Denver Man Gets Gene Therapy to Restore Hearing

[jeff W]

Wow I've finally found someone on this forum who is as worried about repairing their inner ear neurons as I am! So you think you've damaged the neurons of your inner ear and not the hair cells?

I am not sure, nobody is, the ear cannot be imaged properly, too many liquids with differing viscosity to get useful visual clues, imaging the ear is like putting a jelly baby inside a kinder egg and placing it inside a bottle of water and submerging it in a swimming pool then using sonar to look inside. I am sure my hair cells are a bit fucked too, so in that regard its not like I would refuse any therapy that may regenerate them. There is some theory that the health of the body overall is indicative of the health of the ear nerves (i dont really believe that) just putting it out there. The problem with the vestibular nerve is that you cannot get action potentials off it easily. Surgically its probably easier to enter the brain then the vestibular nerve.

 

[Nick Pyzik]

I am not sure, nobody is, the ear cannot be imaged properly, too many liquids with differing viscosity to get useful visual clues, imaging the ear is like putting a jelly baby inside a kinder egg and placing it inside a bottle of water and submerging it in a swimming pool then using sonar to look inside. I am sure my hair cells are a bit fucked too, so in that regard its not like I would refuse any therapy that may regenerate them. There is some theory that the health of the body overall is indicative of the health of the ear nerves (i dont really believe that) just putting it out there. The problem with the vestibular nerve is that you cannot get action potentials off it easily. Surgically its probably easier to enter the brain then the vestibular nerve.

Who told you that you've damaged the vestibular nerve? If you've damaged your hearing from noise then there are only two mechanisms of the inner ear that can be damaged. The hair cells or the auditory nerve fibers/spiral ganglion nuerons.

 

[jeff W]

Who told you that you've damaged the vestibular nerve? If you've damaged your hearing from noise then there are only two mechanisms of the inner ear that can be damaged. The hair cells or the auditory nerve fibers/spiral ganglion nuerons.

I dont know if thats entirely accurate.
I had tests performed, the nerve is no longer sending signals from the horizontal canal, its toast.

 

[jdjd09]

yes, I am interested in this nerve because mine is broken. Why else. I want to cheat my suffering and recover. The inner ear neurons DO NOT REGENERATE after injury like the nerves in the arms and legs. We need to intervene mechanically. People on here have no idea how big this Staecker trial really is, even if Genvec fails, I dont really care, gene therapy is mickey mouse compared to the power of es progenitors delivered into the ear, now (thanks to Staecker) we have a delivery system, bring on Rivolta model and then lets see what the japanese can do with their own payloads. We will be able to repair ALL the cells of the ear, not just one.

Isn't the staeker trials and Novartis/Genvec the same trials? Or are they different? I'm confused. If they are different, when we Staeker's trials end and will there be something on the market afterwords for it?

 

[Aaron123]

Isn't the staeker trials and Novartis/Genvec the same trials?

Same.

 

[jdjd09]

Same.

So, if it's the same, then why is the quotes text saying they are different? Or am I misunderstanding what is being written?

 

[jeff W]

So, if it's the same, then why is the quotes text saying they are different? Or am I misunderstanding what is being written?

I could have worded it better, Staecker/Genvec/Novartis same thing. I interchanged the subjects to avoid repetition, sorry. I did recently read however than Staecker himself has the patent on the pump device used in the trial.

 

[Silvio Sabo]

Do not think that is an especially good example as there are many drugs out there to treat nausea. Regardless of what causes it

My example was not about if there were any or how many drugs there are to treat it. I merly made an example that tinnitus is a symptom of a number of different issues. Much like nausea.

 

[Nick Pyzik]

I dont know if thats entirely accurate.
I had tests performed, the nerve is no longer sending signals from the horizontal canal, its toast.

What tests did you have performed to find this out?

Both the Outer/Inner Hair Cells and Auditory Nerve Fibers can be damaged. The Nerve Fibers of the Cochlear Nerve are much much much more fragile to noise damage than hair cells. I can link you to a good few studies that have been done showing that noise damages the two and nothing else. Let me know. I've just never read or heard of anyone having a damaged vestibular nerve. The only two and two I could put together for a non working nerve like that is a tumor growing on it. I'm not sure if it's made up of small nerves or big nerves and if sound can interfere with it.

