Coronavirus (SARS-CoV-2 / COVID-19) and Tinnitus

[Ed209]

But, I don't like to bring political spectrums into the coronavirus topic. However, you're exactly correct: anything questioning the official narrative is instantly labeled "right wing conspiracy theory" in addition to the "disinformation" tag. I think it's equivalent to labeling or calling someone 'stupid' or a 'white supremacist' or something to that nature.

Try discussing COVID-19 from the perspective of an Inquisitive and Questioning mind and you will be ultimately censored or banned on many sites including but not limited to Reddit, Discord and Telegram. Why is that? If the facts "speak for themselves," why can't people question and discuss it? What are people afraid of? I think the percentage of people who believe and "follow" the official narrative is over 50% still. That's amazing considering all the contradictions, conflicting info, doctors and other health professionals who question and disagree with the official narrative. But, the politicizing of the topic is alarming because the left controls the narrative and who gets to discuss it. Corporations are on board, too and that includes Big Tech. Why do so many not care about that? Even most Republicans who are called "right wingers" don't seem to care. They are in league with this, too. That's wild.

Why do people refer to it as the "official narrative." If one has an inquisitive and questioning mind, then they should seek out unbiased and factual information from reputable sources. The problem, as far as I can see, is that it's been heavily politicised to the point that it's become tribal. The amount of nonsense out there is truly staggering, but people continue to pass bad information around.

 

[UKBloke]

Please tell me what part of the narrative "doesn't sit right" and then provide peer-reviewed data to support your claims?

No. YOU provide peer-reviewed data that supports the number of COVID-19 deaths mainstream is reporting.

people who post numbers without understanding them and linking to their original, falsifiable source are being intellectually lazy.

You've made a very specific claim

And I can't work out whether the statement you've made above is general or specific. Which is it?

 

[UKBloke]

I am basing my opinions on what's happening in my immediate area.

I'm glad we've got that sorted out. I posted a link a while back to an interview with Dr. Malcolm Kendrick who's a GP in the Macclesfield area. His perspective on what's happening is different to yours, as is mine.

If your local hospital is running at 120% capacity and they've called in the army, what is the general context for that? What factors are effecting these figures? Can we have the name of the hospital so we can check what's different about the situation there to how it was in 2019?

 

[UKBloke]

You've made a very specific claim, which is that this forum dismisses anything that doesn't fit the "media narrative" as a "conspiracy theory". Can you show me, say, 10-15 posts from the last 2-3 weeks which fit that model?

Also no one called Pete a Nazi; where's the Godwinning?

There have been examples in this very long thread of the use of the words, anti, denier, denial, conspiracy theory, David Icke etc. So again, no, I'm not going to do as you ask and frame the question over the past 15 posts. Everything is here in perpetuity for people to read. Having said this, you know as well as I do that conflating terms like those above into the opposing side of a debate (where Pete and I sit at this point for different reasons) is innuendo, especially where the words, anti, denier and denial are concerned.

 

[Ed209]

If your local hospital is running at 120% capacity and they've called in the army, what is the general context for that? What factors are effecting these figures? Can we have the name of the hospital so we can check what's different about the situation there to how it was in 2019?

What factors are affecting these figures? Something called COVID-19.

I'm glad we've got that sorted out. I posted a link a while back to an interview with Dr Malcolm Kendrick who's a GP in the Macclesfield area. His perspective on what's happening is different to yours, as is mine.

I don't know who he is, but I have heard the opinions of around 20 high-level Drs who work across the country. These are both people I know well, and friends of theirs. I also go right back with a molecular scientist who does this stuff for a living. She could talk all day about cycle thresholds and stuff, and how the online experts amuse the hell out of her. All of a sudden everyone's like Lieutenant Columbo, trying to bring down the New World Order.

There have been examples in this very long thread of the use of the words, anti, denier, denial, conspiracy theory, David Icke etc. So again, no, I'm not going to do as you ask and frame the question over the past 15 posts. Everything is here in perpetuity for people to read. Having said this, you know as well as I do that conflating terms like those above into the opposing side of a debate (where Pete and I sit at this point for different reasons) is innuendo, especially where the words, anti, denier and denial are concerned.

I'm not sure what thread you've been looking at, but there's been lots of evidence posted here. It's not linearb's fault if people don't understand it or choose to ignore it. He is right, the facts are undeniable at this stage.

And David Icke is like the undisputed champion of conspiracy theories. He is the epitome of a lunatic.

 

[linearb]

No. YOU provide peer-reviewed data that supports the number of COVID-19 deaths mainstream is reporting.

