority of cases (59%) were below age 50, and 83% of them were alive and still in the hospital at the time of writing.
The mean age of those that died was 65, while the mean age those who lived was 46.
Two thirds of those who died were male, while only one third were female.
85% of those who died had preexisting conditions. The specific conditions were not reported.

Just under half (49.7%) of cases had normal vitamin D status, and only 4% of them died.
Just over a quarter (27%) had insufficient vitamin D status, and most of them (88%) died. Just under a quarter (23%) had deficient vitamin D status, and almost all of them (99%) died.

Without adjusting for age, sex, or preexisting conditions, those with vitamin D insufficiency were 12.55 times as likely to die and those with deficiency were 19.12 times as likely to die. After adjusting for age, sex, and preexisting conditions, those with insufficiency were 7.63 times as likely to die and those with deficiency were 10.12 times as likely to die.

I agree regarding vitamin D deficiency as there is a statistical anomaly in the UK which shows that a disproportionate amount of ethnic minorities are dying from Covid-19. Many people have already suggested a possible link to vitamin D levels affecting the way some may deal with it. But how pronounced is this effect? And is it entirely down to one's vitamin D level?

What's ironic is that my mom was taking a Vitabiotics vitamin D supplement in the weeks/months leading up to her contracting Covid-19. She hadn't had her levels checked prior to this, so I couldn't tell you if she was deficient or not. I'd say in her case it was unlikely but who knows.

By the way, here's a picture of the vitamin D my mom and I were both taking. I was measured to have a mild deficiency (on two separate occasions) so I've been supplementing vitamin D ever since. This was a few years back. I recommended that my mom do the same.

In our case, it clearly didn't stop us catching it, but we didn't die either. I have no possible way of saying what impact, if any, it had.

 

[linearb]

During my latest trip, I had also experienced a serious skid on a gravel road, with the rental car going 90 degrees of where I had been planning for it to go and traveling an unreasonably long distance that way. I got lucky that there was nothing in the way...

Yep, this is very easy to have happen, and it's why people who live where I do have special tires and discourage friends from coming up here in 2wd normal cars.

On 4 wheels, you can go out 90 degrees, and yea if you get lucky and don't hit anything, you can just turn the wheel, calm your beating heart and then go on your way. Things on 2 wheels do a lot worse, I think it only took like an extra unexpected 15 degrees of tilt to turn a normal S-curve into a crash. Other dirtbikers I know who I have told this story to have mostly said "yea, that shit happens, cool you didn't break anything", ha.

 

[Bill Bauer]

Click on the tweet at the top to see the rest of this interesting set of twitter posts.

 

[Lane]

 

[Lane]

"Wastewater-based epidemiology (WBE) is a new and highly effective way to monitor coronavirus and other diseases by studying sewage samples to detect how many people in a given area are infected, and can even pinpoint a single infected individuals among 100 to 2 million persons.

Many areas do not have the means to test individuals for coronavirus and even if they do, it's slow and cost-prohibitive. Scientists say roughly 70% of the population could be screened for coronavirus by monitoring the country's 15,014 wastewater treatment plants at a much lesser cost than individual testing."

Source: Science Daily April 23,2020
​

BTW, this article reminds me of my "discomfort" with so many public restrooms that lack seat covers. I've long thought that flushing a toilet without a seat cover is likely worse than coughing or sneezing without covering our mouths. -- After mentioning this to a couple of different establishments--and being met with blank looks--I no longer brought up the subject. But I would like to see public health officials mentioning this along with some of their other suggestions of wearing masks, etc.

 

[linearb]

Deaths are up significantly more than Corona death counts in places known to have lots of Corona:
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...-19-death-toll-indicated-cdc-data/3048381001/

Additionally, things being counted as flu deaths are up astronomically as well:
https://gis.cdc.gov/grasp/fluview/mortality.html

The upshot of this is that we're undercounting Corona deaths, probably significantly, but don't know by how much. Additionally, some excess mortality could be attributable to people who would normally go to the ER for another condition deciding not to.

A week and a half after Mississippi partially ended its lockdown, they are having a significant uptick in new cases which has caused the Governor to halt further re-opening measures for the time being.