 

[Reinier]

The Nerve Fibers of the Cochlear Nerve are much much much more fragile to noise damage than hair cells.

Did you find this on the internet? Do you think you can find this again? I have read documents that state both can be effected/damaged, but I don't remember reading that hair cells are less prone to damage than nerve fibres.

 

[Zechariah]

Yes, researchers at the University of Kyoto in Japan have discussed in recently published documents online showing just how important it is for stem cells to be transplanted on to damaged glial scars to allow full recovery of damaged neurons in the inner ear to brain connection. They also showed how this would be done as displayed in the picture below and then talked about how a treatment would be done for stem cells to properly be transplanted to the location between the ear and the brain. They stated that they would need to surgically remove the bone behind our ears which would then allow a clear area to get the most out of the procedure.

And also stem cells injected into the spine will have no effect on the ear.....

Full PDF: http://www.pnas.org/content/112/26/E3431.full.pdf

View attachment 9617

I hope that the bone removal isn't done with drills or saws so that the patient will wake up with more severe T because of bone conducted drill/saw noise xD

 

[jeff W]

What tests did you have performed to find this out?

Both the Outer/Inner Hair Cells and Auditory Nerve Fibers can be damaged. The Nerve Fibers of the Cochlear Nerve are much much much more fragile to noise damage than hair cells. I can link you to a good few studies that have been done showing that noise damages the two and nothing else. Let me know. I've just never read or heard of anyone having a damaged vestibular nerve. The only two and two I could put together for a non working nerve like that is a tumor growing on it. I'm not sure if it's made up of small nerves or big nerves and if sound can interfere with it.

"I've just never read or heard of anyone having a damaged vestibular nerve."
There are millions of us.


VEMP, head impulse test, head impulse with goggles, rotary chair and my own common sense, when I move vision horizontally the eye slips because the sideways correction is gone (there are 100's of texts on VOR after vestibular injury).
Here is one from the leading authority on stupidity in vestibular research http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3289127/pdf/fneur-03-00021.pdf

The eye moves reflexively to the signals of the vestibular nerve, it is the fastest know reflex in the body.
Avian species use their necks in the same way as we use our eyes to lock their gaze during motion

I spoke once to someone at St@nf0rd and that person presented different theories on this, one theory is that the brain can adapt to any damage less than 20 percent of previous CAPs, that is to say that the nerves in the ear work at very high output (heavy traffic) and that anything less than 80 percent of previous firing rates results in functional deficits. Cocktail party effect is thought to be this 80:20 theory at play. REMEMBER THIS IS ONLY A THEORY. The ear nerve is dynamic, how can the ear be in beside a lawnmower yet still hear a tennis ball bouncing beside it? The nerve is dynamic, its not as straightforward as a cable. One big area where this is talked about a lot is Van De Bergs work using balance prosthetics, the problem of cross talk exists where stimulating one nerve can activate another neighbouring one accidentally, that work is very important as to deal with cross talk they have to make ear damage animal models to discover the secrets of nerve viii. Raymond Van De Berg if you read this, many thanks for your attempts to help us sir.

Anyway I don't want to hijack this thread, its about Staeckers trial, but I will say this, all men who enter vestibular research fail, the study of human balance and its peripheral organ is a graveyard for scientists who thought that they were clever, and clever IS as clever DOES, so as of 2016 damage to the vestibular organ has no treatment. It is shocking news for the dizzy patient and not easy for clinicians to inform sufferers of this.

 

[jeff W]

I hope that the bone removal isn't done with drills or saws so that the patient will wake up with more severe T because of bone conducted drill/saw noise xD

For that reason I wear ear plugs to the dentist even if only for a check up, apparently dentists suffer a lot from hi freq hearing loss, there are special earplugs now aimed at their profession.

 

[Mithrandir]

Same in Fance, audioprothesists make special ear plugs for dentists protect them at some frequencies.