The numbers the mainstream are reporting are compiled from a combination of the CDC, NHS, NIH and similar. These are the organizations whose members perform peer review in the first place, in many cases.

Clinical course and mortality risk of severe COVID-19 -- this was written in March. It's been cited by 100+ things since then. All of them contain clinical information of one kind or another about COVID-19 mortality. The information that the various dashboards are polling is being reported by thousands of different hospitals and aggregated. I'm unclear what part of that process you're skeptical of, but if you have the time to dig into all of the data tables yourself you can put together the same dashboards that the CDC has. You might need an academic affiliation or subscription to read some of the raw source papers; on the other hand, some things have been published in open journals explicitly because it is a global health crisis.

And I can't work out whether the statement you've made above is general or specific. Which is it?

General, and to be clear to wasn't aimed at you, it was mostly aimed at posts that are regurgitations of talking points or memes that are either just factually wrong or get into conspiracy theory territory.

 

[linearb]

In other good reasons to avoid COVID-19:

Six-month Neurological and Psychiatric Outcomes in 236,379 Survivors of COVID-19

Findings. 236,379 patients survived a confirmed diagnosis of COVID-19. Among them, the estimated incidence of neurological or psychiatric sequelae at 6 months was 33.6%, with 12.8% receiving their first such diagnosis. Most diagnostic categories were commoner after COVID-19 than after influenza or other respiratory infections (hazard ratios from 1.21 to 5.28), including stroke, intracranial hemorrhage, dementia, and psychotic disorders.

Stroke and intracranial hemorrhage can lead to mental functional problems, so there's a logical association to this symptom cluster and it fits what we know with the unique vascular damage COVID-19 seems to do in some cases. I need to look at the tables in more detail because 1.21 - 5.28 is quite a range, but that's a large sample body confirming something that'd been reported by a bunch of smaller studies.

I know a woman who's an otherwise healthy 40 year old who has some kind of neurological complications from COVID-19. Doctors don't understand what's going on with her; maybe they will as more of this comes into the light. If we're really talking about brain blood clots, though, the ceiling for how bad that can be is very, very high.

 

[UKBloke]

@linearb, I have to say I wasn't impressed when you posted the meme on the vaccine thread of an anti-vaxx researcher, which was some woman on a phone taking a dump.

I accept you might have posted it to lighten the mood, but to me it says something not necessarily about the person, because I don't know you so I can't make a judgement about that, I'd say it's more to do with the perspective one takes when considering others' concerns. And you and I have been conversing so that becomes relevant.

We have a vaccine injured person in our family. I'm not going to provide citations and birth certificates so you'll have to take this at face value. The event happened circa 20 years ago and relates to the MMR vaccine. The parents of said child considered suing the pharmaceutical company at the time but were so traumatised by the event and felt they were battling a giant they didn't pursue a claim. It's worth noting that had this happened recently, a more developed WWW may have actually made a difference to their decision - either to vaccinate or pursue a claim.

My point is that the vast majority of people that are concerned about vaccines and vaccine research are not going to be medically or academically qualified to undertake the research, however, they are streetwise enough to try and mitigate any dangers to their own health or that of their children. Where else are they going to go for the information? If their perspective is different to yours that's fine, but mocking people who are trying to wade through the mud is not acceptable in my book.

The vaccine discussion is inextricably tied to the entire COVID-19 debate, both the wider debate and the debate here. I've stated my position previously as clearly as I can. But for the record:

1. I believe a dominant virus called SARS-CoV-2 did the rounds in 2020
2. I believe the virus can cause a disease that is being referred to as COVID-19
3. I believe that >99% of people who develop COVID-19 will survive it
4. I believe that the test known as PCR, which is critical in a COVID-19 diagnosis has and is being misused
5. I believe the cost of government COVID-19 policy in the UK far outweighs the benefit

My biggest issue right now is the constant fear porn in our mainstream media, which to all intents and purposes is primarily the BBC here because all government COVID-19 statements out of Downing St. come via the BBC.

The fear porn is quite literally terrorising people into this narrative of a deadly virus tearing through the land. It is stoking public opinion, and it is that public opinion that predicates government's brutal lockdowns, which are now demonstrably killing people.

If you take a look at the EUROMOMO charts and graphs, all-case mortality in Europe tells a different story to the one our government demands we accept. When I've tried to raise these points in this thread (I don't cite peer-reviewed papers because I don't feel qualified to fully understand the science but I do take the time to seek out people who I believe are expert in their field), I'm "fact-checked" by @Ed209.