Meanwhile, Russian doctors are actually being murdered by being thrown out of windows for talking about a lack of PPE, so "it could always be worse somewhere else!" Defenestration of whistleblowers is not something that's happening here, as far as I know. Nurses here are just getting fired during a pandemic for violating various policies around privacy. (I think this is tricky, because hospitals have don't film / don't post rules for very good reasons, on the other hand, if you're being asked to work in an illegally or unreasonably dangerous environment then you have other concerns and obligations as well).

Finally, the National Review has an opinion piece that basically drops a severed head at the foot of the Trump administration on the grounds that they had extensively modeled a pandemic like this, had produced a fairly comprehensive list of problems that would occur, and then... fired all those people and basically ignored the output of that project until an actual pandemic came and demonstrated how accurate all that modeling was. This is less about the (also poor) reaction to the event, and more about the cynical and deliberate ignoring of safeguards and destruction of processes intended to help in events like this, starting well before the first COVID-19 virus mutated inside a bat someplace.

I hope everyone is staying safe and having a nice weekend. My connective tissue and abrasions from my little motorbike accident this week are mended enough that I might go see about mending the bike today...

 

[Bill Bauer]

Can you imagine the consequences of doctors'/dentists' offices being pretty much closed for two months? Will we have to add two months to whatever time it took in the past to get an appointment, and will the wait time ever get shorter?

 

[Greg Sacramento]

Can you imagine the consequences of doctors'/dentists' offices being pretty much closed for two months? Will we have to add two months to whatever time it took in the past to get an appointment, and will the wait time ever get shorter?

My doctor is doing virtual care visits. He told me that hypertension concerns far outweigh other health issues. He said at least two developed pulsatile tinnitus. Most of his patients are under 45.

 

[Ed209]

Can you imagine the consequences of doctors'/dentists' offices being pretty much closed for two months? Will we have to add two months to whatever time it took in the past to get an appointment, and will the wait time ever get shorter?

A friend of mine made his own tooth filling kits that patients can apply at home. He set up a drive-through operation to hand out kits to those who need them and also offered postal deliveries. He also delivered some of his patients' antibiotics by drone. There is a dentist on hand for genuine emergencies as well.

Waiting times for healthcare-related issues were already terrible in the UK so I can only imagine they'll get worse.

 

[GregCA]

A friend of mine made his own tooth filling kits that patients can apply at home.

I'd love to understand how that works... I mean, are we finding out that we really don't need to go to the dentist for a filling? Seems a bit surprising.
Perhaps this is just temporary and will just "hold for a bit" until the dentist is available again?

 

[Ed209]

I'd love to understand how that works... I mean, are we finding out that we really don't need to go to the dentist for a filling? Seems a bit surprising.
Perhaps this is just temporary and will just "hold for a bit" until the dentist is available again?

They are temporary and come in two kits. One is an instant kit which isn't as strong but is ready to go, and with the other you have to mix two small pouches of powder together to create a ball. You then insert the malleable mix into/onto the problem tooth and it gives you a temporary fix until they can see you properly. They then replace it with a proper filling.

I'm pretty sure he told me that it was some sort of glass polymer.

Here's the man himself explaining it.

 

[Ed209]

My doctor is doing virtual care visits. He told me that hypertension concerns far outweigh other health issues. He said at least two developed pulsatile tinnitus. Most of his patients are under 45.

All the GPs around here are doing telephone consultations. As LinearB noted, death rates are up to the highest levels they've ever been in the UK which has led many experts to believe that it is because of COVID-19. Indirect deaths would include those who have serious health conditions but are avoiding hospitals and other healthcare providers because of the virus.

 

[linearb]

The IHME model has been updated and jumped from 67k US deaths by 8/1, to 134,475

https://covid19.healthdata.org/united-states-of-america

I do not know if this is accounting for the under counting we know we're doing, or not. The important thing to remember though, this was never intended as a disease total, just a running total through 8/1.

This is also worrying

It's unclear if the rise/fall is a reporting error; clearly, total national casecounts would have been increasing during that time, but there's a 4-8 week lag between diseases spread and mortality. However, the actual trend line continues up at this moment, and that 134k is based on an immediate fall starting today.