 

[jeff W]

Same in Fance, audioprothesists make special ear plugs for dentists protect them at some frequencies.

France are always ahead in the care of others. They treat their young with careful respect.

 

[Mithrandir]

France are always ahead in the care of others. They treat their young with careful respect.

I'd like to say that but for T, that's like all the countries...bullshit..I mean, a lot of ENTs are just stupid and give bad advice, because of them my hyperacusis became severe, but now I've found a good ENT & a good neurologist...so hope is like a little rainbow in my heart

 

[jeff W]

I'd like to say that but for T, that's like all the countries...bullshit..I mean, a lot of ENTs are just stupid and give bad advice, because of them my hyperacusis became severe, but now I've found a good ENT & a good neurologist...so hope is like a little rainbow in my heart

I remember walking back from the beach in frejus in 1995 with my "baladeur" listening to alliance ethnik, i was pissed off that I could not turn the volume up as it was a french device with a volume restriction....I shudder when i think of just how clever that warning was, but I did not care, i was young and foolish.

 

[Nick Pyzik]

Did you find this on the internet? Do you think you can find this again? I have read documents that state both can be effected/damaged, but I don't remember reading that hair cells are less prone to damage than nerve fibres.

"I've just never read or heard of anyone having a damaged vestibular nerve."
There are millions of us.


VEMP, head impulse test, head impulse with goggles, rotary chair and my own common sense, when I move vision horizontally the eye slips because the sideways correction is gone (there are 100's of texts on VOR after vestibular injury).
Here is one from the leading authority on stupidity in vestibular research http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3289127/pdf/fneur-03-00021.pdf

The eye moves reflexively to the signals of the vestibular nerve, it is the fastest know reflex in the body.
Avian species use their necks in the same way as we use our eyes to lock their gaze during motion

I spoke once to someone at St@nf0rd and that person presented different theories on this, one theory is that the brain can adapt to any damage less than 20 percent of previous CAPs, that is to say that the nerves in the ear work at very high output (heavy traffic) and that anything less than 80 percent of previous firing rates results in functional deficits. Cocktail party effect is thought to be this 80:20 theory at play. REMEMBER THIS IS ONLY A THEORY. The ear nerve is dynamic, how can the ear be in beside a lawnmower yet still hear a tennis ball bouncing beside it? The nerve is dynamic, its not as straightforward as a cable. One big area where this is talked about a lot is Van De Bergs work using balance prosthetics, the problem of cross talk exists where stimulating one nerve can activate another neighbouring one accidentally, that work is very important as to deal with cross talk they have to make ear damage animal models to discover the secrets of nerve viii. Raymond Van De Berg if you read this, many thanks for your attempts to help us sir.

Anyway I don't want to hijack this thread, its about Staeckers trial, but I will say this, all men who enter vestibular research fail, the study of human balance and its peripheral organ is a graveyard for scientists who thought that they were clever, and clever IS as clever DOES, so as of 2016 damage to the vestibular organ has no treatment. It is shocking news for the dizzy patient and not easy for clinicians to inform sufferers of this.

I don't understand. Are you suffering from hearing loss, processing issues, tinnitus, or balance issues? How is the vestibular nerve damaged? The ability for one to process sounds like you were stating "how can the ear be in beside a lawnmower yet still hear a tennis ball bouncing beside it?" The nerve fibers of the auditory nerve allow this ability for one to fully process and hear the different frequencies of the outer/inner hair cells. I have not read anything of the vestibular being involved in that. The auditory nerves in association with the spiral ganglion neurons that connected the brain to the inner ear are what stimulate the brain and its astoundingly large regions associated with when we "hear" things.

Time and time again I post this article's study and it's so simple yet reveals what causes tinnitus, processing issues, and hidden hearing loss: http://www.tinnitus.org.uk/tinnitus-and-hidden-hearing-loss

I'm sorry if you feel like I'm completely disregarding your interest in the vestibular nerve but I'm just confused as to how you believe it's causing you problems. You're saying your vision is not working correctly when you move your head? Like you sense of time and motion is off?

