MemberYou answered my very first post on this forum, Dave. I will not forget this.
I can't quite rememberer what that post was Ema, but knowing me, I was probably a bit cheeky?
(Sometimes I save "cheeky" for the second post.)x
Feeling So Very Sad and Hopeless
- Thread starter TracyJS
- Start date
I can't quite rememberer what that post was Ema, but knowing me, I was probably a bit cheeky?
(Sometimes I save "cheeky" for the second post.)x
Well at least one of us has a good memory, lol! You were not at all cheeky, you were very helpful.
https://www.tinnitustalk.com/threads/how-to-stop-grinding-your-teeth.28127/#post-324560
Cheeky is good, though, it makes me laugh!
- Aug 29, 2015
- 7,069
- Tinnitus Since
- 2004
- Cause of Tinnitus
- Meniere's Disease
@TracyJS ,
Sorry to hear your having a tough time with your tinnitus and the low emotions that come with it.
Have a chat with your doctor about medication to find the best one for you and make sure your eating as so easy go off food when low so little and often.
We are here for you.
Try go for walks to help lift your mood also.
Take care duck ....
Love glynis
Sorry to hear your having a tough time with your tinnitus and the low emotions that come with it.
Have a chat with your doctor about medication to find the best one for you and make sure your eating as so easy go off food when low so little and often.
We are here for you.
Try go for walks to help lift your mood also.
Take care duck ....
Love glynis
Just goes to show - I can be quite constructive, when I behave myself.
I hope the soft mouth is getting to be a habit now Ema.
Sharing some fun is also another way to show our affection eh? x
@TracyJS
Tracy, I spend a lot of time reading positive quotes, they help me a great deal. This one in particular, meant a lot to me.
You are brave, Tracy. The fact that you started this thread proves just how brave you are. You have said how shy you are and yet you dug deep and asked for support. This tells me that you want to go on and that you are willing to do whatever it takes to help yourself.
Tomorrow will be better.
Tracy, I spend a lot of time reading positive quotes, they help me a great deal. This one in particular, meant a lot to me.
You are brave, Tracy. The fact that you started this thread proves just how brave you are. You have said how shy you are and yet you dug deep and asked for support. This tells me that you want to go on and that you are willing to do whatever it takes to help yourself.
Tomorrow will be better.
Hello Tracy,
I'm quite new to this whole affair myself, but cannot help giving a few words of encouragement myself.
You mention getting new tones and notice things changing up since the initial onset and this is currently causing you distress. This rings true (pardon the pun) to me very much. I've had it for a comparable amount of time and have had changes as well, the latest of which haven't been treating me too well either. Though, I'm currently trying not too read too much into them and seeing the different tones as a sort of 'package' (not the kind you get under the X-mas tree of course), that only as a whole is to be taken into account. Then I assess how much this package is weighing me down and then I try to let it get to me less each day. Naturally, I've also taken to protecting my ears diligently. Easier said than done, with more than a few hiccups along the way, but the end game is worth it. There are plenty of people on here that serve as an excellent example of mental fortitude in, at first, the worst of conditions. I'm gonna try and live up to that example.
Reading the positivity and good advice that is being spread here on a daily basis bring me good vibes, even in these times. I'm glad to see this forum bring the same to you and I hope we will both be making steps forward in the (not so soon) future!
All the best to you.
I'm quite new to this whole affair myself, but cannot help giving a few words of encouragement myself.
You mention getting new tones and notice things changing up since the initial onset and this is currently causing you distress. This rings true (pardon the pun) to me very much. I've had it for a comparable amount of time and have had changes as well, the latest of which haven't been treating me too well either. Though, I'm currently trying not too read too much into them and seeing the different tones as a sort of 'package' (not the kind you get under the X-mas tree of course), that only as a whole is to be taken into account. Then I assess how much this package is weighing me down and then I try to let it get to me less each day. Naturally, I've also taken to protecting my ears diligently. Easier said than done, with more than a few hiccups along the way, but the end game is worth it. There are plenty of people on here that serve as an excellent example of mental fortitude in, at first, the worst of conditions. I'm gonna try and live up to that example.
Reading the positivity and good advice that is being spread here on a daily basis bring me good vibes, even in these times. I'm glad to see this forum bring the same to you and I hope we will both be making steps forward in the (not so soon) future!