Stay safe everyone. Another study I saw showed that 80% compliance of 60% effective cloth masks, reduces RO to < 1 and would actually eradicate the disease. From what I am seeing in photos from a lot of US cities, though, we're nowhere near 80%.

It is silly to me how much of this is a partisan issue. Either masks are effective in controlling disease spread, or they are not (they very much are) -- it's not the case that masks work in blue cites/states but not in red ones.

 

[Bill Bauer]

 

[PeterPan]

I don't know about you guys, but my Tinnitus seems to be improving greatly in this COVID crisis:

• I am working from home and getting to sleep in until around 8:30 everyday. My fitbit is telling me my sleep is "Good" rather than "fair" or "poor". I knock-off at 5:00 pm and get home at 5:00 pm .
• My days are much quieter. No noisy bus in the morning and evening.
• My days are a lot less stressful working from home. I go for 3 x walks around the neighborhood every day.

 

[Daniel Lion]

@linearb, it's not "silly" it's "sad" that the US is a mess and masks are an issue. Good leadership could have helped so much in getting society to cooperate by what ever model or combination of models the government wishes to try use to manage the pandemic.

Asian leaders regularly wear masks at public briefings or tours of factories or research facilities and hospitals. It sends a message by example. Trump and Pence won't wear masks, the First Lady has made more of an effort. Instead of encouraging safe public protocol to manage the pandemic it's been Trump continually contradicting science and simply not giving good advice about being safe, wearing masks, isolating when your sick and practicing social distancing as the States are a complete mess. What's done is done.

From following the news from abroad and having plenty of time to read, I got the impression that Boris Johnson and Donald Trump were both behaving ill informed, and being cavalier and foolish to the detriment of the two nations, from the beginning.

Living in a small poor country in comparison. The nightly briefs here have not been politicos, but the doctors and med experts calling the shots. Everybody where's masks during the briefings. Everyone here where I write thinks the government did a great job, zero cases for 20 days. Our neighbors, Thailand, Vietnam, China, Cambodia, are doing well in terms of managing the pandemic and Myanmar is touch and go... in many ways because of politics ie. The Rohinga people and refugee camps.

Both the South Korean or Swedish model require the public to be responsible and help on a national project.

 

[Ed209]

Shit is getting real in America.

 

[linearb]

Shit is getting real in America.

"thescoop.us" at 30 seconds of glancing is clearly a disinfo site, this video has Alex Jones in it, and I am, so far, unable to find any news reports whatsoever of whatever we're looking at in this video.

We see a man shouting through a bullhorn at cops, we see the cops eventually disperse, we see clapping. There is not necessarily any causality to these things; it is certain that the cops were ordered to pull back, and it doesn't seem especially likely that one loudmouth with a bullhorn was the reason for that.

This clip is being used virally by various anti-lockdown groups, many of whom are also anti-fact.

That said, yes, things are certainly pretty strange here now ( https://www.cnn.com/2020/05/04/us/michigan-security-guard-mask-killing-trnd/index.html). On the other hand, public support for not returning to business as usual is still pretty high, and from polling I've seen a lot of the "re-open!" rhetoric (and more importantly, astroturfing money) comes from people who... haven't actually lost their jobs, and are annoyed at the unwillingness of the working classes to sacrifices themselves / their parents for next quarter's profits.

Take a look at this gem of a website; if you can sniff stuff with chrome inspector and ARIN etc you will only need about 2 mins to figure out it's astroturfed bullshit. This was making the rounds in one of my friend's parents' email.

https://www.professorhinkley.com/blog/oregon-has-lost-its-mind-over-covid-19

(this is not a real person's blog, this is an astroturfed production. I will leave the proof of that in the pudding, it was fun to take this apart with Chrome for 2 mins and see all the obvious tells that not only is it not a real person's site, not even rudimentary effort was invested to make it appear to be -- it's literally just there to be a linktank for partisan disinfo emails).