 

[jeff W]

I don't understand. Are you suffering from hearing loss, processing issues, tinnitus, or balance issues? How is the vestibular nerve damaged? The ability for one to process sounds like you were stating "how can the ear be in beside a lawnmower yet still hear a tennis ball bouncing beside it?" The nerve fibers of the auditory nerve allow this ability for one to fully process and hear the different frequencies of the outer/inner hair cells. I have not read anything of the vestibular being involved in that. The auditory nerves in association with the spiral ganglion neurons that connected the brain to the inner ear are what stimulate the brain and its astoundingly large regions associated with when we "hear" things.

Time and time again I post this article's study and it's so simple yet reveals what causes tinnitus, processing issues, and hidden hearing loss: http://www.tinnitus.org.uk/tinnitus-and-hidden-hearing-loss

I'm sorry if you feel like I'm completely disregarding your interest in the vestibular nerve but I'm just confused as to how you believe it's causing you problems. You're saying your vision is not working correctly when you move your head? Like you sense of time and motion is off?

This conversation is not going anywhere. thank you for your interest though.

 

[Reinier]

The ear nerve is dynamic, how can the ear be in beside a lawnmower yet still hear a tennis ball bouncing beside it? The nerve is dynamic, its not as straightforward as a cable.

I wonder if this explanation from Rockefeller University is relevant why someone with healthy hearing can hear with such high resolution you mentioned.
http://lab.rockefeller.edu/hudspeth/research/Decoding

 

[Nick Pyzik]

Did you find this on the internet? Do you think you can find this again? I have read documents that state both can be effected/damaged, but I don't remember reading that hair cells are less prone to damage than nerve fibres.

Study from 2009 by SC Kujawa and my boy Charles Liberman - "Here we show, using cochlear functional assays and confocal imaging of the inner ear in mouse, that acoustic overexposures causing moderate, but completely reversible, threshold elevation leave cochlear sensory cells intact, but cause acute loss of afferent nerve terminals and delayed degeneration of the cochlear nerve."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2812055/

Clearly, loud noises introduced to an inner ear structure will most likely not damage the hair like cells but degeneration and destruction of the auditory nerve fibers/spiral ganglion neurons will ensue, causing still "hearing" and processing issues for the brain.

1) This is as simplistic as an article can get in explaining how susceptible the nerve fibers are to damage compared to hair cells: http://blogs.scientificamerican.com...all-game-may-cause-permanent-hearing-damage1/ (Once again my boy Charles Liberman comes in clutch.....)

2) I was looking to include another study here but I'm having trouble finding it as I usually have to type in the articles web address from the paper I printed up of it since it's very hard to find through google search. I'll find the article when I get home later.

3) Another simple study displaying the cause of tinnitus, sound processing issues, and "hearing loss": http://www.tinnitus.org.uk/tinnitus-and-hidden-hearing-loss

4) There are many of these articles explaining that headphones will cause loss of a high amount of nerve fibers over time if not used correctly. Sound waves are much more dangerous to the way our brain can process sounds: http://atlantichearingcare.com/earbudsworse-for-your-hearing-than-you-think/








Just saw this document - a bit off topic from your question, but very recent work done: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4740884/

 

[jeff W]

I wonder if this explanation from Rockefeller University is relevant why someone with healthy hearing can hear with such high resolution you mentioned.
http://lab.rockefeller.edu/hudspeth/research/Decoding

That phase locking stuff is fascinating.

 

[Zechariah]

For that reason I wear ear plugs to the dentist even if only for a check up, apparently dentists suffer a lot from hi freq hearing loss, there are special earplugs now aimed at their profession.

Earplugs only worsen the noise inside your head because of bone conduction (as would happen in the case of drillign/sawing your skull).

Hi freq hearing loss is a result of drill noise for years several hours in a day.