Again @Ed209, you've recently posted that your local hospital is running at 120% and the army has been called in. I want to be really clear, this is not personal. But go back and read the post, then consider the message it's putting out. With respect if the statement is not substantiated then to me it is an example of the very type of fear porn that is keeping this country in lockdowns. People often ask, What can I do? In my opinion, the first thing people can do is start asking questions. And that's not about proselytising, it's about cutting though the headlines to explore the facts.

@linearb, you've spoken about intellectual laziness. Where's the intellectual integrity? Why has there not been one single person in this thread bar myself (and I think @PeteJ made some comment), to question @Ed209 about his post I quoted? I waited, nothing happened. That post represents a perfect opportunity for people to understand so many aspects of the media spin-cycle vs. the truth about what's happening on the ground. And again for emphasis I return to the point - the media is driving public opinion, which informs government decisions about lockdowns in my country.

@Ed209 the example is very simple. For ease of numbers' sake:

• Let's say in 2019 your local hospital had 100 beds
• Let's say in 2019 your local hospital employed 20 nurses - 1 for every 5 beds
• In an average winter season let's say 97 beds are occupied on a weekly basis
• Let's say that due to COVID-19 social distancing measures in 2020 the hospital reduced it's number of beds to 80 beds.
• Let's say that in the 2020/21 winter season the average of 97 beds needed still stands
• Let's say that due to PCR driven track and trace, 5 asymptomatic nurses at your local hospital have been ordered home to self-isolate (you know like Matt Hancock who was filmed outside in a park a few weeks ago and then went on TV some days later to miraculously announce that he'd received a text via track and trace ordering him to self-isolate)

Hopefully you get the point. I'm not going to labour the issue trying to source the name of the hospital. I'm not here to stress people out. I'm inferring to anyone reading this that these data are publicly available and any similar headline should be considered in context. The over-arching consideration being, is this headline about COVID-19 or is it really the results of COVID-19 policy? I believe there's a distinction.

If we in the UK don't start to question headlines like these instead of running with them we are never going to change public opinion. It is only public opinion keeping us locked down, and I am now firmly of the view that in the long run, the 3 x lockdowns will kill far more people than a virus with a >99% survival rate.

 

[PeteJ]

What factors are affecting these figures? Something called COVID-19.

I don't know who he is, but I have heard the opinions of around 20 high-level Drs who work across the country. These are both people I know well, and friends of theirs. I also go right back with a molecular scientist who does this stuff for a living. She could talk all day about cycle thresholds and stuff, and how the online experts amuse the hell out of her. All of a sudden everyone's like Lieutenant Columbo, trying to bring down the New World Order.

I'm not sure what thread you've been looking at, but there's been lots of evidence posted here. It's not linearb's fault if people don't understand it or choose to ignore it. He is right, the facts are undeniable at this stage.

And David Icke is like the undisputed champion of conspiracy theories. He is the epitome of a lunatic.

You didn't answer any of his questions as it was just vague assurances that you are buds with a lot of doctors and @linearb is an "expert" on this stuff "so there." Very childish but amusing as well.

 

[Ed209]

@UKBloke, I've already given information about hospital beds and other relevant data regarding excess deaths from the ONS. I'm not sure what else you want at this point?

I've also stated numerous times that lockdowns will cause untold damage. I agree with you on this 100%. My issue is with those who don't believe COVID-19 is real, and then use lies to try and justify this position. PeteJ is a prime example of this. It's like the blind leading the blind.

I noticed you used the term fear porn. I've only ever seen that term being used by those who are so-far-gone in understanding what's happening out there, that debating with them is pointless. I honestly think you've been led down the rabbit hole, at this point. Of course, you have the right to believe anything you want.

Giving out the name of the hospital is too personal, and I've already had one weirdo stalking me on a private account. I'd rather not add to this.

You didn't answer any of his questions as it was just vague assurances that you are buds with a lot of doctors and @linearb is an "expert" on this stuff "so there." Very childish but amusing as well.

I have a very deep insight into what's going on because of these contacts. My information is not coming from the MSM or dodgy YouTube videos. I addressed every single point of yours, one by one, and you never attempted to make a counter argument, you just ignored me. So, what's the point in continuing the debate? You ignore empirical evidence and lie repeatedly.

 

[PeteJ]

I believe one question was "What is the actual hospital (name)?"

It is very interesting to learn about a hospital in such crisis especially one so candid and inviting in divulging detailed information to forum members.