All the best to you.
Mystery Reader
Member
- Apr 24, 2018
- 217
- Tinnitus Since
- 11/2017
- Cause of Tinnitus
- Still Under Investigation
@TracyJS
The feelings you describe are so familiar to me and seem all but textbook in the early stages of t. I still consider myself in the early stages (5 months) and have days when it feels like I have made progress, and days when it feels like I am back to square one. It's part and parcel of this thing. Like the other folks responding on your thread, though, I believe this can get better, and that we can get better at how we handle and perceive it if we can find a way to stay positive about it. It can be trial and error, and takes time. There is wonderful support on this forum, and you seem to have fallen in with an outstanding group of posters in this thread! I hope the rest of your day has gone better for you.
Mystery Reader
The feelings you describe are so familiar to me and seem all but textbook in the early stages of t. I still consider myself in the early stages (5 months) and have days when it feels like I have made progress, and days when it feels like I am back to square one. It's part and parcel of this thing. Like the other folks responding on your thread, though, I believe this can get better, and that we can get better at how we handle and perceive it if we can find a way to stay positive about it. It can be trial and error, and takes time. There is wonderful support on this forum, and you seem to have fallen in with an outstanding group of posters in this thread! I hope the rest of your day has gone better for you.
Mystery Reader
@Mystery Reader
Thank you so much for responding. I have received responses from so many outstanding members, you being one of them.
Hope has always been challenging for me, and never more than with this condition. Thank you for sharing your story with me. I hope you continue to make more and more progress.
Thank you so much for responding. I have received responses from so many outstanding members, you being one of them.
Hope has always been challenging for me, and never more than with this condition. Thank you for sharing your story with me. I hope you continue to make more and more progress.
@Nanny chocolate
Eve,
Yes, so many members have been very generous with me and with others, despite their own struggles.
I hope to be able to do the same.
Thank you, Again.
Eve,
Yes, so many members have been very generous with me and with others, despite their own struggles.
I hope to be able to do the same.
Thank you, Again.
@TracyJS Hi Tracy.
I am only today reading of your struggle.
All the above people and many more including me can walk you through many sides and ways of dealing with this but your courage comes from inside your heart to defeat it.
Courage that you have obviously got .
It takes courage and hope to reach out and to you i say Kudos for doing so.
I was alone completely every day for my first three months and although i have fought schizophrenia all my life this was a serious battle psychologically for me.
I entertained sucicide but that is a no win situation period.
Little by little the time would pass as did my anxiety.
And here i will say i use clonazepam as well without fear or shame.
Hey it works miracles for me.
But we are all different and drugs affect everyone differently.
As Emma pointed out you have a goal to focus on.
By focusing on something else it will calm your anxiety and hopfully in time your T.
I used to be and avid audio enthusiast but the T cut it into shreads until i built up enough strength to reclaim my hobby.
Its all about getting stronger each moment and keeping your eyes on the prize so to speak.
Even since your initial post you have increased your positivity .
Just keep doing that and ask for support at ANYTIME!
I am only today reading of your struggle.
All the above people and many more including me can walk you through many sides and ways of dealing with this but your courage comes from inside your heart to defeat it.
Courage that you have obviously got .
It takes courage and hope to reach out and to you i say Kudos for doing so.
I was alone completely every day for my first three months and although i have fought schizophrenia all my life this was a serious battle psychologically for me.
I entertained sucicide but that is a no win situation period.
Little by little the time would pass as did my anxiety.
And here i will say i use clonazepam as well without fear or shame.
Hey it works miracles for me.
But we are all different and drugs affect everyone differently.
As Emma pointed out you have a goal to focus on.
By focusing on something else it will calm your anxiety and hopfully in time your T.
I used to be and avid audio enthusiast but the T cut it into shreads until i built up enough strength to reclaim my hobby.
Its all about getting stronger each moment and keeping your eyes on the prize so to speak.
Even since your initial post you have increased your positivity .
Just keep doing that and ask for support at ANYTIME!
@TracyJS
You have received wonderful and heartfelt support from fellow members, those who have habituated and those who are still facing challenges from T daily. Please ponder over their suggestions as many such suggestions are helpful tips or strategies that they have used to help themselves. Many have walked the talk. There is nothing better to learn from those who have done the actual battle with tinnitus. So I will only add my experiences to see if they can help you.