 

[Nick Pyzik]

I wonder if this explanation from Rockefeller University is relevant why someone with healthy hearing can hear with such high resolution you mentioned.
http://lab.rockefeller.edu/hudspeth/research/Decoding

I'm going to explain this as simplified as I can:

Sound waves are produced -> sound enters the ear -> the three areas of the inner ear are put into motion -> the sound waves continue on as the ear drum reverberates the sound waves -> the hair cells of the cochlea pick up the distributed sound waves by the frequencies it can distinguish -> from there the afferent/efferent nerves are activated to which hair cells they are associated with -> the mechanical energy is converted into electrical as neurotransmissions unfold (why people can enjoy music as they hear the different frequencies/sounds) ->the brain processes these frequencies that were picked up by the hair cells and are converted to electrical neurotransmitting energy by the auditory nerve fibers -> the more nerve fibers one has connected to the hair cells of the cochlea, the more the brain will be able to enjoy the sound it heard, the better the brain will be able to hear frequencies (the louder the frequency will be heard in the brain), the stronger the emotion will be attached to the sounds it has heard, the stronger the memory will be attached to those sounds, and the more it will affect the brains functions (behavior, thoughts, emotions).

We as humans learn and establish memories in a much more well-founded fashion when we can feel emotions from what is processed and perceived in that moment. Our hearing thoroughly involves strong emotions and vast connections to a majority of our brain which is why we can have the ability to love music so much! But it's not just music that allows us to feel the way we do about situations in our life, it's the mechanisms behind the scenes in our hearing that allow us to enjoy sound the way we do. When these mechanisms are damaged (which they are over time through moderate to severe loud noise) we lose these abilities to process life like we did when the brain could before. That's why physical depression, anxiety, stress starts to become involved in our lives unless you were born with these sort of things and never experienced happiness when you were developing as a young child.

We only view life by what the brain can process and perceive. The brain loses neurons and makes new neurons as we age and live our lives. If we don't have the correct functioning abilities to process life with our senses, then the brain will not be making the amount of neurons it needs to and will be losing more than it can gain. Hearing allows us to make emotional memories and learn like none other. More than our visual sense, more than our sense of smell, more than our sense of touch, and more than our sense of taste. The actual neurotransmitters of learning, memory, and emotion are directly associated with our brain's "hearing abilities". Hair cells are not what allow us to conduct these neurotransmitters and hear frequencies more clearly and louder, it's the neurons of the auditory nerve.

I hate how deeply I have to think about all this but it's needed to discover the hidden truth.

Seriously look at how much of the brain is used with hearing. If the mechanisms of our "hearing" can be secretly damaged (not hair cells) through loud noise or just sound over time as we age, then the brain will lose the neurons that allowed such vast connections to the regions displayed in the brain above.

 

[Aaron123]

Is there any change of returning this thread to discussion of the Genvec trial? Folks can always start a new thread to discuss other things.

 

[Mithrandir]

I remember walking back from the beach in frejus in 1995 with my "baladeur" listening to alliance ethnik, i was pissed off that I could not turn the volume up as it was a french device with a volume restriction....I shudder when i think of just how clever that warning was, but I did not care, i was young and foolish.

Yes that's european law with control of volume...I spent some wonderful summer in Frejus too !

 

[Zorro!]

This conversation is not going anywhere. thank you for your interest though.

 

[Nick Pyzik]

View attachment 9624

Yes, I feel like I've been left without enough information on what was being explained to me. Although the Vestibular Nerve's functions and the troubles it can cause one were talked about, I still wasn't able to get some of my questions answered by Jeff. It's okay though.

 

[Reinier]

it's the mechanisms behind the scenes in our hearing that allow us to enjoy sound the way we do.

Yes I relate to that. I used to enjoy simple sounds. Not only music.

Is there any change of returning this thread to discussion of the Genvec trial? Folks can always start a new thread to discuss other things.

I enjoyed the discussion but understand that we should not deviate too much/long. Thank you all.

 

[mintbaby]

What ever happened to Amanda James? The girl that suffered hearing loss after almost drowning in a pool as a toddler, years alter was given KU gene therapy and miraculously starting hearing again? I can't find anything on her after last year?

"Amanda James first noticed a difference early this year when she picked up a pill bottle at the Norfolk, Va., pharmacy where she worked and shook it next to her right ear."