 

[UKBloke]

@UKBloke, I've already given information about hospital beds and other relevant data regarding excess deaths from the ONS. I'm not sure what else you want at this point?

I've also stated numerous times that lockdowns will cause untold damage. I agree with you on this 100%. My issue is with those who don't believe COVID-19 is real, and then use lies to try and justify this position. PeteJ is a prime example of this. It's like the blind leading the blind.

I noticed you used the term fear porn. I've only ever seen that term being used by those who are so-far-gone in understanding what's happening out there, that debating with them is pointless. I honestly think you've been led down the rabbit hole, at this point. Of course, you have the right to believe anything you want.

Giving out the name of the hospital is too personal, and I've already had one weirdo stalking me on a private account. I'd rather not add to this.

I have a very deep insight into what's going on because of these contacts. My information is not coming from the MSM or dodgy YouTube videos. I addressed every single point of yours, one by one, and you never attempted to make a counter argument, you just ignored me. So, what's the point in continuing the debate? You ignore empirical evidence and lie repeatedly.

That's absolutely fine. As I said previously, I don't expect you to release any personal information about the hospital in question.

I also note that you're using terms like, being led down the rabbit hole. For argument's sake I won't respond to that, suffice to say, we can both recuse ourselves from the debate but let's do it respectfully eh?

 

[Lane]

We have a vaccine injured person in our family. I'm not going to provide citations and birth certificates so you'll have to take this at face value. The event happened circa 20 years ago and relates to the MMR vaccine. The parents of said child considered suing the pharmaceutical company at the time but were so traumatised by the event and felt they were battling a giant they didn't pursue a claim.

Hi @UKBloke -- My sincerest condolences to you and your family. I believe your description of how your family was so traumatised and didn't (couldn't?) pursue a claim is a situation that is FAR more common than most people would ever believe--or even consider. When people have been told for years by medical "authorities" and vaccine proponents that vaccines are "safe and effective", it's understandable.

I've been perusing ME/CFS forums for many years, and there are many reports of people becoming very, very ill right after getting a vaccination, and remain ill for years on end. From those vaccines that are required for college entrance, to those required for overseas travel, HPV vaccines (very bad), even flu vaccines, and many more. Yet the medical authorities continue to say all vaccines are safe and effective.

They then (usually condescendingly) trumpet the classical statistical fallacy, "correlation is not causation". While this broad assertion is technically true, it's very often misleading. It doesn't take into account that correlation is often all you have as a (compelling) starting point for new avenues of scientific query. But so very often the reason many valid areas of scientific research don't gain traction is there are vested financial interests intent on preventing that.

All the best to your and your family...

 

[Ed209]

That's absolutely fine. As I said previously, I don't expect you to release any personal information about the hospital in question.

I also note that you're using terms like, being led down the rabbit hole. For argument's sake I won't respond to that, suffice to say, we can both recuse ourselves from the debate but let's do it respectfully eh?

Nothing personal, UKBloke, that's just my honest opinion. I always speak my mind and am upfront with those I talk to.

This is pointless, though, you are correct. Let's move on now before we do everyone's heads in.

 

[PeteJ]

@UKBloke, I read your post about your young family member being harmed by a vaccine. Sorry to hear that. I was wondering if you read about the Pfizer trials on 12-year-olds.

That info is easy to find.

Pfizer will start testing its coronavirus vaccine on children as young as 12, a crucial step to bringing the shot to more people

These vaccine/Pharma companies are evil, make no mistake about it.

It's unbelievable.

Will Kids Get A COVID-19 Vaccine? Pfizer To Expand Trial To Ages 12 And Up

These "health professionals" are insane. They just don't care.

 

[UKBloke]

Hi @UKBloke -- My sincerest condolences to you and your family. I believe your description of how your family was so traumatised and didn't (couldn't?) pursue a claim is a situation that is FAR more common than most people would ever believe--or even consider. When people have been told for years by medical "authorities" and vaccine proponents that vaccines are "safe and effective", it's understandable.

I've been perusing ME/CFS forums for many years, and there are many reports of people becoming very, very ill right after getting a vaccination, and remain ill for years on end. From those vaccines that are required for college entrance, to those required for overseas travel, HPV vaccines (very bad), even flu vaccines, and many more. Yet the medical authorities continue to say all vaccines are safe and effective.

They then (usually condescendingly) trumpet the classical statistical fallacy, "correlation is not causation". While this broad assertion is technically true, it's very often misleading. It doesn't take into account that correlation is often all you have as a (compelling) starting point for new avenues of scientific query. But so very often the reason many valid areas of scientific research don't gain traction is there are vested financial interests intent on preventing that.