Firstly, don't need to feel a failure. We are all on different stages of our tinnitus journey. You are probably doing much better than me at 3 months. Why? Because at 3 months, I was heavily depending on drugs just to survive each day. I was taking Ativan (a benzo), Prozac (antidepressant) and sleeping pills just to function amid relentless anxiety and panic attacks due to my decades of prior condition suffering from anxiety and panic disorder and PTSD. Every morning I woke up with the monstrous ringing in full swing, and panic instantly set in on auto mode, and I instantly reached for the sublingual Ativan hoping that it would function to stop the attack. Gosh! I couldn't even have a fair fight against T as it triggered mental attacks on my nerves even when I was barely awake. How do you fight with your enemy with a mind still not fully awake and couldn't think clearly???
That was what I had to deal with for the first 9 months or so. It was a nightmarish existence. Then you add the piercingly hurtful hyperacusis on top of all the attacks and being withdrawn from most social contacts because of that, and yes, I was in full despair mode with dark thoughts constantly for a while. So I understand what you are going through. Don't blame yourself a failure. You can at least afford to decide to taper your medicine at 3 months while I was praying that my meds better work to not just tame my T & H, but to help cut back the number of mental attacks I had to endure each day.
Yes,it takes time to get to a better place. I took 3 years before writing my success story. I am actually among the dead last to finish the habituation race compared to others in the success stories. Lol.
So take it easy on yourself. Rant all you can and all you want here. This is what this forum is for. We are here and we understand what you are going through. It will get better and the sun will shine again amid this tinnitus darkness. Don't give up hope. Hang in there and educate yourself about how to cope with T along the way. Take good care. God bless.
You have received wonderful and heartfelt support from fellow members, those who have habituated and those who are still facing challenges from T daily. Please ponder over their suggestions as many such suggestions are helpful tips or strategies that they have used to help themselves. Many have walked the talk. There is nothing better to learn from those who have done the actual battle with tinnitus. So I will only add my experiences to see if they can help you.
Firstly, don't need to feel a failure. We are all on different stages of our tinnitus journey. You are probably doing much better than me at 3 months. Why? Because at 3 months, I was heavily depending on drugs just to survive each day. I was taking Ativan (a benzo), Prozac (antidepressant) and sleeping pills just to function amid relentless anxiety and panic attacks due to my decades of prior condition suffering from anxiety and panic disorder and PTSD. Every morning I woke up with the monstrous ringing in full swing, and panic instantly set in on auto mode, and I instantly reached for the sublingual Ativan hoping that it would function to stop the attack. Gosh! I couldn't even have a fair fight against T as it triggered mental attacks on my nerves even when I was barely awake. How do you fight with your enemy with a mind still not fully awake and couldn't think clearly???
That was what I had to deal with for the first 9 months or so. It was a nightmarish existence. Then you add the piercingly hurtful hyperacusis on top of all the attacks and being withdrawn from most social contacts because of that, and yes, I was in full despair mode with dark thoughts constantly for a while. So I understand what you are going through. Don't blame yourself a failure. You can at least afford to decide to taper your medicine at 3 months while I was praying that my meds better work to not just tame my T & H, but to help cut back the number of mental attacks I had to endure each day.
Yes,it takes time to get to a better place. I took 3 years before writing my success story. I am actually among the dead last to finish the habituation race compared to others in the success stories. Lol.
So take it easy on yourself. Rant all you can and all you want here. This is what this forum is for. We are here and we understand what you are going through. It will get better and the sun will shine again amid this tinnitus darkness. Don't give up hope. Hang in there and educate yourself about how to cope with T along the way. Take good care. God bless.
I'm so sorry you're feeling like this.
Like everybody has said previously, no need to apologise in the slightest, that's what this forum is for. You'll find many kind and helpful people here. All I can say is you will have good days and bad, just take it day by day.
Try and keep active, maybe try some light sports, go for a walk, especially when you start to get that anxious feeling like the world is starting to cave in, I find it helps me clear my mind.
All I can say is I've only had this for 4 months and it's been hell, I've had my up and down days..... I find exercising as I said previously helps with my state of mind, didn't cure my T unfortunately but it helps with my overall moods, I like drinking herbal teas and try thinking of things that make you happy, force yourself to smile if you have to and try and trick your brain.
Wish you all the best.