 

[Ed209]

"thescoop.us" at 30 seconds of glancing is clearly a disinfo site, this video has Alex Jones in it, and I am, so far, unable to find any news reports whatsoever of whatever we're looking at in this video.

We see a man shouting through a bullhorn at cops, we see the cops eventually disperse, we see clapping. There is not necessarily any causality to these things; it is certain that the cops were ordered to pull back, and it doesn't seem especially likely that one loudmouth with a bullhorn was the reason for that.

This clip is being used virally by various anti-lockdown groups, many of whom are also anti-fact.

That said, yes, things are certainly pretty strange here now ( https://www.cnn.com/2020/05/04/us/michigan-security-guard-mask-killing-trnd/index.html). On the other hand, public support for not returning to business as usual is still pretty high, and from polling I've seen a lot of the "re-open!" rhetoric (and more importantly, astroturfing money) comes from people who... haven't actually lost their jobs, and are annoyed at the unwillingness of the working classes to sacrifices themselves / their parents for next quarter's profits.

Take a look at this gem of a website; if you can sniff stuff with chrome inspector and ARIN etc you will only need about 2 mins to figure out it's astroturfed bullshit. This was making the rounds in one of my friend's parents' email.

https://www.professorhinkley.com/blog/oregon-has-lost-its-mind-over-covid-19

(this is not a real person's blog, this is an astroturfed production. I will leave the proof of that in the pudding, it was fun to take this apart with Chrome for 2 mins and see all the obvious tells that not only is it not a real person's site, not even rudimentary effort was invested to make it appear to be -- it's literally just there to be a linktank for partisan disinfo emails).

I posted that video as a joke. It was shared on Facebook by the same looney who keeps telling everyone that the virus isn't real. I roll my eyes at this stuff big time.

Many of my friends on Facebook immediately go down the conspiracy rabbit hole, no matter what the issue is. They are prone to it. Here's an example that I just read about 30 minutes ago.

I love how they are all suddenly experts in virology and immunology. Lockdown in the UK never really happened to the full extent as people never stopped gathering on parks, natural beauty spots, the streets, etc, since it began. It's been a bit of a joke in all honesty.

I'm not going to claim to know what we should be doing for the best as I have no idea. I don't think the governments do either. It's clear that this virus is now endemic and will continue for years to come unless a viable vaccine comes along. Countries such as New Zealand will have to open up again at some point, so it's inevitable that they will face a lot of deaths like the rest of us. As we know, the entire point of the lockdowns was to stop hospitals from becoming overwhelmed.

 

[Bill Bauer]

the same looney who keeps telling everyone that the virus isn't real

Is that what he is actually saying, or is he saying that the authorities had overreacted?

I love how they are all suddenly experts in virology and immunology.

There has never been a vaccine for any virus in the coronavirus family (and the flu vaccines last only one season) because of those viruses' ability to mutate. Pointing this out doesn't make one an expert in immunology.

They seem to be experts on human rights who don't think that making vaccines compulsory is ok. Are you saying you are against the idea of "My body - my choice"?

Lockdown in the UK never really happened

Is that what the people who were behind the lockdown that had caused countless deaths (e.g., those who died as a result of not being able to see a doctor, despite the hospitals being empty) and all of the future suffering due to the future economic crisis have been saying?

I don't think the governments do either.

This is the reason they shouldn't have the power to implement Mandatory vaccines or declare mandatory lockdowns for flimsy reasons.

 

[Bill Bauer]

sacrifice themselves / their parents for next quarter's profits.

Is that all it's about?
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...irus-layoffs-are-turning-permanent-around-u-s

 

[Bill Bauer]

They are prone to it.

What are you prone to?

Bill Gates is a private citizen who has not been elected to do anything, and who doesn't represent anyone. Do you think it is ok for him to have any impact on public policy and to suggest conditions under which we could get our freedom of association back?

 

[FGG]

What are you prone to?

Bill Gates is a private citizen who has not been elected to do anything, and who doesn't represent anyone. Do you think it is ok for him to have any impact on public policy and to suggest conditions under which we could get our freedom of association back?

To be fair, Jared Kushner is also a private citizen who has zero qualifications and has not been elected anything.