All the best to your and your family...

Thanks for these words, Lane, they mean a lot. The person in question is family on my wife's side. The event was nearly twenty years ago and I daresay with all the adaptations they've had to make I think they'd just prefer to leave things as they are.

Like you say, the vaccine debate is multi-factorial and can get quite heated. Regarding vaccine injury, my belief is that the numbers are still quite low, but certainly the idea of injury seems to me an abstraction to people until it's not, by which time unfortunately it can be too late if the reaction is severe enough. I'm not sure what the answer is...

 

[UKBloke]

@UKBloke, I read your post about your young family member being harmed by a vaccine. Sorry to hear that. I was wondering if you read about the Pfizer trials on 12-year-olds.

That info is easy to find.

Pfizer will start testing its coronavirus vaccine on children as young as 12, a crucial step to bringing the shot to more people

These vaccine/Pharma companies are evil, make no mistake about it.

It's unbelievable.

Will Kids Get A COVID-19 Vaccine? Pfizer To Expand Trial To Ages 12 And Up

These "health professionals" are insane. They just don't care.

It doesn't surprise me to be honest, Pete. Mike Yeadon said a while ago that we should only vaccinate the vulnerable. Are there health-vulnerable 12-year-olds that fit that criteria? God knows...

 

[linearb]

@UKBloke, I am sorry someone in your family was injured by a vaccine; I don't dispute this happens, it's something I've spent a lot of time researching. As far as I can tell, the diseases we routinely vaccinate against, caused vastly more pain and suffering and mortality, than the relatively uncommon serious side effects to vaccines which do occur. So, it is complicated, because it's essentially taking a very small personal risk, to both prevent a larger personal risk (in the case where a disease is running rampant), or continue to help society overall maintain safety (in the case where a disease has been basically eradicated by vaccination). There's also tremendous technological and QA differences between the Simian Virus laced polio vaccines, MMR vaccines from the 1980s, and mRNA vaccines that encode for a single protein. The latter is not really comparable to the former in any way, it is comparing a space shuttle to a horse-driven wagon; the technologies are completely different, so the safety profiles and concerns take completely different forms. You're not going to get a monkey virus from a mRNA jab.

I'll continue to follow the science, because I think it's interesting. As far as "on the ground", I will continue to believe what I am reading weekly in the latest peer-reviewed whitepapers with a lot less incredulousness, than anything I read in the MSM or on forums... and I continue to see basic parity between what is being reported from primary sources on the ground, and the general direction of the MSM narrative. However, the MSM is universally terrible at reporting on science; always go back and read whatever paper the journalist read before accepting their analysis.

Beyond that -- you seem very interested in COVID-19 and policy, and this has forced me to realize, that I am not, at least not to nearly the same degree. I'm in the woods, it's easy for me to isolate, this situation has our childcare situation and our other income streams screwed up, but we can basically keep rolling with the punches in the current situation unless it consumes my job. If that happens, then I either have to find another one within a few months, or we rent this place out to some COVID-19-dodging NYCer and live with my parents until the dust settles. I realize this means I'm in a better situation than a lot of people are, but the realities of my day to day life are still being made incredibly difficult and stressful by COVID-19. That's "fine", though; we're in a pandemic. I can't effect policy changes, so, other than generally being in favor of mask mandates, and personally having no interest in patronizing indoor businesses or having friends inside my house until this is all over... I don't care very much. I don't believe that most western lockdowns have been highly effective; I also don't believe they have, overall, been more destructive than the virus itself, and even if I'm wrong about that I don't actually care very much, because being right or wrong about that doesn't impact my life very much.

You asked about intellectual laziness, and I believe we have just found a perimeter of mine. There are aspects of this, especially the social and policy oriented bits, that you just seem to have a lot more invested in than I do. I do not, by a long shot, agree with much what you wrote (your point #3 would be the place I would start to protest, were I interested in continuing this as an argument), but I feel that I'm never going to agree with you, nor am I likely to change your views, so we've probably hit the point where we should just wish each other the best with our tinnitus and situations.

Good luck with your tinnitus, and I hope that both of our governments find better science-based paths towards addressing COVID-19.

 

[Ed209]

Right, now that we're all mates again, let's leave this thread and never speak of it again

 

[PeteJ]

It doesn't surprise me to be honest, Pete. Mike Yeadon said a while ago that we should only vaccinate the vulnerable. Are there health-vulnerable 12-year-olds that fit that criteria? God knows...