Thank you, @billie48 for your words of support and encouragement.
Yes, it does sound like it was really hell for you those 9 months.
However, don't over credit me regarding tapering off the Clonazepam so soon. That is more out of fear than anything else. I was afraid to take the medication for fear it might make the tinnitus worse, and I'm afraid to continue to take it for the same reason. I'm also afraid taper because the anxiety I was experiencing was excruciating and I'm not sure how it's going to be once I do stop the medication.
Talk to me in a week or two and I might be completely falling apart and wanting the meds again.
I also have a history of severe anxiety/panic so I have some knowing of what you are taking about. And I can say that this has been so much worse.
It sounds like it was a nightmare for you, but I'm so glad that you came through and are doing so much better now.
Thank you, again, for your kindness.
Tracy
Thank you so much for your response. I have read your posts before, and you seemed kind and thoughtful.
Wow, schizophrenia and this was a bigger psychological battle. That's speaks to just how horrific this thing is, particularly perhaps at the beginning. I'm so sorry you were alone for the first three months.
You have shown a lot of courage with this.
In terms of the Clonazepam, I'm not ashamed, but I do have fear. I am a fearful person by nature so I become afraid that somehow the Clonazepam will make things worse. It sounds like that is not a concern for you?
Thank you again for saying that I can ask for support at anytime.
Tracy
@TracyJS, your kindness and gentle nature shine through all your posts. Please be as kind to yourself, as patient and understanding with yourself, as you are with others.
I really can't add much to the great responses that others have written to you, but I do want to emphasize that the first months, maybe even the first year, are definitely a very hard road to walk down for those with intrusive tinnitus. I am a strong person by nature, but I cried a lot in the first six months, thinking that I could never survive this, despite having survived several traumatic events and situations in my life. Tinnitus is a totally different beast, (or demon as shown in @emmalee's post).
One of the things that gave me comfort at the beginning, and still does four years later, is a Tinnitus Talk post that said, "Your brain will harden to the tinnitus in time." For many of us, along with trying different coping methods, that statement is true.
Take it one minute at a time, one hour at a time, one day at a time. Don't try to forecast the future with tinnitus, as that will only discourage you for now and feed the pessimism. Always be willing to come to Tinnitus Talk and ask for support, for advice, for encouragement, or simply a shoulder to cry on. We have all walked in your shoes.
I really can't add much to the great responses that others have written to you, but I do want to emphasize that the first months, maybe even the first year, are definitely a very hard road to walk down for those with intrusive tinnitus. I am a strong person by nature, but I cried a lot in the first six months, thinking that I could never survive this, despite having survived several traumatic events and situations in my life. Tinnitus is a totally different beast, (or demon as shown in @emmalee's post).
One of the things that gave me comfort at the beginning, and still does four years later, is a Tinnitus Talk post that said, "Your brain will harden to the tinnitus in time." For many of us, along with trying different coping methods, that statement is true.
Take it one minute at a time, one hour at a time, one day at a time. Don't try to forecast the future with tinnitus, as that will only discourage you for now and feed the pessimism. Always be willing to come to Tinnitus Talk and ask for support, for advice, for encouragement, or simply a shoulder to cry on. We have all walked in your shoes.
I would not really shy away from using BENZOs in your position. While some may freak you out that they are addicting , it may be necessary to get you over your desperate time. I would also not worry about it making it worse. BENZOs in general should help as it relaxes muscles not to mention reduces stress (relaxes) which is bad for T.
I would also suggest seeing a therapist sooner rather than later. They can get you on a track to do CBT and DBT and possibly in conjunction with medication (antidepressant and or BENZO). There is no magic here and it will take time but the use of CBT and DBT in coping is proven to work.
I would also make sure that you are doing some physical activity. Go outside and walk for at least 30 mins as this will increase serotonin and produce a better overall mental environment. This is a MUST for anyone dealing with depression. No psychiatrist worth anything would say differently.
Just some of my random suggestions that I have experience with.
I would also suggest seeing a therapist sooner rather than later. They can get you on a track to do CBT and DBT and possibly in conjunction with medication (antidepressant and or BENZO). There is no magic here and it will take time but the use of CBT and DBT in coping is proven to work.
I would also make sure that you are doing some physical activity. Go outside and walk for at least 30 mins as this will increase serotonin and produce a better overall mental environment. This is a MUST for anyone dealing with depression. No psychiatrist worth anything would say differently.