 

[Bill Bauer]

To be fair, Jared Kushner is also a private citizen who has zero qualifications and has not been elected anything.

Couldn't agree more.

@Lane, check this out.

 

[Ed209]

Is that what he is actually saying, or is he saying that the authorities had overreacted?
There has never been a vaccine for any virus in the coronavirus family (and the flu vaccines last only one season) because of those viruses' ability to mutate. Pointing this out doesn't make one an expert in immunology.

They seem to be experts on human rights who don't think that making vaccines compulsory is ok. Are you saying you are against the idea of "My body - my choice"?

Is that what the people who were behind the lockdown that had caused countless deaths (e.g., those who died as a result of not being able to see a doctor, despite the hospitals being empty) and all of the future suffering due to the future economic crisis have been saying?

This is the reason they shouldn't have the power to implement Mandatory vaccines or declare mandatory lockdowns for flimsy reasons.

I'm not after a deep debate on this, Bill. The guy who posted that video is a complete and utter fruitcake who leads a very misinformed activist group. He frequently tells people that the virus doesn't exist and that people need to rise up against the tyranny, etc. It's embarrassing reading the crap he writes and the videos he shares. The discussion I posted above was made by people I used to go to school with and they are easily led, conspiracy theorists. Some of the things I've seen them say goes way off into la-la land. But what's even scarier is how quickly some of these ridiculous ideas gain momentum. Most of what I see is outright nonsense.

I'm very aware that there are no coronavirus vaccines. In fact, my wife and I have discussed this on a few occasions. She is of the opinion that there may never be a vaccine for this.

I agree with my body my choice, 100%, but I don't agree with spreading misinformation. If someone's decision to not vaccinate comes from a place of being misled by far-right groups then I think it's rather unfortunate and tragic. People need to learn to be more objective about the information they take in. This also applies to the idea of people wilfully having themselves vaccinated before all the facts are known. It works both ways. A bad vaccine could potentially be worse than the virus itself.

Too many mistakes were made in the UK. There was minimal testing and barely any contact tracing was done early on and now they are realising it and trying to make up for it by testing significantly more people. But it's all a bit late now. Nobody can accurately predict how a novel virus will behave, but it appears that most countries acted precautiously in an attempt to save lives. Countries across the world are still winging it at the moment. Nobody has a clue what to do for the best right now, and anybody who pretends to have all the answers is full of shit.

It reminds me of that famous Richard Feynman quote: if you think you understand quantum mechanics, then you don't.

 

[Bill Bauer]

The discussion I posted above was made by people I used to go to school with and they are easily led, conspiracy theorists.

The part that you quoted doesn't support your accusation.

The guy who posted that video is a complete and utter fruitcake who leads a very misinformed activist group. It's embarrassing reading the crap he writes and the videos he shares.

It sounds like he Hasn't stated that the virus isn't real, and that he has indeed wrote that there has been an overreaction to this virus.

I'm very aware that there are no coronavirus vaccines. In fact, my wife and I have discussed this on a few occasions. She is of the opinion that there may never be a vaccine for this.

So she agrees with one of the tweets that you had shared with us earlier today. You mocked the author of the tweet as thinking of himself as an expert virologist.

If someone's decision to not vaccinate comes from a place of being misled by far-right groups then I think it's rather unfortunate and tragic.

Adults have the right to make the choice. What causes them to make some choice is none of your and my business. They are adults, and they are able to evaluate what sources are trustworthy and what sources aren't.

People need to learn to be more objective about the information they take in.

You seem to think that you aren't saying that whoever disagrees with you must be doing so because they aren't objective about the information that they take in, but there is a relatively high chance that this is in fact what is happening.

I might be totally off, but it seems to me that you had been conditioned to dismiss valid arguments and empirical evidence that contradict the "narrative" as "a conspiracy theories", without thinking about the argument or the data, while accusing the people who actually think critically about the world around them as "mindless sheep."

This also applies to the idea of people wilfully having themselves vaccinated before all the facts are known. It works both ways. A bad vaccine could potentially be worse than the virus itself.

I agree.