Yep. Do 12 year-olds have poor immune systems? It's crazy but no one cares.

Everyone ignores that these are still experimental vaccines. They haven't been around for long in their final form. The alarming side effects are being downplayed.

The other problem if people don't care about those two points is these kids don't have much of a say and will be brainwashed to take them.

 

[linearb]

Right, now that we're all mates again, let's leave this thread and never speak of it again

But there's so much good news to be shared still.

Cognitive deficits in people who have recovered from COVID-19 relative to controls: An N=84,285 online study

It's a preprint so treat with caution but it's just another thing on the pile pointing to a strong correlation between COVID-19 infection and mental decline.

 

[UKBloke]

@UKBloke, I am sorry someone in your family was injured by a vaccine; I don't dispute this happens, it's something I've spent a lot of time researching. As far as I can tell, the diseases we routinely vaccinate against, caused vastly more pain and suffering and mortality, than the relatively uncommon serious side effects to vaccines which do occur. So, it is complicated, because it's essentially taking a very small personal risk, to both prevent a larger personal risk (in the case where a disease is running rampant), or continue to help society overall maintain safety (in the case where a disease has been basically eradicated by vaccination). There's also tremendous technological and QA differences between the Simian Virus laced polio vaccines, MMR vaccines from the 1980s, and mRNA vaccines that encode for a single protein. The latter is not really comparable to the former in any way, it is comparing a space shuttle to a horse-driven wagon; the technologies are completely different, so the safety profiles and concerns take completely different forms. You're not going to get a monkey virus from a mRNA jab.

I'll continue to follow the science, because I think it's interesting. As far as "on the ground", I will continue to believe what I am reading weekly in the latest peer-reviewed whitepapers with a lot less incredulousness, than anything I read in the MSM or on forums... and I continue to see basic parity between what is being reported from primary sources on the ground, and the general direction of the MSM narrative. However, the MSM is universally terrible at reporting on science; always go back and read whatever paper the journalist read before accepting their analysis.

Beyond that -- you seem very interested in COVID-19 and policy, and this has forced me to realize, that I am not, at least not to nearly the same degree. I'm in the woods, it's easy for me to isolate, this situation has our childcare situation and our other income streams screwed up, but we can basically keep rolling with the punches in the current situation unless it consumes my job. If that happens, then I either have to find another one within a few months, or we rent this place out to some COVID-19-dodging NYCer and live with my parents until the dust settles. I realize this means I'm in a better situation than a lot of people are, but the realities of my day to day life are still being made incredibly difficult and stressful by COVID-19. That's "fine", though; we're in a pandemic. I can't effect policy changes, so, other than generally being in favor of mask mandates, and personally having no interest in patronizing indoor businesses or having friends inside my house until this is all over... I don't care very much. I don't believe that most western lockdowns have been highly effective; I also don't believe they have, overall, been more destructive than the virus itself, and even if I'm wrong about that I don't actually care very much, because being right or wrong about that doesn't impact my life very much.

You asked about intellectual laziness, and I believe we have just found a perimeter of mine. There are aspects of this, especially the social and policy oriented bits, that you just seem to have a lot more invested in than I do. I do not, by a long shot, agree with much what you wrote (your point #3 would be the place I would start to protest, were I interested in continuing this as an argument), but I feel that I'm never going to agree with you, nor am I likely to change your views, so we've probably hit the point where we should just wish each other the best with our tinnitus and situations.

Good luck with your tinnitus, and I hope that both of our governments find better science-based paths towards addressing COVID-19.

Since reading a lot of your posts I've often thought that if you and I met we'd probably get on quite well. I think I understood that when I started reading about the weed and psychedelics and whatnot. I came up through the Acid House period in Manchester, England during the 80's (start to finish), and that was a very psychedelic era as you can imagine. And the music was incredible.

One of the things that hit me hard during the panic of 2020 was the memory of the AIDS epidemic that was in full blown global madness around the time that I was going out regularly in Manchester. I'm sure there are others here like me who remember that period and our media's handling of it. Pre Internet and it was all "Gay Plague" and this kind of thing with the TV every night running Kubrickian style adverts with low-angle shot of a giant monolith and kettle drums playing. The hysteria was almost palpable, and there was a LOT of prejudice that seemed like it would never end until out of nowhere Princess Diana started hugging late-stage AIDS victims.

I hope we get a similar breakthrough moment here because god knows we need it. I think the science on both sides is developing and if anything my hope is that the opponents don't become too polarised because with the current situation, as in much in life, I believe the solution lies somewhere in the middle. I hope you and yours are enjoying the snow. I'm jealous! I used to ski in the Alps but the knees started grinding so I had to stop. That said, me and the missus do plan going back there some day. I was always happiest being out on the mountain.