Just some of my random suggestions that I have experience with.
I've never taken benzos or anti-depressants before. I'm not against them, but I have seen my mother go through the mill with those drugs and it makes me very wary of them. I prefer to use exercise and things like shock therapy (swimming in cold water). I just can't bring myself to take a benzo. Even when I had my colonoscopy two weeks ago the sedative they use is a benzo and I declined it. That's just me though. I don't knock people who use them; I just know they can be a nightmare to get off of.
Do what you need to do to get through the acute stress. You will come through the other side of this because you have a beautiful personality that shines through. It makes all the difference. Be kind to yourself and treat yourself to a spa day or two, or twenty
@Cheza
I am deeply touched by the responses of so many people here, including your response. I will try to be as kind toward myself as all of you have been toward me.
Yes, it does seem like the first several months or year are the most difficult. It's been 3 months and it feels like a lifetime. It's hard to imagine my brain could ever harden to tinnitus. I, too, have survived many traumatic situations in my life. And have battled fierce anxiety. But this, as you say, is absolutely a totally different beast.
I will do my best to heed your advice about not looking to far ahead into the future.
Thank you for letting me know it's ok to come here for support or just to let others know I'm in pain. That means more than you could know.
Tracy
I am deeply touched by the responses of so many people here, including your response. I will try to be as kind toward myself as all of you have been toward me.
Yes, it does seem like the first several months or year are the most difficult. It's been 3 months and it feels like a lifetime. It's hard to imagine my brain could ever harden to tinnitus. I, too, have survived many traumatic situations in my life. And have battled fierce anxiety. But this, as you say, is absolutely a totally different beast.
I will do my best to heed your advice about not looking to far ahead into the future.
Thank you for letting me know it's ok to come here for support or just to let others know I'm in pain. That means more than you could know.
Tracy
Yes, we are kindered spirits. I could tell that right a way when I read your posts. I wish Illinois were closer to Canada.
Me too, Tracy.Yes, we are kindered spirits. I could tell that right a way when I read your posts. I wish Illinois were closer to Canada.
We can talk here, in your thread, each day! I can tell you about my day and you can tell me about your day. No working in the garden for me today, I overdid it yesterday. I went for my walk though.
- Jan 20, 2018
- 105
- Tinnitus Since
- Approximately 01/10/2018
- Cause of Tinnitus
- stress/sinus Infection/headphones/maybe antibiotics
@TracyJS
You have received a lot of support already from some of the most wonderful members on this forum.
I'm not a veteran myself, so I may not have the best coping methods, but I am in a similar situation as you, so I figured I would let you know that you are not alone. I am in my third month of battling this condition as well. It's not an easy fight, but we have the capacity within us to beat it, no matter what you may think. I have also relied on benzos (specifically diazepam), as I have another nerve condition that gets a lot better with it. The rule I stuck to was to only save it for the hardest of days, and only maximum of twice per week. I find that if you don't cross the half-life of the benzo you can keep maximum efficiency while not getting addicted. In time, I found that I need it less and less, and now it has been 15 days since I've taken a diazepam.
Don't be sorry for asking for or needing support. I relate to that more than you can think. I took benzos because I didn't want to ask anyone for help when I got to my worst. That's a mistake. Get outside, talk to the ones you love, and talk to the people on here. They all understand your pain and all wish to help you.
I didn't believe it either, but 3 months in and it's starting to slowly get better, even though there are bumps in the road, and when you do hit those bumps, that's when you look up to and ask for help from the shining stars on this forum.
Above all, never feel sorry for feeling bad. You would be crazy to be feeling good in this situation. If you ever need to talk or something, you can message me as well in private conversation. I hope you can take it easy and step by step.
You have received a lot of support already from some of the most wonderful members on this forum.
I'm not a veteran myself, so I may not have the best coping methods, but I am in a similar situation as you, so I figured I would let you know that you are not alone. I am in my third month of battling this condition as well. It's not an easy fight, but we have the capacity within us to beat it, no matter what you may think. I have also relied on benzos (specifically diazepam), as I have another nerve condition that gets a lot better with it. The rule I stuck to was to only save it for the hardest of days, and only maximum of twice per week. I find that if you don't cross the half-life of the benzo you can keep maximum efficiency while not getting addicted. In time, I found that I need it less and less, and now it has been 15 days since I've taken a diazepam.