Too many mistakes were made in the UK. There was minimal testing and barely any contact tracing was done early on

I believe that they had never closed their borders, even to people arriving from known hotspots...

 

[Lane]

@Lane, check this out.

For those who didn't click on Bill Bauer's link: -- "The data are even stronger than I wrote. I've now seen preliminary evidence from a larger sample of Covid patients in Indonesia: they are 19 times more likely to die if deficient in vitamin D. Please can the authorities advise vitamin D supplements"
-
@Bill Bauer -- Besides Vit. D levels, I've seen somewhat similar data on zinc levels, potassium levels, iodine levels, Vit. C levels, and more. Here's something I've come to believe regarding many who die from COVID-19 with "pre-existing" conditions: Many of the nutritional deficiencies (such as Vit. D) that are majorly contributing to those COVID-19 deaths are almost certainly contributing to their pre-existing conditions as well.

Which means... people by and large can exert a tremendous amount of influence over their overall health, and how their body might respond to a COVID-19 infection before ever contracting the virus. They have perhaps even more influence over how any recovery from COVID-19 might go, based on many of the same factors. -- Perhaps in the cosmic order of things, this pandemic might help us (individually and as a culture) learn to take greater responsibility for our health in ways we haven't before. And that could end up being the proverbial silver lining.

 

[Ed209]

Is that what he is actually saying, or is he saying that the authorities had overreacted?

I'm talking about the guy who shared it on my Facebook timeline. I've already posted some of his other videos earlier in this thread. He believes that the coronavirus does not exist and that it's all made up. He also constantly contradicts himself and is woefully misinformed on many of the things he says. But people follow him and he has a movement known as CMW (Constitutional Movement Worldwide).

It sounds like he Hasn't stated that the virus isn't real and that he has indeed written that there has been an overreaction to this virus.

He's said it loads of times. There's a video on this thread a few pages back where he explicitly says it. He says it's all because of 5g, although, he hasn't mentioned this for a while now so maybe he's moved onto some other conspiracy theory.

So she agrees with one of the tweets that you had shared with us earlier today. You mocked the author of the tweet as thinking of himself as an expert virologist.

I didn't share a tweet? If you're referring to my old school friends, then yea, they're clearly misinformed and don't have a clue what they're talking about. They talk in absolutes and frequently say that any vaccine that arrives will clearly be designed to kill us all off. What is this based upon? The answer is David Icke (the self-appointed son of god), and many other conspiracy theorists. I have no problem with sensible debate on these complex issues.

Adults have the right to make the choice. What causes them to make some choice is none of your and my business. They are adults, and they are able to evaluate what sources are trustworthy and what sources aren't.

This is very true. However, with a potentially deadly virus on the loose, you bring the entire population into that decision with you. If something more deadly was to come along that required a vaccine to save mankind then I fear we would all die because of our own stupidity. It seems more and more people today would rather see the return of killer diseases - that have been eradicated - rather than take a vaccine. There may be a risk to some who take them, but the alternative is infinitely worse and most of the fear-mongering regarding vaccines is based on junk science anyway, although, there are some valid points that could be made.

You seem to think that you aren't saying that whoever disagrees with you must be doing so because they aren't objective about the information that they take in, but there is a relatively high chance that this is in fact what is happening.

I might be totally off, but it seems to me that you had been conditioned to dismiss valid arguments and empirical evidence that contradict the "narrative" as "a conspiracy theories", without thinking about the argument or the data, while accusing the people who actually think critically about the world around them as "mindless sheep."

Most conspiracy theories are stupid and have no valid explanations, like the flat Earth theory. If I was to argue against a flat Earther you could say, "how do you know you're right?" I try to go by the best scientific evidence that is available at the time or by personal experience if I have any that's valid for a debate I'm involved in. However, you are correct. We are all inherently biassed in one way or another and the way we make decisions depends upon many contributing factors. Sometimes something can be so ludicrous that the correct approach is obvious to those who possess the right knowledge. The trick is being able to tell the difference and none of us are infallible in this regard.

I believe that they had never closed their borders, even to people arriving from known hotspots...

The UK's lockdown has been a disaster from the get-go. It wasn't fit for purpose.