 

[Ed209]

But there's so much good news to be shared still.

View attachment 43031

View attachment 43032

Cognitive deficits in people who have recovered from COVID-19 relative to controls: An N=84,285 online study

It's a preprint so treat with caution but it's just another thing on the pile pointing to a strong correlation between COVID-19 infection and mental decline.

I was only just talking about this a couple of days ago with my mom. She said that she thinks COVID-19 has caused a mental decline in her, because she keeps forgetting things and is getting confused a lot. I told her to play Zelda again, her favourite game, as there's evidence that gaming can help.

The fact she plays games still makes me smile. I remember when we were growing up how she would always say, "I dunno how you can sit playing those games." Then one day when I was about 13, she said something again, so I told her that if I showed her how to play it, she'd understand why it's so good. The game I was playing was Goldeneye. She didn't believe me, but was up for giving it a go. Fast forward a few hours and I regretted my decision, as my brother and I couldn't get her off our N64 . She beat my brother's friend on Mario Kart and everyone ripped on him, it was hilarious. One day she started playing Zelda: Ocarina of Time, and she fell in love with it. It's her favourite game. She has the new Zelda and the Windwaker as well.

 

[Zugzug]

But there's so much good news to be shared still.

View attachment 43031

View attachment 43032

Cognitive deficits in people who have recovered from COVID-19 relative to controls: An N=84,285 online study

It's a preprint so treat with caution but it's just another thing on the pile pointing to a strong correlation between COVID-19 infection and mental decline.

For the anxiety part, it would be interesting to break it down by groups based on anxiety before getting COVID-19.

For the people who didn't worry about it before getting it, it could reveal how much the virus changed their views. Or it could show the virus was less than they expected.

The flu, though less lethal, is not talked about in the same way. It would be interesting to see the same graph but with the changes in biological markers caused by the virus being isolated.

The other stuff, like memory problems, I do not think is subject to the same standard.

Also, I have to believe that lockdowns, financial anxiety, etc. generate a global positive slope for anxiety and other psychiatric co-morbidities.

I guess they make a remark that the data was chosen from people who didn't have psychiatric problems beforehand. Hence, the justification for starting at 0% at time 0. Even so, the unknowns of COVID-19 have to be scarier than the unknowns of the flu, which are never talked about.

I'm not saying it's impossible that COVID-19 didn't cause the anxiety directly, but there's a wide range of beliefs about the virus that need to be accounted for in this group.

 

[david c]

@linearb

1. I believe a dominant virus called SARS-CoV-2 did the rounds in 2020
2. I believe the virus can cause a disease that is being referred to as COVID-19
3. I believe that >99% of people who develop COVID-19 will survive it
4. I believe that the test known as PCR, which is critical in a COVID-19 diagnosis has and is being misused
5. I believe the cost of government COVID-19 policy in the UK far outweighs the benefit

As someone living in the UK, witnessing the death of 100,000 of my fellow citizens with COVID-19, I have to stress that it's not about what one person "believes", but their level of expertise in the particular field they are discussing and their overall level of education and understanding of critical thinking.

As you have said yourself you have no expertise in this area at all. As you yourself said: "I don't feel qualified to fully understand the science".
I'm not sure what your overall level of education has been.

You have, however, started to try to research this subject yourself but have sadly fallen for fairly elementary confirmation bias. That is, you started off your "research" with a serious of strong beliefs and emotions: You are extremely angry that your business has been affected by COVID-19 restrictions and you think the danger of COVID-19 is being hugely exaggerated. You also have a strong personal bias against vaccines based on an incident with an MMR vaccine which you believe was the cause of damage to a family member.

You then set off to find sources which supported your viewpoint without the level of expertise or the critical skills to evaluate their reliability and authoritativeness. As I say, a classic example of confirmation bias.

 

[dan]

Yes, you can still get infected with COVID-19 after being vaccinated. Here's why

Lol. It's baffling how people still believe in this COVID-19 hoax. With all the many examples on how absurd it all is...

Oh well.

That's because even people who are themselves immune to the virus might be exposed to it and transmit it to others. It can grow in the nose, says Fauci, director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases.