Don't be sorry for asking for or needing support. I relate to that more than you can think. I took benzos because I didn't want to ask anyone for help when I got to my worst. That's a mistake. Get outside, talk to the ones you love, and talk to the people on here. They all understand your pain and all wish to help you.
I didn't believe it either, but 3 months in and it's starting to slowly get better, even though there are bumps in the road, and when you do hit those bumps, that's when you look up to and ask for help from the shining stars on this forum.
Above all, never feel sorry for feeling bad. You would be crazy to be feeling good in this situation. If you ever need to talk or something, you can message me as well in private conversation. I hope you can take it easy and step by step.
Hey Tracy
I'm so sorry you are going through this and I completely understand how you feel. A few months ago I could have written your post. To be honest I feel unqualified to give advice as I'm still struggling myself, however one thing that has helped me tremendously is taking it one day at a time. I focus on getting through each day, I get way too overwhelmed and feel like giving up if I think about living the rest of my life with tinnitus. My mantra is "just get through today"
Distraction is also a big help to me, I go for a long walk everyday and keep as busy as I can. Tinitus thrives off boredom. I've mentioned this before but another thing I do throughout the day is say to myself "you will get used to this" I repeat it many times! I know in time we will both get used to it, I genuinely mean that. We can do this Tracy!
Feel free to PM me if it gets too much, I'm happy to listen.
Love Holly
I'm so sorry you are going through this and I completely understand how you feel. A few months ago I could have written your post. To be honest I feel unqualified to give advice as I'm still struggling myself, however one thing that has helped me tremendously is taking it one day at a time. I focus on getting through each day, I get way too overwhelmed and feel like giving up if I think about living the rest of my life with tinnitus. My mantra is "just get through today"
Distraction is also a big help to me, I go for a long walk everyday and keep as busy as I can. Tinitus thrives off boredom. I've mentioned this before but another thing I do throughout the day is say to myself "you will get used to this" I repeat it many times! I know in time we will both get used to it, I genuinely mean that. We can do this Tracy!
Feel free to PM me if it gets too much, I'm happy to listen.
Love Holly
@Holly1987
Thank you so much for responding. I am overwhelmed with how kind and generous everyone has been.
Yes, taking it one day at a time seems to be universal. At times it seems like such an impossibility. But when you think about the future and living with tinnitus, that is when the fear, panic, and despair get going. It's awful.
I will try and repeat to myself that I will get use to this. Again, seems like an impossibility. But I will try and hold the hope and support that others, including you, have offered. Thank you for saying that, "we" can get through this.
Love
Tracy
Thank you so much for responding. I am overwhelmed with how kind and generous everyone has been.
Yes, taking it one day at a time seems to be universal. At times it seems like such an impossibility. But when you think about the future and living with tinnitus, that is when the fear, panic, and despair get going. It's awful.
I will try and repeat to myself that I will get use to this. Again, seems like an impossibility. But I will try and hold the hope and support that others, including you, have offered. Thank you for saying that, "we" can get through this.
Love
Tracy
@Daniel95
Your response was very kind. I have received responses from some wonderful people on the forum, and as I said to another member, that includes you, too.
In terms of the Clonazepam, I did start taking it regularly about a week and a half ago. Before that it was about 7-8 times over 3 weeks. I'm starting to taper slowly now because I get concerned about the Benzo somehow making things worse, although I'm worried about how it will go. I know I haven't taken it that long, but still concerned.
Thank you for your empathy and concern. I'm sorry you are having to go through this, too.
And thank you for your offer to PM you if I need to talk.
I will try to take it easy and step by step.
Your response was very kind. I have received responses from some wonderful people on the forum, and as I said to another member, that includes you, too.
In terms of the Clonazepam, I did start taking it regularly about a week and a half ago. Before that it was about 7-8 times over 3 weeks. I'm starting to taper slowly now because I get concerned about the Benzo somehow making things worse, although I'm worried about how it will go. I know I haven't taken it that long, but still concerned.
Thank you for your empathy and concern. I'm sorry you are having to go through this, too.
And thank you for your offer to PM you if I need to talk.
I will try to take it easy and step by step.
Log in or register to get the full forum benefits!
Similar threads