"It's possible that someone could get the vaccine but could still be an asymptomatic carrier," said CNN Medical Analyst Dr. Leana Wen, an emergency physician. "They may not show symptoms, but they have the virus in their nasal passageway so that if they're speaking, breathing, sneezing and so on, they can still transmit it to others."​

Huh? How can a virus "grow in the nose"? It's not a bacteria, it needs to infect cells to replicate itself... So if COVID-19 is able to "grow" in a vaccinated person, how is that person immune?

 

[FGG]

That's because even people who are themselves immune to the virus might be exposed to it and transmit it to others. It can grow in the nose, says Fauci, director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases.

"It's possible that someone could get the vaccine but could still be an asymptomatic carrier," said CNN Medical Analyst Dr. Leana Wen, an emergency physician. "They may not show symptoms, but they have the virus in their nasal passageway so that if they're speaking, breathing, sneezing and so on, they can still transmit it to others."​

Huh? How can a virus "grow in the nose"? It's not a bacteria, it needs to infect cells to replicate itself... So if COVID-19 is able to "grow" in a vaccinated person, how is that person immune?

This is just a semantic thing. When they culture viruses, they culture/grow them in cells.

What Fauci seems to be referring to is "asymptomatic carriers" which are not uncommon in the veterinary world so I imagine the same is true for people. If this occurs here, it would be because the virus is still replicating in the cells at a low level at the site of entry (mucus membranes) but the immune system is keeping the virus at these low, asymptomatic levels.

 

[Ed209]

That's because even people who are themselves immune to the virus might be exposed to it and transmit it to others. It can grow in the nose, says Fauci, director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases.

"It's possible that someone could get the vaccine but could still be an asymptomatic carrier," said CNN Medical Analyst Dr. Leana Wen, an emergency physician. "They may not show symptoms, but they have the virus in their nasal passageway so that if they're speaking, breathing, sneezing and so on, they can still transmit it to others."​

Huh? How can a virus "grow in the nose"? It's not a bacteria, it needs to infect cells to replicate itself... So if COVID-19 is able to "grow" in a vaccinated person, how is that person immune?

Dan, it boils down to how fast one's immune response is. The Pfizer vaccine only stops the person who has had it from becoming seriously ill, it doesn't necessarily stop them from becoming infectious and from spreading it to others. This is why they tell everyone to continue wearing masks.

 

[UKBloke]

If you're going to talk about confirmation bias you need to remove it from your own writing. You have not been "witnessing" the death of 100,000 of your fellow citizens. Neither have I.

Regarding overall education level, put is this way, I don't have a PhD. But I don't think that should exclude me from asking questions along the lines of the Socratic principle, do you?

I feel I've been clear enough from the beginning of this discussion that I'm not contributing to try and change anybody's views. I'm putting on the record the fact that there is an alternative group (a huge one now quite frankly) of experts in their field that flatly disagree with both what our government advisors are stating and the resulting government policy.

If we could witness a public debate between Sir Patrick Vallance and Dr. Mike Yeadon that resulted in Yeadon ceding much of his current position to Vallance, I'd be willing to change my perspective. That debate is never going to happen. But the crushing policies that Vallance's statements are driving remain in place. I make ZERO apologies for being angry about that and empathetic towards my fellow citizens affected.

Finally though, you're not really here to be constructive are you? You're here to snipe:

You are extremely angry that your business has been affected by COVID-19 restrictions

If you're going to snipe, stick to facts:

I'm self-employed too. This year my business has not suffered

I don't mind robust debate. I have a real problem with traducers.

 

[Ed209]

A man in the UK snook into a COVID-19 ward, without a mask, and tried to remove a seriously ill elderly relative. The video below is pretty disturbing and clearly shows why fake news is so dangerous. It's no longer just a case of conspiracy theorists chanting outside of hospitals; some are now going inside to remove patients, and this isn't an isolated incident.

These people are misinformed and delusional. They do not understand any of the science, but that doesn't stop them from harassing nurses and doctors across the country. They talk as if their knowledge and understanding of the situation is far superior to those who deal with it every day because they've looked on Google. This shit needs to stop! Seriously, what is the world coming to?

Watch all of this:



It honestly infuriates me how dumb people can be.

There have also been reports that someone tried to bomb a vaccine plant in Wales.

I showed that video to two friends, and this was their response:

This is the unfortunate reality of the situation. Because of fake news, some people still don't believe it's real even though two of their colleagues are in a coma. The one doing the rapid tests, above, was also a non-believer until his boss died and then his workmates ended up in comas. It reminds me of that George Orwell quote that @Jack V posted:

"Intellectually, it is possible to carry on this process for an indefinite time: the only check on it is that sooner or later a false belief bumps up against solid reality, usually on a battlefield."